Sooo, CT ZeRo's initial tier list has Zelda dead last.

[staindgrey]

...and I can't find a valid argument against it.

Here's the list: http://smashboards.com/threads/initial-super-smash-wii-u-tier-list-by-ct-zero.358376/page-4#post-16906454

Zelda - Her moveset lacked strength, speed and range to compete with the other characters. She definitely needs to be changed up a bit.

Tier lists made before the game is even complete are obviously unneeded and purely for spectacle, but this list poses a curious proposal: that Zelda was the worst playable character in the E3 demo. Finished or not, that doesn't bode well for Zelda mains.

Where would you guys place her, based on either first hand experience or video footage?

 

[BJN39]

Honestly, probably on the lower half judging by ONLY what we know so far.

Of course the game is still too early to tell for sure, though.

I wanna elaborate more, but it's too late today. I'll do it tomorrow.

For now, here's what I said in the reply board for his tier list earlier today:

I kind of agree and disagree with Zelda's early thoughts placement.

Yeah, she's certainly not getting the necessary treatment to be "up there" good, but her attacks certainly don't lack power, speed, or range. It's true most of them don't have all of those qualities, though.

There have also been a bunch of little things I've found that will help her some. Like FW is buffed nicely in multiple aspects, (The reappear can KO if you directly hit the opponent, it now auto-snaps ledges mid-invisi-travel, faster disappearing animation.) Her mobility is nicer, (Bigger 2nd jump, faster running.) her grab is faster and Bthrow seems to be as powerful as Kirby's Uthrow. There are more things, too!

Let's just not count her out just yet.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I wouldn't pay much attention to a list made by someone who doesn't use Zelda and listed characters as middle because he couldn't get a good impression of them.

Also, we didn't really get to see too much about Zelda . only time and first-hand experience will tell how good every character is.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

Whether or not she's low-tier, she's definitely boring...

 

[Katy Parry]

I wouldn't pay much attention to a list made by someone who doesn't use Zelda and listed characters as middle because he couldn't get a good impression of them.

Also, we didn't really get to see too much about Zelda . only time and first-hand experience will tell how good every character is.

exactly.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

My brother got to use Zelda and he said she was the same as brawl. Nothing really changed at all except she had a dins fire nerf and added a phantom as her down b.

 

[Katy Parry]

My brother got to use Zelda and he said she was the same as brawl. Nothing really changed at all except she had a dins fire nerf and added a phantom as her down b.

I used Zelda myself (2 times on Wii U, once on 3DS) and that's far from the truth: I even recorded a gameplay video to analyze.

Zelda is not Brawl Zelda at all.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Did anyone get to use her tilts? Her Utilt seemed amazing, maybe her Ftilt was buffed, too?

 

[Katy Parry]

Did anyone get to use her tilts? Her Utilt seemed amazing, maybe her Ftilt was buffed, too?

I did. You can see them in my video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs-ObbYeN_w

I was able to combo upsmash into uptilt, and I'm sure I could have done more if I had actually focused on what I was doing.

I had never played Smash with a Wii U Pro controller before, and so my muscle memory for the last 13 years was thrown off. Since the buttons and stick are switched on the right side, I made several mistakes. I actually do most of my aerials with the CStick. So it was a hard adjustment.

Her filt has much more horizontal knockback, which was insanely impressive, compared to how it normally doesn't.

 

[SadisticPanda]

This is completely out of the question, but did anyone see her alternate colours? I watched the Nintendo Treehouse and they used her default every time and didn't even cycle through them. If anyone has her official colour swaps, please let me know.

 

[rpgcaster]

While this is disappointing news, maybe this could be changed? It's possible that rebalancing could have been one of the reasons Sakurai was onboard for the invitational. So given this, we might see Zelda buffed, who knows? (Though, I don't want a Kirby nerf D: )

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

This is completely out of the question, but did anyone see her alternate colours? I watched the Nintendo Treehouse and they used her default every time and didn't even cycle through them. If anyone has her official colour swaps, please let me know.

We saw Brawl's red and blue colors, and a new one, probably a reference to Spirit Tracks. It's similar to the normal one, but the dress is purple instead of pink, and the hair seems to be that kind of weird blonde/greenish hair, typical of Toon Zelda. (I not really sure, because I saw that on off screen video).



By the way, this tier doesn't mean really much. If I start making a tier list for Brawl, I would certainly give Olimar and bad ranking, and we all know he is not bad. I'm just not good at all with him.
We have to wait for the release of the game, before jumping to conclusion. The game is still subject to changes.

 

[Ixbran]

this is one of the reasons I think competitive smash is so stupid. They (competitive gamers) have to over analyze and break down everything to make sure its all 'competitive' worthy. I personally hate Tier lists, simply because the sheep who are into this sort of thing will instantly flock to characters who are high tier, and only use them, just for the sake of being better than everyone else.

 

[staindgrey]

this is one of the reasons I think competitive smash is so stupid. They (competitive gamers) have to over analyze and break down everything to make sure its all 'competitive' worthy. I personally hate Tier lists, simply because the sheep who are into this sort of thing will instantly flock to characters who are high tier, and only use them, just for the sake of being better than everyone else.

That's an issue within all competitive communities, whether it's for Smash, Street Fighter or just watching the NFL. People like to dissect matchups and talk smack. That's why ESPN can have three whole 24hr. sports news channels.

Regardless of one's opinion of a tier list, it's made for a reason, and oftentimes these early tier lists, flawed as they may be, can offer insight into the current balance of the game. No, picking a higher tiered character doesn't guarantee a win, but tier placement is often indicative of one's chances for winning. There were very good reasons for Metaknight being at the top of Brawl's tier list while Link, Falcon and Ganon crowded the bottom.

That, and it's just fun to talk about. If this topic of conversation isn't for you, maybe it would be best if you go to other topics instead.

 

[Alacion]

this is one of the reasons I think competitive smash is so stupid. They (competitive gamers) have to over analyze and break down everything to make sure its all 'competitive' worthy. I personally hate Tier lists, simply because the sheep who are into this sort of thing will instantly flock to characters who are high tier, and only use them, just for the sake of being better than everyone else.

Lol Smashboards is the home of all competitive players. Not sure why you would post in any character forum and expect non-competitive discussion unless it's the social thread. You might feel more at home at GameFAQs.

Obviously COMPETITIVE players want to see if Smash 4 will be "COMPETITIVE" worthy.

In competitive ANYTHING, you play to win. You play and practise to be better than everyone else. If you were 100% competitive, you'd drop Zelda and play a top tier. If anything, you guys should be a bit more open to competitive Zeldas' input because they know more than anyone what is wrong with her and what needs to be done to change the character for the better.

Competitive players have put thousands of dollars, years, and their lives for this game. How could you expect people on Smashboards to do anything else? Not sure why you'd bash on things without seeing things on the other side.

If you want Zelda to rise up in the tier list, better start practising now take down notables before saying "Oh, I think Zelda has so much potential and is really underrated." People have been saying it for years but unless multiple people prove a character, nothing will really change. For example, Cosmo placing 2nd in a major Midwest tournament with over 100 people didn't do the character any favours because people suspect it's the player and not the character.

 

[ZombieBran]

People who think Zelda is the same as in Brawl are probably not Zelda mains.

Overall, I'd say she was slightly buffed. DK was very buffed, however, and he's far better than she is in Brawl so I worry that Sakurai's testers just plain suck at fighting Zelda (and thus, basic spot dodging).

And why why why are her smashes still escapable? More importantly, how?! SDI has apparently become much harder across the board. And yet we have cases of people, who are not even trying to SDI, escaping her smashes with only 4-5% gained.

I think everyone can agree that Zelda is not up to par. Whether she's the very worst of the demo characters, I don't know (and neither does ZeRo) but she certainly needs drastic buffs before the game rolls out.

ffs, please make Zelda viable for once, Sakurai

 

[Alacion]

I dunno I play Zelda in both Melee and Brawl competitively and Zelda in Smash 4 plays very much like her Brawl counterpart when I played her in the demo.

 

[M@v]

sooooooo you're listening to tier lists made from a demo that's months from completion, and a game even zero has gotten less than a day of playtime in tops on because.......

 

[staindgrey]

sooooooo you're listening to tier lists made from a demo that's months from completion, and a game even zero has gotten less than a day of playtime in tops on because.......

It's fun.

 

[BJN39]

It gives us something to talk about, too.

We like to talk.

 

[Alacion]

Do people say things like "why are you discussing a tier list so early" to feel self-righteous?

Not really anybody's place to say what we should and should not talk about.

 

[ZombieBran]

In addition to discussion being interesting, it gives us the impression one of the top Brawl players got from Zelda. Surely that says something about Zelda right now, whether the tier list is anywhere near accurate or not.

 

[FooltheFlames]

she needs more buffs!
so does Link!
Suckerrai is so jealous of the Zelda series greatness compared to his wimpy metaknights he goes picks on it's characters to make himself feel better

 

[Ultinarok]

she needs more buffs!
so does Link!
Suckerrai is so jealous of the Zelda series greatness compared to his wimpy metaknights he goes picks on it's characters to make himself feel better

Not sure that's how it works...Sakurai was a Ganondorf main in Brawl, and initially everyone thought Zelda was high tier in Brawl until her grave weaknesses showed themselves. So I oppose the whole Zelda series worth of characters being better than Kirby in Melee by a significant margin (Kirby being literally the worst character) is also intentional? Sakurai isn't biased against the Zelda series, he just made all of them play heavy and strong in Brawl, not realizing that it would cripple them against other fighters. Not to mention, Link is buffed a lot in Smash 4.

That said, Zelda could use some buffs. Her playstyle never does her any favors competitively, but she should at least be more viable.

 

[ZombieBran]

initially everyone thought Zelda was high tier in Brawl until her grave weaknesses showed themselves.

Zelda was never seriously considered high tier in Brawl. Around release, some considered her mid tier. But that's as high as she got, sadly.

You may be thinking of Melee, during the time where rolls were everything. She was 6th in the first Melee tier list.

 

[Ryan.]

Why she is getting nerfed in some areas, like her up tilt, is beyond me. She needs buffs. I appreciate all the work Sakurai and his team does with balancing but with Zelda it's just not happening. She needs to get out of low tier.

Not that this list matters yet since we have yet to see all the characters and it's just an initial list, but I have a feeling she won't be moving up unless she gets buffed.

 

[Ryan.]

Not sure what being a Pac-Man supporter, with so many others seeing as he's a gaming icon, has to do with opinions on completely different characters, but alright lol.

 

[Ultinarok]

Not sure what being a Pac-Man supporter, with so many others seeing as he's a gaming icon, has to do with opinions on completely different characters, but alright lol.

Its just Foojin. She makes accounts to troll and annoy people and then gets banned after a dozen or less posts. This one is no exception. Don't worry about it.

 

[Ryan.]

Lol I didn't know that, thanks for the heads up!

Zelda though. I was really hoping things would be different for her this time around, and Phantom Slash is not as good as I expected. :/ Here's to hoping Sakurai gives her more improvements. I do like her up special better though.

 

[Ultinarok]

Wow @ this rude description.


I should report you for personal attacks and slander.
But I won't.





Anyways now that we've established PacMan and the mii's are terrible character choices, let's get back on topic.

It takes more than a couple of hours of gameplay to make a tier list, but I still think Zelda would be bad in her current state.

I didn't personally attack you, champ. I just told the truth. You can't expect anyone to think you're being serious with your Palutena thread and all of the bold proclamations you make about things. You just be trollin'.

I agree about your tier list ideas though. Too early to be taking these things seriously.

 

[Hong]

this is one of the reasons I think competitive smash is so stupid. They (competitive gamers) have to over analyze and break down everything to make sure its all 'competitive' worthy. I personally hate Tier lists, simply because the sheep who are into this sort of thing will instantly flock to characters who are high tier, and only use them, just for the sake of being better than everyone else.

No, you don't have to like competitive play. No, you don't have to acknowledge tier lists. No, you don't have to play in a limited set of stages with items off.

But competitive players aren't telling you to play the game the way they do, so why are you hating on them? Competitive play is not "stupid", neither is casual. You are welcome to constructively argue the merit of tier lists, but just taking swings at a fair margin of our community, many of which are awesome and friendly people, is not cool.

 

[staindgrey]

I didn't personally attack you, champ. I just told the truth. You can't expect anyone to think you're being serious with your Palutena thread and all of the bold proclamations you make about things. You just be trollin'.

I agree about your tier list ideas though. Too early to be taking these things seriously.

Take seriously? I agree.

Discuss because we have nothing else to discuss until October? I think that's warranted.

 

[Ultinarok]

Take seriously? I agree.

Discuss because we have nothing else to discuss until October? I think that's warranted.

True that. I think "tier list" is just too heavy of a term to refer to this list. Any and all lists of character placement, until extensive match-up testing post-launch, should be called "initial impressions." Because that's all they are. Tier lists are more empirical.

 

[Xavier :D]

Whether or not she's low-tier, she's definitely boring...

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

But if Zelda was considered high tier at the start of Brawl and now she is bottom tier. And now in SSB4 she is considered bottom at the start, then that means...

Anyways, I'm sticking to Zelda as a secondary to fight against the Palutena bandwagon. Brunettemagicuser4life.

 

[Nintendo Fan]

This tier list can be biased as others have said, yet I think that Zelda is pretty much going to be stuck where she was in Brawl. Like, a total revamp of her moveset could prove fruitful, but that's obviously not happening now. Every character is changing in some way or another, so to our disdain her potential is being subdued. She can't get super speed or crazy strength or anything (besides her sweetspots); the development team has to preserve her Zeldaness.

To my understanding, Sakurai is clearly trying to appeal to the competitive fan-base even more but he must have some clue on the fact that there are a lot of people who don't even pay attention to tier lists and will just hop on their consoles to have fun. And, out of these two categories, I think that this is where Zelda is unfortunately relegated to.

I personally don't see Zelda as being that bad, I would place her about mid-tier for now.

 

[Ryan.]

I remember when I first found out about tier lists and was surprised by Zelda's positions. That's how casual I am. Now I see the issues and just wish they were all fixed for Smash 4. Really hoping they improve her more before relesse, she deserves it.

 

[Foojin]

Did he lie though?

Edit - Deliberately padding post length. Reduced. - Hong

 

[ECHOnce]

She has one of the more arguably unique movesets. Of course she's interesting/fun to play, at least to many of us. Why else would we main her? Certainly not for her tier placement.

 

[Skyfox2000]

The Queen of Hyrule doesn't deserve low tier!