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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

What is Sonic's worst match up?


  • Total voters
    52
  • Poll closed .

Delta_BP26

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Jab>UpB is escapable, just saying.
That's not why I told you to avoid it. There's Jab-UpB, Jab-DSmash, Jab-Dtilt trip-SHORYUUUKEN, which, given it is done fast enough, is inescapable. There's the classic AAA combo, Jab to up angled F-Smash (Here's an idea. Pick Luigi in training mode, with default controls. Hold up, and mash the C-Stick forward. You will be surprised by the results, which are something like WAHWAHWAHWAH), Jab-USmash, and... I think you get the point. Just avoid the jab, and the U-Tilt, while not as WTFMAN!! and Fox's or Mario's, is still annoying.
 

Tenki

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^ He speaks Wario too

this makes his Luigi a co-conspirator in countering Sonic.

lol.
 

Tenki

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(Here's an idea. Pick Luigi in training mode, with default controls. Hold up, and mash the C-Stick forward. You will be surprised by the results, which are something like WAHWAHWAHWAH)
Well, anyway, that jab rundown was educational. The only thing I knew about was the jab> up-B combos.
 

Kinzer

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Well, good to know Luigi has about as much Jab options as Ike does, if not more.
 

Delta_BP26

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Well, anyway, that jab rundown was educational. The only thing I knew about was the jab> up-B combos.
I get it now. :laugh:

Also, yeah, glad to help. Also, I stopped using the Jab-Shoryuken after everyone powershielded it and punished me for it. I learned how to trick people when I'm in his helpless state though; works every time, lol. A good/experienced Luigi won't land on the platform, but go right through the floor so you waste time going up to hit nothing. But be happy, Luigi's out of jab options aren't as stupid as Ike's. Jab canceling with Ike into an AAA combo does like, 20+...
 

SonicX580

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Hey Delta BP26 is it true that most Luigi players try to build up damage with basic attacks and then go for a powerful blow because I faced a friend who did that and that seemed to be his style ( he almost never beats me).
 

Kinzer

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When fresh, Ike's complete AAA Jab combo deals out 16%, but that's a whole different thing off-topic. I'm sure that even if Luigi's Jab-game isn't as damaging (or is it?), can also kill just like say Ike's AADsmash.

Edit: X5, that's the whole point of Brawl! You won't kill an opponent unless it was either a gimp K.O., or you will have to build up damage before normal moves start turning into finishers.
 

Tenki

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lol.

The manner they do the attacks is usually along the lines of F-air F-air (depends on DI ) > B/U/F-air > etc.
stick to the rFAQ man D;

Kinzer, he meant with jab cancels.
 

SonicX580

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When fresh, Ike's complete AAA Jab combo deals out 16%, but that's a whole different thing off-topic. I'm sure that even if Luigi's Jab-game isn't as damaging (or is it?), can also kill just like say Ike's AADsmash.

Edit: X5, that's the whole point of Brawl! You won't kill an opponent unless it was either a gimp K.O., or you will have to build up damage before normal moves start turning into finishers.
I know that part what I meant by my question is how come most Luigi players only do the basic attacks because if you use a more powerful attack you can KO your opponent earlier.
 

Delta_BP26

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Luigi mains don't need to worry about killing, because at early percents, his moves combo extremely well, but at higher percents, almost everything can kill fresh. The means Luigis don't have to alter their playstyle to kill. F-Air is the exception, it CAN kill, but it kills at high percentages. Otherwise, it's a 0 lag move that chains well. Luigi's disadvantage is his range and poor defensive game, so you're either going to have to play spacey/zoney, or somehow find a way to make Sonic's offense incredible, so Luigi will have to play defensively. Most Luigi mains have trouble doing that. I've been working on it myself. Stupid Marth...
 

Kinzer

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Well look at this way, Brawl is sort of a precision game (at least compared to it's predecessor where it was about punishment and agility.), you want to do the basic attacks because that's what they're meant for. You don't want to use a kill move when it isn't going to KILL, otherwise it just stalls it out and it will only make the match go longer. Sakurai did something when he made stall move negation (to an extent), you can't spam moves because it's just not good. For one thing it makes you predictable, two: moves will get weaker after a while and then you will have to dish out other moves in order to make another move fresh. Never throw out wild punches, for example a (smart) Luigi player isn't going to want to Fire-Jump Punch you at 43% because it's not guaranteed to kill whereas it would kill if you are patient enough to wait to get your opponent at say 97%.

If that still doesn't answer your quesrion I give up, and you should ask in the respective thread.
 

SonicX580

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Luigi mains don't need to worry about killing, because at early percents, his moves combo extremely well, but at higher percents, almost everything can kill fresh. The means Luigis don't have to alter their playstyle to kill. F-Air is the exception, it CAN kill, but it kills at high percentages. Otherwise, it's a 0 lag move that chains well. Luigi's disadvantage is his range and poor defensive game, so you're either going to have to play spacey/zoney, or somehow find a way to make Sonic's offense incredible, so Luigi will have to play defensively. Most Luigi mains have trouble doing that. I've been working on it myself. Stupid Marth...
Thanks for the explanation that explains my friend's moves he mostly does that.


__________________________
Don't worry Kinzer I understand.
 

Delta_BP26

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Shoryuken kills Sonic at around 60, not 97. Beware.

RANDOM OFF TOPIC: Halloween. It gets less significant every year. Seriously, when I was a little kid I used to bring home shopping bags of candy, and my sisters bring home nothing.
 

aeghrur

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Shoryuken kills Sonic at around 60, not 97. Beware.

RANDOM OFF TOPIC: Halloween. It gets less significant every year. Seriously, when I was a little kid I used to bring home shopping bags of candy, and my sisters bring home nothing.
T_T, you can kill us from a Jab at 60% if you do it well enough? Dang...
But that's with the utmost knockback though right? :O That makes me feel a little better. =/

As for Halloween, I love trick or treating. I'm still gonna go trick or treating with some friends, lol, and a sleepover/party along with scaring some kids. (=< God, I love this holiday, hahaha.
 

SonicX580

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T_T, you can kill us from a Jab at 60% if you do it well enough? Dang...
But that's with the utmost knockback though right? :O That makes me feel a little better. =/

As for Halloween, I love trick or treating. I'm still gonna go trick or treating with some friends, lol, and a sleepover/party along with scaring some kids. (=< God, I love this holiday, hahaha.
Hmm... then that must be some powerful jab to KO at 60% and I like haloween alot I want to dress up as the villan from Scary Movie the one with the chain saw or as the grim reaper the only problem about that is my Mom doesn 't like that (I'am not a adult for the record.)
 

Chis

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I hate halloween with a great intensity.

On topic, do we have enough information Greenstreet?
 

aeghrur

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I hate halloween with a great intensity.

On topic, do we have enough information Greenstreet?
T_T, WHY? what's so wrong about Halloween?

Oh, and what are some of Luigi's habits? Like, moves you favor, moves you use early on, moves you use later on, how you like to use specific moves such as fireball, tornado, or stuff etc.
 

SonicX580

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I hate halloween with a great intensity.
Why do you hate haloween it's awesome.
On topic, do we have enough information Greenstreet?
Why Haloween is awesome.
T_T, WHY? what's so wrong about Halloween?

Oh, and what are some of Luigi's habits? Like, moves you favor, moves you use early on, moves you use later on, how you like to use specific moves such as fireball, tornado, or stuff etc.
I think that some of Luigi's habits are you use basic attacks or others like tornado or fire ball then when you 're damage his high Luigi uses a powerful move to KO you I think that's about it and also Luigi likes to use areial combos if I'am missing anything or I'am wrong let me know.
 

Tenki

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I know that part what I meant by my question is how come most Luigi players only do the basic attacks because if you use a more powerful attack you can KO your opponent earlier.
Well look at this way, Brawl is sort of a precision game (at least compared to it's predecessor where it was about punishment and agility.), you want to do the basic attacks because that's what they're meant for. You don't want to use a kill move when it isn't going to KILL, otherwise it just stalls it out and it will only make the match go longer. Sakurai did something when he made stall move negation (to an extent), you can't spam moves because it's just not good. For one thing it makes you predictable, two: moves will get weaker after a while and then you will have to dish out other moves in order to make another move fresh. Never throw out wild punches, for example a (smart) Luigi player isn't going to want to Fire-Jump Punch you at 43% because it's not guaranteed to kill whereas it would kill if you are patient enough to wait to get your opponent at say 97%.

If that still doesn't answer your quesrion I give up, and you should ask in the respective thread.
SonicX: in case you didn't read that, there's something called Stale Moves where, if you land a move, the next time you use it, it will be weaker in damage and knockback.

If you land 9 other moves before you use it again, it will be back at full power, so yeah. But the more you use strong moves, the weaker they become.



Luigi can be played pretty jumpy, can't he?

Falling aerials' spacing can be screwed by Sonic's running shield, so they're usually openings for shield grabs. Tornado/fireballs can be used to counteract spindashes, and u-tilt starts juggles. Basically, the same way that Sonic can follow up a spindash with any aerial, Luigi can follow up his aerials with other ones, since he's so floaty.

I believe in the Luigi boards' side of this, WIGI wrote in some of his personal behaviors as Luigi. I have no idea if it's matchup-specific though lol.
 

SonicX580

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SonicX: in case you didn't read that, there's something called Stale Moves where, if you land a move, the next time you use it, it will be weaker in damage and knockback.

If you land 9 other moves before you use it again, it will be back at full power, so yeah. But the more you use strong moves, the weaker they become.



Luigi can be played pretty jumpy, can't he?

Falling aerials' spacing can be screwed by Sonic's running shield, so they're usually openings for shield grabs. Tornado/fireballs can be used to counteract spindashes, and u-tilt starts juggles. Basically, the same way that Sonic can follow up a spindash with any aerial, Luigi can follow up his aerials with other ones, since he's so floaty.

I believe in the Luigi boards' side of this, WIGI wrote in some of his personal behaviors as Luigi. I have no idea if it's matchup-specific though lol.
I know what stale moves are I read almost everything but I do agree with you on Luigi being aerial most of the Luigi's I faced do alot of aerial combos but they also mix-up a bit.
 

Kinzer

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Well I just wanted to use an example, I didn't really know what % FJP would kill Sonic, I just wanted to get a fork point around.

Off Topic: Eh Halloween got old after 13. Onoly reason adults do it is because of either smaller children, or parties...

On Topic: I better start saying smart stuff pertaining to Weegee, I've gone too off-topic.

I'm not really sure how much aerial mobility Weegee has, but can't his Bairs turn into A Weegee Wall of Pain? In any case if I get stuck in something like that I usually try and Spring out of it. Sonic' Bair should be able to exchange hits with Weegee's.

Weegee's Dair actually has a spiking property at his hands, again not sure how strong it is but I suppose you just shouldn't be near his pimp hands. I'm sure if you're fast enough with Fair you won't have to worry about that (maybe), and Uair is too good below him and even slightly on the sides of Uair hitbox. Bair outranges this too but you have to make sure you time and space it in order to hit Weegee.

Speaking of Pimp hands, Weegee has a Karate Chop *****slap Fair that's quick in both Startup lag and ending lag.

Now Weegee just keeps on pimpin', he even has his own Nair that is a Sex Kick, I'm positive though that Bair and maybe Uair will cut through it.

As for Weegee's Bycicle kick Uair, Sonic doesn't have anything to answer this except a Dair that has been initiated before, and a Spring to escape. again another one of his aerials that is too spammable for anything in your arsenal in that position.

For aerial combat I'm giving this one to Sonic.

Now for standard attacks and Smashes:

Weegee is looking good with his Jabs, he can mess with them to whatever he wants, be it his FJP, Dsmash, Usmash, Fsmash (more of a mindgame), A full Jab, a grab, an aerial (Probably N/D/F/Bair most likely [in that order]) a grab INTO an aerial at low %ages, a rab into an F/B-throw, with Back-throw the better killer at the edge, Utilt, Dtilt...well at least that's what I think he can come up with...that's a helluva lot of utility...maybe Mr. L was Batman.

His dash isn't so good, I think you can Powershield the last hit? if not that you can SDI into Luigi and end up BEHIND him before he's even done with the sequence.

Dtilt can trip you. Utilt leads into more Utilts which lead into more things at low %ages, mainly Aerials. Ftilt isn't so great either...makes them go a little ways, but that's about it...

Weegee's poke Fsmash is amazingly fast, it can be made EVEN FASTER when tilted upwards, and has astronomical K.O. power. Break Dancing Dsmash comes out fast, so fast it can be an OOS option for him. Finally his Usmash is also a decent killer.

Oh and because I want to to cover his "get-up attacks", they aren't so fantastic either, your Ftilt could easily outrange them...I think...

Okay, now pertaining to his Specials.

Mach Tornado Weegee Spin Luigi Cyclone can be used for lots of things. It gets him around the stage quickly, is one of his methods of recovery, get's him some vertical distance which can catch you offgaurd and you will end up getting Star K.O.ed if you aren't trying to get back to the ground fast, and just like the Mach Tornado not too many things will easily outprioritize this unless either spaced or something else I have forgotten to mention happens/goes wrong.

Weegee was behind 9/11! His Green Missile is yet another method of recovery, but get this! One in Every Eight Green Missiles will Misfire, giving them as much power as a fully charged regular missile...sometimes INSTANTLY! They send him flying further horizontally fast...again sometimes on the fly. This will always catch you offgaurd because it's a random chance, and will kill you if you aren't prepared for it. weegee also mgiht sometimes get stuck in a wall with a Misfire and will probably give you time to punish that.

Now for a regular Green Missile, it's not really impressive if uncharged, and even when it is is still not too frieghtening if at all. Add everything to the Misfire and downgrade it, and you have a regular Green Missile.

Fire-Jump Punch: Although many Weegee's won't balantaly be using this often, but it is used more as a punisher. If Weegee misses this, it is very easy to punish him in his helplessness state. If he DOES get you with this, start praying that you won't die.

Fireballs: To me, Ike can easily handle this...as Sonic, it's a different story. The invincibility frames from SD will of course go through them, however I'm not sure what the other methods of SD/SC compare to Fireball for example. Just get around this brickwall, as Luigi's fireballs defy gravity and can be used to stop you in the air or in the ground, depending on where you try to approach Weegee. Somebody else will have to cover this for me as I'm not too sure how Sonic can get around this and still keep up a good game.

For counterpick stages...eh screw it I don't know where I would want to take him as Sonic, somebody else can go ahead and cover my ass for me.

Somebody else will probably won't to mention how Sonic would want to play according to Weegee's playstyles.
 

Napilopez

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1) For aerial combat I'm giving this one to Sonic.

2) Weegee is looking good with his Jabs, he can mess with them to whatever he wants, be it his FJP, Dsmash, Usmash, Fsmash (more of a mindgame), A full Jab, a grab, an aerial (Probably N/D/F/Bair most likely [in that order]) a grab INTO an aerial at low %ages, a rab into an F/B-throw, with Back-throw the better killer at the edge, Utilt, Dtilt...well at least that's what I think he can come up with...that's a helluva lot of utility...maybe Mr. L was Batman.

3) His dash isn't so good, I think you can Powershield the last hit? if not that you can SDI into Luigi and end up BEHIND him before he's even done with the sequence.

4) Dtilt can trip you. Utilt leads into more Utilts which lead into more things at low %ages, mainly Aerials. Ftilt isn't so great either...makes them go a little ways, but that's about it...

5) Weegee's poke Fsmash is amazingly fast, it can be made EVEN FASTER when tilted upwards, and has astronomical K.O. power. Break Dancing Dsmash comes out fast, so fast it can be an OOS option for him. Finally his Usmash is also a decent killer.

6) Mach Tornado Weegee Spin Luigi Cyclone can be used for lots of things. It gets him around the stage quickly, is one of his methods of recovery, get's him some vertical distance which can catch you offgaurd and you will end up getting Star K.O.ed if you aren't trying to get back to the ground fast, and just like the Mach Tornado not too many things will easily outprioritize this unless either spaced or something else I have forgotten to mention happens/goes wrong.

7) Weegee was behind 9/11! His Green Missile is yet another method of recovery, but get this! One in Every Eight Green Missiles will Misfire, giving them as much power as a fully charged regular missile...sometimes INSTANTLY! They send him flying further horizontally fast...again sometimes on the fly. This will always catch you offgaurd because it's a random chance, and will kill you if you aren't prepared for it. weegee also mgiht sometimes get stuck in a wall with a Misfire and will probably give you time to punish that.

8) Now for a regular Green Missile, it's not really impressive if uncharged, and even when it is is still not too frieghtening if at all. Add everything to the Misfire and downgrade it, and you have a regular Green Missile.

9) Fire-Jump Punch: Although many Weegee's won't balantaly be using this often, but it is used more as a punisher. If Weegee misses this, it is very easy to punish him in his helplessness state. If he DOES get you with this, start praying that you won't die.

10) Fireballs: To me, Ike can easily handle this...as Sonic, it's a different story. The invincibility frames from SD will of course go through them, however I'm not sure what the other methods of SD/SC compare to Fireball for example. Just get around this brickwall, as Luigi's fireballs defy gravity and can be used to stop you in the air or in the ground, depending on where you try to approach Weegee. Somebody else will have to cover this for me as I'm not too sure how Sonic can get around this and still keep up a good game.
1) Aerial combat to Sonic? You have to remember that even though Sonic's can beat out luigis because of disjointedness, Luigis all come out ridiculously fast, his slowest being his dair if I'm not mistaken. Therefor the only area where Luigi is truly at a disadvantage in the air is when Sonic is below him. Luigis aerials are just too good. You're better off springing to safetly. Sonic can land some aerials by quickly jumping from the ground, but a fight thats actually taking place completely in the air? Unless Sonic is below luigi, Luigis wins.

2) This is pretty much true.

3) I assume you mean his dash attack, and all you have to do is like hold shield and it will usually powershield it before you get to the last hit, no problem with this move.

4) This is true, but you should never be that close to luigi, because dtilt has absymal range. space youself just outside of luigi's range with ftilts. For utilt juggles, DI and spring/midair jump out.

5) Fsmash is ridiculously powerful. Its only shortranged, so again, space with ftilt. I believe ftilt will clang with his fsmash.

6) DownB is very annoying. Yea its like Nado, but it has a smaller hitbox. Just cancel it with ftilt and you'll be fine. But yea, its definately an annoying move since it will either beat out or clang with your SDRs most of the time.

7) For the record, it is random, but with a probability of 1/8 of every green missile being a misfire. And yea, watch out, I've had too many matches when I played my luigi main friend where he would win a match I was supposed to wn by getting lucky with a misfire =(

8) yea, I don't know why a luigi would be using this for anything except recovery, especially against Sonic. If used onstage you can just outrun it and screechstop shield grab/pivot grab/sideB reversal shield grab. I've done this too many times. I love Sonic's speed.

9) This is the number oen reason you should always be moving in this matchup. I think you should always be moving as Sonic anyways, but fire jump punch is a serious prob. Add to that that sonic has significant ending lag on several of his moves, and you'r in trouble. Never SHFF and fair, or whiff a usmash when luigi is on the ground XD.

10) Fireballs shouldn't be a problem. Of course luigi will hit you with them sometimes, but since when does Sonic have trouble with projectiles? Marios fireballs are much more problematic imo. you can spinshot if you need to get in there quick, you can use invincy frames, you can sideB shield cancel, or run and powershield. Remember Sonic runs quick lol, so if you run and powershield, luigi doesnt exactly have much time to get out more fireballls.

Anyways, to me this match up is broken down like this:

Luigi can pwn Sonic in the air if Sonic is not below him. Luigi can kill Sonic very quickly. Those are his main advantages.

Sonic can outrange luigi on the ground, and has the speed to punish alot of luigis stuff. Shielding his aerials and then sliding into grab range will be your friend.

I can't really see the matchup going too strongly in either ones favors. my guess would be 55:45 luig. At worst, but unlikely, 60;40 luigi
 

Jim Morrison

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NO, it's either neutral or small Sonic favor, Luigi doesn't have much except air sex kicks. Just block air approaches and stay on ground. He can kill earlier than you but that shouldnt pose much problem
 

YellowSnowDemon

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Assuming you don't shield it, Luigi can nair you into a fire jump punch at low percents. If he lands it, you'll be between 40-50%.
 

Kinzer

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I would just put it as neutral for Sonic/Luigi, I can't really see who would have the clear advantage.
 

Tenki

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Luigi has more options to shut down Sonic. Disjointed attacks, near-lagless aerials, Tornado outprioritizes specials (including spring) so gimping can become harder/riskier.
 

Napilopez

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I feel neither side has a great feel about the matchup. I used to play luigis literally every Single day, and went even, but that was months ago, I'm not sure how things evolved on both sides.

With what we have so far, it seems neutral, but idk =/. Thinking its in luigis favor. perhaps 55:45 because of how easy luigi can kill Sonic and his superior air game?
 

Kinzer

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Eh I wouldn't personally go chasing a Luigi offstage, the risks to me do not outweight the benefit, if anything I would just wait on the stage and get Luigi when he's drained of recovery options.

For one thing, Green Missile recoveries aren't reliable, I think the Cyclone will only rise on the first use, siphon that and they're left with only their Up-B and a chance at getting any distance with the Misfired Green Missile.

A grounded Cyclone can prove to be a nuisance, but at least unlike the Mach Tornado you have mroe things to work with. I'm too lazy to go into detail though, but for starters, it's easy to shield through the whole thing.

Edit: I suppose this will end up having the same numbers as Pikachu with Luigi in favor.
 

Napilopez

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Yea... can anyone set up some games? I'd gladly play a luigi this weekend if I can get some warm up, but I'm not sure yet if i'll be going home =/

Hmm... G&W next, should be interesting.
 

SonicX580

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Hmm I think it's 45-55 in Sonic's favor because Sonic could knock off Luigi off the stage and then mess-up his recovery and remember Luigi recovery isn't really reliable his missle is kinda of a chance sometimes it hardly does anything and his super jump has poor recovery vertically and horizantally anybody agree?
 

Tenki

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Hmm I think it's 45-50 in Sonic's favor because Sonic could knock off Luigi off the stage and then mess-up his recovery and remember Luigi recovery isn't really reliable his missle is kinda of a chance sometimes it hardly does anything and his super jump has poor recovery vertically and horizantally anybody agree?
That's bad reasoning. His Tornado, if used correctly, can cover the height of Sonic's spring.


also, convention:
numbers add up to 100.
45+50=95

f a i l
 

Kinzer

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It's true that Weegee is very vurnerable offstage, but consider that he is very floaty, and he's in the air, even if he is recovering, he still has the aerial game hence forth.

Not only that, but just because something is unreliable doesn't also mean it's unstable either. Luigi can just wait to bust out the Cyclone. Also just because Green Missiles don't do much doesn't mean they still don't send him horizontal. Not only that but if you aren't expecting a misfire to go off, it migh turn out to be your attempts at gimping the Weegee will backfire.

Finally a Weegee is never goin to use a FJP as a recovery unless there are no other options.Yes it sucks, but they can also wait for you to misspace something like Fair and then you end up getting close enough for the FJP to go off.

Luigi is not one of the characters who can easily be gimped, at least not with a character like Sonic.
 

Camalange

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Hmm I think it's 45-50 in Sonic's favor because Sonic could knock off Luigi off the stage and then mess-up his recovery and remember Luigi recovery isn't really reliable his missle is kinda of a chance sometimes it hardly does anything and his super jump has poor recovery vertically and horizantally anybody agree?
No. Your ratio is off, I believe you mean 55-45 Sonic's favor (45+50=/=100). It's more likely in Luigi's favor because his aerials shut down a lot of Sonic's approaches, but you're somewhat right on the fact that Luigi's recovery is predictable, but his super jump has pretty decent vertical coverage, and the tornado makes up for it. Read some things others have said too.
 

Kinzer

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Hey nice sig Cat, but aren't you afraid of getting reported for sig violations with something as big as that?
 
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