Guide Sonic GUIDE/FAQ: ASK QUESTIONS HERE

[The_Paradiddler]

Hey guys,

So I was playing for glory when this happened:

didn't hit any directional, no clue what happened. And even if I did accidentally b-reverse it still should have locked on, right?

Any ideas?

 

[Camalange]

Hey guys,

So I was playing for glory when this happened:

didn't hit any directional, no clue what happened. And even if I did accidentally b-reverse it still should have locked on, right?

Any ideas?

Pretty simple, as far as I can tell.

You accidentally B-reversed the HA and during it's "lock-on" phase, R.O.B. rolled, making him invincible and undetectable, thus leaving you to face the other way, plunging to your demise.

Anyone object?

 

[The_Paradiddler]

I didn't know that rolling/dodging makes characters undetectable by HA, interesting. That must be it. Thanks!

 

[Camalange]

I didn't know that rolling/dodging makes characters undetectable by HA, interesting. That must be it. Thanks!

If a character is invincible during the lock-on phase in general it will cause it to fail, iirc.

 

[Swiffy22]

I don't have a Wii-U myself ATM; so: does anybody here have a chance to tell me if perhaps Double Spring can you give you more (effective) follow-ups from a low-% UThrow? And if possible, can you still get the same punishes you can with regular Up-B or is it not possible due to stuff and things?

In the off-chance that customs actually become legal in Vegas, I'd like to have a bit of a head-start on some different options that may or may not be better in general or depending on the matchups.

Double Spring just doesn't work that well from my experience. It's got the least height recovery of all three and leaves you vulnerable for longer. It looks like it'd be good for edge guarding with springs, if that's your thing, but I can't say that it's really any more effective than the other two.

If you want something that feels like a "substantial" upgrade, I'd suggest giving Hammer Spin Dash a try. The power of the move is nerfed from the original, but it gives you some nice new options to get around. Here's a few advantages I've noticed:

• Jumping at the apex of the initial jump gets you to full double jump height really quickly.
• Using it to get back to the stage if you get knocked away is quicker than Dair, and without the laggy landing.
• Uncharged launches noticeably more quickly than normal Spin Dash.
• After landing, uncharged moves slower than normal Spin Dash, which I've had confuse people more than once.
• Its skid-to-stop trait transfers to spin charge, so you don't have to commit or jump out of an accidental Spin Charge.
• Spinshot is still intact exactly as normal.
• The occasional burying of opponents.
• Hammer Spin dash > Uair > Hammer Spin Dash (in opposite direction) > Uair

While normal Spin Dash and Spin Charge feel like small variations of the same move, Hammer Spin Dash feels like its own thing, which is nice.

Other suggestions I'd have would be Surprise Attack and Springing Headbutt, which I also use. However, as Camalange mentioned, it's preference. And I agree with that on these two moves especially. I won't rant on those unless you really want me to.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

the thing about surprise attack is that sure it's faster as far as startup from normal HA but it's weaker, doesn't combo into anything and to top it all off is unsafe both on shield AND on hit. sure you don't plummet if you miss off stage but the moves negatives i feel are too great to outweigh that one plus. Double spring in tandem with hammer spin dash gives you a lot of options. that and double spring is great vs characters who have multiple jumps and are trying to recover or characters who need precise spacing of their jumps and recovery to make it back sch as luigi.

 

[Camalange]

Casual reminder that the knockback on double spring is complete ass and can actually help people's recoveries since it basically just gives them their Up-B back.

Double Spring I had so much hope for...

I agree that Hammer is by far the custom with the most unique uses and potential... But SideB is already so good that I think even that comes down to preference. I really like the utility of standard SideB. Feels more... Versatile, consistent, etc.

Sonic already has Uair and spring follow-ups to cover vertical options and Hammer Spin Dash just sort of adds more to that... But then we lose SideB as a good horizontal ground option. You can't really approach with Hammer Spin Dash because it's so forecasted, and Sonic's approaches are already bad enough as it is. Standard SideB is like such a bread n' butter all purpose move.

It would require more exploration on my part though before I can completely stand by those ideas.

Gravitational Spin Charge I fear may be situational at best. Maybe some potential for janky edgeguards and gimps.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Using it to get back to the stage if you get knocked away is quicker than Dair, and without the laggy landing.

This.. is actually interesting.

 

[HeavyMetalSonic]

This.. is actually interesting.

Uh oh... What are you up to..?

Anyway, about Sonic's DTilt... When does it trip? It seems a bit random to me and I've not really looked into it. Is there a sweet spot or something? It's so satisfying tripping someone and following it up with an up smash for a kill. It'd just be nice to know if I can plan it ahead.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Not up to anything, unfortunately, but seeing as our landing options are absolute trash, that HSD property made me a little bit optimistic, tbh.

If you have your double jump available, you can HSD, double jump cancel, HSD again and cancel the roll by holding backwards. This is just theorycraft but sounds really promising.

 

[Camalange]

Not up to anything, unfortunately, but seeing as our landing options are absolute trash, that HSD property made me a little bit optimistic, tbh.

true

Anyway, about Sonic's DTilt... When does it trip? It seems a bit random to me and I've not really looked into it. Is there a sweet spot or something? It's so satisfying tripping someone and following it up with an up smash for a kill. It'd just be nice to know if I can plan it ahead.

I've noticed that it seems to occur the most between 10-20%? I'm sure it's wider than that, but that's when I get it the most consistently. Pretty small percent window, which is stupid. I think it needs to be "tippered" too.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I need some advice and references if possible.

Tomorrow is a large tournament in which the bracket has been made already. I just checked it out and it appears my first real opponent will be a Pikachu. I play both Sonic and Pikachu but haven't really done this MU from the Sonic side. I would try the Pikachu ditto but the Pikachu I am going against is not only very good at the ditto but is one of my regular training partners: I already know his Pikachu is a bit ahead of mine.

I can definitely beat him but it'll be a well earned victory if I do. Should I beat him, I will very likely be playing another Sonic player. Advice for the ditto would helpful in case I decide to/get forced to go that route.

So basically I need some tips on the Sonic ditto and the Pikachu MU. Please and thank you.

 

[HeavyMetalSonic]

true

I've noticed that it seems to occur the most between 10-20%? I'm sure it's wider than that, but that's when I get it the most consistently. Pretty small percent window, which is stupid. I think it needs to be "tippered" too.

Are you sure it's between that? Because I literally played a game with a friend earlier and tripped him at a fairly high %, high enough that up smash immediately after killed him. I think I might have to go into training and test it out. I think you're right about it being a tipper though. I'll try it tomorrow when I have some spare time. c:

 

[Swiffy22]

Well, I'm switching back to 1211 for a while. Springing Headbutt just isn't working out like I anticipated. Doesn't seem worth getting the 1% damage hitbox most of the time when I could be Uairing them instead. I noticed I was racking up high percents pretty quickly, but taking the stock seemed like much more of a problem, for whatever reason. Uair juggling/killing must be more common for me than I thought.

So I'm going to take a break from Springing Headbutt for a bit, but Surprise Attack is the one I'm not sure about. I noticed that I was still getting some nice knockback from Surprise Attack, so I did a little testing on killing percents.

Attacking Mario at the center of FD:
Homing Attack Uncharged - 300%~
Homing Attack Fully Charged - 161%~
Surprise Attack - 182%~

Considering I usually use this to get space between me and my opponent, a kill move when edge-guarding, or for recovery, Surprise Attack seems like the better option, for me anyway. But I don't think I need to give up on the normal one just yet. The problem I usually have with normal homing attack is that it takes just long enough to get shielded or dodged, even when uncharged. Does anyone have any tips on how I can make better use of the normal Homing Attack, or am I just better off sticking with Surprise Attack?

 

[The_Paradiddler]

Does anyone have any tips on how I can make better use of the normal Homing Attack, or am I just better off sticking with Surprise Attack?

I honestly don't know much about Surprise Attack, but...

If you become familiar enough with it, he delay between starting an HA and when it hits can actually be quite a nice mixup. This especially works well on people using up smashes or other skills to block the aerial approach. The delay of HA is enough for most characters attack to end so you shoot right in for the hit.

One of the best parts about Sonic is that he has such a high max speed that slowing things down suddenly can throw off the opponents game like crazy. It's like a flamethrowing pitcher tossing a changeup. Gotta go fast, but not all the time

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I need some advice and references if possible.

Tomorrow is a large tournament in which the bracket has been made already. I just checked it out and it appears my first real opponent will be a Pikachu. I play both Sonic and Pikachu but haven't really done this MU from the Sonic side. I would try the Pikachu ditto but the Pikachu I am going against is not only very good at the ditto but is one of my regular training partners: I already know his Pikachu is a bit ahead of mine.

I can definitely beat him but it'll be a well earned victory if I do. Should I beat him, I will very likely be playing another Sonic player. Advice for the ditto would helpful in case I decide to/get forced to go that route.

So basically I need some tips on the Sonic ditto and the Pikachu MU. Please and thank you.

Check my vids in the video thread. I don't really have any honest advice but there are two different Pikachus there that you can try to analyze or something.

 

[HeavyMetalSonic]

Does anyone have any tips on how I can make better use of the normal Homing Attack, or am I just better off sticking with Surprise Attack?

I tend to use it, but in the air, for two reasons.

1. After your bog standard side/downB into an aerial, I will randomly throw out a HA sometimes. Because they've been knocked into the air by side/downB, they have to air dodge it. And given the fact that you can mix it up and make it faster or slower, there's a 50% chance you'll hit. Sometimes they flat out won't air dodge either because they won't see it coming. At least in my experience. A good player will most probably have a lot less trouble dodging this. But at least if they're air dodging it, they're not attacking you.
2. I use it to keep myself in the air for just a little bit longer. Say you've used up your double jump, and you're coming down above an opponent and you KNOW they're going to try and hit you. Using HA will suspend you for a little longer just to avoid the attack and maybe even land one yourself. On stages like BF you could also hit the platforms to keep you out of their way.

I don't tend to use it on the ground, it's not really viable for punishing someone when Sonic can easily cover the ground HA covers on foot and have a lot less chance of missing with a dash attack or grab.

I don't really use HA much, but when I do that's usually when and why I'd use it. So don't take my word for it, but it usually works out for me, although I could be doing the entirely wrong thing.

 

[Camalange]

Are you sure it's between that? Because I literally played a game with a friend earlier and tripped him at a fairly high %, high enough that up smash immediately after killed him. I think I might have to go into training and test it out. I think you're right about it being a tipper though. I'll try it tomorrow when I have some spare time. c:

Hm, I'm sure it happens at other percents but it consistently works for me at those low percents. So much so that when I first discovered it, I could predict a Dtilt trip almost every time in tournament match and immediately react with a running grab>Uthrow>Uair. If you find other percents it reliably works at, I'd be interested to hear.

Also, HA is a good combo ender (sometimes) and a good way to stall your aerial mobility. Like, if someone charges a Usmash because you're about to land, you can start a HA right out of range and then punish their whiff as it releases.

 

[Gregory2590]

Am I the only one who likes to run off the edge a bit, then SD back on to the stage for an immediate SDR to deal with people who are trying to chase you down? I mean, I don't do this a lot, but it's just something fun to pull off every now and then.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I had issues with Dr.Robotniks Yoshi and Shiny's Lucario.. I think I need some help on both match ups, plus not doing some of the silly mistakes I did vs them (charging up smash for no reason missing my usual slide, rolling into attacks etc.). I did take 1 game off them each, but even so I felt I got a little fortunate in those two matches in particular.

Any recommendations on how to better approach both? Or like secondaries that could do well vs them?

 

[IPoD Max]

Hello Sonc Players. I'm a metaknight main, and as you may or may not know, since metaknight is pretty rare, sonic is metaknight's worst matchup by a mile. Over in the metaknight forums, lots of metaknights agree its like 80-20 for sonic at worst. Anyway, the point is: what is sonic's absolute worst matchup? My secondaries are Peach, Pit, Zelda, or ZSS. How do they matchup against sonic, could I use one of them as a counter? Or, excluding diddy and Sheik, is there any character I could learn for sole purpose of the sonic MU? Any help would be appreciated, and sorry to ask you to betray your fellow sonics.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Yo.

So when Sonics recover offstage, I see many getting that quick horizontal boost from an SC (I think). How exactly does it work?

 

[Gregory2590]

Yo.

So when Sonics recover offstage, I see many getting that quick horizontal boost from an SC (I think). How exactly does it work?

You sure you didn't witness a spinshot off stage?

 

[Camalange]

Hello Sonc Players.

Hello Metaknght Player.

I'm a metaknight main, and as you may or may not know, since metaknight is pretty rare, sonic is metaknight's worst matchup by a mile.

huh

Over in the metaknight forums, lots of metaknights agree its like 80-20 for sonic at worst.

what

Anyway

sorry still haven't recovered from that last one hold on sorry

still reveling in a post brawl world where this could even be a possible statement that exists

the point is: what is sonic's absolute worst matchup? My secondaries are Peach, Pit, Zelda, or ZSS. How do they matchup against sonic, could I use one of them as a counter? Or, excluding diddy and Sheik, is there any character I could learn for sole purpose of the sonic MU? Any help would be appreciated, and sorry to ask you to betray your fellow sonics.

Sonic's worst match-up is against people who know the match-up.

Yo.

So when Sonics recover offstage, I see many getting that quick horizontal boost from an SC (I think). How exactly does it work?

Spinshot?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Maybe it is a Spinshot but its not registering in my mind for some reason. It just seems other Sonics do it faster/get more distance. I dunno.

 

[Camalange]

Maybe it is a Spinshot but its not registering in my mind for some reason. It just seems other Sonics do it faster/get more distance. I dunno.

Can you link to it?

It's the only thing that can be done out of a Spin Charge or Spin Dash offstage that would give you distance. SD makes you fall like a brick and SC pretty much just continues you on whatever path you're on.

 

[Gregory2590]

So about that Spindash mechanic video, Cammy.

 

[Camalange]

So about that Spindash mechanic video, Cammy.

Yeah...

I wish I wasn't so busy so I could just finish the video and post it and be done with it like HERE'S A SPINSHOT OKAY BYE

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I'm on my phone ATM but at the Apex video of 6WX vs Dabuz, at 7:02 he gets knocked off the stage twice and does what I'm referring to.

EDIT: I think part of my problem is confusion between all these ATs. What EXACTLY does a Spinshot look like visually? Does Sonic still have the blue aura around him or not during this animation?

 

[Camalange]

EDIT: I think part of my problem is confusion between all these ATs. What EXACTLY does a Spinshot look like visually? Does Sonic still have the blue aura around him or not during this animation?

My video should be out sometime in the next couple days. Finishing it up now.

No blue aura. That's just a spin dash/charge jump. Fastest way to do that is through an instant spin dash jump or a stationary spin dash/charge jump by charging up and flicking up on the C-Stick.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Okay so you've confirmed it for me. What I'm trying to do is a Spinshot and I'm totally failing at it.

 

[Camalange]

Okay so you've confirmed it for me. What I'm trying to do is a Spinshot and I'm totally failing at it.

Be on the lookout for my new video

At this rate, should be out either tonight or tomorrow!

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I'll be eagerly awaiting. Ready to take my tech skill game with Sonic to the next level.

 

[Swiffy22]

Thanks for the tips on Homing Attack. I used to think of it as more of a "charged or uncharged" move. Now I've been watching people a little more carefully and using it to punish. It seems so obvious now.

I noticed a weird "tethering" maneuver that, even though it's probably useless, I want to share. Simply do a foxtrot (I think that's the term for it) and hold the stick about a quarter way between neutral and full. You'll do the normal foxtrot animation, but then speed up for a split second to gain more distance. It's like its trying to catch up to where you would be if you had walked after the foxtrot. It's very touchy, kind of hard to describe. But when I do it optimally, I can cover just over half of Battlefield with the initial dash, foxtrot, and slide. Without the slide, it takes about 4 & 1/2.

I decided to upload a quick video of it at half speed, since it seems so...odd. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbD_UCjUS6Y

I tried this as a few other characters too, and couldn't get it to work. Also, it's not quite as difficult as I first thought: you don't have to go completely neutral after the foxtrot, just full stick to quarter stick. Still not that easy, but we could use it to throw people off, perhaps?

I found this: http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/32197/t1357055-7-chaos-emeralds-sonic-guide-by-magnum/

Apparently another carryover from Brawl. It's referred to as "Grinding" here.

 

[Camalange]

Apparently another carryover from Brawl. It's referred to as "Grinding" here.

I'll be eagerly awaiting. Ready to take my tech skill game with Sonic to the next level.

The wait is over.

Thanks everyone for being patient with me on this one. I really hope this clears up any problems and misconceptions about Spinshot from now on. I'll be including this in the OP of the thread as well as updating the phrasing later to make it more consistent with what I used in this video.

Would love to get feedback and critique on this video as well. If you guys like this sort of approach, I can continue doing it with Sonic's other techniques.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Nice, hopefully people will finally stop asking understand what a Spinshot really is.

 

[Camalange]

Nice, hopefully people will finally stop asking understand what a Spinshot really is.

one can dream

 

[DrizzyDrew]

I need to learn how to fight Sonics, anyone want to get in some sparring matches in?

 

[BlackPhantom]

I need to learn how to fight Sonics, anyone want to get in some sparring matches in?

I have 3ds version. That is all.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

@ Camalange

I effin love you so much. Now I can perform this. Just gotta get committed to muscle memory. Great video. Clarified everything for me.

I once was lost but now am found.