Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[Solharath]

A flash on Side-B now?
Welp. There goes the work I put it in for actually learning the timing.

I requested the addition of the flash because it shouldn't be so odd in the first place. Ike's frame limiter makes sense in some way, but the timing on Sonic's is just... somewhere in the middle, there. I know where it is now(sort of, I still screw up from time to time if I start a spin mid-air and then land, which resets the timer(this is fixed in 3.0)), but it seemed much more intuitive to let the player know via visual cue, rather than 'keep it a secret.'

 

[DoctorBoson]

While I do quite like seeing the flash implemented to help with timings, my big problem is now your enemies will also be able to see when your options open and can react according to that, instead of having to learn the matchup more extensively (projecting, obviously, but this is the only thing I see that could be problematic with this change).

Also, the white flash is really intrusive from the bits I've seen on streams; I'm kind of hoping it goes to a more reasonable opacity

 

[Solharath]

Huh, when I played 3.0 at MI Ranbats it was a vague blueish flash that was harder to spot. Haven't seen recent streams. Also, I brought up the point that your enemies would know as well when I asked for the change as well. In the end, I argue that, while the timer is certainly not something I think should affect Sonic for nearly as long as it does(this may change when 3.0 hits proper and I no longer have to deal with two separate timers), it is a buff to both sides - the player can more accurately react, and the opponent can, in turn, more accurately react to their reaction.

And then you can react to their reaction, which in turn they react to your reaction of their reaction to your ability to move, and then– well you get my point. In the end I find that Sonic has received two major buffs to Side-B in 3.0 - the singular reaction timer, and the fact he pops up a bit more when you use it in air and hold down the B Button, which works for recovery. The fact that the flash is a double-edged sword is a necessary change to help an opponent deal with a better version of an already good move.

It's amusing to see how much Sonic changes in as little as a week or a month. Having played a WIP Sonic at The Big House 3 and then again playing a more finalized 3.0 Sonic at MI Ranbats, and now I hear even more has changed, I have no idea what I'm getting in the hedgehog when Dec. 9th rolls around.

 

[Ariyo]

I start a spin mid-air and then land, which resets the timer(this is fixed in 3.0).'

Thank God.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Is there a thread for Sonic frame data? If so, can someone link me to it?

 

[Wizzrobe]

Is there a thread for Sonic frame data? If so, can someone link me to it?

Nope. A long time ago I asked multiple people for frame data and nobody helped out so there is none.

 

[DireDrop]

Maybe one will show up once the game is more finalized.

 

[Nazo]

Don't worry Wizzrobe and friends, we can always make a frame data thread after 3.0 releases; right now it's a bit too late to make one since 2.6 is coming to an end.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Can't wait....the blue blur will surely surprise and please us hedgehogs.

 

[cmart]

Nope. A long time ago I asked multiple people for frame data and nobody helped out so there is none.

Sorry Wizzy. I had aspirations to do this for characters I've worked on, but the reality is that it's a lot of work that ends up distracting from other things that need doing. Especially when characters change and information becomes outdated. Maybe once development calms down, some of the PMBR will have the time to put in the work that goes into documentation like that, but for at least the foreseeable future it'll be up to the community.

 

[Player -0]

Sorry Wizzy. I had aspirations to do this for characters I've worked on, but the reality is that it's a lot of work that ends up distracting from other things that need doing. Especially when characters change and information becomes outdated. Maybe once development calms down, some of the PMBR will have the time to put in the work that goes into documentation like that, but for at least the foreseeable future it'll be up to the community.

Oh yeah, since the PMBR messes with frames they know all the frames for each move and can just post it off? Having nice gifs and stuff are a different story though...

 

[cmart]

Haha it's not even a matter of being able to rattle them off. To really know the frame data for a move, you typically need to consult multiple programs and account for a lot of little things. It's not as easy as "just knowing" - that information has to compiled and researched, even for us.

 

[DireDrop]

Haha it's not even a matter of being able to rattle them off. To really know the frame data for a move, you typically need to consult multiple programs and account for a lot of little things. It's not as easy as "just knowing" - that information has to compiled and researched, even for us.

We're quite happy waiting for frame data if it means 3.0 is that much more awesome.

 

[Solharath]

This man does not speak for any of us.

 

[Bombitty]

So has anyone noticed if there's any kind of change to Sonic's grabs/throws at all?

 

[Wizzrobe]

So has anyone noticed if there's any kind of change to Sonic's grabs/throws at all?

They are the same.

 

[Solharath]

That's too bad. They aren't very good throws at all. UThrow is nice, Dthrow is only okay in singles, and matchup specific, FThrow is... it's nice I guess, but I can't come up with any good stuff for BThrow, outside of maybe "Get your opponent off stage" sort of like FThrow does, but slower so, again, less useful in teams. Maybe if Sonic could act faster out of some of them, but in so far his grab game is pretty one dimensional from where I'm standing. Anyone have any tips and tricks that I'm missing?

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Dthrow to fair off stage is pretty good if you want an early gimp,Bthrow and Fthrow are good for edgeguard setups.

 

[Nazo]

I like all of Sonic's throws aside from Bthrow. It's useful for offstage gimping and all, but lets face it, all of his other throws do a better job at it than Bthrow. With so much start-up on Bthrow, you'd think it would be good for atleast killing an opponent on the horizontal blast-zones.

But honestly he won't need a kill throw with his buffs he'll be receiving in 3.0.

 

[Player -0]

What about D-Throw techchase?

 

[Nazo]

D-throw tech chasing for Sonic is a breeze, It's the best tech chase throw he has. you can tech chase with Fthrow as well, but only with booboo DI.

tl;dr:
His D-throw is amazing.

 

[Solharath]

Yeah everyone I face generally doesn't get techchased with DThrow, seeing as I face very few spacies and their ilk, so tech chasing is not my thing at the moment.

 

[Nguz95]

How about I do the frame data for 3.0? When it comes out I'll put in some elbow grease to get it up for you guys. I know my way around the programs needed to make this work, so I think I should be able to finish it relatively quickly.

 

[Alex Night]

Hello, my name is Sonic and I like to party.

 

[Player -0]

Sonic has more aerial momentum.... Maybe now without a second jump he can slowly drift towards the stage instead of being screwed .

 

[DireDrop]

I like how much better Bair and Nair are now, but I'm not sure the Fair nerf was really necessary. I love the little flash on Side-B! That has helped my consistency so much, it's almost like that move got buffed.

 

[KiNGMONiR]

The homing attack nerf is actually very dramatic and I'm still undecided about it. I relied on it quite a bit for approaching enemies from far away. Sometimes you can pretty amazing recoveries with it too.

Maybe now I can focus on more effective approaches and tone it down with the homing attack spam.

 

[Nausicaa]

I think the whole point on 3.0 was FUN stuff. Like, this character was already a beast, now they just made things funner.

I just tech-chased with Side-B > SH U-Air > F-Smash on a Falcon in mid-%, effortlessly.
That crap is so rare in 2.6b, now I don't have to time things so incredibly meticulously to do it. So much funner just being able to DO what I WANT to do.
Fun is good.

 

[Solharath]

Uair erryday. Haven't done any focused training yet, so really just basic impressions. Sonic is better, but something feels off. Probably the increased aerial momentum and stuff messing with how I move. It'll get better with time. I'm ready to start winning with Sonic again.

 

[DireDrop]

I just got back from playing with a friend. The buff on Nair is soooo helpful. It's great for applying pressure and combos out of Side-B really well.

 

[Deathwish238]

I played against my friend yesterday, happy beyond belief. With that being said, I don't exactly know what side B does. If I don't hold side B down on the ground he slides on the ground and if i press A he does that kick. If I hold it he pops up a bit, flashes white. From what I understand the entire moment it flashes white you can jump cancel it?

I understand it aids in recovery with horizontal movement and possibly attacking with the slide kick on to the stage. But what exactly else does it do? I'm speaking more for tech chasing after d throw. I want to be able to hit side B hit my opponent who is lying at a distance from me and do an Ariel. Once the flash goes away I can no longer jump cancel and have to commit to either the kick or just rolling?

 

[DireDrop]

I played against my friend yesterday, happy beyond belief. With that being said, I don't exactly know what side B does. If I don't hold side B down on the ground he slides on the ground and if i press A he does that kick. If I hold it he pops up a bit, flashes white. From what I understand the entire moment it flashes white you can jump cancel it?

I understand it aids in recovery with horizontal movement and possibly attacking with the slide kick on to the stage. But what exactly else does it do? I'm speaking more for tech chasing after d throw. I want to be able to hit side B hit my opponent who is lying at a distance from me and do an Ariel. Once the flash goes away I can no longer jump cancel and have to commit to either the kick or just rolling?

You can't jump cancel side-B until that flash happens, regardless of whether it's in the air or on the ground (though you will need your double jump if you want to do it in the air). Stay grounded with it if you're using it for tech chasing. You can use the jump cancel that happens after the flash to land another JCed grab, a shuffled ariel, or any number of things. I found Nair to work really well.

 

[Nguz95]

Ok guys, I've collected about half the frame data I need so far. After I finish with that I just need to make gifs of all his moves. Would you be fine with me posting the data/numbers first and posting the gifs once I figure out how to view hitboxes on Brawl Box?

First impressions are: Sonic's moves have little startup (duh), and almost every single one has about 10 IASA frames in there, which is actually super nice to know.

 

[Deathwish238]

Just some general questions that I have.

Does doing an Ariel after you use spring still give him a bit more horizontal recovery? No right?

Does dair'ing at a certain height eliminate all lag like in brawl?

I'm a bit confused about when I can attack/grab out of a wavedash. I'm noticing it's after the clouds under his feet go away, and basically it's at the end of the wavedash where I can do a smash or a grab. Was it always this way? I could've sworn I could do an attack out of a wavedash much faster in melee guess I just remember it wrong.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Sonic fun factor got buffed XD. Anyways, I love how up-air and bair can kill so effortlessly now, In 2.6b you had to work your butt off in order for those to kill. Also love how Sonic has better momentum as this can help both his combo game and recovery.

 

[Nazo]

Sonic's better horizontal movement in the air is a big + for me. Now getting back to the stage after a yolo dair is a breeze.

Just some general questions that I have.

Does doing an Ariel after you use spring still give him a bit more horizontal recovery? No right?

Does dair'ing at a certain height eliminate all lag like in brawl?

I'm a bit confused about when I can attack/grab out of a wavedash. I'm noticing it's after the clouds under his feet go away, and basically it's at the end of the wavedash where I can do a smash or a grab. Was it always this way? I could've sworn I could do an attack out of a wavedash much faster in melee guess I just remember it wrong.

Doing an ariel after upB gives you more horizontal distance, yes.
Yes to your second question as well.

I can't answer your last question however. You have to remember that this game isn't a copy of melee with DLC characters. Although there is a lot of imported data directly from melee, the game is still going to feel different for most people mainly due to brawl's aesthetics.

 

[Espy Rose]

So what methods of spinshot are available?
I haven't really looked too much into it, so I'm just hitting up + jump after my downB since none of the Brawl variants I'm accustomed towards work.

I did notice other players pulling it off pretty fast, so I'm inclined to believe that there's a faster means.

 

[DireDrop]

Ok guys, I've collected about half the frame data I need so far. After I finish with that I just need to make gifs of all his moves. Would you be fine with me posting the data/numbers first and posting the gifs once I figure out how to view hitboxes on Brawl Box?

First impressions are: Sonic's moves have little startup (duh), and almost every single one has about 10 IASA frames in there, which is actually super nice to know.

I'd be fine with that. I mean, what's the alternative? You don't post numbers until you have gifs to go along with them? That seems silly to me. More information faster is better.

 

[Player -0]

So what methods of spinshot are available?
I haven't really looked too much into it, so I'm just hitting up + jump after my downB since none of the Brawl variants I'm accustomed towards work.

I did notice other players pulling it off pretty fast, so I'm inclined to believe that there's a faster means.

I think I've been doing it the same way but I use Tap Jump so it's much easier. I just charge my Spindash with 2 B button inputs then hold b and flick my control stick up (I might not even hold B, not sure...). The way I'm doing it I can pull it out decently quick. I might look into what recovery options Sonic has... Probably not though, idk, I'm messing around with a ton of characters.

 

[DoctorBoson]

So what methods of spinshot are available?
I haven't really looked too much into it, so I'm just hitting up + jump after my downB since none of the Brawl variants I'm accustomed towards work.

I did notice other players pulling it off pretty fast, so I'm inclined to believe that there's a faster means.

So, I'm not exactly a brilliant player, but I have my controls set so that Z is jump (grab was relocated to R), so I just double tap the B in the spin dash and press Z just as I release the analog stick from the down position (my timing isn't perfect yet, but I can get it around 20% of the time).

I would try using Jump tap but I really like utilts and usmashes and I'd rather not miss an opportunity to do either by accidentally jumping into somebody.

On an unrelated note, does anyone else do the dtilt-utilt juggle? I find that for heavier characters (this works especially well against a Bowser main that I fight), they just can't navigate out of the hitbox and you can rack up an easy 60% damage by just alternating the tilts, depending on their weight. Lighter characters will be able to bust out between 25% and 40% (though, again, regard what I say with a grain of salt).