Data Sonic and the Book of Matchups

[Ffamran]

I'm starting to think we're being trolled.

I got trolled for trying to have fun with Sonic online. So, shut it!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

There's been like 6 in the past week, this never happens lmao what an absurd coincidence.

I started helping as they came in but I can't juggle that many.

Plus it's the literal worst timing for me as I graduate tomorrow and this whole past week has made me the most MIA from this site due to prioritizing finishing up college nonsense.

Ouch, that must be really painful. Well, if you can't catch the Rosalina vs. Sonic match-up discussion right now, we'll try again at a later date.

 

[Camalange]

I got trolled for trying to have fun with Sonic online. So, shut it!

It's the burden we bare.

Ouch, that must be really painful. Well, if you can't catch the Rosalina vs. Sonic match-up discussion right now, we'll try again at a later date.

Well, hopefully others can help. I'll try to assist in the ones I can, but the timing for all of these to line up at once is incredibly unfortunate for me as I'm basically Smash crippled atm.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Well, hopefully others can help. I'll try to assist in the ones I can, but the timing for all of these to line up at once is incredibly unfortunate for me as I'm basically Smash crippled atm.

Just as a reminder, 5/14 is the last day that Rosalina will be analyzing Sonic. If you can't make it, we will analyze Sonic again at a later date, with new rules all set up.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

Truth be told I was just posting that to troll you guys but then I remembered we were actually discussing sonic so I was all like "LOL what perfect timing".

 

[Camalange]

Truth be told I was just posting that to troll you guys but then I remembered we were actually discussing sonic so I was all like "LOL what perfect timing".

What a cruel world.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

What a cruel world.

Btw Cammy I hope you don't mind but I've taken quite a liking to Sonic in this game so I think I'm gonna be sticking around and helping with disscusions and whatnot. Also helps that i have like no life outside of high school so i'll show up pretty frequently too.

Edit: High School sucks...ALOT!

 

[Ffamran]

It's the burden we bare.

It's not Sonic's standing and moreso I happened to meet people with bad connections, tryhards, and the usual people online.

 

[Camalange]

Btw Cammy I hope you don't mind but I've taken quite a liking to Sonic in this game so I think I'm gonna be sticking around and helping with disscusions and whatnot. Also helps that i have like no life outside of high school so i'll show up pretty frequently too.

Not at all, as long as you don't give me a reason to hate your or if you're HORRIBLY WRONG about EVERYTHING.

Edit: High School sucks...ALOT!

Try college.

I actually rather enjoyed high school. Glad to be done with school forever.

Time to try to work and be miserable for the next 40-60 years.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I refuse to accept that for my life. U shouldnt either

 

[SalsaSavant]

There's been like 6 in the past week, this never happens lmao what an absurd coincidence.

I started helping as they came in but I can't juggle that many.

Plus it's the literal worst timing for me as I graduate tomorrow and this whole past week has made me the most MIA from this site due to prioritizing finishing up college nonsense.

I think most boards are doing things in order of threat.

Sonic is commonly used, so he'll be one of the highest priority for most characters. It's believable that out of 50+ characters, a few would end up getting to him around the same time.

 

[Project SonicSpeed]

Sonic is also a very big threat to alot of characters in this game so it makes sense that people would put him be on the top of the MU discussion list. He has a suprising amount of good match-ups with alot of characters and the bads one really only ever go to like 60:40 which is pretty winnable imo.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Worst top tier ever, tho

 

[Camalange]

I refuse to accept that for my life. U shouldnt either

I was (hopefully) joking.

I think most boards are doing things in order of threat.

Sonic is commonly used, so he'll be one of the highest priority for most characters. It's believable that out of 50+ characters, a few would end up getting to him around the same time.

Believable? It's clearly a conspiracy imo.

Sonic is also a very big threat to alot of characters in this game so it makes sense that people would put him be on the top of the MU discussion list. He has a suprising amount of good match-ups with alot of characters and the bads one really only ever go to like 60:40 which is pretty winnable imo.

Yeah, but Sonic doesn't really dominate any match-ups either. I'd say most characters have tools to deal with him. Plus he loses to most of the characters that are supposedly in his tier. A lot of people that think they lose really badly to Sonic are just the fault of the player themselves.

Worst top tier ever, tho

Hence this...

 

[BlackPhantom]

There's been like 6 in the past week, this never happens lmao what an absurd coincidence.

I started helping as they came in but I can't juggle that many.

Plus it's the literal worst timing for me as I graduate tomorrow and this whole past week has made me the most MIA from this site due to prioritizing finishing up college nonsense.

Don't worry, I already took care of falcon. I'm doing KD3 and rosa right now or later today.

 

[Camalange]

Maybe I can try putting in work on some of these...

hmmMMmMMmmMmMm

EDIT: I contributed to the D3 boards... I might be too late for some others, though.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

though does anyone know which way we should be trying to DI uthrow to avoid uair? I feel like sonic can't get out of it at around 90-110 unless the diddy messes up the timing on his jump > uair. Unless i'm DI'ing it wrong (im trying to DI away from him)

 

[Camalange]

though does anyone know which way we should be trying to DI uthrow to avoid uair? I feel like sonic can't get out of it at around 90-110 unless the diddy messes up the timing on his jump > uair. Unless i'm DI'ing it wrong (im trying to DI away from him)

At low percents, you DI towards where he's facing. At high percents, you DI away from where he's facing.

You'll still get hit at low percents, but you avoid follow-up Uairs. Should only get hit by one.

At high percents, you should have enough time to airdodge, be sent far enough away, or they will follow your DI and take the Fair instead of the Uair.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

then it's probably my DI then or lack thereof as far as reacting fast enough to get away. I know in my matches vs that diddy kong Shin i died multiple times to uthrow > uair even when trying to DI away at high %.

 

[Beets]

SInce the original post is not an organizational one, I hope you won't mind my asking who Sonic has the most trouble dealing with?

 

[SupremeSuperiorStick]

SInce the original post is not an organizational one, I hope you won't mind my asking who Sonic has the most trouble dealing with?

Hey I'm from the Sheik boards, and I was coming here with the same question I was debating with a friend of mine (who has a solid Sonic) about the Sheik Sonic matchup. He claims that Sheik wins it solidly and that it's Sonic's worst matchup, whereas I think that it is still more or less even. Do you guys think Sheik is your worst matchup? How close is it?

 

[SmashGamer112]

Hey I'm from the Sheik boards, and I was coming here with the same question I was debating with a friend of mine (who has a solid Sonic) about the Sheik Sonic matchup. He claims that Sheik wins it solidly and that it's Sonic's worst matchup, whereas I think that it is still more or less even. Do you guys think Sheik is your worst matchup? How close is it?

I've had trouble with Sheik, but I think the style of play matters. If you are playing a sheik who prefers to be defensive, it's difficult for sonic to get in, (especially now, considering the fact that Burning Spin Dash doesn't beat needles after patch 1.0.6). Sonic is forced to approach and at high %'s it only takes like 1 uair in the air to kill with not much reward for sonic. Aggressive Sheik is just as difficult for me, but I think I can get in more as baiting is easier.

Sonic's grabs help quite a bit in this matchup for spacing and sheik is pretty tall so she isn't too hard to combo, but edge guarding is annoying because of sheik's recovery moves and her aerials being so fast.

 

[Rucent]

So.. As of right now, we have five Characters discussed in the MU thread. These include: Shiek, Luigi, Sonic, Rosalina, and Diddy.

I'll just show previous posts for each matchup that should be noted.

• : http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-and-the-book-of-matchups-ch-5-diddy-kong.390575/#post-18547334

They work pretty damn well on her.

Fthrow > Bouncing Fish is pretty guaranteed at lower percents and on Sonic it's from the 0-25% range. If a Sheik grabs you at 0% and does the fthrow > bouncing fish, it does about 18-19% damage.

As for edgeguarding, and this is from my experience against Camalange, Sheik does really well when she can create a wall of fairs and bairs when Sonic is trying to return to the stage. Her nair, fair, and bair have great priority and if spaced well, beats out Sonic's spin dash (and other notable aerials) quite easily. Of course it's not like she's Brawl MK so of course Sonic's aerials aren't completely useless or anything and with the right spacing on Sonic's part (and lack thereof from Sheik) you can still be a threat, but Sheik has great priority in general. Also be wary as bouncing fish itself is a fantastic edgeguarding tool as it comes out fast, has a trajectory that can be altered, beats A LOT of moves and sends people far away from the stage. Her needles are great at eating double jumps and when in kill percents, they do a great job of giving Sheik a bouncing fish opportunity as the move lasts long enough to pop the opponent in the air just long enough. This isn't exactly guaranteed, but it's another thing to watch out for. And if recovering low with Spring, Sheik can do jumping needles which are thrown in a diagonal trajectory facing downwards that can stuff Sonic if he doesn't sweet spot the edge. Sonic can not be predictable when it comes to recovering.

The problem with airdodging Sheik's aerials, whether it's edgeguarding or just in a juggling situation in general, is that Sheik eats airdodge for breakfast. Her fthrow setups aren't feared because of her damage per se, it's because her setups lead into a 60/40 situation in her favor. Her fair is so freaking fast that the move ends fast enough to punish an airdodge with yet another fair. Sheik WANTS you to airdodge in these situations, she thrives off of it.

Sonic can be juggled fairly easily from a fthrow >fair setup. Sheik can do a reset after the first or maybe even second fair and can usually get a ftilt out which can build more damage and also lead into another grab due to the lack of knockback the move has. I'm not saying you should willingly take the bouncing fish as it does 19% which is pretty good damage, but I'm just giving you an overall view of the entire situation she creates from her fthrow.

You can see in this video of False vs. 6wx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oWaBtFYBAI the very first few seconds False lands the fthrow > bouncing fish combo so you can see how it works, the damage that is dealt, and where it leaves both characters in the situation. Ultimately it's up to your judgement on how you want to DI and which follow up you would rather take.

And yeah if you DI away from Sheik, that pretty much gives her the bouncing fish .

If this is what you believe then you're falling right into their trap.

Lawz covered a lot of what could be said, but as far as things that Sheik has a hard time dealing with…

Uair. Our Uair is so good in general, but in this match-up it's one of the things we need the most. Sheik's landing options aren't terrible purely because of bair/fair/nair being so fast, but Sonic can really juggle her so effectively and prevent her from landing with Uair since her Dair is extremely niche and she can't assert any disjoints below her that could beat Uair. As mentioned before, you can Uthrow into Uairs or Spring Uairs and it will work until pretty high percents for guaranteed damage.

We're also not as screwed by needles as some character, unless you're an idiot who tries to spin charge directly at her all the time.

Also, if Sheik doesn't get her BGF or an early gimp, Sonic can live pretty long and kill her far sooner. Her biggest weakness is that she can wrack up damage for days but has an issue landing the KO, so Sonic can really exploit this due to being a pretty mid-weight character with great recovery tools and overall movement options to keep her at bay. I'd say this is a match-up where being an annoying hedgehog is what you'll need to survive long against her so you can try to land a Fsmash or more likely Bthrow to kill her before she can to you.

Sheik:

• take her to stages like Lylat, Halberd, Castle Siege, DK Jungle.. you know, where her Needles' trajectory will suffer due to the terrain not being entirely flat;
• Don't overuse the Spring while onstage because her speed and aerials are definitely going to be a pain in the *** when combined with our delightful landing options.

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• : http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-and-the-book-of-matchups-ch-5-diddy-kong.390575/#post-18599388

Luigi vs sonic basically comes down to baiting out luigi's options, and ensuring he can't find room to gain momentum. I usually powershield fireballs bait him to run in for a grab and toss out either jab, ftilt (to break out of grabs because tey don't have armor anymore) or grab myself (our grab range is better than luigi's). Sonic's most optical distance is within dash attack range (hust using the attack to measure distance in this case). at this range we can react to fireballs, and still mount our pressure game with spin attacks and run in short hop fairs.

our goal during the MU is push him to the end of the stage to ensure hehas little room to work with and considering our fair, dthrow and spin attacks can do that very well luigi can have a lot of trouble getting in on us. Though if luigi does get in and manages to get a grab your options after he dthrows you will determine whether he racks up a ton of %, ends your stock or whiffs.
at low % off dthrow i usually hold towards luigi so that i can only eat bair or one fair. higher % sonic would want to hold away and just eat the fairs. luigi can tornado us out of dthrow but only if they read our DI perfectly. if your holding away luigi needs to run in for the tornado which gives us time to potentially escape. try not to spring out of desperation as your basically asing him to wait for your landing with a upsmash or another grab.

If sonic forces the off stage game we can simply go deep with a spin attack jump and either eat the missile (depending on your % this migh not be a wise decision), or drop a spring forcing luigi to have to maneuver around it and due to his horrible air speed this usually forces him to eat the spring with missile or float and waste his double jump to get around it. Our spring eats tornado as does fair and bair. our spring can also interrupt luigi's up b as it doesn't gain invincibility until like frame 5 or so.

stages like lylat, BF, town and city are good for us because it allows us to fool luigi into trying to land on platforms to escape our juggles. Luigi's nair interrupts a lot of our follow-ups such as uthrow spring uair so using that as a KO option is usually not a good idea. As if he hits with air he can double jump tornado to KO us for attempting to uair him. Baiting out nair and tornado after you get luigi off the ground is key to maintaining control of luigi's momentum.

So long as you ensure to keep luigi airborne for as long as possible and force him to the ledge and from there offstage and harass him with springs and fair/bair offstage you should win. The MUs definitely in our favor but if we let luigi grab us continuously and abuse spin attacks recklessly luigi's going to shut us down quick.

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• : http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...s-ch-5-diddy-kong.390575/page-2#post-18652035

The Sonic mirror has a really weird dynamic. So much so that I'm going to have trouble putting it into words...

For example, sometimes you can just opt to purposely clank spins if they're going for it too so you can see how they react. If they go for a tilt or something, you know you can probably just jab afterward and win the frame game. It's a lot of just knowing Sonic's movement and going around it with your same tools, lol.

I'll purposely miss sometimes just to condition... Like, I'll spin over their spin if I opt for the clank just to be confusing.

As what was already said, Sonic actually juggles Sonic pretty efficiently. He's relatively easy to combo, lol. Once you confirm a hit you can pretty much keep it going with little fear.

Edgeguarding Sonic is kind of stupid, but can be effective. You're highly unlikely to gimp him, but Sonic can pursue himself so... Dropping springs if they recover low just for free damage, Bairing them, punishing unsafe spins for recovery, etc.

As most mirrors, it really comes down to playing the player. Use what you know about Sonic, see what they know about Sonic, how they apply it, then find your strategy to deal with theirs.

I play really patient in the ditto. It's stupid because a lot of time can be spent just seeing two blue balls bounce around each other without hitting. I very rarely commit to KO options, as Sonic can punish himself for whiffing. Bthrow and Uair kills are probably the most reliable.

I never ever really feel like I have momentum in the ditto. I just go for making good choices and taking what I can get. Force them into bad positions and capitalize appropriately.

If someone commits to a spin first, the other can just beat them with a stronger Spin Dash, lol.

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• : http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...s-ch-5-diddy-kong.390575/page-2#post-18721410

I've played against a lot of Rosalina's but not sure I have too much to offer here. I definitely feel it's a match up I'm forced to take my time in. Being above her is highly undesirable because of usmash,utilt, uair. She's definitely not fun to fight against in the air as pretty much all of her aerials can space you out really well. Be careful about what options you select when jumping out of spin dash/charge. I personally like to get Luma out of the way in this matchup as Luma can stop SD/SC with star bits. I aim to punish dash attacks and I'm sure it's obvious but don't go for pummels if you get the grab. Maybe one but I've noticed that squeezing in one is sometimes pushing it if Luma is out. I'm personally not afraid to use homing attack in this MU to apply shield pressure even if it will hit Luma, but that may not necessarily be the wisest. Either way, use it sparingly and just take your time. Hope that helps some.

Hey guys! Yesterday, I won my first tournament at Genericon! For Winners Finals and Grand Finals, I went up agianst Rosalina and Luma and I think I could help.

For starters, if you ever happen to get Rosalina to use the Up B, ALWAYS PUNISH IT, ESPICIALLY IF SHES USING IT TO GET TO THE LEDGE. What I have done in one of the battles is run off the stage and perform the Bair before she hits the ledge, causing her to fly into the stage wall and get stage spiked. Thanks to Sonic Orochi on the ledgesnapping video, which made me know about that stuff.

(UNCONFIRMED) According to the Rosalina Player I went agianst, if Sonic's hitbox is active during is uSmash and touches Rosalina as she activates the dair, Sonic will always get the garunteed hit.

As mentioned above in other's posts, NEVER stay directly above Rosalina, ESPICIALLY IF LUMA IS WITH HER. The Rosalina player told me that luma's hitbox in uair directs the opponent to Rosalina's hitbox, which causes the intense knock back. This gives even more reason to destroy Luma.

Eliminating Luma is much more easier with Sonic than any other character IMO. Mainly because SD/SC will always hit Luma if it is next to Rosalina and she shields. Kinzer has also mentioned the spring, which also helped out a bit with pressuring/escape. My way of returning to the stage from above is by using dair, but only if it is high enough to where I will be able to auto-cancel the end lag when I land. I also air dodge as I fall fast/fast fall, because the distance I travel between the beginning and end of the air dodge's invincibility frames is very long, great for when Rosalina & Luma try to follow upwards with up air.

What I did in the match up a lot was when I launched Rosalina away from Luma, I focused on either killing luma, or knocking it off the stage.

Whenever I grabbed Rosalina then threw her, if Luma was close by I would usually get hit by it before I could do anything else. So mid way into the set I decided that throwing Rosalina while distancing myself from Luma would be the best way to get around this. For instance, if I grabbed Rosalina and Luma was right in front of me, I would use the bThrow to distance myself. If he was behind me however, I would use the fThrow, because that one ends the fastest out of the other throws allowing me to potentially shield, space with fTilt, or run away after throwing.

The last thing I can think of from the match up is to probably avoid stages with a lot of platforms, espicially ones that are low enough for Rosalina to quickly uair/fair/utilt from. Low Ceilings can also potentially be an issue. The one and only time Town & City was played, I was bodied so hard.
​

I hope this information helps! :D

from my experience in the rosalina MU it really comes down to how well your spacing when she has luma and when she doesn't have luma. We can get rid of luma insanely fast through a quick ftilt, dsmash, nair or even using our spin attacks. Most Rosalina players fish for grabs so they can setup a throw for uair pressure so making sure to weave out of her grab range is key. We also should be trying to bait her to commit with tilts and dash attack. Her ftilt while it has good range has enough cooldown for us to approach with a dash attack which if luma is present knocks luma away if all the hits connect.

dealing with her in the air it's best to approach from off to her sides this way she has to commit to either a nair, bair or fair all of which have landing lag and in nairs case is easily beaten out by our bair as well as slow enough to react to. Respecting her close range capabilities is key to ensuring that you don't get caught especially when lumas jabs are annoying to deal with. We also have to worry about landing on she usmash which thanks to luma has a lot more range than what we have to try to intercept her as we're landing. In most cases if she gets us into the air your sole goal should be to try and land as quickly as possible.

In a situation where luma isn't around is when i'd say our rush down works very well. Rosalina's aren't going to want to engage vs us if luma isn't their to eat hitboxes and wither their damage down as well as not being able to slow down out spin attacks. In most cases if they do choose to approach they usually either grab, dash attack or try to run and do pivot Ftilts until luma respawns.

I haven't played many rosalina's but this is just what i've learned through both observing other sonic's play rosalina as well as what ever little experience i've had in playing them.

or copy paste...?

could also watch 6wx vs dabuz. think they've at least played twice, literally about an hour worth of footage. not even joking.

i'll even be nice and link them here before you complain about having to type things twice

Apex 2015 - 6WX (Sonic) Vs. PL XFIRE | Dabuz (Rosalina) SSB4 Losers Semis - Smash For Wii U


XSmash 2 Winners Finals - Dabuz (Rosalina) vs 6WX (Sonic)


XSmash 2 Grand Finals - Dabuz (Rosalina) vs 6WX (Sonic)

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• : http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...s-ch-5-diddy-kong.390575/page-3#post-18858185

  [*]
  

  • Don't get grabbed;
  • Our banana game is pretty dope. Train some jump cancelled item throws and go for broke;
  • Spin Rolls will cancel on ground bananas, so be careful;
  • Don't get grabbed;
  • If he recovers low: Spring (good Diddy mains will curve the up B away from the ledge and only aim at it at the very end, so be prepared, just in case);
  • If he recovers high: Bair;
  • DI the dthrow UPWARDS and away when at higher percentages;
  • Don't get grabbed;
  • Avoid: BF, T&C, Halberd, KJ64;
  • Okay, I guess: Delfino, Smashville;
  • Preferably go to: FD, Lylat.

I think bananas could be useful if you happen to grab them. They could be used instead of the spring when knocking the barrel rocket from Diddy. Not to mention, he wouldn't be able to pull out another one until the current one is gone.

If you grab Diddy while he is in the Banana tossing animation, before he tosses it, it ends up disappearing. Like you can see him taking out the banana, but it will disappear if you grab him before he actually tosses it.

Also, down throw could be a lot more helpful in this matchup because if you use it on Diddy near the ledge, it will send him downward off the stage, causing him to either moneky flip or up b, which as others mentioned, you could use spring to gimp with.

 

[Camalange]

hey @ Rucent do you want to take over this thread please or

 

[Rucent]

I can try. xD For now, which character should we go into next?

 

[Pivot]

How about villager? I really struggle with him considering he has so many options against Sonic's spindash.

 

[Camalange]

Normally we put it through a poll. Rucent or myself can get something like this moving, if he is so inclined.

@ Rucent , check your PMs.

 

[Rucent]

I just made a poll to the next character.

http://smashboards.com/threads/storybook-series-ballet-ch-6-voting-open.404079/

Vote who you think we should discuss about!
In the meantime, I'm will probably make summaries for the previous matchups..

 

[Camalange]

I just made a poll to the next character.

http://smashboards.com/threads/storybook-series-ballet-ch-6-voting-open.404079/

Vote who you think we should discuss about!
In the meantime, I'm will probably make summaries for the previous matchups..

Solid.

If you want to work on the write-ups, maybe do it in a text file or something until you get ownership of this thread so you can add it later once that kicks in.

 

[Rucent]

Solid.

If you want to work on the write-ups, maybe do it in a text file or something until you get ownership of this thread so you can add it later once that kicks in.

Alright! Thank you! :D

 

[vegeta18]

Can someone make a how to play sonic guide? I feel there are tons of guides about specific techniques but nothing just covering how to play the character in general. I good video sonic guide video would be awesome

 

[Camalange]

Can someone make a how to play sonic guide? I feel there are tons of guides about specific techniques but nothing just covering how to play the character in general. I good video sonic guide video would be awesome

I think I'm going to start covering certain aspects of Sonic's game as How-Tos, and not just tutorials on techniques.

Examples would be the mentality and conditioning that goes into Spin Dash Shield Cancels, approach options, etc.

 

[SmashGamer112]

I think I'm going to start covering certain aspects of Sonic's game as How-Tos, and not just tutorials on techniques.

Examples would be the mentality and conditioning that goes into Spin Dash Shield Cancels, approach options, etc.

I'd love to see this.

All your videos & tutorials you make are always very informative and help me a-lot with my Sonic game.

 

[Camalange]

I'd love to see this.

Then maybe that'll start to be more of a focus moving forward…

All your videos & tutorials you make are always very informative and help me a-lot with my Sonic game.

Thank you, I'm glad I can help.

 

[vegeta18]

I think I'm going to start covering certain aspects of Sonic's game as How-Tos, and not just tutorials on techniques.

Examples would be the mentality and conditioning that goes into Spin Dash Shield Cancels, approach options, etc.

yesss something like that would be perfect, i understand combos and techniques of sonic on their own, but something about the mentality, spacing, neutral game, mind games, and all the stuff you just mentioned would be amazingly helpful.

EDIT:I just noticed i mistakenly wrote this in the mu thread, meant for it to be in the q&a, glad i got a good response anyways though.

 

[FullMoon]

Hey guys, the Greninja boards are going to discuss Sonic and since he's one of our bad MUs, we really would like some input: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...ad-week-6-revisions-i-5-25-6-1.369356/page-21

We're mainly looking into how to beat Sonic than trying to figure out who beats who, so we would be really grateful if you guys could give us some advice, we don't mind if you give us an opinion on who wins the MU though.

 

[Rucent]

Hey guys, the Greninja boards are going to discuss Sonic and since he's one of our bad MUs, we really would like some input: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...ad-week-6-revisions-i-5-25-6-1.369356/page-21

We're mainly looking into how to beat Sonic than trying to figure out who beats who, so we would be really grateful if you guys could give us some advice, we don't mind if you give us an opinion on who wins the MU though.

I guess I'll run over there, real fast.

 

[Rucent]

It's time to start Pikachu's discussion! There's actually quite a bit I'd like to say about this matchup, since I play the Electric mouse myself.

For starters, I reconmend stages with little to no platforms, mainly because Pikachu can benefit from them all via Quick Attack Ledge Canceling (QALC for short), thus weakening his edgeguarding and mobility somewhat. QALC allows pikachu to end his Quick Attack animation instantly with no end lag, allowing him to follow up with almost anything. Stages to avoid the most is probably BattleField and Lylat Cruise. No matter what stage, Pikachu can still use QALC, but we can try to minimalize the amount of places he can use it. Pikachu also has Quick Attack Canels (QAC for short), which only work on slopes and on platforms.

Why did I start off with stages and Quick Attack? Because, QA is Pikachu's best special. It allows Pikachu to get around the stage very fast, while having an active hitbox. And with QA Ledge Canceling and QAC, it makes it even better and faster to get from point A to point B, throw a combo, setup, or punish, then get out if need be. This is also Pikachu's recovery move, and it does that job amazingly. Respect this special out of any other move he has, because this single handely allows Pikachu to have so many more options in battle.

Typically, from what I seen of Pikachu *Cough* or ESAM *Cough*, Pikachu should be played rushdown (aggressive). He probably is the best rushdown character in the game. He has amazing combos that start with either a grab, his down tilt, up tilt, or QA. He has a great amount of finishers/KO power, from the almighty Thunder, his Smash Attacks, Dash Attack, Fair & Dair (Off Stage), and Bair (Edge Guarding). And set ups typically are Up Throw, Jab Locks, and QA. Expect seeing a lot of short hops, espicially short hop Fair and Nair.

Let's talk about Thunder real quick. As many of you know, in Smash 4, Pikachu's Thunder now has a Spike (Thunder Cloud). If you get spiked by Thunder, and Pikachu is directly under it, you will get launched very far, and at higher % range, this can kill.

• Pikachu usually sets Thunder up with Up Throw, so when you get Up Throwed, DI instantly to the left or right, and prepare to air dodge if Pikachu tries to follow you for it.
  • If you do get hit by Thunder, but not get spiked, you will be launched upwards, and depending on your percent and where you were, you could lose a stock. Pikachu can get this effect by Up Throwing, jumping, then Thunder at high percents.
• Pikachu can also use Thunder as an edgeguarding tool.
  • Pikachu can jump off stage and B-Reverse Thunder.
  • Pikachu can also jump off the ledge and get under the stage, Thunder, then QA back on stage.
• Pikachu can also use Thunder as a protective wall when coming back stage.

Speaking of edge guarding, Pikachu is the best at doing so. Not only does he have Thunder as an edge guarding tool, his jab on the ledge can also stop players from snapping to it. Down Tilt and Thunder Jolt (Neutral B) also do a great job at this. And with QALC, Pikachu is able to throw out his arieals - and Thunder - on the fly. He can easy Stage Spike using Bair and Dair, and can even use Skull Bash (Side B) for that as well.

Pikachu can also B-Reverse Thunder Jolt. Thunder Jolt can stop our Spin Dash and Spin Charge, Along with his jab.

I personally believe this will be one of Sonic's hardest match ups, and that Pikachu will probably always have an advantage agianst him. But don't worry, He may have Quick Attack, but we have Extreme Speed.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I dont play Pika, but hes not really great at KOing im pretty sure.
His Dsmash his pretty weak, so idk if that should truly count as a KO move.
Mostly he gets his kills offstage right? thats where he can get his kills mainly, but some characters(like Zelda love her FW ^_^)
have very safe recoveries that allow them to easily bypass being edge guard(mostly) with the main exception being the 1 frame ledge vulnerability thing.

Um sorry if this is a weird question, but some specials autosweetspot the ledge? i have heard ways you can make it so they dont by holding down or something?

 

[RunawayPanda]

I dont play Pika, but hes not really great at KOing im pretty sure.
His Dsmash his pretty weak, so idk if that should truly count as a KO move.
Mostly he gets his kills offstage right? thats where he can get his kills mainly, but some characters(like Zelda love her FW ^_^)
have very safe recoveries that allow them to easily bypass being edge guard(mostly) with the main exception being the 1 frame ledge vulnerability thing.

Um sorry if this is a weird question, but some specials autosweetspot the ledge? i have heard ways you can make it so they dont by holding down or something?

Ur in the wrong place for that question since this the sonic discussion thread, but yes u can miss the ledge with every recovery if u do them wrong.
I play pika but don't have too much experience in the MU, but I'll base it off of what I've seen from esam vs staticmanny and what I've seen from the characters seprately. Depending on what point you are in during spin dash, pika may be able to beat it out with QA, so be careful. Some pikas might try to camp you out for a while with t jolts and if you catch us jumping with one and its miss spaced, you should definitely be able to get your bnb combos. Pikachu is lighter, so even with your back throw nerfed, it will kill pretty well. Pikachu does have trouble killing sometimes but if you do a bad spring on stage without thinking about thunder, or you are recovering low, ur most likely gonna lose a stock (unless the edge guard is into a stage spike, if you tech it, you get another chance). That's about all I have.