Data Sonic and the Book of Matchups

[ROOOOY!]

Neither character is gonna want to approach, getting an early lead is pretty much going to dictate the match. Wish that fox was as easy to harass offstage as he was in bawrl.

 

[Spirst]

Mewtwo boards will be going over Sonic as part of this weeks matchup discussion. In the interest of avoiding biases and getting discussion going from both parties, I'm inviting you all to try and contribute what you can.

<- Click to Teleport to the MU thread.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I just visited. Only thing I saw about Sonic was to use nair because Sonic players "don't know how to block". Was gonna contribute but it seems everything's covered.

 

[Rucent]

Its time to Barrel Roll over to the vs Match Up!

And to vote for next week's MU, click on this link!

http://smashboards.com/threads/storybook-series-ballot-ch-10-voting-open.407308/

 

[StriderAaron360]

I have tons of Yoshi experience with arguably the best Yoshi in Michigan.

Yoshi's nair, jabs, neutral b and grab outright stop our spin dash approaches. And if you manage to hit his shield, his ridiculous aerial mobility allows him to easily punish our jump cancelled spin dash. His moveset in general is overall very safe, so neutral can be very tough.

His eggs are high in priority and can beat our spin dash as well. The best thing to do with eggs I find is to just powershield them. They simply out-prioritize our whole moveset.

Air to air, Yoshi takes it. His eggs (which can act like some sort of shield) along with his nair, bair, fair, dair, neutral b, and down b outright beat our aerials. His superior air movement, jump super armor, high speed and priority aerials allow him to easily control the skies. He has a fantastic anti air kit as well with usmash, eggs, and uair. He's also really, REALLY heavy, so killing him can be more of a headache than usual.

If you want to do good in this matchup, patience is a virtue. Sonic has to play safer than ever, picking at Yoshi rather than rushing him down. Conditioning and confusing him with spin cancels (vertical spin jump, shield, spring) is especially helpful in this matchup. We need to frustrate him with our superior ground speed and get him to come to us. His approaches (dash attack, falling dair/nair, dash grab) can be punished, so baiting him and messing up his spacing is what we need to do. Keep your cards close to your chest and don't reveal your kill mixups too early. Just pick at him as safely as you can and don't ever over commit when you have momentum.

As far as killing him, fsmash seems like the strongest option, as Yoshi is very heavy. Usmash can work but at higher percents than usual. Footstooling works well on him, as it overrides the double jump armor and leaves him pretty helpless. Fresh bair could work as well if you're fast and sneaky about it.

Overall, I'd personally say this matchup is in Yoshi's favor. His superior air movement, high priority attacks, kill power, and weight make things hard for us. It's definitely doable, but it requires a whole lot of thinking and patience.

 

[jordanm43444]

Im with StriderAaron on this. The MU can be tough for Sonic for a lot of reasons, I have fought Scotlands best Yoshi on quite a number of occasions now and I am getting closer to cracking the MU (Though @ Kupo Rose ) is MUCH closer than I am (heck hes probably there) but ill list off what I know.

1) Get used to not being able to punish Yoshi a lot, his insane air mobility makes him so free to just jump in, FAir your shield and get away with no cost.
2) If you EVER hit Yoshis shield you will 90% of the time get punished by something hard, whether it be a NAir into more followups or USmash OoS (Which is also stupidly safe)
3) Egg Tosses are punishable if you avoid the egg, if the Yoshi is just tossing eggs at you from a distance dont be afraid to just run under the trajectory of the egg and punish him for it, we arent the fastest thing alive for nothing!
4) Get ready to feel salty about KOing Yoshi, he survives to stupidly high percents due to being significantly heavy and almost untouchable offstage if they use a jump because of his armour. Our best kill options are as Strider stated, FSmash and footstools.

Might have just repeated everything above but...oops.

 

[StriderAaron360]

@ jordanm43444 Nothing wrong with repeating points, my friend! Repetition is the mother of retention haha. And yeah we are fast enough to get under him when he tosses the egg, which leaves him open for a sec. Uair and nair become very important tools in this matchup for sure.

Another thing I forgot to mention was stage selection. Personally, I ban Battlefield and Battlefield-esque stages (Dreamland, Lylat, etc.) because of the platforms. It can really mess up Sonic's flow and give Yoshi more opportunities to control the air with eggs and hitboxes.

Smashville: The universal go-to stage. Great for Sonic because of the flat space he has to roam. The moving platform can also give you a chance to reset the pace of the match without disrupting your flow too much. The horizontal blast zone is relatively close as is the vertical one. This can be good for us as our go-to kill moves for this matchup are fsmash, bair, and back throw. However, this also means that Yoshi has an easier time killing us off the top. This stage is up to your discretion but I think it's one of Sonic's favorites regardless.

Town and City: Great for similar reasons as Smashville. Although once again, this is up to you. The blast zones are slightly closer than SV's.

Final Destination (Omega): A balanced stage with medium blast zones. I don't think it favors either party heavily, so it's a nice all around place to go. Yoshis will probably ban it though as most people do that fight Sonic. If it's open though, I'd go for it.

Duck Hunt: A weird one, but I've grown to like it. It's similar to FD, as it is flat and has similar blast zones, but it has a high place to reset the match (the tree) and the DH dog coming up from the ground can sometimes catch an airborne Yoshi off guard. It's not terribly disruptive but it can bring an element of randomness to a match that its normal counterpart FD doesn't deliver. Up to you.

As far as transforming stages, I seriously think there's potential in Castle Seige, Skyloft, and maybe even Delfino Plaza. The transformations can force playstyle changes which can sometimes work to our advantage. There's alot of testing that can be done here, so I guess it comes down to preference and experience. But as far as Halberd, nah. The neutral transformation is just too small and it has the lowest ceiling in the game I think (ok for us, but better for Yoshi).

If you guys have good experiences with these transforming stages, I'd really like to hear them!

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I don't have much knowledge about the MU, so.. yeah. Do Dair spike through his Illusion, though. So satisfying.

Anyway, ..

• Beware of the double jump cancel+Uair. Its range is deceptively large;
• Egg Toss is a pain. We can, as already discussed, run below it and punish, but don't count on it too much. Powershielding it would be the best approach;
• His down B has some hitboxes out after he hits the floor. Wait a bit before running in to punish a whiffed one. Also watch out for a slide if he ever does it on a slope;
• When on a platform, he'll probably try to either use USmash or Dair. If he uses Dair, watch out for the Uair that he can pull off after all of Dair's hits. **** his Dair. Seriously;
• Our Dash Attack's first hits are awesome to edgeguard him: http://youtu.be/uHoJ2PdWmGI?t=6m21s
• Apparently, he can't do anything after his throws, so, yeah;
• Watch out for B wavebounces. And for B near the ledge;
• When having to mash out of the egg move, don't hold down when offstage..
• After shielding his Dash Attack, he'll probably end on the other side of your shield. Remember this when going for the punish;
• Lylat seems like a good choice, due to his recovery, but watch out for his USmash, down B and Dair when on a platform;
• No Battlefield;
• ..

 

[Kupo Rose]

@ jordanm43444 Espy helped me with Yoshi. I still dont quite know the matchup tbh lol.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I know you guys are in the middle of the Green Barney MU, but I need to clarify some things on Fox that Skarfelt said.

I'm also commenting on non-customs because Ontario doesn't like Customs in their nationals / majors. That, and I personally don't care to support the customs metagame anyways, I don't like playing with them on and I won't involve myself in anything involving customs.

So Fox (Customs off):

vs
Sonic's one of the only characters in the game who can punish lasers from across the stage which puts Fox in the unfortunate position of being nearly forced to approach like most characters against Sonic.

Fox can actually shoot one laser without getting punished, as long as he's two BF platform distance away. He'll be able to shield even if Sonic spinshots or uses homing attack.

Shooting more than that means Fox is getting greedy and Sonic can just run up punish while Fox is putting away his laser gun. Watch how Fox shoots lasers and the distance between you and him before you think of running up to him.

Sonic may be faster than Fox in movement, but Fox has the slightly faster neutral game. Fox can toss out his fast moves (jab, u-tilt, dash attack) before Sonic tosses his out. That said, your neutral game slightly outranges Fox's.

Not sure if this is universal but Down Throw is trash against Fox as he can just immediately tech in place and jab before you have a chance to do anything.

This depends on how well an opponent can tech Sonic's D-throw, which is not an easy tech for Fox. I'd say it's better to see how on point an opponent is at teching first. If you determine he won't get the tech, then D-throw is effective since Sonic can read his getup option and react accordingly.

Other good throws against Fox are U-throw and F-throw. Both are fast and you can force bad DI / vectoring with F-throw if you think he's holding away to escape a follow up from U-throw. And of course, you have B-throw which even with the nerf still destroys Fox at high % if you toss him offstage with it.

Fox's jab combos on Sonic aren't infinite but we can do jab jab up smash fairly easily at KO percentage - I believe jab jab grab is true as well but don't quote me on that.

Sonic can escape with the Spring Jump Up-B. Unlike Mario, Sonic doesn't go into free fall after using Up-B as well. So you are quite capable of moving and defending yourself with aerials if Fox goes chasing after you.

Since Sonic is capable of escaping, jab -> jab -> whatever Fox does isn't actually true, but it's certainly hard to react to. Either way, Sonic doesn't get jab locked.

Eh in general Fox has to play super boringly and attempt to make Sonic come to him in a haphazard way. He has basically no moves that beat Sonic's Side B and trading with it seems to put Sonic at frame advantage.

Actually, Fox can interrupt Spin Dash / Charge using his safe moves: jab, F-tilt, and U-tilt. I know that F-tilt straight up beats it, while Fox just clanks with the other moves. Fox Illusion also beats Sonic out of his ball form, but this obviously isn't that safe even when used in sh.

That said, it's Sonic, you are capable of cancelling the charge or spinshotting and mindgaming Fox in whatever ways you can think of. Just be patient.

You want Fox to either be far enough way where you force pressure with Side B or close enough that you can force pressure with grabs, jabs and patient damage. Just remain patient and don't do silly things.

I agree overall, this is a patient matchup. Not just for Sonic, but for Fox as well. Both characters don't want to be near each other.

 

[Camalange]

Jab > Jab definitely works on Sonic. Spring only gets us out if the Fox messes up or perhaps maybe at a very high percent. If anything, Fox can definitely confirm jabs into Usmash for kills anyway.

Even if spring gets us out, it's still not incredibly ideal as we're back to being above Fox... Which you never want to be. Uair and Usmash are scary. Fortunately, we can still footstool, aerial, etc. in hopes to get our footing back.

Fox beats Sonic in neutral. As said, his jabs, tilts, smashes, etc. are all generally faster and safer than ours, and confirm into combo strings far more easily if we're in his face. Also, the notion that Sonic forces Fox to approach I don't think I really agree with. Even if his projectile has no knockback, it's still a zoning and psychological tool. Granted, not nearly as good as it used to be, but still there. I wouldn't give a huge advantage to either character in that regard. Fox's approaches are pretty linear, but his neutral is safer whereas Sonic has a lot of mix-ups but Fox can eat them all if he reacts accordingly.

Sonic's strengths in this match-up are his overall mobility and edgeguarding game. Fox is much harder to edgeguard though since Brawl, as Side-B got buffed in all regards. Higher priority which makes it harder to beat out with safe moves, and the ability to Up-B afterword.

However, Fox really can't edeguard Sonic at all. Fox will be playing the ground game and just opt to punish how you choose to get back on stage. They can't really pursue or go deep at all.

I also think this match-up only gets harder the more we get nerfed. Losing KO power in Usmash, but more importantly, Bthrow, gives Fox the advantage there. Going against a character who can confirm a jab to a kill while we have to get a Bair or Fsmash punish is definitely work.

It's not at all a hopeless match-up as Fox is fun to juggle and we have the egeguarding advantage. Plus our mobility just makes it an overall more annoyance for them to be consistent, so they really can't mess up. We might have an easier time with our spins on shield because using SDJ on confirm will make it hard for them to punish since Uair is very linear and spacing precise, and his Bair, especially OoS, leaves a lot to be desired.

I don't have as much experience in the match-up as I'd like to, but I played Dugan who won the arcadian bracket at Smash Attack recently.

@Espy plays Megafox a lot so I'd like to hear his thoughts.

I'd give this one to Fox. If customs are on, it's still in Fox's favor and probably even worse for us as he gains a 50/50 airdodge punish mix-up with a custom Up-B that kills you with a delayed start-up or Uair that comes out instantly. Plus, his lasers actually become good.

--



Coming soon. Match-up experience from a loss early career to Delta-cod and a recent win against iRJ.

 

[ToonKake]

Its time to Barrel Roll over to the vs Match Up!

And to vote for next week's MU, click on this link!

http://smashboards.com/threads/storybook-series-ballot-ch-10-voting-open.407308/

Just like the Capt v Sonic Matchup i LOVEE the Sonic Yoshi Matchup Due to me & my Main Rival Clash with Sonic V Yoshi Multiple Times

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Avoid platform stages and force Yoshi to fight on the ground. Shield his aerials and punish when possible. I'll go in depth about fair: If Yoshi is spaced perfectly it (maybe) can't be punished on shield, however if it's whiffed of if you run in to avoid it being spaced well it's punishable.

Eggs are useless here. Sonic can simply shield them or punish Yoshi for using them by using his insane speed.

Sonic has trouble killing Yoshi if Yoshi plays safe. Luckily for you Yoshi struggles even harder if Sonic plays safe. Seriously! Shield alone beats all options he has at kill %. I'll go over his options against shield:
Down B - roll away or spot dodge. Easy punish
dair - might shield poke you, doesn't kill
egg lay - 21 frames of startup, you should be able to react to this and spot dodge > punish
grab - doesn't kill, doesn't combo, builds rage

People often have a misconception that Yoshi has god tier frame data and is unpunishable so here have some frame data. Yoshi's attacks can be punished (except maybe a perfectly spaced frame perfect landing nair).

Play safe, keep a % lead to force Yoshi to fight you, don't get hit by his kill moves and don't throw out punishable kill moves (imo just go for Bthrow kills every stock) and watch Yoshi crumble. +2 for Sonic.

 

[salaboB]

Duck Hunt: A weird one, but I've grown to like it. It's similar to FD, as it is flat and has similar blast zones, but it has a high place to reset the match (the tree) and the DH dog coming up from the ground can sometimes catch an airborne Yoshi off guard. It's not terribly disruptive but it can bring an element of randomness to a match that its normal counterpart FD doesn't deliver. Up to you.

The ducks also intercept eggs, weakening Yoshi's harassment.

 

[Rucent]

Whenever I am sent off stage with Yoshi close enough to follow up with fair I just DI away from the stage and airdodge if need be. Sometimes, if I do airdodge, Yoshi and I are close enough to where I can use spring to instantly hit him and escape back to stage.

I almost never follow Yoshi vertically. There were many times where I try to follow up with Spring then Uair and end up losing my stock. This is due to Yoshi being high enough to where I can't Uair him in time and he gets a free Yoshi Bomb (Down B) on me. I stop following him upwards once anyone is past 70%.

I usually short hop over Yoshi's grabs if I perdict it, nair/fair or fastfall and grab.

If Yoshi hits you with every kick on his dair, then that an instant 32% given to you. *Shivers*

Yoshi's uptilt is also a pretty good combo starter, and dThrow > Up Air is a thing for Yoshi. I DI away when I get dThrow'ed.

When Yoshi is on the ledge, he can drop off it, jump, then throw an egg before landing on stage/latching onto the ledge again. Perfect Shield and react accordingly.

Yoshi also has Egg Roll, however its rarely used from what I experienced. Shield or FSmash it.

I don't like BF agianst Yoshi because if you tumble onto the lower platforms and Yoshi is directly under it, he can potentially get a free Up Smash on you.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Oh, one more thing to the list: invincible SD through eggs.

 

[salaboB]

Yoshi also has Egg Roll, however its rarely used from what I experienced. Shield or FSmash it.

You say exactly why it's not used -- it's easily dealt with. Almost any kind of attack breaks it and you can grab Yoshi straight out of it, and it has a lot of lag on ending.

As Yoshi the only time I use egg roll is by accident, I really wish I could disable the move entirely

 

[Rucent]

Its time to go over to the vs Match Up!

And to vote for next week's MU, click on this link!

http://smashboards.com/threads/storybook-series-ballot-ch-11-voting-open.408539/

 

[Camalange]

I still didn't get to submit yet for Yoshi ;_;

ffff

Good timing for ZSS though...

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

I can't stand this dumb character, so I'll be paying attention to this thread. This character has a frame 1 jab. A frame 2 utilt that hits on both sides, ends fast and kills. A recovery that unless they get predictable, is insanely hard to punish. Basically an entire move set that is almost completely impossible to punish. I have an issue in general beating people that play ultra campy/safe and ZSS may do it better than anyone else.

Things I'd like to know. What moves I actually can punish. Optimal ways of fighting this character off stage. I do know that there's a small window to hit zss out of her tether recovery when she first latches to the ledge which basically ends in a free kill. How to properly DI things she does.

I've been told before by reputable ZSS mains how to DI out of uair combos, but I don't really remember. I think you're supposed to DI down. I think it makes the up b miss or something. Would like to know when/how to try to DI out of up b so the last hit misses. I know when it connects, you're supposed to DI completely sideways, so it kills later.

 

[Rucent]

I don't really know anything about this match up, other than the fact I'd much rather go Pikachu for it.

I still didn't get to submit yet for Yoshi ;_;

ffff

Good timing for ZSS though...

You can still submit your wisdom about Yoshi. xD

And yes, ZSS time. xD I think now is the perfect time to discuss about her, since CEO is over and I've been hearing much about Nick Riddle being a Sonic Slayer. I only got to see the end of Nairo vs Zero Grand Finals, exactly when Nairo loses the set and Zero kisses his girlfriend, LOL.

 

[Jords2Good]

This is one match up I've really need to learn. Every time I face a good zss its mostly not getting hit by lasers and getting grab but ****s hard lol.

 

[BatShark]

I can't stand this dumb character, so I'll be paying attention to this thread. This character has a frame 1 jab. A frame 2 utilt that hits on both sides, ends fast and kills. A recovery that unless they get predictable, is insanely hard to punish. Basically an entire move set that is almost completely impossible to punish. I have an issue in general beating people that play ultra campy/safe and ZSS may do it better than anyone else.

Things I'd like to know. What moves I actually can punish. Optimal ways of fighting this character off stage. I do know that there's a small window to hit zss out of her tether recovery when she first latches to the ledge which basically ends in a free kill. How to properly DI things she does.

I've been told before by reputable ZSS mains how to DI out of uair combos, but I don't really remember. I think you're supposed to DI down. I think it makes the up b miss or something. Would like to know when/how to try to DI out of up b so the last hit misses. I know when it connects, you're supposed to DI completely sideways, so it kills later.

Utilt is frame 3 and actually has a truckload of endlag. Standing on her in shield when she does it is a medium punish every single time.

Her recovery has a lot of mixups but tether is still vulnerable. If she has used her down B or side B already her options diminish hugely and you can punish what is left pretty safely.

If you think she is the safest/campiest character, you're not playing the dozen or so other characters that do it better - even after accounting for her superior mobility to most of those.

DI away makes Uair chains tougher, but I would mix it up now and again so they don't just chase underneath you and catch your air dodge at high %s or go for Fair instead at lower %s.

Paralyzer is much more punishable than you think. It's unsafe at certain distances vs. adequately speedy characters. Your approach to this MU should be about abusing how good shield is vs. her + baiting out grab attempts.

 

[pichuthedk]

^ he pretty much put a few nails in her Coffin zzzz.
If your losing to paralyzer remember your Sonic you can go from 0-60 by the time someone blinks. her grab combos are annoying yes but until you miss a pivot grab and have a ganon roll back twice then grab you and back throw you holla at me.

If your issue is her down b just remember this special rule, If she flip jumps at you trying to bury you in the ground all the time take note that she can't do it when you throw out a majority of your moves ( important to note that all forms of intangibility like air dodge negate her bury effect). So typically you can just jump at her and air dodge (to avoid the kick if she is trigger happy with that , If she doesn't kick no matter what she will ALWAYS footstool off you and be unable to utilize any action except horizontal movement for a significant period of time (your chance to punish that but she has pretty much no lag when she hits the ground).

You pretty much should never get that spring edgeguard on her if she tethers you can try to time the spring but generally she will like swing down to under the stage avoiding it , if she still has a jump she can tether cancel -> up air it and recover anyways.

Take her to stages with no underslope like those omegas that are straight line down , that will make it alot easier to keep getting springs on her although there should be no stage spikes because of this.

@ Phoenix_Dark For up B If zss is really close to you di down and through her if shes far down and away Sonic is shortish so it should be a little easier for you.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

If you know the spot she pops into when first tethering the ledge, it's actually kinda easy to land a spring on her. You can even land bairs too and really ruin her day. It's about a body length or two away from the ledge and the length of the tether down. If she already used her down b before tethering then she has no chance of getting back.

Paralyzers shouldn't be an issue as far as getting hit is concerned. It's just getting in and punishing lag in general that is a pain, as ZSS has an incredibly safe moveset and it's only made better by giving her a frame 1 jab to panic attack with after a move misses. A lot of the info given so far kinda sums up to "if the player does this bad option, you can do this" which doesn't really help much. I think this is just one of those matchups where Sonic has to force ZSS to approach him, as she doesn't have a good approach.

She pretty much relies on forcing the opponent to come to her. Sonic can find limited success in punishing certain things, but I think the main goal is probably to get ZSS to come in and get underneath or with uairs or punish her with other aerials while she is still in the air. It may be hard to gimp ZSS, but that doesn't mean Sonic should be letting her recover for free either. Sonic can cover any option off stage and should always be looking to add percent in that area.

With that said, I still think this mu is definitely in ZSS favor. Possibly one of his hardest mu's if not his hardest. It's definitely my personal hardest mu.

6-4 ZSS favor imo.

 

[pichuthedk]

The spring thing is pretty negligible if the right circumstances are in place which might not always be the case.

Tether cancel and wall jumps, even up air ffa makes the spring generally non-hazardous there is always a techable stage spike depending on where you hit anyone.

You say knowing that if something is done /forced she will do this to you isn't helping but on the contrary being told about it increases your awareness, increasing your awareness of something helps you acknowledge it as a thing, Now that let's you respect it and that can probably help you strive to avoid it...well unless you like dying to it over and over thst stuff has me pulling out my hair. Sometimes that's just how it is.

God only knows how I get bullied by fox and then when I'm at the jab lock % I know he can literally just walk up and kill me for free for no reason sometimes, that literally has me alert and in full Get the f*% $ out of dodge mode.

You also say paralyzer aren't really an issue but if she is mixing up charges with non charges or The PP version of the 2 not even counting down smash or random pivot grabs.

And to be honest I guess because of your throw need the Mu might be a tad easier for zammy but 6-4 is to high imo could be 50:50

Sonic can be a bully and get in really easily if she makes one mistake you just be relentless with her and be ready to possibly do those spin dash cancel spot dodge for her grabs.

I swear to god it is like a nightmare for a majority of the zss mains they just always fins them self a in the corner because the other characters are so mean T.T.

The last thing just be ware at these % s in these situations you can start thinking ahead.


-Near the ledge regardless of if she if the one I the corner :30-47% (FF nair from even a paralyzer = you just got spiked)

-30% and you die from a paralyzer at the edge because you slip off and we spike you.

-45% you can more then likely be pivot grabs or even DAC grabbed -> f/b throw to spiked.

125% excluding her potential rage if she downsmashes you up close your dead if she aims for the last hit of up which can be mixed up by utilizing hitting with the back hit or front hit messing with di.

Multi hit movesIke your fair are really annoying just think of how Pikachu murders her.

 

[Rucent]

Its time to go over to the vs Match Up!

And to vote for next week's MU, click on this link!

http://smashboards.com/threads/storybook-series-ballot-ch-12-voting-open.409705/

 

[Gregory2590]

Running shields are ****ing vital for this MU. They're needed to deal with slingshot zoning, they're good for shielding rockets for a free grab on the villager, they're just that damn important. Just....don't get smacked by the falling tree unless you don't like having a shield.


edit: not that i care much, but how come we don't get around to agreeing to a ratio for each MU?

 

[Rucent]

• Although Villager can easily get back on stage with his recovery, he can't protect him self while using it outside of evasive maneuvering. Doing Fair away from the stage at high percent can get you the kill, Bair can also get the job done. Dair (more particulary the spike) can be helpful here. Spring will not help gimp unless Villager only has one balloon.
• When Sonic has to go back on stage, watch out for pocketed springs, falling trees, bowling ball, Lloid Rocket, and the piece of wood that combes out of the tree.
• Perfect Shield Lloid Rocket, fairs and bairs when approaching Villager.
• Lloid Rocket has atrocious start-up lag and Sonic should be able to get in with a dash attack or Pivot grab before Villager sends it off.
• HA isn't as helpful in this MU because the tree can take in the damage.
• I don't reconmend following up Villager at high percent with Spring + Uair, because Villager's Dair can end your stock or spike you.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Hello, Sonic mains! The Kirby Boards are discussing your main Sonic this week. It would mean a lot to the Kirbys if you could post your input on this MU in our MU thread here. Thank you, and hope you can still go Sonic Speed!

 

[ToonKake]

i Hate Villager with a PASSION **** DAT ***** ! -.- lol

 

[Rucent]

Not too much on Villager I guess.. Welp, I guess its time to move on to vs!

Click below to vote for the next character!
http://smashboards.com/threads/storybook-series-ballot-ch-13-voting-open.411075/

 

[adlp]

if you are a flowchart sonic, peach wins

if you are capable of mixups and are successful with them, sonic wins

to elaborate:

we will ground nairs on you through side/down b
idk if our side b booty clashes with your side/down b or not, but be wary anyway because it's safe on shield.
smart peaches won't pull turnips right away on certain stages cause sanic can punish ezpz

we will be careful pulling turnips because throughout the match but if we have one we will still ground nairs and most likely use the turnip to extend a hit from a floated aerial.

some peaches will constantly try to SH dair you or float dair you but you have a lot of moves that can beat that, like that beginning hop from your side b or your homing attack or your up smash with a read.

we'll throw turnips to edgeguard you because if you recover low with upair we don't want to get stage spiked from edgefloating>timing our nair against you

thats not i have in my head but any questions?

 

[Rucent]

Peach is a floaty type character. Her great air mobility combined with her float ability and relatively low landing lag on most air normals, makes her strong when she's off the ground. She also has A LOT of combos that start from Down Tilt, Floated Dair, Floated Nair, Turnips, Down Throw, and Up Throw. Unfortunately, a lot of her grounded moves have short reach and her mobility isn't as good either, making it very easy to camp her out.

However, approaching her is going to be very annoying. She can easily stop our Spin Dash/Charge approach with Jabs, Peach Bomber, Toad, Vegetables, and her Floating Aerials, particulary Dair, Nair, and Fair. Peach in this MU will try to stick to the ground as much as possible while maintaing pressure with her aerials. She wants to bring us to her speed, and keep us in the air.

Your best bet agianst Peach is putting her in the air and harassing her. Because she is floaty, she will be spending more time in the air, which is good for us. She also won't be able to pull out turnips, Bomb-ombs, and Mr. Saturn in the air. Make constant mix ups and bait out her moves. ISDJ actually works well (Thanks @ Camalange Senpai) agianst Peach if she is going to try to punish your Spin Dash/Charge with a Floating Dair. Fair/Nair/Bairing her from the side while she is doing the Floating Dair works too. Stay away from the ledge espicially if you're closer to it than Peach. Her Fair can end your stock.

She has a good amount of tools for recovering. Second Jump, Floating, Peach Bomber, and Parasol. Being a floaty and light character also helps her out. She can easily bait out our spring to get back on stage, and if you try to spike and miss, you will be at a bad spot. Peach has good edgeguarding because of her Float and aerials. She can float by the ledge and Dair if you decide to spring to the ledge from below. She could drop down and Parosal toward the stage. She can even ledge trump into her fast Bair. She can Forward Smash infront of the ledge. The knockback, damage, and range is based on what object she uses in the forward smash.

thats not i have in my head but any questions?

First, I would like to say thank you for contributing to the Book of Matchups!

What stages do you recconmend choosing agianst Peach?
What stages do you recconmend striking agianst Peach?

 

[Rucent]

Time to discuss vs!

Click below to vote for the next character!

http://smashboards.com/threads/storybook-series-ballot-ch-14-15-voting-open.412280/

Make sure you read the description on the post! Next chapter we're going to do two characters!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Without customs, this is bad enough where I feel Wario players are forced to pick another character. Wario doesn't move quickly enough to set the pace for spacing at any point, and none of his hitboxes linger in a significant enough manner to reliably beat or even trade Sonic spin stuff. Wario's best options for catching Sonic deal poor amounts of damage, and anytime Wario manages to touch Sonic, Sonic has multiple options to go back to neutral position without significant risk involved.

Wario gets outspaced, outdamaged, and outsped by a large margin. Like 65-35 levels of bad if the Sonic's ability to make the most of neutral is on point. Sonic's mobility is just really, really unhealthy against slower characters.

 

[shoff]

You bring up some great points Reflex, but I do not think it is that bad. 50/50 or 55/45 in favor of Sonic. Wario shuts down Sonic's spin dash game completely with bite and his bike. That being said, sonic is forced to play around the lack of those options. He isnt able to get off as many shenanigans revolving around spindashes, but he is able to stay on Wario with his speed. Grab leads into a few tricky situations and Sonic is usually able to read the get up pretty easily and punish. But with Sonic's speed, using bite is more effective against him compared to other characters, as he will usually be forced to slow his gameplay down a bit and mix up his approach, or be punished for his fast and reckless ground game. Wario's damage output is pretty low and if sonic wants to time Wario out, thats a completely viable option. Sonic's upsmash and forward smash are huge threats in this matchup, as they punish a few of Wario's aerial options and laggy moves. I have spoken to a few great Sonic players and a few of them hate the matchup and say it is in Wario's favor, even with their speed advantage. Wario can live for a long time if he avoids Sonic's big kill moves.

 

[Camalange]

Wario's air mobility also makes it not nearly as bad as implied.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You bring up some great points Reflex, but I do not think it is that bad. 50/50 or 55/45 in favor of Sonic. Wario shuts down Sonic's spin dash game completely with bite and his bike. That being said, sonic is forced to play around the lack of those options. He isnt able to get off as many shenanigans revolving around spindashes, but he is able to stay on Wario with his speed. Grab leads into a few tricky situations and Sonic is usually able to read the get up pretty easily and punish. But with Sonic's speed, using bite is more effective against him compared to other characters, as he will usually be forced to slow his gameplay down a bit and mix up his approach, or be punished for his fast and reckless ground game. Wario's damage output is pretty low and if sonic wants to time Wario out, thats a completely viable option. Sonic's upsmash and forward smash are huge threats in this matchup, as they punish a few of Wario's aerial options and laggy moves. I have spoken to a few great Sonic players and a few of them hate the matchup and say it is in Wario's favor, even with their speed advantage. Wario can live for a long time if he avoids Sonic's big kill moves.

Wario's air mobility also makes it not nearly as bad as implied.

If you use Neutral-B when Sonic is not already in motion, Sonic just holds a spin charge or waits until you drop, then hits/grabs you on reaction. If Sonic was using Forward-B close up and you tried to beat the poke, the invincibility beats you. Mashing well on Neutral-B gets you 7%, which is a pittance compared to Sonic's standard strings from that position (even a grab -> throw). Many of Sonic's pokes, such as various aerials, F-Tilt, and Forward-B up-close, outright beat Wario's Neutral-B, and many of the ones that don't can still be done on reaction to Bite's cooldown, so it's really not that useful a tool in the matchup, considering how it causes you to stop moving.

Sonic should just play reactively to everything that Wario does and generally move away otherwise, because every option that moves Sonic backward carries pretty much no risk against Wario, and many of Wario's poking tools can be hit on reaction by Sonic if Wario stands any chance of actually hitting you on a read.

Wario's horizontal aerial mobility doesn't mean much here since Sonic's aerials generally outrange and/or outdamage yours, even slight stalls in the air completely throw off Wario's juggle/vertical pressure game, and it's not fast enough to catch standard reactive Sonic spin stuff. Waft is a losing gamble in most cases because Sonic ****s on Wario in neutral and gets out of disadvantaged states easily against Wario. I've played my fair share of good Sonics, such as Static Manny and Wrath (I guess that's what he's going by these days); I don't see how it could be seen as a reasonable matchup. I'm not "implying" anything--I'm outright saying that it's a terrible matchup. Nobody enjoys the pressure of having to deal with Waft, but Sonic is really well-equipped to avoid it altogether, as well as the stuff that allows Wario to rack up damage in a hit-and-run fashion. Any Sonic who says this isn't in their favor isn't camping hard enough/playing reactive well/is bad.

 

[Camalange]

Reflex, I really wish you weren't bad at catching flights because I would've loved to lab this match-up with you.