I don't think it's really that much of a nerf, but I think it's worse than it was before. It doesn't get much more time on screen because the faster ones went higher. I would honestly prefer the 2.6 seed bombs, or go full out with it and make the 3.0 speed even slower, so you can set up a wall with them better.
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Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir
- Start date
Dng3
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2008
- Messages
- 129
Yea, although 3.0 seed bomb is still useful, 2.6 seed bomb was simply better for many reasons. The higher shot ceiling combined with the faster rise and falling speed made it easier to wall and combo/kill with, and also created more situations where opponents would be hit by the spores (by surprise) leading to sleep status, which always leads to good things for Ivy.
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
Fixed
JOE!
Smash Hero
Yeah, but Im also thinking like, she moves faster in the air now on top of better horizontal bombs + more bombs at once. Been playing around with it and it seems to mesh really well.
Meme
Smash Journeyman
Aaaand I didn't know/notice that Ivy had a chance to trip opponents with jabs...
More of a general question, but do certain characters receive more hit stun? Cause it feels like Ivy's got tons.
As for Ivy specific questions, I've got some, how to you guys deal with a strong Ness? What about projectile harrasment, how do you deal with things like falco's lasers?
As for Ivy specific questions, I've got some, how to you guys deal with a strong Ness? What about projectile harrasment, how do you deal with things like falco's lasers?
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
Hitstun is based on knockback which is based on weight, so light characters will fly further from some attack than heavy ones and thus they are flying further so that has more hitstun. Fox/Falco have low weights but high fall speeds, so hitting them upward won't send them as far as it should but they'll get tons of hitstun from it still
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
A friend insists Ivy has less hitstun than others
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
So your friend says "she receives less hitstun" and Emlein thinks the opposite? I'll make a video guide on how to use the Frame Advance code so you can test it yourself, but I'm not sure they'd add something like that to a character. I felt the same thing when Ike's weight was reduced in 2.5.
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
IIRC, hitstun is universally the same.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
Yes the formula for calculating hitstun is the same, but that formula relies on KnockBack, and KnockBack is based on Weight. Not sure what your question about your friend is asking for if you're well aware all characters share the same hitstun formula with no modifications. Though Hitlag modifiers have been added/changed for certain attacks: I haven't heard of modifications to a specific character's hitstun they receive by any other means than just their weight being changed.
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GunBlaze
Smash Lord
Oh, PMBR, wherefore art thou in these times of need?
Meme
Smash Journeyman
I think people believe that Ivy has less hitstun is due to her sort of floatyness... When I played vs a friend's Jiggs certain aerial follow-ups that would normally connect on other characters didn't go through, then he picked his other main C.Falcon and comboed me from almost zero to death.
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
That would be a valid reason.
Kit Cal-N
Smash Ace
So where should I take Marth? Every stage good for Ivysaur is better for Marth, haha.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
The amount of hitstun a character takes is proportional to the initial KB velocity (not total KB distance, the initial velocity) – this multiplier is a constant, and does not change between characters or attacks at all. If you are sent off with a high degree of KB you will have a high amount of stun. As an aside, meteor attacks that bounce off the ground still get the full amount of stun as if the character were being knocked downwards, but the distance is cut short by the bounce – this is why you get so much hitstun advantage out of meteor bounces.
Anyways, most 50-90° combo moves rely on gravity to pull the opponent back down after being hit to some extent. Compared to being hit horizontally, gravity pulling on a vertical or partially vertical launch reduces the distance the opponent is sent away from you overall *without* decreasing the initial KB velocity... if the opponent doesn't travel as far but has the same stun, you get better followups. Opponents that fall faster will get pulled down by gravity more so they stay closer to the attacker, which nets more of a followup advantage. Floatier characters aren't pulled down by gravity as much, so they they usually get launched a bit further vertically without as much gravity to help pull them back down and give you good followup advantage. So yes, lower fall speed increases combo resistance.
On the flip side, higher fall speed also means that it's easier to stay grounded or become grounded and tech attacks. This adds its own sort of combo resistance, trading combo followups for tech chasing followups. Depending upon the attacker and the stats of the opponent's tech rolls, this might be easier or harder than comboing the character directly.
The most comboable characters, link, roy, lucas, diddy, etc, are all characters that fall just fast enough to give the attacker good hitstun advantage off vertical(ish) hits but don't fall fast enough to frequently reach the ground and force a tech chase.
Weight is a factor in how far you get sent, regardless of the direction. Lighter characters take higher initial KB velocity, while heavier characters get sent shorter distances due to their lower initial KB velocity. It's important to remember that in both cases you receive hitstun proportional to your initial KB velocity. Even though a light character might take higher KB and end up getting sent further it'll still receive more hitstun to match. This is why lighter characters aren't inherently harder or easier to combo, per se.
Weight *does* affect throw speed, though. Lighter characters usually get thrown faster, so the attacker has less cooldown and can follow the opponet sooner for more advantageous followups. As an example, spacies get chain grabbed on u-throws so badly because they're light, which means the attacker has low cooldown for quicker regrabs, and the spacies have high fall speed, which means they get pulled back down a lot so they don't get sent as far from vertical throws. So even though low weight doesn't directly affect combo resistance, it can sometimes make the character more vulnerable to throw followups.
The interactions between character size, fall speed (gravity & terminal velocity), and weight are what create the diverse range of followups and combo % ranges in smash.
Anyways, most 50-90° combo moves rely on gravity to pull the opponent back down after being hit to some extent. Compared to being hit horizontally, gravity pulling on a vertical or partially vertical launch reduces the distance the opponent is sent away from you overall *without* decreasing the initial KB velocity... if the opponent doesn't travel as far but has the same stun, you get better followups. Opponents that fall faster will get pulled down by gravity more so they stay closer to the attacker, which nets more of a followup advantage. Floatier characters aren't pulled down by gravity as much, so they they usually get launched a bit further vertically without as much gravity to help pull them back down and give you good followup advantage. So yes, lower fall speed increases combo resistance.
On the flip side, higher fall speed also means that it's easier to stay grounded or become grounded and tech attacks. This adds its own sort of combo resistance, trading combo followups for tech chasing followups. Depending upon the attacker and the stats of the opponent's tech rolls, this might be easier or harder than comboing the character directly.
The most comboable characters, link, roy, lucas, diddy, etc, are all characters that fall just fast enough to give the attacker good hitstun advantage off vertical(ish) hits but don't fall fast enough to frequently reach the ground and force a tech chase.
Weight is a factor in how far you get sent, regardless of the direction. Lighter characters take higher initial KB velocity, while heavier characters get sent shorter distances due to their lower initial KB velocity. It's important to remember that in both cases you receive hitstun proportional to your initial KB velocity. Even though a light character might take higher KB and end up getting sent further it'll still receive more hitstun to match. This is why lighter characters aren't inherently harder or easier to combo, per se.
Weight *does* affect throw speed, though. Lighter characters usually get thrown faster, so the attacker has less cooldown and can follow the opponet sooner for more advantageous followups. As an example, spacies get chain grabbed on u-throws so badly because they're light, which means the attacker has low cooldown for quicker regrabs, and the spacies have high fall speed, which means they get pulled back down a lot so they don't get sent as far from vertical throws. So even though low weight doesn't directly affect combo resistance, it can sometimes make the character more vulnerable to throw followups.
The interactions between character size, fall speed (gravity & terminal velocity), and weight are what create the diverse range of followups and combo % ranges in smash.
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This. This is what I was talking about, so it's not just Ivy, it's meteors. McBad/Awestin was juggling me like clown with Ness' Dair.
Thanks for the great post man. Really appreciate it.
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
I finally find the ultimate answer
Yeerk
Smash Journeyman
Afraid not. You can get out of the tumble animation quicker by "dash dancing" in the air, however. Doesn't reduce hitstun though.
Ah, okay. I knew about the wiggle to get out of the tumble. When I said hitstun, I meant to say tumble :/
Attacking and jumping (if you have a jump) are the fastest ways to get out of tumble, correct? I don;t see people doing this to get out much (because they're both punishable?), so do they wiggle, or just wait until the tumble ends?
Yeerk
Smash Journeyman
Yes, they're the fastest ways. I don't see a reason not to wiggle, unless you're about to get hit and need to DI. Jumping out is punishable if they read your jump or just wait. If you're over the edge, going to the ledge is a good option too.
Kit Cal-N
Smash Ace
Found a 0-50~ on Fox
D-throw > . > d-tilt > grab > d-throw > dash grab > d/u-throw > uair/bair/dash upsmash
You have to pause a bit to hit the right spot with d-tilt.
You have to hold shield during d-tilt and press A when you want to grab, otherwise you'll jab.
Pretty situational but still good to know?
D-throw > . > d-tilt > grab > d-throw > dash grab > d/u-throw > uair/bair/dash upsmash
You have to pause a bit to hit the right spot with d-tilt.
You have to hold shield during d-tilt and press A when you want to grab, otherwise you'll jab.
Pretty situational but still good to know?
TimeSmash
Smash Champion
Do people escape Ivy's grab more easily than other characters? Rephrased, is it easier to escape Ivy's grab versus like, Zelda's? It feels like that quite often
I believe there is a component of weight vs. weight (like Squirtle grabbing Bowser would let Bowser break out quickly, while Bowser grabbing Squirtle at the same percent would keep him in noticeably longer) in terms of mashing out of grabs in PM.
Ivysaur is slightly below average in weight, I believe, so there's that.
Ivysaur is slightly below average in weight, I believe, so there's that.
-Fatality-
Smash Journeyman
Take Marth to Dreamland, Yoshi's Island, Skyloft, or Skyworld. All 3 have big blastzones which complement Ivy's horizontal recovery much more than Marth's, and all 3 have somewhat high platforms that are much more useful to you than Marth. You should ban Yoshi's Story and Fountain of Dreams against Marth since his U-tilt and F-let him easily control your movements on the platforms safely from below, and because they're small stages.
-Fatality-
Smash Journeyman
As for starter stages, don't let him take you to the 2 above or Battlefield.
TimeSmash
Smash Champion
Where can I find a list of Ivysaur's chaingrabs??
Yeerk
Smash Journeyman
In the training room!
StoneBone
Smash Cadet
I'm having an awful time choosing approaches. is Nair Better that Fair? what about Bair approaches?
Swann
Smash Journeyman
Depends. Nair is typically the safest bet, and without any context, I'm gonna suggest you nair more. Fair and bair have a ton of range, though, and they are absurdly good moves. RAR bair is also good as a straight-up approach if you're confident you can just run in on them.
StoneBone
Smash Cadet
Thanks swann, i definitely don't Nair enough - i also find myself lacking a certain level of lucidity, how would you guys recommend i get out of my head? the tip i find myself getting the most is "stop going into autopilot", any tips or tricks to turning it off?
Swann
Smash Journeyman
Going into autopilot is something I have been struggling with recently. It took reflecting on getting whooped at a local tourney to make me realize what I had been allowing myself.
What it boiled down to was that I wasn't giving my opponent enough credit. I'd die, and would think about the things I did that allowed it to happen, without giving the other guy any credit for his own actions. This was a pretty easy mindset to fall into as Ivy, since you can easily spend a great deal of the match zoning the other guy out and then die off one mis-spaced WhateverYouDid. One of the reasons for this was because I was not being challenged by the people I was playing with most often (and not trying to challenge myself). Since I was used to their habits, it was easily to take all the blame for times I lost a stock.
I decided to more actively think about the space the other person is holding, instead of focusing wholly on the space that I easily dominate by playing Ivy conservatively. I put more effort into slowly (or quickly) encroaching on the other person's space, looking for when they begin to react and what their reactions are. I began to think more critically about the combos I was executing, and giving thought to possible alternative strings or places I might be able to incorporate more unorthodox play.
Hopefully I'll have some vids up, soon. I'm hosting a biweekly tomorrow... I don't know how much interest there'll be in PM but I'll try and record some sets regardless.
What it boiled down to was that I wasn't giving my opponent enough credit. I'd die, and would think about the things I did that allowed it to happen, without giving the other guy any credit for his own actions. This was a pretty easy mindset to fall into as Ivy, since you can easily spend a great deal of the match zoning the other guy out and then die off one mis-spaced WhateverYouDid. One of the reasons for this was because I was not being challenged by the people I was playing with most often (and not trying to challenge myself). Since I was used to their habits, it was easily to take all the blame for times I lost a stock.
I decided to more actively think about the space the other person is holding, instead of focusing wholly on the space that I easily dominate by playing Ivy conservatively. I put more effort into slowly (or quickly) encroaching on the other person's space, looking for when they begin to react and what their reactions are. I began to think more critically about the combos I was executing, and giving thought to possible alternative strings or places I might be able to incorporate more unorthodox play.
Hopefully I'll have some vids up, soon. I'm hosting a biweekly tomorrow... I don't know how much interest there'll be in PM but I'll try and record some sets regardless.
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StoneBone
Smash Cadet
Very well put, Swann. Thank you - i know exactly what you mean when you say "...I wasn't giving my opponent enough credit. I'd die, and would think about the things I did that allowed it to happen, without giving the other guy any credit for his own actions." this is my biggest problem, i get so worried about keeping someone out, when i finally make the decision to engage i've spent literally no time watching & learning my opponents tendancies so i approach incorrectly, or just pick the wrong option in general, which ultimately leads to a lost stock. so focused on me, i don't learn from my opponent at all. You've given me a great place to start improving, thanks a ton!
Swann
Smash Journeyman
Glad it helped! Let me know how it goes!
I placed 4th/14 yesterday :C
No nearly as good as I hoped, especially since last month, I 4 stocked consistently n°1 and 3, and went even with n°2 (*sigh* that marth matchup makes no sense).
I need some practice partners. Badly.
No nearly as good as I hoped, especially since last month, I 4 stocked consistently n°1 and 3, and went even with n°2 (*sigh* that marth matchup makes no sense).
I need some practice partners. Badly.
Swann
Smash Journeyman
Marth is such a volatile matchup... I can't decide if I love it or hate it.
Placed 7/33 last weekend. Not very confident in my play, though. I was struggling a lot with the things I wrote about to StoneBone. Lost to a Marth I eventually outplaced, then to Smith's TL. Went Bowser vs Smith second match in hopes to cheese him out, and because I was mentally fatigued, which didn't work at all LOL.
I know this is a caustic mentality but I wish I could've played any of the other guys that placed above me. I feel like I could've beaten all of them (except PP...) given the chance. Next time.
Placed 7/33 last weekend. Not very confident in my play, though. I was struggling a lot with the things I wrote about to StoneBone. Lost to a Marth I eventually outplaced, then to Smith's TL. Went Bowser vs Smith second match in hopes to cheese him out, and because I was mentally fatigued, which didn't work at all LOL.
I know this is a caustic mentality but I wish I could've played any of the other guys that placed above me. I feel like I could've beaten all of them (except PP...) given the chance. Next time.
I definitely hate it lmao
***** be mowing the lawn with inescapables CGs and ledge pressure. At least he's easy to kill.
You can always MM the ones that place above you. It's a great practice, even if it's a bit expensive. But it does feed you ego when you beat them, and that's what tourneys are all about :3
***** be mowing the lawn with inescapables CGs and ledge pressure. At least he's easy to kill.
You can always MM the ones that place above you. It's a great practice, even if it's a bit expensive. But it does feed you ego when you beat them, and that's what tourneys are all about :3
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