Solar Powered: Ivysaur Q&A/General Discussion Thread

[Rat]

How do you'all deal with Ivysaur's bad shield and bad OoS shield options? (Maybe you find it to be good.)
Especially against faster characters, i'm have trouble getting out of my shield or having it block an attack profitably.

Right now I'm privot grabbing a lot as anti-pressure. (Mix-up it up with kinda risky interceptions.) But she can only give up so much space before that's not an option. =( This is really a problem against faster characters who don't really have to respect her space and can set the pace of the match. Spacies, Falcon. NOBODY ELSE. Definitely not ZSS. What a bad character.

Also how do you get down with ivy after being juggled or sent up? Just go to the ledge?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

N-Air is a decent out-of-shield option. Her rolls are also pretty solid.

Late B-Air/F-Air -> mixing up follow-ups (D-Tilt, F-Tilt, pivot grab, another jump) is your best bet. She's not very good at it.

Oftentimes, I'll just shoot off a Down-B, potentially take a second hit (depending on the character and percent, of course), and try to have that cover me on the way down by stalling with D-Air and stuff. Mixing up what platform you land on, if applicable, also helps.

 

[Oro?!]

Rat, the first player to ever list ZSS as a threat.

 

[Rat]

Editted the post for correctness.

 

[bubbaking]

I feel like Ivy kinda bodies ZSS for free. Her Razor Leaves destroy her blaster zoning, ZSS is somewhat easy to combo because she falls fast, Ivy's survivability problem is somewhat mitigated by ZSS having weak kill moves (IMO), and perhaps most importantly, ZSS is SO DARN EASY to gimp! At mid-high %'s, literally all you have to do after sending her off is jump out there facing backwards and drift down with her. If she commits to anything, just bair her. You can fall all the way out of her recovery range and still make it back. It's stupidly easy. Even though I feel ZSS is a potential High Tier character, and Ivy is a somewhat flawed but solid Mid Tier, I think Ivy:ZSS is actually firmly in Ivy's favor.

Also, I somewhat agree with Rat. Ivy's shield game is kinda bad. Nair OoS is decent, but you have to suffer through all of jumpsquat to get it and I feel the hitbox isn't that great. I predicted this way before 2.5 even came out. I said that Ivy's gonna have a hard time with fast, extreme rushdown (namely spacees and Falcon and probably Sheik and Lucario as well). Sometimes, I just bair OoS if the opponent is behind me. Dair OoS works sometimes as well for me.

As for getting down out of a juggling situation, the BnB stuff is to mix up between your dair for stalling (kinda like Samus' bomb jumps which should be familiar since you used to play Samus in Melee, Rat ) and uair to suddenly increase your vertical speed and also meteor any unsuspecting opponent. I think Seed Bomb also serves to speed up your vertical velocity, albeit not as much as uair, and it presents coverage through the threat of its future descent, so I like to throw that in there as well. Fastfall nair is a decent mix-up, IMO, as well.

 

[Oro?!]

Ignorance is bliss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrlKC60jjSg

 

[Rat]

I feel like Ivy kinda bodies ZSS for free. Her Razor Leaves destroy her blaster zoning, ZSS is somewhat easy to combo because she falls fast, Ivy's survivability problem is somewhat mitigated by ZSS having weak kill moves (IMO), and perhaps most importantly, ZSS is SO DARN EASY to gimp! At mid-high %'s, literally all you have to do after sending her off is jump out there facing backwards and drift down with her. If she commits to anything, just bair her. You can fall all the way out of her recovery range and still make it back. It's stupidly easy. Even though I feel ZSS is a potential High Tier character, and Ivy is a somewhat flawed but solid Mid Tier, I think Ivy:ZSS is actually firmly in Ivy's favor.

Is this meant to be ironic? I could totally dig that.

But if this is your honest opinion, I feel bad for you Oro. I bet you deal with this a lot.


Things I disagree with:
1) Ivy does not body ZSS for fray. In no way is that free. That ****'s a 9-5, at minimum ****in wage.

2) Destroy is too strong of a word for what Razor leaf does to ZSS. Razor Leaf tickles ZSS Zoning game. Tickles, Not destroy.
ZSS wins the zoning game, with mix-ups, mobility, and sideB. You gotta Rush down her town.

3) Gimping ZSS. wat?
This only happens when they **** up really really badly. And I'll take those free stocks. Also if you hit her with BAir, she gets another jump.



Bubba, I'll try your suggestions and all. Maybe you're onto something. But It seems like you need to play against better ZSS players.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm not being ironic, and I'm not the only person who seriously thinks that ZSS is easily gimped. I've talked to several PMBR members, including JCaesar, cmart, and others, and many of them think not only that ZSS is easily gimped but also that Ivy is pretty good at gimping her. My own experiences with Ivy against ZSS also point to this. I urged one of my friends at Stony Brook University to pick up the character when he showed extreme proficiency at controlling the character and putting together huge combos on the fly, and he became one of our best P:M players, but then I went Ivy and he started labeling the MU as impossible once ZSS is offstage.

1) Idk, it feels kinda free to me. ZSS doesn't really kill and she can't really get in. I don't feel the need to approach at all and when ZSS finally does, I just box her out. Our experiences may be different, but my own have led me to feel that, while ZSS is overall a better character than Ivy, she loses to Ivy's more extreme traits.

2)Again, I don't feel like I have to rush her down at all. ZSS doesn't win the zoning game at all. Sure, she has mobility and mix-ups, but they don't necessarily help her get past the wall that is Ivy. Ivy's attacks just have too much range, and very few of them are slower than average. Taking up an avenue of movement with tilted Razor Leaves (the best Leaves, IMO) remove a lot of ZSS' mix-ups. I can also just attack through her blaster and be perfectly fine.

3) Lolz, okay she gets another downB jump. I'm fine with that. Now what? Ivy can bair twice, DJ and bair again, and then tether the ledge to rinse and repeat. I doubt ZSS will even live long enough for all of that to be necessary, but if she does, well, I'll just go out and do it again. Also, ZSS doesn't get to tether out of a Hooligan Flip as quickly as she can tether out of a jump. There's actually quite noticeable lag when ZSS tries to do anything other than a DJ (which you probably don't have anymore) after the flip. If your downB is all you're getting back, you're in a lot of trouble. I'm really curious how ZSS is supposed to get past Ivy without recovering reeaaally high.

Zard also gets to gimp ZSS fairly for free, and so does ROB.

IMO, you're underestimating Ivy's gimping power. I never said ZSS' recovery sucks, because I actually believe it is quite versatile, but Ivy just shuts it down and so do characters who can take up a lot of space between the recoverer and the ledge with a good gimping move. If ZSS doesn't recover high, then all Ivy has to do is be proactive (the only time he really needs to be proactive during the match) and go out there. If ZSS makes ANY move whatsoever while Ivy is falling with her, she eats a bair to the face (which combos into another bair if Ivy follows up). You can't just try to jump over her, 'cause Ivy will just react with a DJ bair.....and more bairs. She'll then tether the stage, rinse, and repeat. I'll admit that we don't have many ZSS players here in MD/VA (or in NY/NJ), but the few we almost had kinda stopped playing her once they realized she wasn't really that good at getting past certain core traits in the game.

 

[ScaryPixel]

(namely spacees and Falcon and probably Sheik and Lucario as well)

It's funny that you mention that considering those are all the match ups I have an issue dealing with as Ivy.

I think Spacies are beatable if you can gimp them off stage quickly enough however. The only spacey who can deal with her uair spike is wolf, and even then he falls for the pseudo-spike easily. Fun fact, Ivy's uair spike can catch all of them out of their side b. and there's nothing they can do about it.

3) Gimping ZSS. wat?

If this is a surprise to you, then you don't understand how easily Ivy can gimp the whole cast, let alone tether characters.

 

[bubbaking]

I think Spacies are beatable if you can gimp them off stage quickly enough however. The only spacey who can deal with her uair spike is wolf, and even then he falls for the pseudo-spike easily. Fun fact, Ivy's uair spike can catch all of them out of their side b. and there's nothing they can do about it.

That's throwing all of your hopes on a super gimmick, though. On the topic of gimping spacees, however, I still like bair a lot. Bair is just so godly at gimping anything and everything.

If this is a surprise to you, then you don't understand how easily Ivy can gimp the whole cast, let alone tether characters.

Exactly! Ivy's a great gimping character, but she's an absolute annihilator of tether recoveries, meaning she even edgeguards herself really well.

Soooooooooo, what do you other Ivys do against shine pressure? Reflex? Rat? I kinda just wait for the spacee to mess up or end up being hit/grabbed, 'cause I can't even jump or roll out when the pressure is tight. All my close matches versus spacees stem from super early gimps, but I really don't know what to do once the lights start flashing.

 

[ScaryPixel]

That's throwing all of your hopes on a super gimmick, though. On the topic of gimping spacees, however, I still like bair a lot. Bair is just so godly at gimping anything and everything.

Not so much of a gimmick as long as you can chase spacies off stage at low percentages properly believe it or not! I've done it at least once a game to all of the smashers I've played against in this region. But yeah, bair is good too. Bair is good against floaties as well, it's crazy that she has a move that covers spacies AND light weights recovery insanely well.

Exactly! Ivy's a great gimping character, but she's an absolute annihilator of tether recoveries, meaning she even edgeguards herself really well.

I love ivy ditto'ing people for this very reason. They always complain that her gimping gimmick is obnoxious and easy for some reason.

Soooooooooo, what do you other Ivys do against shine pressure? Reflex? Rat? I kinda just wait for the spacee to mess up or end up being hit/grabbed, 'cause I can't even jump or roll out when the pressure is tight. All my close matches versus spacees stem from super early gimps, but I really don't know what to do once the lights start flashing.

I best would avoid needing to hold my shield up for too long against a spacie, Nair out of shield generally if I'm forced to. And I relate, especially vs Falco. Generally just tech or roll away at the first given notice, use multi-hits like nair/ftilt to punish them when they get too close at early percentages. Then just try to get them off stage and edge guard. They can reflect seed bombs if they react quickly enough so bringing it to high percentages is risky. Gimp or edge guard whenever possible and stay out of situations where you need to hold shield. Always be zoning the opponent (any vine related move generally) so they can't force you into her shield.

I'll write up a section for Fox and Wolf with further gameplay against them.

 

[bubbaking]

Actually, I wasn't saying the edgeguarding tactic itself was gimmick. It's probably very solid, in fact. No, I was saying that the very strategy of somehow getting the spacees offstage early seemed like it would be gimmicky to me. Once they're off, it's probably a stock, but to get to that point is ridiculously difficult.

I......did not know that Seed Bomb could be reflected...

The problem I have is that Falco forces me to shield. Ivy isn't that good when she's above her opponent and she's too floaty to descend from the air quickly to prevent her opponent from dashing under her, so jumping over the lasers doesn't seem feasible, and she can't really crawl under them like Squirt, Snake, and Sheik can, so I'm forced to shield and WD OoS repeatedly to advance at mid-range. Unfortunately, this involves approaching with my shield, and Ivy's OoS game against spacees is also not good. This is a unique problem for me because all of the other chars I play in P:M and Melee either have great OoS options (Samus, Snake, etc.), or don't mind jumping around their opponents too much. Ivy does neither. Heck, all of my other chars, bar Samus, have good shieldgrabs. Ivy's shieldgrab sucks. Obviously, I have to approach, because you can't out-camp the spacees, but approaching against Falco, in particular, is ridiculously hard because he forces me into what I feel is Ivy's worst position with few to no options.

 

[Swann]

Fox and Wolf aren't too bad, but Falco is tough if only because he stuffs Ivy's OoS and movement options so easily and so completely. You really have to make sure that getting in or being offstage = falco's stock... I just wish getting that hit wasn't so obnoxious. It's a good thing that spacies get combo'd so easily.

> Ivy's shieldgrab (((

 

[ScaryPixel]

Nvm

10nvms

 

[Fluttershy]

How does Ivy fair against Sonic? I'm having a lot of trouble with someone who uses him really well...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Not well, I feel. Sonic doesn't have to commit to anything and Ivysaur doesn't have the speed or the safety to get in or keep him out.

 

[Swann]

I definitely get the feeling that Ivy/Sonic is heavily stacked in Sonic's favor. Like Reflex said, he can just run around and never commit to anything, and punish ANY lag. Doesn't help that he's one of the very few chars on the roster that can reliably edgeguard and gimp Ivy... stall once with dair and he can punish with homing attack. [Insert profane rant]. Sonic is so stupid.

Recovering low is very bad as his Up B stops most tether attempts; you can mix up your timings kind of but it's just SO free for Sonic. I feel like what most players probably feel playing against Ivy when we just float out and stuff every recovery option with aerials.

 

[bubbaking]

Not well, I feel. Sonic doesn't have to commit to anything and Ivysaur doesn't have the speed or the safety to get in or keep him out.

The story of Ivysaur vs pretty much any fast character. This is why she loses to rushdown.

I definitely get the feeling that Ivy/Sonic is heavily stacked in Sonic's favor. Like Reflex said, he can just run around and never commit to anything, and punish ANY lag. Doesn't help that he's one of the very few chars on the roster that can reliably edgeguard and gimp Ivy... stall once with dair and he can punish with homing attack. [Insert profane rant]. Sonic is so stupid.

Recovering low is very bad as his Up B stops most tether attempts; you can mix up your timings kind of but it's just SO free for Sonic. I feel like what most players probably feel playing against Ivy when we just float out and stuff every recovery option with aerials.

Yeah, your best bet is to DI really high and recover high, if you can. Now you think Sonic is a problem? What about Fox who can DD/laser camp and then come in to punish any commitment with a usmash or uthrow > uair? A lot of the reasons we have a hard time against Sonic are the reasons I feel Fox destroys us as badly as Falco does.

Another problem with Sonic is that he is one of the few characters we cannot reliably edgeguard. His recovery is pretty versatile and he has a lot of options, such as SideB to gain distance, Spring at any time (with subsequent actions to cover himself) to gain tremendous height, and Homing Attack to punish our proactive attempts to gimp him.

 

[Fluttershy]

The person I've been fighting hasn't used Fox when i play against him and everyone else at my college doesn't use him either or atleast as good.

 

[ZetTroxX]

I'm new to ivy so i'm gonna ask right away: whats so bad about ivy? Like why do people put it so low on their first attempt tierlists?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

She's not very good at anything but edgeguarding and poking at specific angles. She's easy to outcamp, she can't approach the faster characters, most of her options lose to crouch canceling, and once the opponent is inside, she can't do much about it. She's just not designed to adequately compete with characters in the Melee engine, I feel.

Her best combo option doesn't combo reliably (in most cases, the opponent can hold Up to escape N-Air), her grab is too low to reliably get anyone looking out for it, and her KO options are really limited.

tl;dr--Way too many abusable weaknesses, not enough obvious strengths. Polarizing moves means she has some really good stuff that doesn't really cover a good chunk of the cast.

 

[Mithost]

Reflex, have you ever played as Ivy? Just curious, because my opinions on the matter are the exact opposite and I'm an Ivy main lmao

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Reflex, have you ever played as Ivy? Just curious, because my opinions on the matter are the exact opposite and I'm an Ivy main lmao

Reflex is probably the best Ivysaur player at this point lmao

Go check out the video thread and see what I mean

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Reflex, have you ever played as Ivy? Just curious, because my opinions on the matter are the exact opposite and I'm an Ivy main lmao

Yeah, I co-main Wario and Ivysaur. I play more with Ivysaur than Wario these days, though, because I think Wario is in a pretty good place overall while Ivysaur could use some data to figure out what may or may not need to be changed.

To each their own, though--I would like to hear your thoughts on why you feel very differently about her. I'm just one person, and no one person gets it all right. The more detailed a response, the better.

 

[Mithost]

Yeah, I co-main Wario and Ivysaur. I play more with Ivysaur than Wario these days, though, because I think Wario is in a pretty good place overall while Ivysaur could use some data to figure out what may or may not need to be changed.

To each their own, though--I would like to hear your thoughts on why you feel very differently about her. I'm just one person, and no one person gets it all right. The more detailed a response, the better.

You have reasonable points, but I think I might have just been having better luck with Ivy, and I'm not getting into these situations as often. I play Ivy as a comfortable pick against most characters, but I can agree with you on sonic's spring being an issue.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You have reasonable points, but I think I might have just been having better luck with Ivy, and I'm not getting into these situations as often. I play Ivy as a comfortable pick against most characters, but I can agree with you on sonic's spring being an issue.

oh god Sonic's Spring *shudders*

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

If I may, I'd like to ask fellow Ivy mains what they'd like to see changed about Ivy in the next release.
I can think of a few personal ideas off the top of my head:

-Standing grab: start-up reduced from 14 frames to 10 frames. To help with the shield pressure game while keeping it iconic as a poor point of Ivy's characteristics.
-U-tilt: Body hit-box appears sooner. Currently, it is barely useful in attack OR defense. I feel an adjustment is reasonable.
-Fair: Farthest hitboxes on frames 14-15 (&16?) angled more downward like the inner hit-boxes. To buff defense during recovery. I've had a lot of times where successfully hitting my enemy with fair wins me no figurative ground. http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/kiklis/Ivysaur Frame Data/Fair_zps2759fe30.jpg
-Up-B: polished up so there are less questionable failures. "Why didn't it grab there? The animation is touching the ledge!"
-Ability to press down during Up-B's start-up to force it to attack rather than snapping to a nearby ledge. Sometimes I want to vine-whip while I happen to be near (usually above) a ledge; I can't.
-Side-B: Smash timing closer to that of Samus' missiles I think it should be less challenging to choose the distance. You rarely get to use it because it is so slow, the strict timing makes it even less friendly to Ivy.
-Back Roll IASA frames begin on frame 31 rather than 33. See standing grab's reasoning.

 

[SpiderMad]

If I may, I'd like to ask fellow Ivy mains what they'd like to see changed about Ivy in the next release.

-Side-B: Smash timing closer to that of Samus' missiles I think it should be less challenging to choose the distance. You rarely get to use it because it is so slow, the strict timing makes it even less friendly to Ivy.

Yeah I'd want it even easier than Samus's missiles, I hate how hard Samus' Strong missiles takes of a smash input, as well as Diddy's long distance side-b, they made them too hard of a smash input that it's annoying as well as ruining the longevity of my control stick.

 

[GunBlaze]

Spoiler

If I may, I'd like to ask fellow Ivy mains what they'd like to see changed about Ivy in the next release.
I can think of a few personal ideas off the top of my head:

-Standing grab: start-up reduced from 14 frames to 10 frames. To help with the shield pressure game while keeping it iconic as a poor point of Ivy's characteristics.
-U-tilt: Body hit-box appears sooner. Currently, it is barely useful in attack OR defense. I feel an adjustment is reasonable.
-Fair: Farthest hitboxes on frames 14-15 (&16?) angled more downward like the inner hit-boxes. To buff defense during recovery. I've had a lot of times where successfully hitting my enemy with fair wins me no figurative ground. http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/kiklis/Ivysaur Frame Data/Fair_zps2759fe30.jpg
-Up-B: polished up so there are less questionable failures. "Why didn't it grab there? The animation is touching the ledge!"
-Ability to press down during Up-B's start-up to force it to attack rather than snapping to a nearby ledge. Sometimes I want to vine-whip while I happen to be near (usually above) a ledge; I can't.
-Side-B: Smash timing closer to that of Samus' missiles I think it should be less challenging to choose the distance. You rarely get to use it because it is so slow, the strict timing makes it even less friendly to Ivy.
-Back Roll IASA frames begin on frame 31 rather than 33. See standing grab's reasoning.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think a grab with higher grab-boxes would be significantly better for general balance than speeding it up that much.

The F-Air change you want would basically get rid of its best use: The ability to combo well with it, especially from above. It's not supposed to be a move to swat people away with.

 

[ScaryPixel]

-Standing grab: start-up reduced from 14 frames to 10 frames. To help with the shield pressure game while keeping it iconic as a poor point of Ivy's characteristics.

I think a grab with higher grab-boxes would be significantly better for general balance than speeding it up that much.

10 frames on start-up would be pushing it. I think 12 frames and higher grab-boxes would be optimal.

-U-tilt: Body hit-box appears sooner. Currently, it is barely useful in attack OR defense. I feel an adjustment is reasonable.

Eh, Ivy has a lot of options for following up into u-tilt (dtilt and nair first come to mind). I don't feel the change is necessary but it wouldn't hurt.

-Fair: Farthest hitboxes on frames 14-15 (&16?) angled more downward like the inner hit-boxes. To buff defense during recovery. I've had a lot of times where successfully hitting my enemy with fair wins me no figurative ground. http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f61/kiklis/Ivysaur Frame Data/Fair_zps2759fe30.jpg

The F-Air change you want would basically get rid of its best use: The ability to combo well with it, especially from above. It's not supposed to be a move to swat people away with.

I agree with Reflex. I think F-fair is fine the way it is now.

-Up-B: polished up so there are less questionable failures. "Why didn't it grab there? The animation is touching the ledge!"

I can never say "no" to a better recovery. :D

-Ability to press down during Up-B's start-up to force it to attack rather than snapping to a nearby ledge. Sometimes I want to vine-whip while I happen to be near (usually above) a ledge; I can't.

I wouldn't like this change. This would be a very easy way to SD and frustrate players.

-Side-B: Smash timing closer to that of Samus' missiles I think it should be less challenging to choose the distance. You rarely get to use it because it is so slow, the strict timing makes it even less friendly to Ivy.

Mmm, sure. Would be okay with this change as well.

-Back Roll IASA frames begin on frame 31 rather than 33. See standing grab's reasoning.

Might look a little awkward, would need to see an example of the change at frame 31 before I comment further.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

You're all totally right to describe fair as a combo move, and I agree with that view, but I want to explain my thinking a bit more:

During recovery, when you're nearing the stage, you may need to defend from an enemy who plans to intercept you. You usually have no other choice but to jump and Fair them to disrupt them. I thought it might be worth it to make a fraction of the move be more useful in this common situation. Similar to Marth's fair, an Ivy player could be able to space and time the move to choose whichever effect they desired, so the move would retain its combo use. This is an move change I'm not so sure about, so I put my faith in the majority opinion. Perhaps, early on in recovery, one could use a B move to turn backwards so bair can be the defensive attack instead.

I heavily disagree with the idea that my "Forced attack" Vine whip would be easy to SD with, and think it could be a challenge to pull off even intentionally. The idea's mechanics were inspired by brawl. In Brawl, up-Bs snap to ledges by default; but would continue upward, and pass the ledge, if you held "down" during the moment you would normally snap on. People rarely messed it up back then, and Ivy's timing would be more strict. In order to pull off the technique, you'd have to press up-B and then press down only a few frames after that... (BEFORE the move attaches to a ledge). If someone knows what frame the move actually snaps to an edge, it would help significantly in imagining it.

I would have chosen 11 frames for Ivy's standing grab start-up, but dash-grab is 12 and, in that case, the change doesn't seem very useful. Though, it could still be a much appreciated buff for shield grabbing.

Generally speaking, Ivy's hitboxes point either upward or along the floor in front of Ivy. They really don't cover that area above and in front of Ivy in the way that Marth's moves do. I believe this is an intentional effort of the PMBR to give Ivy a blind-spot of sorts. Angling the grab (or any move) more upward would be great, but I think the PMBR has acted specifically against that kind of thing.

Thoughts?

 

[Deleted member]

Ivysaur being released with his current grab seems like an oversight to me. The grabbox is oddly low and nobody else has a slower standing grab than dash grab. I mean, I can't imagine anybody thinking it made sense if they actually took the time to look at the data.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The grab box placement is the same as in Brawl, for what it's worth.

 

[Deleted member]

Well yeah, that explains why it's so odd to begin with, but it doesn't really explain why nobody thought to fix it before his release.

I dunno, Ivysaur seemed a bit rushed to me. I mean, I love his changes (healing, Solar Beam, Seed Bomb). Those were good ideas, but I feel like not much thought was put into how Ivy would perform in a Melee environment. He has the exact same problems I predicted he'd have months before 2.5 was released.

I don't mean to insult those who designed the character, so please don't think that's what I'm doing. It's just that it frustrates me because I like Ivysaur so much.

 

[Rat]

Soooooooooo, what do you other Ivys do against shine pressure? Reflex? Rat? I kinda just wait for the spacee to mess up or end up being hit/grabbed, 'cause I can't even jump or roll out when the pressure is tight. All my close matches versus spacees stem from super early gimps, but I really don't know what to do once the lights start flashing.

Most of the time Roll/Hold shield. Some of the time Nair. Some of the time WD OoS.

You're probably going to get hit. But you want them to expect the Roll/Shield. This way you can surprise them with Nairs and reverse the situation.


On Falco:
Imo this match-up is easier than Fox but I don't get to play it a lot. If you are on even ground you need to power shield. I'd prefer to be an a platform though and threaten Nair/Fair.

On space animals in general I think it's a decent match-up for Ivy. Her big advantage is that she crushes them - one grab kills. 0-40% Uthrow chainthrow. Then Uthrow Uairs to UpB. If they land on a platform you get to spam free Uairs =).
If they go off stages they die. (btw bubbaking great advice on the bair usage.)

The downside is that if they don't mess-up, they'll win. So basically you're preying on their mistakes and then killing them.

 

[Oro?!]

Isn't that the advantage of spacies in every matchup? They have the potential to essentially never lose a stock since they technically don't lose the neutral game in any matchup. That's how I've always viewed it anyways.

 

[Rat]

yeah i agree with you, that's generally how Spacie match-ups go. But I was trying to say Ivysaur hits Spacies harder than most characters.

Compared to Samus, Ivy kills them so much easier. (It's not close.)
Wolf needs tech chases and resets to 0-death them. Ivysaur doesn't.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

So, about those stages. What do you guys like to cp to?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I like CPing to Yoshi's Island: Brawl because of the shy guys for charging/healing and because a lot of players get thrown off by the slanted stage. I also like the bigger stages, mostly Dracula's Castle.

Though tbh if I lose with Ivysaur I'll most often switch to Ganondorf because they never ban Ganon's good stages because they don't know it's coming