So...none items user....cant adapt?

[Thino]

Oh I understood what you meant. But it is the original way to play the game otherwise the creator would have you turn on the items not turn them off. Get what I mean? I dont mean to offend you.

If I understand what you mean , playing items on very high takes the spirit of smash away
playing items on high takes the spirit of smash away
playing with 4 minutes instead of 3 takes the spirit of smash away
I could go on like this

 

[DanteSmash7]

Does staying in the "spirit of the game" include playing time matches?

Time matches, that depends. Thats more like I have 5 mins till I split. Rather than got an hour to rock some smash.

 

[DanteSmash7]

Sigh

If I understand what you mean , playing items on very high takes the spirit of smash away
playing items on high takes the spirit of smash away
playing with 4 minutes instead of 3 takes the spirit of smash away
I could go on like this

The investment of time for different items weren't for kicks and giggles. That I you assure and each item has a certain method of using it. *sigh* And sometimes even more than one method.
Time and stocks are different matter. More preference not a huge changing dynamic of play style.

Thats something different.

 

[Thino]

The investment of time for different items weren't for kicks and giggles. That I assure and each item has a certain method of using it. *sigh* And sometimes even more than one method.

just like the investment of time doing an option to turn them off wasnt done for nothing neither, just like playing coin battle , special brawl etc...what does it have to do with your supposedly "spirit of smash"?
if you're still talking about the use of items then you didnt understand my previous posts

Time and stocks are different matter. More preference not a huge changing dynamic of play style.

Thats something different.

you obviously never played against people stalling timed matched , utterly useless strategy in stock battles

 

[Eriorguez]

Smash's spirit is it being customizable. To a huge degree.

The thing is, there is an standard for tournaments, that makes the game as fair as possible. In Melee, for example, Fox would become God tier if items were on, as only Falcon had a chance to get them first, and Fox used them like nobody.

 

[DanteSmash7]

just like the investment of time doing an option to turn them off wasnt done for nothing neither, just like playing coin battle , special brawl etc...what does it have to do with your supposedly "spirit of smash"?
if you're still talking about the use of items then you didnt understand my previous posts

Yes, you can change options of time and stock but that doesn't change the overall game play dynamic. In both you are trying not to get killed. In none item battles be it timed or not. You essentially reject the input of items because to some. They can become too overwhelming.

That I understand but in a tournament setting some prefer not to take that element of "random-ness" which many are fond of. This in itself can show, how tactical that player is.
No one can argue that it is less tactical to have items off.

More things to implement into your arsenal. And Rejecting certain stages shows the lack of being able to change you fighting style be it a scrolling stage or a still one. In essence to adapt to ones surrounding. Now what "competitive players" argue is the "Bomb Trauma".

Which basically is that 98% of the time a bomb will explode on your face. Something along those lines.

You know, like sudden death....(Sarcasm)

 

[Mic_128]

But it is the original way to play the game otherwise the creator would have you turn on the items not turn them off.

Sakurai has said that there is no right or wrong way to play.

 

[DanteSmash7]

Sakurai has said that there is no right or wrong way to play.

True, but it was something I was pointing out.

But accord to competitive rules / "mainstream". The right way to play is without items.

 

[mark.]

...And the items are generated randomly, so you have no clue what your gonna get. Could be a huge freaking bomb to the face or a heart. (Unless you tampered with the item settings.)...

...True skill....

when matches like tournament matches are played, they disable items for a reason.
two people play each other in a match to see which one is better. these items can take away from that factor by putting in a sense of luck.

however dante if you are playing for fun, theres no problem with items.

 

[Thino]

Yes, you can change options of time and stock but that doesn't change the overall game play dynamic. In both you are trying not to get killed. In none item battles be it timed or not. You essentially reject the input of items because to some. They can become too overwhelming.

That I understand but in a tournament setting some prefer not to take that element of "random-ness" which many are fond of. This in itself can show, how tactical that player is.
No one can argue that it is less tactical to have items off.

More things to implement into your arsenal. And Rejecting certain stages shows the lack of being able to change you fighting style be it a scrolling stage or a still one. In essence to adapt to ones surrounding. Now what "competitive players" argue is the "Bomb Trauma".

Which basically is that 98% of the time a bomb will explode on your face. Something along those lines.

overwhelming is exaggerated.
random yes.
its less tactical but competitive playing priority is about being fair and balanced , even if it requires to remove a tactical part of the game
the problem with stages are generally not the stage themselves but the advantage some characters can have on some others
like being shined continuously by a fox against the wall on shadow moses these kind of things
and trust me foxes dont lack changing their playstyle on a stage where they have an advantage on
otherwise you wouldnt find matches of people playing on rainbow cruise or mute city in melee tournaments
I disagree with bomb trauma mainly cuz it doesnt exist anymore in brawl

 

[Nitesever]

Yes, you can change options of time and stock but that doesn't change the overall game play dynamic. In both you are trying not to get killed. In none item battles be it timed or not. You essentially reject the input of items because to some. They can become too overwhelming.

That I understand but in a tournament setting some prefer not to take that element of "random-ness" which many are fond of. This in itself can show, how tactical that player is.
No one can argue that it is less tactical to have items off.

More things to implement into your arsenal. And Rejecting certain stages shows the lack of being able to change you fighting style be it a scrolling stage or a still one. In essence to adapt to ones surrounding. Now what "competitive players" argue is the "Bomb Trauma".

Which basically is that 98% of the time a bomb will explode on your face. Something along those lines.

You know, like sudden death....(Sarcasm)

Tactics are all about risk and reward, and the only risks involved with items are totally random and have nothing to do with adaption. A good example of this is the hammer head falling off, how is there skill involved?

The "Bomb Trauma" as you decided to put it, is more common than most would care to think and most would take care not to take the risk when something important is on the line. I myself lost my Gamespot tournament because of one of these supposedly rare occurrences.

Bottom line, you have no basis for claiming that items are the way to play, and the far more ludicrous claim that they in fact that more skill and awareness. Items in all incarnations of smash are just a lesson on poor balancing, and while this may be acceptable for casual players, those who care about the outcome of a match and regularly win without the random factors thrown in by items and random stage effects have no need for them. There is a reason that the competitive community is largely in favor of the absence of items, and rambling on with barely comprehensible posts will not change a thing.

 

[DanteSmash7]

Once you remove a portion of the game, "items" and/or "stages". Which = more tactical. You are in essence applying a what?

Handicap.

As for the Bomb Trauma, it still exist, this thread is littered with hypo examples of said theory. But the stages also contribute the tactical essence of the game. When you remove these factors you kill a certain portion of the game. In doing so, well to me at least and many others. You are cutting away at "Smash Spirit" .

(Side note)

Even Sak maker of the game added tripping. So the random factor is put into the core of the game. Taking away items simply chips away at the tactical essence of the game. Same applies for removing stages. When something happens that is out of your control,

You can "whine" or you can adapt and take it head on. Like a "real" pro.

 

[King Axel]

A few hours ago, I played that Skyworld event match where you have to fight all of Brawl's newcomers. This will sound ridiculous, but you know what? I failed the event FIVE TIMES IN A ROW due to explosive items appearing right in front of my face, and all when I was charging a forward smash. In all of the scenarios. Three of them were due to explosive capsules/crates, one was a smart bomb, and one was a bomb-omb.

You have no idea how mad I was.

Even worse, there was nothing I could do about it. (Even worse, I couldn't take a movie for you, since it was an event match.) It was ridiculous. It was unbelievable. But it happened.

Of course, with an Event Match, the good thing is that you can always go back and do it again. But this wasn't even a pro-match. I'm no pro; I'm just a guy who likes to play with his friends, items or no (preferably the latter during serious matches). I can't speak from experience, but I'm sure that if there's money on the line, and things like this happen, it's game over. I've only watched YouTube videos, but from what I can tell, the people who you're talking to are viciously good at what they do; they'll punish you for one single misstep. So whatever. Even if you can, theoretically, escape from an explosive or something by side-rolling, the opponent is (as someone's already said, I believe) just going to smack you down during your after-dodge frames. And that's just the explosive items. What about, say, that clock-thing that slows you down? I don't believe that the opponent can "adapt" from an item that leaves the wide open. And as everyone's already said, it's a helping hand given to someone who doesn't even deserve it. A "fair match" is one with no handicaps; at least, that's what I believe, though I don't know what you think, Dante.

To counter the bomb argument, all you've said is "that rarely happens ". But it does happen. And seeing as you are a person who likes to play with ALL items, not just SOME, these bombs are a part of your game. So when this inevitably happens, what are you going to do about it? Adapt? No, you can't, because you'll be dead.

I can see the point you're trying to make, but not only is it flawed, there is no point in bringing it up here. I don't understand why you even decided to make this thread. Have you used the search function and read the threads of other people who have made the claim you are making now?

As for stages, I don't have time to make a statement for that, but the reason why some people play the game is because they want to take on their opponent and see who is truly better, with no "helping hands". Some stages do, in fact, give benefit to certain characters. I really don't argue about stages too much, and I play on all of them (though FD being my favorite), but you really have no right to criticize the way people play. I'm fine with people who like items. It's when people start taking opinion as fact and bashing another person's opinion. We understand that you think items lead to adaptation. But that is an opinion. Please stop trying to lay down the law for what you have stated to be a game, in which there are many variations of playing.

 

[Thino]

handicap is when a player got a disadvantage over another , playing with no items or certain stage off doesnt put anyone at disadvantege , its the opposite it cuts off an advantage some players may have on like i explained in my previous post if u read it
i can also say that me and many others , playing with items kills the smash spirit its something really relative
ur just making it sound like not playing with the default options automatically takes the smash spirit away
or omitting some part of the game automatically take the spirit away?

u could also say that not playing coin battle kills the smash spirit cuz ur ignoring a whole set of tactical skill it requires to obtain coins and steal them from ur opponents and not playing this way takes away the smash spirit

according to that logic the only way to play without killing the smash spirit is to play some metal curry giant tiny stamina stage creator subspace wi-fi multi-man hrc sound test stock time items on very high brawl BECAUSE playing without ONE of these options automatically KILLS the smash spirit , amirite?

 

[DanteSmash7]

What I think and what I know. Is above your post.

Brawl isn't Melee. And you cant apply the same competitive "mainstream" rules from Melee to Brawl without chipping away at the overall the "Smash Spirit".

Perfect example, Tripping.

 

[Thino]

what are u calling smash spirit anyway?
and why would applying the same rules chip away from the smash spirit more in brawl than melee?
if they are the same rules wouldnt it take away the same amount of "smash spirit" away as melee?
what does tripping have to do with competitive rules?

 

[H0lic]

And the items are generated randomly, so you have no clue what your gonna get. Could be a huge freaking bomb to the face or a heart. (Unless you tampered with the item settings.)

This sentence explains why I don't like items.

They make the outcome of the match more random. Some people enjoy luck based games, some people don't. I happen to be someone who doesn't. I don't mind people who do, as long as they don't push their opinions on other people.

 

[Frey]

So If I pick Akuma in a tourney in SF2Super turbo Its perfectly legal, even if he is broken and can **** anyone relentlessly? Fun, considering even a meh guy can pwn the **** out of a super pro with akuma. Same thing with items, Akuma Was banned from tourneys due to his brokenness.

I'd Say 85% of the items give a game breaking advantage to the guy who is faster, and therefore will not be allowed in tourneys. Smaller items that provide a nuisance rather than a boost, can be played in those alternative tourneys that will allow items. However, even they are going to ban ones that give you guaranteed ko's, heck even the bat could be considered that since it can *** **** you due to it being thrown.

So I doubt, hammers, Large health ups(food is fine) Bombs of any nature, pokeballs, assist trophies, smash balls, etc, will be allowed in tourneys. Face it, they play the way they want, and what you say won't change ****. The rules were made by people who can 5stock most of us, so I actually do think the rules are valid, so why not listen to them, instead of whining about what you think is pro?

 

[DanteSmash7]

Triping

what are u calling smash spirit anyway?
and why would applying the same rules chip away from the smash spirit more in brawl than melee?
if they are the same rules wouldnt it take away the same amount of "smash spirit" away as melee?
what does tripping have to do with competitive rules?

Its random, you cannot control it. Ergo, it is unbalance if someone trips in none item battle. But you adapt to it.

Same applies...

Thats why the creator implemented tripping.

 

[Thino]

the difference is that you can turn off items you know that right?
so i dunno in which way it would change tournament rules lol
plus u didnt explain me what is that smash spirit ur talkin about yet

 

[Zarckoh]

I don’t like randomness in matches so that’s why I usually turn items off, yeah, some of them require skill to use but you can’t control the places where they spawn. Like when you are charging a fsmash and then a exploding capsule appears , there are some other things about these that only adds luck to the match. But I still like to use them in FFA, items are fun for friendly matches, I wouldn't like to see them in all of the tournaments.

 

[MookieRah]

But you adapt to it.

I like the concept of "adapting" to "randomness." That is a fun oxymoron. Don't you understand that you can't actually adapt to random? You can adapt to using items effectively, which doesn't take much effort to learn to be honest, but you can't adapt to the random nature of items. To say otherwise is a logical fallacy.

No matter what you say, because items are random they will always be unbalanced. I don't want luck to be any more important to the outcome of my matches than they already are with BS tripping mechanics in place.

 

[DanteSmash7]

the difference is that you can turn off items you know that right?
so i dunno in which way it would change tournament rules lol
plus u didnt explain me what is that smash spirit ur talkin about yet

Yes I did, if the maker of the game made it mandatory. That randomness take place. Even in none item battles. Why do you think so?

 

[Anonyman]

none






____________________

 

[H0lic]

Its random, you cannot control it. Ergo, it is unbalance if someone trips in none item battle. But you adapt to it.

Same applies...

Thats why the creator implemented tripping.

How can you adapt to something that you're never ready for? There are far too many situations in which you can trip.

While it's techinically true that you can adapt to tripping, it will almost always leave the game unbalanced, giving an undeserving person an advantage over their opponent. If there's an option to not allow tripping, then why wouldn't you turn on that option (assuming you wanted a fair battle)? I really don't understand how adding unnecessary randomness to a game adds to the fairness of it.

Unfortunately, as of now, it's impossible to disable tripping. But you can, however, disable items-something that also adds luck to games.

 

[Thino]

Yes I did, if the maker of the game made it mandatory. That randomness take place. Even in none item battles. Why do you think so?

why should I spend my time asking myself why implemented tripping or the option to turn off items? in competitive play I just focus on eliminatiing most of the luck based events .
tripping is unavoidable
I deal with it, I dont adapt to it
whats that smash spirit ur talking about btw?

 

[greenblob]

No one's arguing that many of the items add tactical depth to the game. Items themselves aren't to blame. It's the randomness that we want to turn off. If instead of items randomly appearing, there was an "item equip" option in which you get to pick an item to start off and respawn with, I wouldn't have a problem with that (on paper, anyway).

 

[DanteSmash7]

Deal....

You deal with tripping yeah.... you mean adapt if you haven't already. Doesn't answer my question 2 why he implemented it. Hint hint.

And equip them sounds... idk. Not a bad idea but...

 

[Chaosblade77]

This topic fails just like every topic on the same subject. I don't see why new guys even bother posting this kind of stuff since it's obvious it's been posted hundreds upon hundreds of times before.

The guy who made this topic obviously isn't a competitive player, he doesn't play in tournaments or play for money. So why is he bothering trying to change how other people, people he will probably never even play against, play the game? People who play in tournaments don't say "I want to risk not winning by turning on items and adding a randomness factor into play."

No one cares if items take "more skill." The only added skill items require is knowing how the items work and what you can do with them. I doubt anyone who plays regularly does not understand the intricacies of items. "This is a motion sensor bomb, I wonder what I should do with it?" Along those same lines, you learn to play around items. Just because I don't have too much problem taking my brother out even though he has a golden hammer doesn't mean I'd like to have money on that.

I'm not a competitive player in the aspect of going to tournaments or anything of that nature. However, it's obvious why anyone who does do those types of things would play with items off. I tend to play with them on low while playing with friends and just to play, but when we are actually playing to see who is better, in a "skill match" sort of thing, items are always off because they can and will affect the outcome of matches. I've never played an online match where the outcome wasn't affected by items, for example.

As far as using Melee standards like "No items" for Brawl, that's not a "Melee Standard," it's removing a part of the game that negates part of the skill in the match. Just because Brawl forces random things like tripping doesn't make it right to add even more random occurrence to the match. It's along the same lines as saying "I failed one class, so I might as well fail another."

Items are also not "the right way to play." If they were, why is there an item switch? Why is there a "none" option on it? Just because it's the default setting doesn't mean it's right. Along the same lines, are you not playing the right way if you don't play with the default button settings? Are you not playing the right way if you play classic on Very Hard instead of Normal, since that is the default setting? Or playing with five stock instead of three? Or playing a coin match instead of time?

You even said that you prefer stock matches to time, or at least implied it by saying time matches are only good when you have a limited amount of time to play. That's not the default setting in the same way that items off is not a default setting.

A topic on this board isn't going to change how anyone thinks... but it doesn't stop people from trying.

 

[Jooce Bocks]

I like the concept of "adapting" to "randomness." That is a fun oxymoron. Don't you understand that you can't actually adapt to random? You can adapt to using items effectively, which doesn't take much effort to learn to be honest, but you can't adapt to the random nature of items. To say otherwise is a logical fallacy.

No matter what you say, because items are random they will always be unbalanced. I don't want luck to be any more important to the outcome of my matches than they already are with BS tripping mechanics in place.

I had to quote this for the high level of truth that is spoken. You don't adapt to random occurrences. You don't adapt to tripping; you deal with it. I start a dash, I fall, then I get up. There is absolutely nothing there that can ever possibly be adapted to. You can never foresee a trip so that it can be used for your advantage. You get slightly annoyed at the (in my opinion) ridiculous game mechanic, get up, then continue fighting again.

Why did Sakurai add it? To make a minor inconvenience on us. There is no other seemingly valid reason. Now let me ask a question I haven't seen you answer: If he wanted to maintain this level of randomness you are implying, why did he, instead of adding tripping, simply NOT add an Item Selector or Stage Selector Menu?

 

[thesage]

Sakurai put in tripping cuz he felt like it lol. There MIGHT be a way to avoid it, but nobody knows yet.

And to get back to your main point, items were allowed in competitive play... for like three years. There were turned off in melee because they spawn randomly, the ones that weren't banned are not worth using, and exploding capsules.

In brawl the only items that are possible to use in competitive play are... well there's only one, the smoke ball. How much does that add... it's actually a hindrance to pick it up >.>

And please stop with the "none items"

 

[DanteSmash7]

The fact is people, do care. As they have posted. And this debate isnt the same in compared to Melee, cause. They are different games....

Not to hard to understand really. But like you said one must try.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

Please, keep this thread going.

Seriously, I can't find entertainment this good anywhere on youtube.

EDIT:

I'm kidding. OP, you are an idiot, not a source of anything good.

 

[Icarus Descent]

Does normal walking cause tripping?

 

[Darkslash]

Xen, am just saying. If players want to get better overall, Items is the way to go. That is why the random factors keeps you on edge. Now in regards to a item spawning on them, that does happen. But if your excuse is that, out of best 2 out of 3. It's you, not the system.

Hmmm if players want to get better over all Items are the way to go.......... is not good. Players will then rely more on items then their own fighting capabilities and then will lose in a real match. I'm not going to the E.B games tournament for the sole fact that they will have items on. If i'm pared up with a guy who is bad and uses items to his advantage, then he will win, becuase he always rely on items. But if no items are present he would most likely lose due to the fact he has no items to rely on his skill.

 

[DanteSmash7]

Maybe

Does normal walking cause tripping?

Cant say it does. I have tripped while walking so.

-kin3tic-c4jun-3

Trolls, gotta love how they bump my post? Tsss. Try to contribute something....oh wait nm.

 

[MorpheusVGX]

The True Spirit of Smash

Dante, I am with you on this thread. I will talk about the Smash Spirit. The Smash Spirit is what grows on you when you play competitively and with all your effort on 4 player FFA items-on matches. The survival and warrior spirit to adapt to anything that may happen on the battlefield. It may be a pokemon throwing flames at you, or the stage exploding into a river of magma. Anything. To adapt and survive. If you are killed, well then, you just try to be more careful on your next life (I suggest 5 stock matches when playing with items). To camp a little, hit, run, hide, attack. When you have always played with items, you grow this kind of spirit. You enjoy all the game has to offer, and you play to dominate and win.

So when you see people crying about shutting items off, they seem like cowards and limited players. They take away fun and variety, and demostrate little Smash Spirit.

Why is this THE Smash Spirit? Because is born while playing the game as the creator conceived, expanded and worked for. Brawl was enriched with items, final smashes and assist trophies. And yet many of these elitists want to overrate item play and the True Spirit of Smash. I don't really think I will convince you of this, I just want to meet other "true smashers" (sorry I this offends you, but I am already tired of "no item" elitists).

 

[Jooce Bocks]

Xen, am just saying. If players want to get better overall, Items is the way to go. That is why the random factors keeps you on edge. Now in regards to a item spawning on them, that does happen. But if your excuse is that, out of best 2 out of 3. It's you, not the system.

I feel like commenting on this quote as well. How do items keep you on edge in a reasonable manner? Am I supposed to actually be able to know when, where, and how items are going to spawn at each and every moment of the match? Being pressured by an opponent keeps me on edge. Having to come up with a new way to combo once an opponent learns to avoid my tactics keeps me on edge. Items....keep me hoping that they will spawn in a way that could be possibly beneficial to me and not to my opponent.

Also, like one of my earlier posts, best 2 out of 3, 3 out of 5, or even 6 out of 10, with this much randomness, are strong subjects of chance. While the better player is likely to win the majority of a long span of matches, those few matches where items completely screw you over can occur within the first few matches of playing. It is just as probably that dumb luck destroys me in rounds 1, 2 and 3 as it is to occur in round 15, 76, and 82. As stated earlier, you CANNOT predict random or control probability. It should be up to the player to win, not chance.

 

[DanteSmash7]

Thats aight, when it comes down to it. At the end of the day someone is gonna trip and "loose money" cause he/she tripped. Oh gosh....what to do...

 

[chunkysoupy]

I like how this entire thread spiraled into a mess when THE SECOND AND THIRD REPLIES WOULD HAVE SUFFICED.

Dante, you don't play for money, any you probably never will. Stow it. Brawl and Melee may not be the same game, but guess what? THEY ARE STILL BOTH FIGHTING GAMES. THAT MEANS YOU TAKE ALL RANDOMNESS OUT TO PLAY COMPETITIVELY. Go play for money in a real tournament (not a school one) and you can see why items are taken out.

Play in a recognized tournament.Play in a recognized tournament.Play in a recognized tournament.Play in a recognized tournament.Play in a recognized tournament.Play in a recognized tournament.Play in a recognized tournament.Play in a recognized tournament.Play in a recognized tournament.Play in a recognized tournament.Play in a recognized tournament.Play in a recognized tournament.