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So my buddy says charizard is OP.

Szion

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
329
He goes on about his "high priority" and rediculous vertical catching ability.

He won't listen to me, but he will listen to a large amount of people saying similiar things.

I don't believe charizard is remotely OP, (from what i understood he was near bottom tier when he came out..)
Is there anyone thatcan prove either him or me wrong?
 

PrincessAzula

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
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78
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Dallas, TX
In my opinion Zard has two main weaknesses:
  • Very very susceptible to combos
  • Can't deal with projectiles at all (This is huge)
 

Yomi-no-Kuni

Smash Lord
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Sep 2, 2007
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charizard is nowhere near bottom tier... I don't know yet how good he'll end up being...
some problems are: Nairs are relatively punishable. So most nairs on shield can be punished with a WD OoS. Once ppl figure this out charizards zoning won't be as effective anymore.

Because of his unexpected speed (horizontaly and verticaly), his wierd knockback angles (difficult DI) charizard is amazing if the opponent doesn't know the matchup.

Charizard is not OP, mainly because he doesn't have much to deal with campiness imo, except for his speed.
 

metroid1117

Smash Master
Joined
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Chester, IL
In my opinion Zard has two main weaknesses:
  • Very very susceptible to combos
  • Can't deal with projectiles at all (This is huge)
This, plus slow horizontal air speed.

People believed Charizard was bottom tier in Demo 2.1, but he's been on the rise since Demo 2.5; from what I've seen in the Tier List thread, most people now place him in the upper 50% of the cast or so. As Yomi said, Charizard is extremely difficult to deal with if you don't know the match-up - he juggles extremely well, is great at tech chasing, and has an easy time killing vertically. Although he is extremely fast on the ground and has a lot of range (jab/DTilt), his size and limited aerial mobility cause him to get locked down by projectiles pretty easily. Even so, he seems to be viable from the match-ups I've played (which isn't much compared to other tournament players).
 

ItalianStallion

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 2, 2011
Messages
380
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Springville, CA
Charizard is nowhere near bottom tier. My friends say Zard is OP as well and they play the matchup all the time. He does have very exploitable weaknesses as were already said in this thread, but a Zard player can learn to get around it. I would say he is at a very comfortable place where is a strong enough character to succeed, but not proven broken enough to deserve the nerf bat.
 

Yomi-no-Kuni

Smash Lord
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i've played vs. tero a bit, and apparently he's decided to make it his mission to see charizard nerfed :D there may be a post about charizard coming somewhere on the board :D
 

Nausicaa

Smash Lord
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Mar 7, 2013
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This, plus slow horizontal air speed.

People believed Charizard was bottom tier in Demo 2.1, but he's been on the rise since Demo 2.5; from what I've seen in the Tier List thread, most people now place him in the upper 50% of the cast or so. As Yomi said, Charizard is extremely difficult to deal with if you don't know the match-up - he juggles extremely well, is great at tech chasing, and has an easy time killing vertically. Although he is extremely fast on the ground and has a lot of range (jab/DTilt), his size and limited aerial mobility cause him to get locked down by projectiles pretty easily. Even so, he seems to be viable from the match-ups I've played (which isn't much compared to other tournament players).
I think the slow air-speed is a massive factor in the 'susceptible to combos' thing. Other than that, it doesn't really factor in any combos of his own, and only takes place in significance regarding recover, which doesn't matter extensively.

He's solid for sure, but he needs room.
Take that away, and Charizard is in trouble. If you stay on Charizard's face aggressively, he'll have troubles dealing with it, but if you do so in a way that will just get you Jabbed/N-aired, then you're in trouble and doing it improperly, which will get you killed because Charizard has strengths in that.

To add to ItallionStallion's comment. Charizard is strong and easy enough to succeed to with great extents, but the better people get at playing both with AND against Charizard, the more of his game will gravitate to simply getting space and playing safe. He won't be able to charge at people, with few exceptions, and the pressure on his face will literally be where the frame-work of a match takes place, which is what he'll have to work with, and he CAN work with that. It just won't be as straight-lined as getting pressure vs massive conversions of hits.
 

LeeYawshee

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He's not OP, but he's definitely not bottom tier. However a lot of the "higher tiers" can punish him with relative ease.
 

Szion

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
329
Late. My friend plays as Fox.

He plays like he doesnt have reflector unless you're link.
 

Tlock

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
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Atlanta, Georgia
Late. My friend plays as Fox.

He plays like he doesnt have reflector unless you're link.

Even at low level play (which is what this Fox is since he doesn't use shine) Fox is still an amazing character because of his abuseable up smash, speed, and amazing aerials. Charizard is just much worse than Fox at every level of play.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
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4v4? That's eight people! What Smash game are you playing?

I call free for all 4v4 because technically speaking it's 4 people all against each other. I suppose that was confusing.

On a side note, I will be disappoint if SSB4 doesn't expand the max number of people capable of participating in one round to at least six. That'd be cool.
 

Szion

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Jan 26, 2013
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Well, seeing as there are no GC support, 4 wii mote support atm, and a gamepad...i dont think we can have more than 5..
 

WizKid911

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Feb 22, 2013
Messages
207
I dont think there should ever be mor than four players! You guys are crazy if you think that would be fun. Maybe if there were some type of minigames involved. More than four people would be the most annoying thing ever. Now i will say that if they did something with the new wii controller where you have to avoid that person while fighting eachoher would be ok.
 

Sword of Battle

Smash Rookie
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
Messages
2
I can't help but be one of those that also feels that Zard may be OP. He's my friend's main ever since we started playing PM this summer, and every time we face off he continues to use his most annoying moves that seem to have ridiculous priority and range such as Zard's forward B, and his up tilt. I have not found any direct move that goes through it, and works as a great anti recovery move, a little too well in fact. I recently had another friend play against his Zard and the first words out of his mouth was that he was OP, and this was after many, many matches.

Not to sound too boastful, but we're both very adept at the smash series, and through our many local tourneys it's always been he and I playing as the final two. But it seems as if he's gravitated to another broken char. since his vanilla brawl char. was MK. It feels like a justified observation since he uses Zard in a very similar "cheap" way.

Now it's not that I can't beat his Zard, I've done it quite a few times, as many different chars. such as Mario, DK, Wario, ROB, Lucas etc. but even with that it certainly feels that Zard needs a bit of a rebalance. I'm unsure of the current matchup numbers, but there's a definite inconsistency in how each of our match ups play out. I've never had this much trouble with any of his other chars., like Lucario, squirtle, or Ivysaur.

So yea I'm a proponent that Zard is a bit OP even if it's just a couple of moves.
 

Kally Wally

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1. I think you're saying "OP" when you actually mean "poorly designed." Is this assessment accurate?

2. All claims of character imbalance should (must, really) be presented alongside video evidence. Record a video.

Don't have a capture card? Point a camera at the screen.

Don't have a camera, or can't get watchable video out of it? Use the Wi-Fi set, record a replay to your SD card, and upload it.

If there is imbalance, it will be taken into account. If you're just bad, you will be given advice on how to improve.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
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Zard is very one-note and very easy to play around. He doesn't quite telegraph his moves, but it's easy to work around them and find openings if you space properly. Charizard's side-B is a very annoying edgeguarding tool, but really ... what else does he have in that department? He's an exceptional juggler - but so is Wolf, and just like Wolf it's just a part of Zard's core character design and the way he's supposed to play. I beat a lot of characters with Charizard but spacies, Shiek, Zelda, Snake and Ivy (ironically) really make me work for a win, while it's very easy for me to out-pressure him with Wolf or out-space him with Ike or Marth, or just out-camp him with Link. He's a very unique and (in my opinion) well designed character, but has exploitable weakness, including an inability to deal with rushdown or range and a somewhat linear playstyle.

Videos for advice isn't a terrible idea, though.
 

Szion

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
329
1. I think you're saying "OP" when you actually mean "poorly designed." Is this assessment accurate?

2. All claims of character imbalance should (must, really) be presented alongside video evidence. Record a video.

Don't have a capture card? Point a camera at the screen.

Don't have a camera, or can't get watchable video out of it? Use the Wi-Fi set, record a replay to your SD card, and upload it.

If there is imbalance, it will be taken into account. If you're just bad, you will be given advice on how to improve.
By OP i mean overpowered.
He has no video evidence of said imbalance.
No, my pinnacle studio disc requires an access key that i used for my old computer.
Camera? my phone doesnt take very long vids at all..
I MIGHT be bad, but i've never lost any of my school projectm tourney's, so i really wouldn't know
 

Tlock

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
171
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Atlanta, Georgia
Charizard is not OP; he is actually in the bottom half/third of the cast in many people's eyes. I'm fairly certain that in 3.0 he will receive more "buff-tweaks" than "nerf-tweaks" and will be a more formidable opponent than he is now.

Charizard is a character who has favorable or advantageous matchups against a portion of the cast, but gets countered pretty hard by the rest. Hopefully 3.0 will address this issue somehow.
 

metroid1117

Smash Master
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IMHO, Charizard may seem "OP" at lower levels of play where people aren't exploiting every weakness (not calling anyone out here, just making a blanket statement) in the same way that Sheik is OP for Melee casuals; both have combos that require minimal technical proficiency relative to their immense profits and both have weaknesses that are hard to properly exploit without adequate match-up experience and technical proficiency.
 

BackwardCap

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My friends are starting to think that Charizard is over powered now too. I just juggle them in the air racking up tons of damage and convert into ceiling KOs. Now they want him nerfed saying that it's unfair he's strong, fast, and gets good recovery.
 

Iceman

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Dec 20, 2013
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I call free for all 4v4 because technically speaking it's 4 people all against each other. I suppose that was confusing.

On a side note, I will be disappoint if SSB4 doesn't expand the max number of people capable of participating in one round to at least six. That'd be cool.
Sorry I'm pretty sure the way you are using the term 4v4 is still wrong. Sorry I just had to say something. It hurt my soul.
 

Player -0

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My friends are starting to think that Charizard is over powered now too. I just juggle them in the air racking up tons of damage and convert into ceiling KOs. Now they want him nerfed saying that it's unfair he's strong, fast, and gets good recovery.
Play some ROB and see if they care, then play like, weegee and do a bunch of shoryukens...

ROB is strong, fast, and has a good recovery. He can probably exert more pressure offstage than Charizard can.

Also make sure your friends can DI ._.
 

BackwardCap

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We're all noobs, none of us know how to DI properly. One of us doesn't even believe it exists.
 

Pseudomaniac

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Jan 18, 2011
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Charizard is pretty irritating, but not OP. My brother mains Charizard since he has tons of annoying crap he can use against my mains (he can just generally pummel Luigi, juggle Samus like crazy, and punish any little mistake I make with Wolf with extended tech chase chaingrabs and a hard-to-beat ledgeguard), but I can still pretty consistently beat him. Just be sure to space properly, DI well out of juggles, spam projectiles, and mix up your getups so you don't get tech chased.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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Wolf v/s Charizard is a surprisingly even matchup, only slightly in Wolf's favor imo. Wolf can also juggle Charizard better I feel, extra jumps mean squat when that airspeed makes you a sitting duck. I've dair-dunked recovering Chari's pretty often.
 

FlamingForce

Smash Journeyman
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Jun 5, 2013
Messages
390
IMO chari is just extremely easy to play and win with compared to the MU knowledge you need to play around him, he's surprisingly good at getting out of combos if you're not really on point while the char itself combines an insane amount of hitstun with followup moves that can connect from very far off while his survivability and in-cre-di-ble recovery give him a huge margin for error.

IMO at the moment he's basically jigglypuff, only charizard doesn't die nearly as fast as she does and has more range and a better recovery and combos
 
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