So can we all just admit Dedede went from being a good tiered character to F?

[synesthe-sia]

Nah, I was playing against a Mr. G&W yesterday and I was using Sheik. I switched over to Dedede for some reason (I never played Brawl that much) and I started to win. I think he's pretty solid.

 

[ndayday]

I think he's good but not great. the thing that seems to shut him down the most is projectile users but some of the better characters don't have projectiles that really mess with him all too much, imo (the two characters I currently think are the best are sheik and maybe greninja). the most trouble for me comes with Villager, Link/TL, and Mega Man. you can say to shield and approach but it is not a fun matchup imo since you're on defensive almost by default. I've played a good Mega Man with other characters and I just KNOW it will suck with Dedede since even with his big ftilt hammer Mega Man will out range him with metal blades and crash bombs and make aerial approaches impossible with his other crap.

other than that he has a lot going for him. Towards the beginning I was throwing out gordos kind of absent-mindedly but at this point I know some situations where a gordo hit will hit them back towards me for an up air, etc. and I think an actual capable player will get a lot out of gordos used for defending the ledge, stage spiking, and depriving access to parts of the stage. also all but like, 5 attacks kill, and at reasonable percentages too. he has "combos" and the whole shabang, he's kind of a big d-d-deal

(that's enough trying to sound smart for a day)

 

[greatbernard]

The thing with Dedede is that he has polarizing match ups.

He's really good against some characters (like Little Mac) but suffers against others.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think Gordo Edgeguard is legit, specially that one that sticks Gordos to the Wall.

 

[ndayday]

I think Gordo Edgeguard is legit, specially that one that sticks Gordos to the Wall.

I used to think I knew how to do this because it happened every time I wanted it to, but now I can't figure it out? is it a specific angle or something?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Been messing with it for a while, and it feels random, maybe I'm off for few frames, but it doesn't feel consistent, it sometimes gets stuck in the wall (like 7/10), sometimes bounces off (2/10) and sometimes it just disappears (1/10).
Needs more experimentation.

 

[Jabejazz]

Is there a way to stick a gordo on the edge while remaining on the stage?

Otherwise I feel it's more practical to fling gordos at the guy recovering and yolo fairs/bairs/dairs/nairs/neutralBs

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I swear I managed a gordo to stick while on stage, but I haven't been able to replicate it. Otherwise, it's really finicky but jumping from the edge of the stage and angling it depending on the wall works around, if I had to pull a random number out of my butt, about 50% of the time. Custom Gordos improve their capability for being stuck to walls to around 90% depending on the type you use, and can be flung further out stage as well at the expense of losing some of your stage coverage. This could be a case where different gordos are good for different matchups, unlike some characters where I feel that one custom move is just flat-out superior to the default (i.e. Mario's Gust Cape).

Stage spiking with Gordo is always fun though. This is definitely a case where you'll probably want to play one or two other characters in addition to Dedede though since they're useless in certain matchups, and those matchups also happen to be the ones that aren't very fun for him.

 

[Nick Fury]

I honestly think you are over reacting, D3 is an amazing character in sm4sh, who care if some of his moves got nerfed he still has a really strong off-stage game, grab range (even if grab range got nerfed a bit), and his only bad aerial is his dair.

 

[Genghis_Connor]

DDD is definitely either the best or second-best heavyweight (it's between him and Bowser). He's much better than people give him credit for.

 

[Jabejazz]

I'd say he beats or goes even at worst against all of them.

Not sure if he's the best heavy, however.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

I agree with OP D3 is overall worse than brawl. His side special has some use but is usually a bad idea against a good opponent, his forward tilt has less range, no chain grab, (main reason he was viable in brawl) his back air is worse, grab range is worse, up tilt is worse... He's not bad but nobody is bad in this game. That's why it's really difficult to make multiple tiers for this game because the roster is overall more balanced than ever. Everyone is at least decent and there are a few really good characters. And yes the meta game is still developing but there are a lot less AT's to figure out and now that we have all been through melee and brawl the meta develops more quickly.

 

[ぱみゅ]

DDD was not good in Brawl only because of the CG. Sure, it added A LOT of pressure, and rewarded him for getting a grab, but a good opponent just won't fight directly a DDD on the ledge.

Overall he's decent now, has a good range, nice damage output, his aerials are all scary (even though he lost that godly Bair).
And Gordo Throw has its uses, it's just not a spammable projectile.
Only time will tell how good he ends up being, but I'd say right now he's a solid high tier character.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

It mostly derives from the flaws in our air game. Really slow air mobility, most attacks have a slow startup and big deadzones incongruent with the visuals (1st framers will always destroy you), none of our aerials have much priority (yea all those quick starts have better deadzones and range too), our KB isn't really that much better than anyone else once you take out the easy to avoid/shield smashes, and DDD isn't that much more tanky than other characters to where that can compensate for you. The only X factor is the Gordo and Sakurai is personally making sure that's a 0.X factor and random and punishing as f***. He also ruined our threat of follow up after a grab. Generally when you have a trifecta of Speed, Range, Power, if you have deficits in one or two, you're compensated by the third, but DDD gets none.

Edit: Also forgot to mention huge hitbox, which seriously dampens the benefit of slight weight.

Also not baseless whining: http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/

 

[Jabejazz]

Also not baseless whining: Popularity contest tier list

Not that I disagree with most of your points, but really, posting an eventhubs tier list really doesn't strengthen your case.

That being said, he's not at the lowest of low.

Regardless of how slow his air game is, the fact is that all of his aerials minus Nair are disjointed; giving them actual priority over some characters. Proper spacing will circumvent most of your issues there. He's also a much better character when close to the ground.

His gordos are risky, but there's a time and place to use them. Again, spacing is key when launching one, so you either have time to shield them, or they don't.

He's reliant on reads, trades and spacing more than a lot of characters. But proper spacing shifts TripleD from garbage to pretty freaking scary.

 

[Karthage]

The more I play him, the lower he goes in my mind.

I feel like 1 or 2 years from now, DDD won't even be able to get hits in.

I started with him in high, then top of mid, now I think he might actually be low.

He has a losing matchup against any character with a projectile that reflects gordo. That's just not a good place to be.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Not that I disagree with most of your points, but really, posting an eventhubs tier list really doesn't strengthen your case.

That being said, he's not at the lowest of low.

Regardless of how slow his air game is, the fact is that all of his aerials minus Nair are disjointed; giving them actual priority over some characters. Proper spacing will circumvent most of your issues there. He's also a much better character when close to the ground.

His gordos are risky, but there's a time and place to use them. Again, spacing is key when launching one, so you either have time to shield them, or they don't.

He's reliant on reads, trades and spacing more than a lot of characters. But proper spacing shifts TripleD from garbage to pretty freaking scary.

None of the tier lists are very legitimate right now though. Japan plays by their own rules. US is even more reactionary to popular opinion, so this is what we have to go on. At the very least it's showing us the popularity amongst enthusiasts, who watch some tournaments and have a decent idea who's kicking butt and who's not.

He is reliant on reads, but the more speedy characters can really dance circles around DDD, especially short hoppers that hit that corner deadzone where only your upsmash can reach. Buffed rolls/dodging further nullifies your chance of punishing malpositioning and with DDD a whiff means trouble. Since the changes have incentivized campy play this magnifies Gordo's projectile inferiority. DDD's then forced to be a rushdown character but has minimal tools equipped to do that.

As for aerials, he has disjointed hitboxes and you'd think that would be great priority, but bair and dair in practice don't outpriotitze much.

 

[Jabejazz]

The more I play him, the lower he goes in my mind.

I feel like 1 or 2 years from now, DDD won't even be able to get hits in.

I started with him in high, then top of mid, now I think he might actually be low.

He has a losing matchup against any character with a projectile that reflects gordo. That's just not a good place to be.

The more I play him, the more I'm enclined to disagree with the last sentence.

Not only do the large viable stage list allows us to freely use gordos in a lot of situations, Gordo itself isn't the end all-be all of our game. Also, characters like Samus, WFT, Link/Tink, Olimar I don't think outright beat us, the former two being most likely winning MUs for us.

None of the tier lists are very legitimate right now though. Japan plays by their own rules. US is even more reactionary to popular opinion, so this is what we have to go on. At the very least it's showing us the popularity amongst enthusiasts, who watch some tournaments and have a decent idea who's kicking butt and who's not.

This tier list is pure bandwagoning from what people see at a tournament. They know that some characters are good, but they have no idea what is bad, or what else is good. Only reason DDD is this low is because nobody knows what one can do, since very few players represent him.

Also, DK last spot? When he won against M2K's Diddy recently?
Ganondorf 44th?
Link 9th?

Come on.

He is reliant on reads, but the more speedy characters can really dance circles around DDD, especially short hoppers that hit that corner deadzone where only your upsmash can reach. Buffed rolls/dodging further nullifies your chance of punishing malpositioning and with DDD a whiff means trouble. Since the changes have incentivized campy play this magnifies Gordo's projectile inferiority. DDD's then forced to be a rushdown character but has minimal tools equipped to do that.

As for aerials, he has disjointed hitboxes and you'd think that would be great priority, but bair and dair in practice don't outpriotitze much.

I don't really play DDD as a rushdown character per se. Granted he needs to approach in most of his matchups, but rushing with a slow character like him doesn't apply correct pressure.

And you're right bair and dair are rough to effectively use. That's why we have UAir, which pretty much beats anything that tries to challenge it. And spaced fair is extremely potent.

Bair is harder to space correctly, but it actually covers a great quarter circle behind TripleD.

To be clear, the character clearly isn't in the higher tiers. Issue is that he's having very polarized matchups, demolishing half of the cast, and getting demolished by the other. Probably realistically places him in the mid/lower-mid end of the tier list. But he's not garbage by any means (no character really is, anyway).

 

[smashbroskilla]

I play DDD as a rushdown character kind of. I have about 500 matches on my 3ds with him online. Rushing down gives you more options with the Gordos when their used rarely. The less I use them the more I hit with them.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I gotta say, I use DDD sparingly, but I've never felt he's a bad character (at least not low-tier). Maybe it's a style thing, but I play mostly with slow aerial approaches via spaced Fair, falling Nair to punish, or empty jump into Ftilt, and I shield a lot grab a lot (rolls, spotdodges, shieldgrabs, OOS Nair, all are great options.
Also juggling is not bad for DDD, now that Uair is threatening you can either spam it or use it to bait an airdodge and Fair/Bair/Nair.

Gordos are used to force a reaction, it's actually great to use them, force the opponent to perform a laggy attack and use that moment to get closer. I actually don't expect Gordos to hit at all (unless a Custom)

 

[Steam]

D3 is this game's master of cheese. But once people know the matchup he's pretty bad.

 

[Dre89]

I don't see how anyone can rate him above bottom 5 in the game now. He has the laggiest moveset in the entire cast and has no reliable kill moves aside from utilt which doesn't kill early anymore. He's comboable, is a big target, has issues landing and his projectile often ends up backfiring on him because it gets reflected by virtually everything. I really like the character but he's the one of the few characters I have practically no idea how I'm supposed to play. He has no bread'n'butter options like his Brawl bair anymore. All his options suck once you start playing people who know not to approach you and just reflect all your gordos.

 

[Karthage]

I don't see how anyone can rate him above bottom 5 in the game now. He has the laggiest moveset of the entire cast and has no reliable kill moves aside from utilt which doesn't kill early anymore. He's comboable, is a big target, has issues landing and his projectile often ends up backfiring on him because it gets reflected by virtually everything. I really like the character but he's the one of the few characters I have practically no idea how I'm supposed to play. He has no bread'n'butter options like his Brawl bair anymore. All his options suck once you start playing people who know not to approach you and just reflect all your gordos.

This is definitely how I feel, but I still think he's above bottom 5( not by much though, and I think he's never going to get better, only much, much worse )

He plays like a fat, slow, inferior ness/diddy. You just gotta throw a whole lot because you get more out of landing a throw than anything else. You try to use gordo to set up an advantageous neutral and weight throws heavier than any other option.

As for reliable kill moves, his down smash comes out fast and his uair kills relatively low, and his dash attack can kill off a hard read. He can also kill off edge guarding with fair/bair. The last hit of his jab combo also has surprising kill power. Fsmash is horrible, Usmash is horrible, dair is horrible, tilts won't kill until super high, and throws are the same way.

The fact that so many characters aren't limited to just one projectile makes DDD's life miserable. You stop to shield one, another is already coming out, and the act of shielding gives them time to send out even more. It's obnoxious.

 

[Soul Train]

This is definitely how I feel, but I still think he's above bottom 5( not by much though, and I think he's never going to get better, only much, much worse )

He plays like a fat, slow, inferior ness/diddy. You just gotta throw a whole lot because you get more out of landing a throw than anything else. You try to use gordo to set up an advantageous neutral and weight throws heavier than any other option.

This comment makes me very sad. My heart hurts now ...

Inferior to Diddy? Maybe, in the same way that some might say Luigi is inferior to Mario; them's the tiers for ya. But unlike the banal Diddy, D3 is a unique, hilarious, deadly personality all unto His Royal Self.

Literally, ALL of D3's moves either 1. damage rack and lead into nasty resets, 2. knock away just right for setups, or 3. kill at stupid low %s. We're not even talking his ridiculous (best in smash?) edgeguarding game. 5 jumps + aerials + Gordo = they should be dead with one offstage read.

Otherwise, it sounds like you're throwing Gordos dangerously in neutral, without coverage. There are many strategies - but as a whole, (in neutral) never throw a Gordo where you can't cover its possible reflection with a hitbox of your own. With practice and the ability to subtly change Gordo speed and bounce height (jumps, pivots, sideB+down, etc), you should be at the advantage in that Deadman's Baseball game.

Besides. Crouch/The Royal Pose = S tier. What else do you want.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

I think D3 is terrible in 1v1 competetive settings. However, as a doubles partner or in a free for all he's much more viable. And he's very fun to use!

 

[Jabejazz]

I don't see how anyone can rate him above bottom 5 in the game now.

Because Samus, Doc, Mii Swordfighter, WFT and Kirby exist, for one.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

Because Samus, Doc, Mii Swordfighter, WFT and Kirby exist, for one.

A matter of opinion but d3 is worse than all those except doc and Mii swordfighter

 

[Jabejazz]

Willing to bet D3 has a much better MU spread than all 5 of them by a fairly reasonable margin.

Especially WFT, which is probably the worst character in the game at this point. She has much more troubles approaching (not that she has to, but her projectiles don't really help her to zone properly) and landing an actual kill than TripleD ever will.

Same deal with Samus.

Kirby is DDD lite; having a better combo game, but dying much earlier and not having really good kill setups either.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Might be my own bias towards the character but I think Doc is at least as good as Dedede, if not better. Granted I don't think either are particularly good characters, but I don't think they're bad either.

Then again I haven't been playing this game seriously recently, I've been more invested in PM/Melee, so I'm probably wrong.

 

[Jabejazz]

You guys have to keep in mind that even being bottom 5 doesn't mean much about the character.

The difference between a bottom tier and a high tier character really isn't like what it was in older games.
The difference between a mid tier and a bottom tier isn't very significant.

The worst character is probably at worst mostly -1s with a couple -2s and 1 or 2 -3 at worst.
There is no absolute garbage character in this game, that's how I feel at the moment.

D3 is this game's master of cheese. But once people know the matchup he's pretty bad.

If anything, Brawl DDD's chaingrab was more cheesy than anything Smash 4's DDD provides, although it was a powerful cheese.

Also, Bowser Jr.'s clown cart says hi.

 

[Dre89]

I haven't seen much of Kirby this game but he seems better than D3 because he's faster and can combo better than D3. Most importantly though he has a bread'n'butter aerial in his bair. The lack of a BnB move that D3 can be quite liberal with is what hurts him the most and is what makes his moveset feel so much laggier than everyone else's.

You guys have to keep in mind that even being bottom 5 doesn't mean much about the character.

The difference between a bottom tier and a high tier character really isn't like what it was in older games.
The difference between a mid tier and a bottom tier isn't very significant.

The worst character is probably at worst mostly -1s with a couple -2s and 1 or 2 -3 at worst.
There is no absolute garbage character in this game, that's how I feel at the moment.

It's like that now because everyone is still playing aggressive due not having fully fleshed out every character's frame data and options. Once that begins to happen the meta will become more defensive and D3 will struggle against most of the cast even more than he does now.

 

[Banjo-Kazooie]

This thread is disgusting and I disagree with it. Dedede is average and if it manages to be the worst it would only be because everyone in Smash Bros. 4 is so balanced compared to the other entries... except for the Diddy issue of course but lets hope that is temporary. But Dedede can still beat the higher tier characters.

Where I can agree is that Dedede gets a very difficult time with the fast characters. But its the problem of every heavyweight in every Smash ever. And still, its not as ridiculous to win with a heavyweight like it was Bowser vs Fox back in Melee.
Conclusion: Dedede is the best worst.

 

[MagiusNecros]

F stands for Fun for me. I just enjoy playing Dedede. His character is so endearing that him looking completely stupid at times can catch players off guard. Even some of his attacks have deceptive range.

 

[warionumbah2]

Going with this thread ddd is wft, game and watch, Dr mario,bowser Jr,mii swordfighter, Kirby, samus level crap.

 

[Rajikaru]

While he isn't one of the best characters, he's definitely solid. His ftilt and Gordo (reminder that you can change the angle at which you throw it) give him great spacing. He's good at pressuring with his nair and maybe his jab infinite. Also, his dgrab is just fine and his d-smash is pretty good for killing. If he actually had useful moves in his neutral b and down b slots, he'd probably be one of the best spacing/defensive characters in the game. Even WITH super armor, using DownB is basically summed up as "I want to kill but I don't want to use a smash because I want style points" or "I'm masochistic".

 

[Jabejazz]

Neutral B is great though. The move alone makes the Sonic MU less terrible than it potentially should.

 

[Rajikaru]

Neutral B is great though. The move alone makes the Sonic MU less terrible than it potentially should.

And that's about it. In what other situation would it be useful instead of a grab? Hell, even the grab would probably be more useful for Sonic if you get the timing right. It also requires you to get the prediction almost perfect, as if you use it too late Sonic will just power through before you suck him up.

 

[Jabejazz]

The day I'll be able to B-Reverse a grab in the air, I'll consider saying that inhale is a bad move.

 

[Rajikaru]

The day I'll be able to B-Reverse a grab in the air, I'll consider saying that inhale is a bad move.

I'll say it for you then: it's a bad move. Maybe if it had more options after you inhaled somebody instead of only being able to walk around a bit and shoot them forward, it wouldn't be so bad.

 

[dean.]

Inhale's pretty much the only thing that stops being from just standing underneath us and holding shield when we try to land.
I mean it's not amazing or anything but it holds a very clear niche in our aerial game.