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Snake in B-

SaltyKracka

Smash Lord
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So I'm part of the Brawl- project, and we're coming up on our deadline for an alpha release, but we have a problem. We're kind of stuck on what to do in breaking Snake. We have a sorta-build, but no real direction or idea of what to do with it. So how can Snake be more broken, and gain a very special, interesting new style while doing so? Where are buffs most needed/most obvious, what do you guys want most?

Please keep in mind that we're not looking for OHKOs, instant easy 0-death chains, or conventional chaingrabs.
 
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Make his NIKITA missiles travel as fast as Sonic if possible lulz

Make him flinch every attack no matter how high it can damage

Make his air games as good as Wario's if possible xD

That's all what I can think of
 

napZzz

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make his aerials good and increase his aerial mobility, if thats possible

speed up the power,range, percent, and recovery time of tilts

make it so he can throw out more nades at a time if possible? idk
 
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Make him also give him the ability to put more than just one land mines and remote mines
 

smashkng

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Snake needs a weakness. I think that should be that he easy to juggle. Make his air dodge have last 49 frames instead of 39, but keeping the amount of invincibility. I would increase the start-up of fair to 17 frames and reduce the cooldown a lot, reduce the landing lag of fair, nair and dair to 20 frames, his bair to 10 frames (to have an effective anti-juggling move) with disjoint to increase the priority of bair, have disjoint in nair (feet invincible) to beat anything that tries to compete with it, a lot faster IASA on Cypher (make him able to IASA as soon as frame 5), half the C4 start-up in the "now!" one... and needs combos. We can greatly reduce the knockback of uthrow so it combos (reduce the power of uair and have a HUGE horizontal disjoint+ far less cooldown), but can't lead into another grab. Speed up his grab into frame 6 instead of 8, make the hitbox of utilt keep even longer+ insane priority and making the sourspot as powerful as the sweetspot. I would suggest a stronger DA as well, with sourspot hitting like in vBrawl sweet while sweet has increased knockback. Dtilt has invincibility on his feet, with IASA on frame 20 and make the knockback so it combos. Jab 2 always combo into jab 3. The fsmash should have 30 frames start-up (which is still very slow), with a larger explosion and having a real safety if it hits shields. Nikita start-up and speed of it should be A LOT faster with barely any cooldown if he cancels it, to make it a great edgeguarding, a thing that Snake is mediocre at. More mines at the same time which can't hurt Snake and last a minute instead of just 25 seconds.

And either make him a bit lighter (still top, around 10 heaviest) or make him a larger target. It has no sense that he is in top 3 weight when he's a thin human.

More hitstun will probably hurt him, as Grenades are not as effective as a anti-combo.
 

Eternal Yoshi

I've covered ban wars, you know
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I'm making a broken Snake.
I'll upload the pac in a bit but here's a changelist of what I modified.
Code:
Jab 2 and 3 does slightly more damage, given aura effect.
Jabe 3 cooldown faster
Ftilt 1 trips more often, does more damage
Ftilt 2 does more damage given electric elemental
Utilt hitboxes mirrored to give range behind Snake, given fire element and added flame effect
Dtilt IASA frame a bit earlier
Mortar does more damage and a bit more knockback
Fsmash does more damage
Mine does more damage and knockback
Nair does more damage
Fair slowed down, given freeze effect
added obvious warnings
Choking speed about 3x faster
Fthrow and Bthrow have a higher knockback gain
Pulls out grenade faster
Cypher does more knockback
C4 detonation much faster
C4 explosion has more knockback base but lower knockback gain
Increased horizontal air movement.
http://www.mediafire.com/?dy2zmm54zyy
Quoted for beta pac I'm making of Brawl - Snake.

Triple choking speed FTW.
 
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F-smash should be as fast as wolf's f-smash xD

Make his d-air meteor smash (Final hit)

Smashkng said:
Snake needs a weakness
...

This is Brawl -

That means everyone is broken which means no weakness.
 

Kitamerby

Smash Hero
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It's a beta. I'm sure they will buff it sooner or later.
Actually it's because we found it more fun to zoom all over the place with super armor side B that goes across the stage as Ganon than running.

Ganon's fair is like 6 frames btw.

Also, Falcon doesn't need a priority buff. Just trust us on this one. If it really matters we made the knee like 3x as big or something.
 

Blank Mauser

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Make him shoot sticky bomb mortars and his grenades emit sleeping gas.

Also his Fsmash should cover half the stage, same with his C4. He should cover the entire stage with explosives with like 3 moves.

And all of his fair should spike, no flub crap.
 
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Make mortar slide have laser priority, make it a kill move and add invincibility frames to it. And give snake a better item glide, like one that moves him right outside of the explosion radius if he shield dropped a grenade. I'm not sure what applications a better glide toss could be used for. And the last thing is to get rid of all of the landing lag if you don't do Snake's aerials at the right height.
 

Virgilio

Smash Cadet
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can pull more grenades.
5 sounds good to me

more claymores. 2 or 3.

Can you make that his Dtilt to be another C4 planting? so he can put 2 C4 and detonate them separately.
 

smashkng

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More nades
Lagless moves
Make explosives stronger
More aerial mobility

Nuff' said.
Lagless is something Brawl- tries to avoid. But apart from things already mentioned he should be able to shield on frame 1 after pulling a Grenade.
 
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Actually it's because we found it more fun to zoom all over the place with super armor side B that goes across the stage as Ganon than running.

Ganon's fair is like 6 frames btw.

Also, Falcon doesn't need a priority buff. Just trust us on this one. If it really matters we made the knee like 3x as big or something.
To make this clear: CF's knee has about the same priority as Marth's fsmash. Srsly. It's hugely disjointed and does a ton of damage.

Make him immune to his own explosives. :D
This would be really hard; you'd have to **** with the things themselves. I hope that when Kirk finishes with ICs, he'll do snake; there are a ton of great ideas for snake that are just hard to do correctly.

Make him shoot sticky bomb mortars and his grenades emit sleeping gas.

Also his Fsmash should cover half the stage, same with his C4. He should cover the entire stage with explosives with like 3 moves.

And all of his fair should spike, no flub crap.
1. Really hard/really weird? Gas 'nades? Wut
2. That big is just too big. Fsmash could probably do with being way bigger though.

Make mortar slide have laser priority, make it a kill move and add invincibility frames to it. And give snake a better item glide, like one that moves him right outside of the explosion radius if he shield dropped a grenade. I'm not sure what applications a better glide toss could be used for. And the last thing is to get rid of all of the landing lag if you don't do Snake's aerials at the right height.
Buffing mortar slide is just not going to happen. It's just not. Snake's dash attack is too ****ing broken...

...

Because we turned it from Dash Attack Canceled Up Smash into Dash Attack Canceled Anything. Well, almost. I'm gonna have to make it so that you can't grab out of dash attack; imagine a grab with the range on snake's DACUS. We basically pushed the allow interrupt on snake's dash attack to about frame 5. This is on the snake pac we're currently working on...

Snake should be invulnerable while he's using cypher :/
Heavy Armor

Lagless is something Brawl- tries to avoid. But apart from things already mentioned he should be able to shield on frame 1 after pulling a Grenade.
This is prolly true.

@EY: I will try the pac out. Seems weird.

As far as snake goes, he's one of the characters where making him - is obvious, but hard. Like, there are, IMO three classifications as far as making a char fit in with Brawl-. There's the easiest one, where the most clear way to make him fit in is obvious and works easily (Sheik with her longtime invisibility, for example, is really easy to do and actually a bug, but a good idea nonetheless). Then there's the chars where the solution is right before our eyes and just really hard to pull off, like Snake. And finally, there's the chars where we just don't know what the hell to do to make them truly minus (Diddy, Marth, MK, ZSS...); mostly because they're already so stupidly broken with just the physics engine. MK sort of got a cop-out; we buffed what he had a bit and gave him some air speed, which all of a sudden knocked him up to the level where luigi is right now. :laugh:
 

Sinz

The only true DR vet.
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Make nikita an actually usable move. If possible just have it so you don't have to control the missle. It just shoots straight forward. Then if you want to have it drop you could do a side taunt.

Then, one idea i read was to be able to lay multiple C4. You could do this and have up taunt detonate.

Then the box should do 100% damage. This would be his remaining down taunt.

They can't remove the limit on Grenades from what I remember.

More damage from the mortar.

Increase sticky range.

Faster detonation of C4.

Just spewing ideas.

Increase knockback of Dtilt.

Increase knockback gain of Utilt but lower the base of it. (So it can be used for early comboing and late killing)

Jab 1 comes out faster.

Jab 2 has enough hit stun to actually like to Jab 3.

Cypher should have 15% heavy Armor.

EDIT: more ideas.

Lower the lag of the dash attack.

Increase the speed of dair.

Increase speed of Nair
 

smashkng

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That Box isn't fair. It's easier to land than Warlock Punch. Instead it should deal like 25% damage and kill at fairly low percents.
 

Eternal Yoshi

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I cannot remove the cap on projectiles currently.

I already made Cypher and the mortar stronger. Cypher sends you quite far in comparison.

Making him able to plant more than 1 C4 would mess with recovery, which is why I made the C4 faster and weaker, to guarantee a comeback from a cypher grab.

I do plan on increasing the speed of nair and dair about 1.25 times.

Making it too fast causes the hitboxes to not appear unless I speed up the in between animations.

I'll also fix Sakurai's mistakes in programming dair and bair's autocancel windows.

In the meantime, try the new choking speed in tandem with the strongr fthrow and bthrow.
 

Virgilio

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I dont think making the C4 weaker will do any good to snake. He already have a good recovery, and trade one of snake's signature moves and best sudden killing move (dont know if i said that right :/ ) that for more recovery power... I'm not sure about it. Plus, Snake is a heavt weight character, he survives a lot and have a good recovery.

What I meant with another C4, is replace the Dtilt/Dair with another C4 comand (independent from the Dspecial C4). So for example, I put a C4 (for killing in stage) with the DownB imput, and i save my another C4 for recovery (with the Dair imput). Just an idea, I guess its hard/impossible to do.
But dont make the C4 weaker xd
 

Panix

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Make his nades have a freeze effect, like lucas's

Nade > Nair would become a loved combo.

Edit: also make his Up+B instantly go up, and not have anything to do with momentum =)
 

Eternal Yoshi

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I can't touch the nades due to their location, the common3.pac.

Making Cypher go higher is simple, aparrently.

I'll fit that in the next version.

If you want C4 to be back to it's regular power level, then OK.
 

Eternal Yoshi

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LOL. I don't know how I can make him glide when he doesn't have an animation to glide with. putting in the parameters in PSA with no animation might cause the screech of death.

The cap on Mortars currently can't be removed at this time.

Anyway, I'm working on making Fsmash's explosion like a wave of 4 explosions going forward.
I got it the SFX and hitboxes working but I can't put a DL now.
Anyway, I need to improve on the gfx.
What makes it stupidly powerful is that trying to shield more than 1 wave can break the shield.
 
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How about nade thing? Explodes 5 times?

Snake should have super armor or invulnerability during his cypher.
 
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