smooth lander- the one custom equipment that should be legal

[Darrman]

Ok, I'll just say this. NO. As many above me have said, it would be a TO's nightmare to set up, plus it's all RNG. And we're allergic to RNG, right? Take Bowser's fsmash. It does 33% charged, with no boosters. With +67 attack including a hyper smash badge giving a 1.3x boost to smashes and increased charge time, he does a whopping 63 damage. Ouch. Uncharged, it still smashes shields in one hit (Against Lv. 5 Jiggly, though...) and deals a nasty 35 damage. Ten extra damage points? Ouchie. Plus it just invites grinding. The -61 defence does no favours.... I had a Mario smash him for that. If anyone wants more info, just ask.

 

[robinpup]

i posted something about this, and was deleted. yeah it should be legal!!

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

God sakes, I can appreciate the arguments that actually read what I write.

Stop bringing up the stats as if I'm suggesting we bring them in. The goal is to remove them from the equation. I may not agree with people like Mithost but at least he read my solution and presented an argument against it.

 

[Saito]

God sakes, I can appreciate the arguments that actually read what I write.

Stop bringing up the stats as if I'm suggesting we bring them in. The goal is to remove them from the equation. I may not agree with people like Mithost but at least he read my solution and presented an argument against it.

I acknowledge it, but to completely negate the stats would be nigh impossible without some insane luck.

Hence why I said a fair range.

I need to test how different -5 - +5 is to see how significantly it impacts the matches. if it is insignificant enough, the availability to use such an item would be much less of a hassle. It would be even better if the range is further because it makes the goal of getting the smooth landing on the character without going out of stat ranges easier.

In a perfect world I would be behind this 100% because smooth landing can and would definitely improve the competitive aspect of the game.

 

[Thinkaman]

Independent of stats, changing up the base timing on every aerial in the game to solve an imaginary problem is madness. Note how there is no experienced TO or community pillar advocating this.

Smash 4 has extremely low landing lag on most moves, extremely generous auto-cancel windows, and high shield damage. The idea that we need to make landing aerials better is hard to take seriously. Anyone who proposed this for Melee would be laughed out of the room.

Furthermore, the low shield stun means that long landing lag moves won't be safe on block even with a modest reduction.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Independent of stats, changing up the base timing on every aerial in the game to solve an imaginary problem is madness. Note how there is no experienced TO or community pillar advocating this.

Smash 4 has extremely low landing lag on most moves, extremely generous auto-cancel windows, and high shield damage. The idea that we need to make landing aerials better is hard to take seriously. Anyone who proposed this for Melee would be laughed out of the room.

Furthermore, the low shield stun means that long landing lag moves won't be safe on block even with a modest reduction.

At least you're reading what I write this time.

The reason someone would laugh someone out for Melee is because Melee has something that already does that with a push of a trigger.

 

[Thinkaman]

At least you're reading what I write this time.

The reason someone would laugh someone out for Melee is because Melee has something that already does that with a push of a trigger.

No, Melee has a mechanism that doubles your landing lag if you don't hit the extra button.

Lowering the lag further would mean that nothing is punishable on block, and players have no need to space aerials.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

No, Melee has a mechanism that doubles your landing lag if you don't hit the extra button.

Lowering the lag further would mean that nothing is punishable on block, and players have no need to space aerials.

As much as I trust your logic in the Melee world more than mine, you're gonna have to explain that first paragraph for me.

Didn't you say in your last post that high lag attacks wouldn't be safe on shields still? That sounds like a bit of back and forth there.

 

[Thinkaman]

As much as I trust your logic in the Melee world more than mine, you're gonna have to explain that first paragraph for me.

There's no reason not to cancel the lag. This makes it a penalty for not doing it, rather than a reward. Semantics, but we all agree this is the player experience of high level play.

Didn't you say in your last post that high lag attacks wouldn't be safe on shields still? That sounds like a bit of back and forth there.

In Melee, landing lag is moderately low across the board for almost all aerials, compared to Brawl and especially Smash 4. For contrast: Smash 4 has almost none on some, and "enough to always punish (if not spaced or auto-cancelled)" on others.

A little less landing lag in Smash 4 does almost nothing; already safe attacks are still safe, while unsafe attacks are still unsafe. (Exactly the way it should be.) A little less landing lag in Melee would make almost everything safe all the time.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

There's no reason not to cancel the lag. This makes it a penalty for not doing it, rather than a reward. Semantics, but we all agree this is the player experience of high level play.

In Melee, landing lag is moderately low across the board for almost all aerials, compared to Brawl and especially Smash 4. For contrast: Smash 4 has almost none on some, and "enough to always punish (if not spaced or auto-cancelled)" on others.

A little less landing lag in Smash 4 does almost nothing; already safe attacks are still safe, while unsafe attacks are still unsafe. (Exactly the way it should be.) A little less landing lag in Melee would make almost everything safe all the time.

That really is semantics. I'm just not going to argue with that because I don't either of us would get anywhere.

But in your last post you said nothing would be punishable on block. You have to pick one or the other. we're still talking about Smash4 here right?

 

[Leebee]

shield stun is so low in this game that so much stuff is punishable...

 

[RanserSSF4]

For me, it would be because I don't find the new game that much fun to play or watch, the constant poking with maybe a 3 hit tilt combo at the start of a stock is incredibly boring, it would be fun just to have a few more combos in the game.

It just sucks that we have this in the game, but only via equipment, because it's probably never going to be used, not matter how beneficial it is.



I do think it's worth noting that, due to the fact that it's a badge, we could use the exact same piece of equipment on every character and just deal with the slight stat increases/decreases for the sake of a more interesting game.

How is poking in Smash a bad thing? Melee had a lot of poking and spacing moves that lead to mix-ups and combos and that game is still entertaining. I understand Brawl, but poking isn't a bad thing in smash bros. going to be honest though, by reading your comment, it sounds more like you're one of those people who don't approve poking in Smash bros, but not all in other fighters.

Not trying to call you a Melee fanboy or anything, but both your comment and Scenrio's comment kind of sound like you want this game to be a Melee 2.0

Don't get me wrong, I do love Melee the most and I will admit, Smash 4 has several problems (Vectoring and huge blastzones being my biggest complaint), but Smash 4 is becoming my 2nd favorite smash game on a competitive aspect. If yo don't like Smash 4, that's fine, but I just like the game. Yes, it has problems that I think should be fixed, but I like it and enjoy it. Even the matches, most of the time, is entertaining to watch IMO.

 

[Leebee]

also, I don't like how people are framing this as "trying to fix Smash 4;" no one is advocating that. we're simply trying to try something out that is literally in the game to see how it would change things up.

personally: I have no rosy feelings for Melee. moving around in it is cool but all the characters I love to play are awful in it. it's not a game that I'm super interested in recreating.

I just feel like I dig a little experimenting with Smash 4. I'm totally in favor of doing custom movesets (when everyone's got them all unlocked of course ~x~) and this seems like a fun way to modify the game further. I like pressing buttons so more potential for combos is what I want~ :3

 

[RanserSSF4]

I would like to see this "smooth lander" equipment being used in competitive play. It could make combos even better than before. The only problem is the random stats it gives at random!

 

[Thinkaman]

Why do people keep mentioning combos? Landing lag has virtually no relevance to combos aka chaining attacks on-hit. Except for like, Fox dair, landing lag only affects how punishable non-auto-canceled aerials are.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Landing lag in Smash 4 isn't some immediate problem that requires a "fix at any cost" response, especially when our only fix is something like this. Let's take a step back for a second and look at the pros and cons of the proposed change. (This list is in no way complete on either side)

Pros:

- Faster gameplay (more combos, better spacing/approach options)
- More appeal from Melee/P:M fans
- Might make more characters viable
- Potential to explore more equipment in tournaments*

*Iffy on this one, because equipment+custom moves on link can make arrows do 70-100 damage each

Cons:

- Players are required to grind out three pieces of RNG based equipment that each have Smooth Landing AND balance each other's stats out to exactly zero
- A process to verify that these conditions are met before each individual match needs to be implemented
- Our main source of competitive matchmaking (For Glory 1-on-1) is rendered useless or gimped
- Players who don't have the time/luck/motivation to farm for this rare set of equipment can't compete
- The newly viable characters might become dominate, as the game was not balanced with universal smooth landing in mind.

I'm not going to base an argument off of this list. All I want you guys to do is to step back and think about what we'd actually have to go through as a game to implement this. We are asking nearly every player seeking competitive play to spend a ridiculously large (and random) amount of time playing through non-competitive modes just to have a legal and non-gimped version of the game available to them for tournaments. The only way out of this time-sink is to figure out save altering/decrypting/distribution, which opens up it's own list of problems for both accessibility and cheat prevention.

All of this for what, exactly? Less landing lag? A slightly faster game? In my honest opinion, it's not even close to worth the cons. Not even close. Smash 4 is already a great game. It has good pacing, combos, and rewards for smart play in ways no other smash game has had before. Would a smooth landing toggle be good in this game? Definitely. Is the toggle worth the days upon days of grinding smash run/stadium (or hours of save transfering/checking before tournaments) that is required for each player to even have a tournament legal copy of the game?

I do agree with your comment, but it's too bad most don't approve smart play or spacing or anything like that in smash bros.. All most of them want is combos, combos , COMBOS! I do like combos, but I always prefer mix-ups as they always lead to hype moments. Melee has these aspects mixed with L-cancelling, wavedashing and more. Most don't mind that, but that don't like it or approve it in other smash games. I understand Brawl, but still!

 

[Freakanoid]

I say there's no reason not to try it. The game just came out, why not experiment with all the variables? People are going to get cheesed early on while we work out the kinks, and that's fine. As someone else mentioned, Melee began with all items and stages, and that was eventually fine tuned. No point in screaming at something to be banned just because you tested it independently. We need to see how they work in a tournament environment and go from there.

 

[Leebee]

Why do people keep mentioning combos? Landing lag has virtually no relevance to combos aka chaining attacks on-hit. Except for like, Fox dair, landing lag only affects how punishable non-auto-canceled aerials are.

you still have recovery frames from aerials on-hit... with it gone, you can act faster and thus combo more things.

 

[Loki]

I do agree with your comment, but it's too bad most don't approve smart play or spacing or anything like that in smash bros.. All most of them want is combos, combos , COMBOS! I do like combos, but I always prefer mix-ups as they always lead to hype moments. Melee has these aspects mixed with L-cancelling, wavedashing and more. Most don't mind that, but that don't like it or approve it in other smash games. I understand Brawl, but still!

Thats generalizing, and that is a terrible thing to do my friend.

I for one always says that, if you want crazy speed, play Melee, if you want a more defensive style, play brawl. To a degree even today I dont understand the desire people has in turning brawl into Melee (Project M) but I still enjoy the game neverthless.

Point is, here in smash4 we have a "legal" mean to improve the game´s appeal. Its not just because of combos, so stop bashing them. This maybe improves combos games but as people mentioned it before, most of these improved times are too small to dramatically change the way they are played. In other words combos will not become insane. It can however allow for a tid bit more faster gameplay while still keeping all the elements that make smash4 unique from its predecesors.

You cant deny faster games are more appealing, you cant deny combos are more appealing than zoning. Both are very important, but from a spectator point of view, it is more intersting to see how people pummel each other than to how they stare and scare each other. We got to see this from every possible point of view, from every possble variable and not close ourselves to baseless judgement or biased opinions.

So, we need facts. We need information and data. We have absolutely no idea to what degree this equipment might affect the overall meta (wich in turn is still in diapers and will be like this for a while yet) so everything we are doing here is nothing but speculation. And how will we get data?, by actually testing it. By creating models and scenarios and testing how they work out. After that, after we have our info then we can generalize according to stadistics.

The good thing about smash4 is that the meta is barelly taking shape right now. This is the moment were we can start playing with said meta and shape it into many different forms and styles and see wich work and wich dont.

So this is not about making Smash4 more "Meleeish" or "combotastic". Its about finding out how we can make the meta evolve into a much more desired path, making it appealing to both pros, casuals, spectators and anyone who might show interest int this. If this particular items has the qualities to stir such a debate, to provide us with options worth testing and considering in order to make this meta even better, I am all set to try it out. Once we have actual data we can judge if it either makes or break the game.

 

[Raijinken]

I mentioned months ago that using equipment to tweak balance to certain "competitive" preferences would be a valid idea. No one seems to want to have to do anything past unlock characters, though. Any extra work is obviously not an innate part of the game, and shouldn't be considered for competitive reasons >.>

 

[Thinkaman]

I mentioned months ago that using equipment to tweak balance to certain "competitive" preferences would be a valid idea. No one seems to want to have to do anything past unlock characters, though. Any extra work is obviously not an innate part of the game, and shouldn't be considered for competitive reasons >.>

Suppose that it was somehow universally agreed upon that a character deserves +10 def and +5 speed. Let's pretend that everyone in the world actually agrees on this, and somehow it is psychically communicated to all players of smash present and future that this is the case.

We still can't do it, because you could play single player for a year straight and still not get that exact set of equipment modifications.

Additionally, setting it up on every single station for every match would be obnoxious. Unlike custom moves, which are always the same and in the same location, item sets--even if everyone had them--are going to be in random locations. Actually sitting down and figuring out if a station even has that exact combination of equipment is actually np-hard.

*****

Every smash release, we have people proposing radical rules that can't possibly be adopted because they are insular. This means they can't be used because they actively prevent people who don't know about them from participating.

Suppose you and your friends show up to a tourney, and everyone has Increased Walking Speed equipment, and they are playing on 1.1x knockback. How on earth were you supposed to know about this? Who could have predicted or guessed this? How on earth were you expected to have reasonable practice with these weird house rules?

Such house rules are not like Stock vs. Time or 2-stock vs. 3-stock, since they actually affect gameplay. They are also unlike custom moves, items, or team attack, because they are not discrete; it is just as reasonable for those things to be off as it is on.

"This tourney is 3-stock, 8-minute, with these legal stages, custom moves, and team attack." - all perfectly normal binary options right there in the rules menu.

"This tourney requires everyone have a +16 Atk -28 Def Decreased Landing Lag badge, a +75 Atk -11 Def Weakened Dodge Ability badge, and a +7 Spd -19 Atk No-Flinch Charged Smashes badge." - what? You can't be serious. This reads like a Monty Python skit.

At that point you are no longer playing the base game by any interpretation, you are playing some weird subjective set of house rules.

 

[Raijinken]

Suppose that it was somehow universally agreed upon that a character deserves +10 def and +5 speed. Let's pretend that everyone in the world actually agrees on this, and somehow it is psychically communicated to all players of smash present and future that this is the case.

We still can't do it, because you could play single player for a year straight and still not get that exact set of equipment modifications.

Additionally, setting it up on every single station for every match would be obnoxious. Unlike custom moves, which are always the same and in the same location, item sets--even if everyone had them--are going to be in random locations. Actually sitting down and figuring out if a station even has that exact combination of equipment is actually np-hard.

*****

Every smash release, we have people proposing radical rules that can't possibly be adopted because they are insular. This means they can't be used because they actively prevent people who don't know about them from participating.
Suppose you and your friends show up to a tourney, and everyone has Increased Walking Speed equipment, and they are playing on 1.1x knockback. How on earth were you supposed to know about this? Who could have predicted or guessed this? How on earth were you expected to have reasonable practice with these weird house rules?

Such house rules are not like Stock vs. Time or 2-stock vs. 3-stock, since they actually affect gameplay. They are also unlike custom moves, items, or team attack, because they are not discrete; it is just as reasonable for those things to be off as it is on.

"This tourney is 3-stock, 8-minute, with these legal stages, custom moves, and team attack." - all perfectly normal binary options right there in the rules menu.

"This tourney requires everyone have a +16 Atk -28 Def Decreased Landing Lag badge, a +75 Atk -11 Def Weakened Dodge Ability badge, and a +7 Spd -19 Atk No-Flinch Charged Smashes badge." - what? You can't be serious. This reads like a Monty Python skit.

At that point you are no longer playing the base game by any interpretation, you are playing some weird subjective set of house rules.

Fair points all. Valid reasoning, even if it does just boil down to "We can't possibly spend the time it would take to set all of this up, so we won't bother."

However, would something as simple as "You may have Smooth Lander on, and the stats changed must net less than 10 (or similarly small number) be too divisive for competitive play? Number crunching in other threads says that the changes offered by equipment would be very close to negligible (or at least, small enough that I would personally call it negligible).

 

[Thinkaman]

However, would something as simple as "You may have Smooth Lander on, and the stats changed must net less than 10 (or similarly small number) be too divisive for competitive play? Number crunching in other threads says that the changes offered by equipment would be very close to negligible (or at least, small enough that I would personally call it negligible).

As I said in another thread, I have beat classic and smash run with every character. In both modes, I did strategies and roulette pause exploit to unlock as many customs as possible.

I have most the custom moves, but don't even have one piece of equipment with most effects. Even after all my grind, I don't have a single piece, much less one of the correct slot type, much less one with optimal stat mods.

Also, effect pieces do not change stats less than 10, not even close. It's like no one in this thread has actually played with equipment yet!

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

So that includes if you subtract the stats from each other, the effect won't happen?

 

[Leebee]

As I said in another thread, I have beat classic and smash run with every character. In both modes, I did strategies and roulette pause exploit to unlock as many customs as possible.

I have most the custom moves, but don't even have one piece of equipment with most effects. Even after all my grind, I don't have a single piece, much less one of the correct slot type, much less one with optimal stat mods.

Also, effect pieces do not change stats less than 10, not even close. It's like no one in this thread has actually played with equipment yet!

farming for the right items is ****ty, for sure, but we don't know if there isn't a way to exploit it or duplicate/transfer with the WiiU version.

to reach a value of 10 or less, you equip 2 pieces of equipment with opposing effects. it's like no one in this thread knows addition!

 

[Thinkaman]

to reach a value of 10 or less, you equip 2 pieces of equipment with opposing effects. it's like no one in this thread knows addition!

Right, but now you are demanding people farm a combination of items, which is even worse.

Again, the primary problem is the insularity of it all.

The secondary problem is the unacceptable RNG.

The third problem is the absurd levels of grind.

No part of this is a viable, workable competitive environment.

 

[Saito]

Somehow, I feel like we're dealing with IV's from Pokemon in one way or another.

Pre Gen 6.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I definitely think you could do casuals/off-site friendlies with this stuff and have a blast, but at a serious tournament setting it's probably too much of a stretch.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

You have multiple slots for equipment it's a matter of finding at least one smooth lander and then finding the correct number of combinations that will get yourself in the single digit range especially if your asking for something between 0-5. There have to be a huge number of solutions to gain those results, to get a combination that will work for it.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Guys, from what I've seen of Smooth Lander (I have a piece of equipment with the effect), it doesn't affect landing lag from aerial attacks at all. Or if it does affect it, the difference is so small as to be unnoticeable. I tested on a minimum-size Mii Brawler just trying to get a feel for the landing lag on NAir with or without Smooth Lander, and didn't notice any difference (although Mii Brawler's NAir has weird landing lag anyway, since it doesn't fully auto-cancel but it has more landing lag if you land early in the move than if you land late in the move), and Feint Jump is still just as laggy with Smooth Lander as without it. What Smooth Lander does is completely remove the 3 frames or so of landing lag you get just by touching down from full jump height or greater. I tested this by throwing jabs from a single jump. Didn't see even a frame of the standard landing animation before the jab came out with Smooth Lander active. I'd hazard a guess that it might affect landing from helpless fall as well, but I forgot to check.

As for the idea of using this in competitive play: You wouldn't need just the Smooth Lander equip and another equip to counteract its stat changes, you'd actually need two other pieces of equipment: One to counteract the Smooth Lander equip, and another to counteract that and in turn be counteracted by the Smooth Lander equip.

Edit: Missed that it said "aerial normals" only. Also, I haven't watched the video in the OP yet, so if that video contains proof that I'm wrong, then feel free to disregard this post.

 

[1MachGO]

Independent of stats, changing up the base timing on every aerial in the game to solve an imaginary problem is madness. Note how there is no experienced TO or community pillar advocating this.

Smash 4 has extremely low landing lag on most moves, extremely generous auto-cancel windows, and high shield damage. The idea that we need to make landing aerials better is hard to take seriously. Anyone who proposed this for Melee would be laughed out of the room.

Furthermore, the low shield stun means that long landing lag moves won't be safe on block even with a modest reduction.

Considering how the vid/thread is only a day old... its a little preemptive and pointless to state that no experienced TO is advocating for this given how new this info is.

Furthermore, there are many aerials that would benefit form lag reduction and you are writing this off despite the evidence shown in Papapaint's video. Marth's fair and nair are nearly lagless with SHFFing; these moves are now safer to wall with in neutral and can potentially lead to follow ups. If it has benefits for character viability, it should be investigated the very least.

With that said, it is very likely that smooth lander cannot be implemented (reasonably), but we should have an open mind if we can potentially improve this game (IMO, the prospects of vanilla smash 4 are looking grim).

 

[Gawain]

I don't think this is even necessary to be honest.. The game isn't balanced with this in mind. Plenty of characters are seemingly viable as is. There are plenty of combos.

 

[DunnoBro]

Well I have one theory.

Datel powersaves. Unlock everything, or install a save file with presets to speed things up. The TO would only need to provide one, it can be done at registration, and for local tournaments it will likely become less needed as it's one-time use generally.

This is would also promote wifi warriors to come and get free stuff.

There's already unlock everything codes, but for the EU version only... Weird. Doesn't seem like they'd work for us either.

Edit: They have the US versions of the codes, it's just the weekend according to GBAtemp. Should be up by monday.

 

[zero sum]

to be perfectly honest, it's worth a shot; i wouldn't advocate for this being the default without sufficient testing but having it as a side event for local tournaments wouldn't be a bad idea. one of the things i've seen was that only smooth lander badges with +speed, -defense modifications should be seriously considered for play and that seems reasonable, i suppose. obviously a big problem with it is that the boosts and reductions are sort of random, but—provided i'm not mistaken—it remains to be seen if +5/-5 in defense would really impact the game so significantly? if it doesn't have a marked impact, i see no reason why you can't just say smooth landing is allowed (within ±5 or what have you of the allowed parameters for speed and defense). i mean, i'm in the dark about a lot of things—are certain distributions more likely than others? how significant is a small difference (like +5/-5?) if you're dying 2-3% earlier than someone else in dittos then that sucks but at the same time smooth landing seems like it could be a very useful mechanic considering the appalling lack of shield stun in smash 4 and rejecting it without extensive research seems sort of foolish and i'm very hesitant to go along with that

really wish it were an inherent part of the game, though, instead of just equipment, since there would be no debate about it. some moves still look quite laggy even with it on, e.g. ganondorf's down air. nonetheless it seems interesting, though it could cause a divide in the community as well since customization leaves some opportunity for creating interesting, innovative submetagames (metametagames?) but you will have your purists who won't really want to get janked by bad luck from the RNG

e: not really foolish, just seems like a wasted opportunity for experimentation?

 

[Frozn~]

As someone who's played competitive pokemon since Ruby/Sapphire, I have no qualms with farming for items.

The real catch for me is if the lag reduction is significant enough to give me the faster-paced matches that I put the time in for. As was said before, once you get the item(s), it's over and done with. Also, after the Wii-U version comes out, I don't think there will be as many 3DS-oriented tournaments (though transferring all 51 characters for each and every Wii-U would be a real pain, but hey it might already have it saved on there, right?).

I, too, think that we should test this out on the sides at tournaments, just to see if it's more fun/worth the work put in for.

I agree that Smash4 is a good game as it is, without equipment or customizations, but I also think that it could be better. If a slow pace is what's hurting the longevity of this game, then by all means speed it up, I say.

 

[Maneater]

Just wanted to mirror what others have said and say that this seems very interesting and useful.

I also want to say that I've been grinding for this stuff specifically for 14 hours and still have yet to get any. I do have about 90 pairs of "fashionable boots" though. Hacked saves really do need to come out or someone needs to find a way to make a unified competitive save file. Whether that means someone gaming the RNG to get a perfect +0 equipment set or someone just hacks the smooth lander to work the way we want.

I really do want to try this out, but the drop rate on it seems to be absurdly low. Add to the fact that Smash Run is a nightmare and collecting good pieces can be a real, real pain.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Thats generalizing, and that is a terrible thing to do my friend.

I for one always says that, if you want crazy speed, play Melee, if you want a more defensive style, play brawl. To a degree even today I dont understand the desire people has in turning brawl into Melee (Project M) but I still enjoy the game neverthless.

Point is, here in smash4 we have a "legal" mean to improve the game´s appeal. Its not just because of combos, so stop bashing them. This maybe improves combos games but as people mentioned it before, most of these improved times are too small to dramatically change the way they are played. In other words combos will not become insane. It can however allow for a tid bit more faster gameplay while still keeping all the elements that make smash4 unique from its predecesors.

You cant deny faster games are more appealing, you cant deny combos are more appealing than zoning. Both are very important, but from a spectator point of view, it is more intersting to see how people pummel each other than to how they stare and scare each other. We got to see this from every possible point of view, from every possble variable and not close ourselves to baseless judgement or biased opinions.

So, we need facts. We need information and data. We have absolutely no idea to what degree this equipment might affect the overall meta (wich in turn is still in diapers and will be like this for a while yet) so everything we are doing here is nothing but speculation. And how will we get data?, by actually testing it. By creating models and scenarios and testing how they work out. After that, after we have our info then we can generalize according to stadistics.
You pretty much rounded off everything I was trying to say in a great way. Not everyone likes defensive play, but you need those in fighting games!
The good thing about smash4 is that the meta is barelly taking shape right now. This is the moment were we can start playing with said meta and shape it into many different forms and styles and see wich work and wich dont.

So this is not about making Smash4 more "Meleeish" or "combotastic". Its about finding out how we can make the meta evolve into a much more desired path, making it appealing to both pros, casuals, spectators and anyone who might show interest int this. If this particular items has the qualities to stir such a debate, to provide us with options worth testing and considering in order to make this meta even better, I am all set to try it out. Once we have actual data we can judge if it either makes or break the game.

your comment definitly summed up everything I was trying to say a lot better

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Ignore me, I'm super wrong. Smooth Lander DEFINITELY decreases landing lag on aerial attacks. By a lot. It seems like you can't shield on landing as fast as you can perform offensive actions though, which is interesting, and is also why I was confused because I tend to test endlag by holding shield rather than attempting to jab or whatnot. Stall-then-falls are almost actually viable with Smooth Lander, it's that fast.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Ignore me, I'm super wrong. Smooth Lander DEFINITELY decreases landing lag on aerial attacks. By a lot. It seems like you can't shield on landing as fast as you can perform offensive actions though, which is interesting, and is also why I was confused because I tend to test endlag by holding shield rather than attempting to jab or whatnot. Stall-then-falls are almost actually viable with Smooth Lander, it's that fast.

Interesting. May try this ut if I can get it, which most of the time I don't have time for!

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

Ok, I'll just say this. NO. As many above me have said, it would be a TO's nightmare to set up, plus it's all RNG. And we're allergic to RNG, right? Take Bowser's fsmash. It does 33% charged, with no boosters. With +67 attack including a hyper smash badge giving a 1.3x boost to smashes and increased charge time, he does a whopping 63 damage. Ouch. Uncharged, it still smashes shields in one hit (Against Lv. 5 Jiggly, though...) and deals a nasty 35 damage. Ten extra damage points? Ouchie. Plus it just invites grinding. The -61 defence does no favours.... I had a Mario smash him for that. If anyone wants more info, just ask.

Are you testing a customized character against a customized character, or against a non-customized CPU?

Also, I think leaving out the fact that the hyper smash bonus effect doesn't come into play unless you charge your smash attacks longer than normal, which is what provides the 1.3x effect in the first place, is somewhat disingenuous.