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Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

nannerham

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Yoshi is ridiculous, that creature pretty much has it all: an amazing combo game, an amazing punish game, a fantastic projectile for camping, dair is way too versitile for its own good, kill set ups everywhere, SH uair is an amazing combo starter and can cross up sheilds, 3 frame nair, has the best airial mobility in the game, and a decent run speed. I've been labbing with him and found some crazy stuff. I wanna bring up dair, that move can gimp, rack up 35 percent, pop you up for combos, create shield pressue, and JAB LOCK. It can jab lock you until 186% and you have enough time to recover and pretty much do anything you want fsmash, utilt, uair, you name it. If you dont tech vs yoshi your done for and he has the second hit of bair to put you in that situation. Eggs still can setup into fair and end your stock there, and hes actually decent at edgegaurding. His biggest flaw is he can be gimped, but even then he has double jump armor. I will do a showcase soon, I really want to share what i found with you guys.
 

ZADD

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Yoshi is a beast yes, he feels very strong/safe overall. His recovery can really be taken advantage of though, especially if you're good at ledge trumping. Aim those eggs carefully to cover your recovery.

I'd also like to add that his neutral B off the side is an inescapable kill around ~100%... I always thought you could combo into it, but I've never seen it done. Word of advice, never challenge Yoshi when his back is to the ledge or you will get pooped out and feel like a dumbass.
 
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BlueFury

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yea when I messed around with yoshi I noticed he's definitely a threat (like vanilla 4) but not too much he can still be tamed lol
 

ZADD

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Hey guys quick update. We had the tournament yesterday and it was a blast! No real issues.

20 participants, but I only captured the top 8 since there were quite a few setups. Im really happy with the level of play that came out, people really played SLHG Sm4sh, as opposed to vanilla. Ill probly do more small tournaments like this in the future, and Ill keep you posted.

BTW logistically, it was 5x more frustrating to unlock all characters than it was to set up SLHG. Getting the 3 hammers and equipping them took like 15 minutes on brand new setups, so nobody can tell me an SLHG tournament would be hard to TO.

Ill have top 8 up on my youtube channel once they're done processing. :071:
 
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KeithTheGeek

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Sweet! On average, what did the character choices look like? Throughout the tournament and during the top 8 I guess. Would be interesting to see what characters performed well.
 

ZADD

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There was a lot of diversity I'd say. Top 8 had Olimar, Charizard, Zelda, Ike, DK, and R.O.B.

Pools were hit and miss, rofl 2 Toon Link roll spammers got eliminated early. There was a pretty good Bowser Jr., but he lost right before top 8 sadly. It's funny, pools had quite a few "high-tiers", yet most of them didn't progress. (Luigi, ZSS, Mario, Pikachu)
 
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cerealkiller

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Dec 5, 2014
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Hey guys quick update. We had the tournament yesterday and it was a blast! No real issues.

20 participants, but I only captured the top 8 since there were quite a few setups. Im really happy with the level of play that came out, people really played SLHG Sm4sh, as opposed to vanilla. Ill probly do more small tournaments like this in the future, and Ill keep you posted.

BTW logistically, it was 5x more frustrating to unlock all characters than it was to set up SLHG. Getting the 3 hammers and equipping them took like 15 minutes on brand new setups, so nobody can tell me an SLHG tournament would be hard to TO.

Ill have top 8 up on my youtube channel once they're done processing. :071:
Hype!
Be sure to post that as soon as you have it :) Can' wait to watch those matches.
 

KeithTheGeek

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There was a lot of diversity I'd say. Top 8 had Olimar, Charizard, Zelda, Ike, DK, and R.O.B.

Pools were hit and miss, rofl 2 Toon Link roll spammers got eliminated early. There was a pretty good Bowser Jr., but he lost right before top 8 sadly. It's funny, pools had quite a few "high-tiers", yet most of them didn't progress. (Luigi, ZSS, Mario)
Not too surprised about ZSS and Mario honestly. They don't receive that much of a benefit from the heavy gravity or smooth lander since they both were already relatively safe when using SHFF aerials, and in ZSS's case I think it actually makes her BnBs harder to use. Mario just has his usual problem of having to fish for kill moves, where as most other characters gain reliable kill set ups.

Luigi, though, he's a monster in heavy gravity. His already good combos still function well in SLHG, and arguably function even better than they do in vanilla, and he has reliable kill set-ups to work with as well. Since he's less floaty under heavy gravity he also feels easier to just pick up and play compared to vanilla.

The characters that did well aren't too surprising when I think about it...ROB and Ike are just solid characters by design, and Zelda is one of those characters whose key flaws were addressed by smooth lander and heavy gravity. Probably the most interesting character there is Olimar, I'd love to see how he was being played.
 

ZADD

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Heh, even though Zelda/Charizard made it to the top 8, I don't think that player was very optimized against a solid opponent, he kinda got whopped. Still, there were some good moments all around.

The real killers were DK, R.O.B., Yoshi, and Olimar imo.
 

SirMouse

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Anyone ever play several hours of SLHG and then switch to vanilla for a match?

Did that last night and it legitimately felt like we were on the moon. I honestly wasn't expecting such a jarring transition.

In other news, using Zelda in this mode depresses me greatly, as I main her and she's just so, so much better in this mode.
Seriously, dtilt (and even utilt!) seemingly true comboing into lightning kick? Jab locks? Crisper movement in general? I was handily beating my friend's Falcon, guys. A Falcon. With Zelda.
(Still annoyed with Robin's nerfed recovery, though - it severely limits her offstage game in this mode.)

Also, the Dedede vs Ganon matchup is filthy in this mode. And I mean FILTHY. You can chain down throw into fair/nair on Ganon a silly amount of times. It's like I'm playing as Ice Climbers...well, if Popo gained a few hundred pounds and ate Nana.
 
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nannerham

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Heres that showcase i promised, baiscly i go over what i said in my previous post, a few things I didnt mention in my other post is yoshi's best kill confirm is utilt into uair, its deadly, quick and easy to do. A set up that can be used for it is a late nair into a sliding pivot utilt if they tech its easy to react to and you can tech chase immediately.

The other thing i wanted to mention is that I believe the best way to use yoshi is to use him defensively, of course his punish game is nasty and I think one of the best at it, its his combo game that's a little lackluster, by that i mean he doesn't really have too many true combos. What makes him so dangerous is that he can do a TON of damage and kill super early while having godly frame data, that's something you see out of glass cannons but yoshi has some weight behind him so hes not exactly easy to kill. Eggs are there to annoy and they do a fantastic job at it, you make a mistake you eat at least 40-50%. There were some other things i wanted to show off but suprise suprise, the training bot didnt want too cooperate.
 

Muro

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Major props to ZADD ZADD for putting in work. Hopefully this is just the beginning.

Could you give a bit more info on the tournament? Did you TO alone? Did you rent the venue yourself or did you hold it alongside other tournament? Where was it, etc. Thanks again man.
 

ZADD

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My University has public rooms you can rent, so I brought as many TV's and setups as I could. I invited my friends and a few guys from my scene that were interested. Overall It was a casual but interesting tournament, as the final gameplay was pretty serious.

I TO'd alone with a bit of help, we had 4 setups specifically for SLHG. Ill try to get a picture if I can get it from my friend. My mic stopped working the day before so I wasn't able to commentate sadly, I'll definitely do it next time though.

Also, the vids are on my computer but I have a lot of work to do school-wise. I might have to upload them tomorrow morning.
 

BlueFury

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Grats Zadd I'm interested in how was the set up and the tournament transitioning? Was it smooth or did it slow down in pace from time to time? I'm pretty sure if there were issues you already thought of how to make it better. Looking forward to the footage, peace.

Muro Muro I hope this is the push we needed
 

SaturnFrost

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Just watched Zadd's SLHG tournament top 8. Really Good stuff. A Few sd's but thats to be expected for such a young scene.
 
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blargh257

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I watched a bit of the SLHG tourney grands.
That was awkward. No one could combo anything and the Yoshi living to 250 made me mad. Still nice to have actual tourney footage though.
 

nannerham

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Welp we just got hit with a gigantic fan service bomb, did not see the new character coming, I'm not even sure how good they'll be in slhg seeing how everything in the trailer exploded.
 
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ZADD

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I watched a bit of the SLHG tourney grands.
That was awkward. No one could combo anything and the Yoshi living to 250 made me mad. Still nice to have actual tourney footage though.
Rofl yea, a lot of things came together to make Yoshi live that long.

Paris spammed N-air so many times it got stale, Yoshi was vectoring everything, and Town and City has big blastzones. Meh.

Like I said, this tournament was to draw local attention. I knew no one in the tournament was on my level yet. Most are new or inexperienced with SLHG, but I think they'll be more focused with actual tournaments happening.

Wait... what? Where's the footage? ZADD ZADD have you posted that already?
 
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SaturnFrost

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Yea For it to be the 1st tourney of its kind and for players to still be new to the mechanics of play...it was quite enjoyable. I think the more they play the more they will realize how important air to ground play is,using air attacks more often to approach.

Made a Playlist of the tourney if Zadd doesn't mind
Zadd's 1st SLHG Tourney

Anyways, Its so sad that we haven't gotten our online play back.
 
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cerealkiller

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Anyways, Its so sad that we haven't gotten our online play back.
I was going to reply "it's never gonna happen". Instead I'm going to ask you (guys) what would actually be the chances of us enthusiasts to collect "signatures" and send our intentions to Nintendo and it actually have an effect? Any chance at all? Should we bother?

Most of all, why would Nintendo not want to include special smash modes online?
 

SaturnFrost

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I was going to reply "it's never gonna happen". Instead I'm going to ask you (guys) what would actually be the chances of us enthusiasts to collect "signatures" and send our intentions to Nintendo and it actually have an effect? Any chance at all? Should we bother?

Most of all, why would Nintendo not want to include special smash modes online?
Im not against petitions...You just need a large amount of signatures to get it noticed.

If enough people want it it shouldn't be hard to do. Heavy gravity was quite possible online until Samurai patched it out.
 

SAHunterMech

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Just popping in to say, I'm back! It's been a long time, about a year, but my efforts to get a feel similar to SLHG with equipment are that much closer.

I've ended up with a build that is -30Atk, 0 Def, and 130Spd with Anti-Leap, Anti-Glide, and Smooth Lander. For those of you who may not know, increasing the speed stat actually increases character gravity, so at 130, there is a distinct heaviness.

My goals were to try and alleviate some of the issues with SLHG (Jumps being extremely low, Gravity potentially being a little too high, the Sonic/MM/DHD Recovery debacle, etc.) since I enjoyed the experience a lot when I first gave it a whirl.

Anyway, I'm uploading my 3Ds save for those who want to try it out. You can transfer to Wii U no problem; I've done it myself. I used this save editor.

I guess I'll close with the fact that SLHG really inspired me to delve into equipment and modes, looking for the ultimate Smash 4 experience, using all of what the game has to offer, and I'm interested in hearing feedback for what I've ended up with.
 

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Aunt Jemima

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Are you the same guy on gbatemp that's working on getting legalized hacked equipment?

Anyways, good work! Gonna be trying this out soon. Hopefully non-updated 3DS version can communicate with Wii U.
 

SAHunterMech

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Indeed I am. It wasn't easy, but I got my hacked stuff onto my Wii U; Had to trial and error that damn anti-cheat byte.
 

ArtfulHobbes

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I'm really excited for Cloud. Not only for what he can do in Vanilla with the possibility of him being the best swordsman, but I also want to see how well he does in SLHG.
 

Hyper_Kirby

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Cloud is about to go melee mario in the neutral, as long as he has that fair spike
Edit- I was reading the comments that I forgot to include this- I found an SLHG combo with Kirbu. It was 1.0.6 but his uptil and dair has not been changed. Uptilt, footstool, dair, repeat. Follow the DI and end it with Uptilt, Footstool, down b.
 
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Muro

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The point is, dude went out and actually held a tournament. It might go on to be a popular series or it might die out, but without trying you never know. Also it's good to know the logistics aren't that hard on the TO.

Good gameplay will come with a bigger talent pool, but we gotta start somewhere.
 

BlueFury

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Give it time we all know SLHG will have a presence in the scene my boys and girls it's only a matter of waiting it out it is inevitable.
SLHG is just too sick my dude!
 

SirMouse

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Decided I'd share some thoughts on my mains in this mode after ~15 hours of total playtime. If there's anything anyone would like to add or make counterpoints to, feel free!

:4dedede: I find his main strengths and weaknesses to be amplified twofold in this mode. He can be combo'd to death even more easily, but arguably has broken matchups against heavies, particularly Ganon (for those wondering, see my post above). Overall, I really like him in both modes, but would give the edge to SLHG Dedede due to stronger combo potential - which, for anyone who mains or plays a lot against Dedede, is a very scary thing.

:4myfriends: Like his Vanilla counterpart, he is very, very good in this mode. He definitely has some neat stuff in SLHG, like auto-canceled nair into strong hit utilt, and uair seems to land in many more instances, but he also has the issue many other characters have in this mode in that he struggles more offstage - both offensively and defensively (uairing from the ledge, for example, will kill you). Some Ike mains may not mind it as much, but because it's more of a struggle than I'm comfortable with, I prefer Vanilla Ike overall. SLHG Ike definitely has a stronger neutral/onstage game, though, and he's still a ton of fun.

:4marth: One of my two mains whom I feel is objectively better in this mode; he loses a few tricks from Vanilla, but in place of them gains several more reliable, stronger, and overall better options. His only real downsides are a slightly worse recovery and having to be a bit more cautious offstage because of that (you can't whiff a below-stage counter or you'll SD). Other than that, though, he feels so, so much better in this mode, and is one of my favorites to combo with, as he has an actual juggle game here.

:4zelda: Like Marth, she seems objectively better in this mode. Jab locks, tilt into fair/bair true combos, excellent short hops, improved fast fall, and all-around crisper movement make for a Zelda you can play much more offensively with while still being able to go on the defensive if need-be. Her only real loss is that up-B no longer reliably combos into itself (as far as I know), but I'd rarely used it as a KO move to begin with, and in place of it she has much better, safer options.

:4zss: I'm not sure what it is, but something feels very off about her in this mode. Her combos feel more difficult to pull off, and her vertically is nerfed, both recovery and attack-wise. This results in a significantly less aggressive ZSS for me personally, and, as an aggressive player, makes me prefer her in Vanilla.

:4robinf: I don't want to talk about her. I've tried to use her. Every freaking time, I've tried. And every freaking time, the experience further cements my thoughts that she is awful in this mode. Yes, she's OK on-stage, and her rapid jab is even better in this mode, but almost everything good about her is ruined because her recovery is god awful. It may not look THAT bad for those watching, but Robin mains likely understand just how much it ruins her offstage game. Try to guard your recovery with arcfire? You SD. Try to dair someone offstage? You SD. Try to go moderately deep with any of her moves? You SD. Try to go even a smidge below the stage with any of her aerials? You SD. It's just so frustrating because nearly all of her offensive and defensive offstage tools are made useless in this mode, and the ones that can still work require perfect timing to have a chance at recovering from. Oh, and her uair isn't as strong, which makes it a significantly less reliable KO move.

:4metaknight: While he definitely has more combos in this mode, I actually prefer him in Vanilla because you can be a lot more aggressive with him offstage. In fact, you can do things in Vanilla that are impossible to do without SDing in SLHG, such as drop-down fast-fall bair (you hit the blast zone before bair's endlag is finished in SLHG). His most powerful combo, uair into up-B, also takes longer to KO with. Overall, I don't think what he gains is worth what he loses, but he's still a lot of fun to use.

All-in-all, it's definitely a more fun mode to me than vanilla, though vanilla will continue to have a place for me due to the fact that I still prefer half my mains in it.
Sadly don't think it'll ever catch on competitively on a large scale due to two arguably minor problems that'll be blown way out of proportion if the mode ever tries to gain real traction: 1) The time and effort it'll take to "relearn" the game, and 2) the fact that a few characters lost a lot of viability in this mode due to wonky recovery, which would likely cause quite a few mains of them to resent this mode.

There's also the "problem" of having to set up, though we've already been given confirmation that's a non-issue.

Still, I'm interested to see what becomes of this mode (if anything) in the future, and I certainly wouldn't mind being proven wrong in my prediction.
 

KeithTheGeek

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Dedede is WAY better in SLHG because he can more safely land with aerials, and his combo game continues past mid-percents. Not to mention edge-guarding is stronger because recoveries are nerfed across the board. He still has some notable flaws that will hold him back against the more mobile characters (i.e. ZSS or Sonic) but I think he's actually viable in SLHG, which is a big boost from vanilla.

Basically he can more safely pressure and kill you sooner for making mistakes. His fast fall speed is also insane, he feels like a more vertically-oriented counterpart to PM Dedede.
 

SirMouse

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Dedede is WAY better in SLHG because he can more safely land with aerials, and his combo game continues past mid-percents. Not to mention edge-guarding is stronger because recoveries are nerfed across the board. He still has some notable flaws that will hold him back against the more mobile characters (i.e. ZSS or Sonic) but I think he's actually viable in SLHG, which is a big boost from vanilla.

Basically he can more safely pressure and kill you sooner for making mistakes. His fast fall speed is also insane, he feels like a more vertically-oriented counterpart to PM Dedede.
Oh, I forgot to mention his fast fall speed! It's definitely amazing.

The fact that you can fast fall nair around halfway toward the top of the screen and still have it hit opponents on stage due to its hitbox frames lasting so long is insane, especially when you realize you can immediately combo out of it.
 

cerealkiller

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:4marth: One of my two mains whom I feel is objectively better in this mode; he loses a few tricks from Vanilla, but in place of them gains several more reliable, stronger, and overall better options. His only real downsides are a slightly worse recovery and having to be a bit more cautious offstage because of that (you can't whiff a below-stage counter or you'll SD). Other than that, though, he feels so, so much better in this mode, and is one of my favorites to combo with, as he has an actual juggle game here.
I just think his recovery is a bit worse than "just slightly". But then again most characters are like this (except the likes of Pikachu).
But in vannilla he feels like a ballon which let's you get below the ledge from far, while here if you're struck with a bit more horizontal KB thank usual it's game over.
 

Hyper_Kirby

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I don't find Robin bad. But that's because I main her, so I know how to play her well. She has a footstool combo at zero that works the same in Vanilla. She cab full hop arc fire and still have the wall come out. Her biggest problem is her recovery, but she has an increased combo game
 

BlueFury

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I don't find Robin bad. But that's because I main her, so I know how to play her well. She has a footstool combo at zero that works the same in Vanilla. She cab full hop arc fire and still have the wall come out. Her biggest problem is her recovery, but she has an increased combo game
I agree I read his post but I didn't want to say anything since I don't main her/him but I wanted help out as best I could from what I noticed arc fire combos in itself easier than in vanilla and her speed as in getting attacks out in succession increase quite a bit. Honestly that there was the reason I didn't want to pick her up in the vanilla ver. she just felt too slow for me. But as you both stated it's mostly that recovery but everything else including offstage is fine. You have to save her second jump and be weary of the distance (like most of the cast) and manage when to go off stage for a spike since you'll probably have to up-b after that second jump.

as for ZSS

She is a little different then the vanilla version but most of her set ups still work, for recovery her up b is nerfed but she still has her other tools like down-b and side b/z-air to grab the ledge if need be. And her down throw to up-b set still works if you read their DI and adjust properly.

SirMouse SirMouse I can relate with you because I felt the same when I started playing this, just give it time and adjust to it then you'll start to notice things like that the gravity isn't as heavy as it appeared at first glance.

Keep playing, keep learning because believe it our not everybody here is still finding new stuff in this mode so keep at it :b:
 
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