Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[Gawain]

If we had the chance to replace Item Hitter, there's not much argument that Shield Degenerator is the one we need. Having another Smooth Lander badge would expand the gap between characters even more. Characters that have low landing lag are now unpunishable whereas everybody else sucks? Having Shield Degenerator would make it so you can't constantly shield every attack heavier characters hit it with (they have pretty decent shield damage), which would probably help them out a bit. Along with that, it's just stupid to have a shield almost broken, run away for three seconds and then it's back.

tfw you hit a shield with Shield Breaker but they throw you during the endlag and the shield is back

I think that the one change that would help this game most would actually be increasing shield stun across the board. It's just too low to do any kind of legit pressure.

 

[ZADD]

the move further differs him from C Falcon and it gives him a fighting chance of returning to the stage.

After second thought, I suppose the same argument for DHD could be used for Ganondorf in a Horizontal sense. Ganondorf arguably gets hits just as hard as DHD because his aerial mobility might be the worst, and he falls faster than he can jump.

Im still yes for Tornado Hold and Duck High Jump, on the fence for Wizard Drop Kick

 

[SaturnFrost]

After second thought, I suppose the same argument for DHD could be used for Ganondorf in a Horizontal sense. Ganondorf arguably gets hits just as hard as DHD because his aerial mobility might be the worst, he falls faster than he can jump!

yea,This is pretty much what i was trying to say. Out of all the heavies...he tends to die the earliest in slhg due to his (default) recovery game. While Heavies like Bowser, Dk, DDD, Charizard, ect are living well into the 100's(because they have ways of moving horizontally)... Ganon usually dies after one successful combo.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Sorry but ESAM's argument doesn't do much for me at all, SLHG is already a special case altogether so arguing against special cases is just trivial.

The effects of Heavy Gravity may be awesome, but we need to acknowledge that they are UNINTENTIONAL. Some characters are UNFAIRLY hit by HG, and custom supplementation is kinda necessary if we want people to take this game mode seriously. Sm4sh Vanilla was balanced around its base engine, so it makes sense that ESAM is discouraging individual character-to-character tweaks within that context. Sm4sh was not balanced for SLHG however (Sonic is perfect evidence), so it's much more logical to approach it with some flexibility, especially since better options are readily available, can be standardized, and can make a huge difference.

We choose to change DHD and Mega Mans recovery out of respect for those characters, and for players who deserve a well-rounded character within SLHG. If DHD and Mega Man dealt with this same problem in Vanilla (nonexistent recoveries), I guarantee the entirety of the community would be much more angry about that than they are about all of customs.

Unlike ESAM's argument, we actually have a reason for customs... Correcting a Massive Imbalance due to Heavy Gravity

Ganon's Wizard Kick - Unnecessary, but undoubtedly useful (I don't think it should be legal due to subjectivity)
DHD Recovery - Basically the difference between him being a normal character or not, DHD deserves a real recovery
Mega Man - Prevents stalling and can't be abused, standardizing Tornado Hold is absolutely necessary (and easy)

It's totally fair to say These two customs are legal, no exceptions. We have a damn good reason for those customs, they are solutions to objective issues. Mega Man shouldn't be able to stall, and DHD shouldn't have a worse recovery than Little Mac...

I'm not really sure why you're quoting me in this post, lol. You do know I was being sarcastic, right?

also what's with all this colored text my eyes are burning

I've killed Hobbes at 20% by hitting him off-stage as Peach when he wasn't allowed to use Dropkick.

 

[ZADD]

I'm not really sure why you're quoting me in this post, lol. You do know I was being sarcastic, right?

also what's with all this colored text my eyes are burning

Sarcasm? I didn't, next time put /s or Kappa, sarcasm isn't textual. And colors?.. I'll make it Pink next time. Kappa
I was just making a point, since customs are obviously still a touchy subject. I do think Wizard Kick is necessary for Ganondorf after testing. 2 customs are not hard to farm for at all.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Ganondorf's customs are actually pretty easy to farm for. In target blast stage 2, you can hit all but 2 of the targets just by hitting the b button at the start of both rounds. It's just a matter of either resetting till you see a green wrench appear in a favorable spot (which is most of them) or using the turbo controller method, if you have access to one.

In general, the game tends to give drops for the character you're currently using. It's still random whether or not you get that character's customs, and you still run the issue of finding duplicates, but it's not a problem farming for one or two characters. I think a while back I was able to find all of Olimar's within a half hour period. Though thanks to RNG, your mileage may vary.

If it's starting to be close to universally agreed upon that he needs Wizard's Dropkick, I'll gladly add it to my build. I love that move anyways.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Ganondorf's customs are actually pretty easy to farm for. In target blast stage 2, you can hit all but 2 of the targets just by hitting the b button at the start of both rounds. It's just a matter of either resetting till you see a green wrench appear in a favorable spot (which is most of them) or using the turbo controller method, if you have access to one.

In general, the game tends to give drops for the character you're currently using. It's still random whether or not you get that character's customs, and you still run the issue of finding duplicates, but it's not a problem farming for one or two characters. I think a while back I was able to find all of Olimar's within a half hour period. Though thanks to RNG, your mileage may vary.

If it's starting to be close to universally agreed upon that he needs Wizard's Dropkick, I'll gladly add it to my build. I love that move anyways.

I unlocked Wizard drop kick after 3 attempts of Trophy rush playing as Ganon. I used custom Smooth lander Ganon to get the most out of the runs.
This should be added to the Op If we as a community are adding it to ganons moveset. As well as any of the other recovery options that are changed(ie DHD,MM recoveries)

 

[VeggieSteel]

Mega Man - Prevents stalling and can't be abused, standardizing Tornado Hold is absolutely necessary (and easy)

Or, you know, we could also allow Beat, since we're no longer sticking with the challenge wall only dealie.

Anyway, on to stages. Naturally, I favor a big stage list, and wish we saw more of the less common stages in vanilla.
I definitely would like to try Skyloft, Delfino, and PS2. I suspect that castle siege and mario circuit are fine as well. Orbital Gate Assault is ugly and I hate it, but it's probably fair enough to include.

Here in SLHG, I do think that some of the stages with very high platforms (DHD) are too hard for some characters to deal with. I also feel like faster characters could circle camp on Kongo Jungle due to reduced jump height and the nature of the platforms. Anybody know for sure?

 

[Muro]

Alright, guys, customs are off. Mega Man and Duck Hunt keep their default recoveries. Mega Man can infinite stall. It's scrubby, but who cares it's Mega Man.

Oh come on, you know that's a false equivalence. You'd have a point if we were changing megaman's customs because he sucks, but it's actually the opposite, his custom is getting banned because it's too good. If there was no customs, his up-b would still get banned but we'd do it through a specific rule. Because of a coincidence (his custom up B is actually really easy to get), we're using a custom, but the point is, the reason for his change is not "oh poor megaman can't recover, let's give him a custom move". Once you go there for one character, you can make a case for pretty much any character.

It's either all or nothing, but even if it's all, broken stuff gets banned.

You know what..I'll agree on Kong cyclone being legal to keep peace if it means Ganon gets the down B Buff. Like I mentioned before the move further differs him from C Falcon and it gives him a fighting chance of returning to the stage. (Back throw nullifies the move as a recovery option so it does have a downside)

Missing the point entirely. I'm not actually in favor of allowing DK, I only said it to make a point (since his customs are universally agreed to be bad for the game). That point is: I can make a case for DK getting his wind custom up b, so long as we say it's ok to use customs to balance the game. This discussion is not even specific to SLHG and is being had by the community at large.

As for keeping the peace, I don't take offence at anybody for arguing with me, that's why I come here lol.

edit: what about adding a custom stage mimicking duck hunt's proportions (really close side blastzones)? That way you make a change which is applied equally to every character but benefits more characters with bad recovery. I feel like this is a better way to go about it.

 

[ZADD]

It's either all or nothing, but even if it's all, broken stuff gets banned.
That point is: I can make a case for DK getting his wind custom up b, so long as we say it's ok to use customs to balance the game.

I think the 3 customs are a different case. We're not applying them for balancing purposes per se, but instead using them to repair situations that are actually crippled/broken by Heavy Gravity. Vanilla doesn't share our problems, so naturally they shouldn't share our solution.

If we ever want the masses to get over the whole "SLHG ruins recoveries" argument, we absolutely need to address DHD, Mega Man, and Ganon. (I'd fix Sonic too, but you know)

- No Up-B should have zero vertical rise, even Yoshi's Up-b gives a little... DHD's default Up-B is a problem.
- Ganon doesn't deserve a joke of a recovery, he deserves the potential to survive past 30% as a heavy...
_________________

-Recovery is fine, both vertically and horizontally. Giving Kong cyclone does not address any issue, it's just a buff for no reason

 

[SaturnFrost]

edit: what about adding a custom stage mimicking duck hunt's proportions (really close side blastzones)? That way you make a change which is applied equally to every character but benefits more characters with bad recovery. I feel like this is a better way to go about it.

Im fine with testing custom stages. Is there a way to search for specific stages in the share option?

 

[Muro]

I think the 3 customs are a different case. We're not applying them for balancing purposes per se, but instead using them to repair situations that are actually crippled/broken by Heavy Gravity. Vanilla doesn't share our problems, so naturally they shouldn't share our solution.

I disagree with this, I don't think they are problems. There was one metagame, now there is another. Also, if it's not for the sake of balance, then what is it for?

If we ever want the masses to get over the whole "SLHG ruins recoveries" argument, we absolutely need to address DHD, Mega Man, and Ganon. (I'd fix Sonic too, but you know)

But ganon's recovery wasn't as affected as those others, he just had a horrible recovery to begin with, and that gets exposed even more in HG. I agree that it may appease the masses, I'm speaking strictly from a metagame point of view.

- No Up-B should have zero vertical rise, even Yoshi's Up-b gives a little... DHD's default Up-B is a problem.

no character deserves their traits, they were just designed that way, there is no fairness involved.

- Ganon doesn't deserve a joke of a recovery, he deserves the potential to survive past 30% as a heavy...

And he can... unless he gets caught out of his double jump or whatever, but that's what you sign up for when you decide to play a low tier.

-Recovery is fine, both vertically and horizontally. Giving Kong cyclone does not address any issue, it's just a buff for no reason

Now I'm going to play devil's advocate and make a reasonable sounding argument for why he should get his wind custom. I am not actually pushing for it, I'm just illustrating how you COULD make this argument, if you already concede that certain characters get a pass:

"DK has a big frame and is heavy, he gets comboed harder anybody in heavy gravity. This is a direct consequence of the changes made by SLHG. DK doesn't deserve to take 70% from a single combo, he deserves to have at least one combo breaker. His up-b actually lets him be competitive with characters like shiek and pikachu."

Ok last thing I'll say. If ganon is better now, who's he better than? Do those characters who are now worse than ganon get customs too? Food for thought.

Im fine with testing custom stages. Is there a way to search for specific stages in the share option?

I haven't actually looked into it (I have so little time these days). But speaking broadly I think we could recreate more or less the layout of DH. Single platform, close side blastzones, high ceiling, no platforms. Then another version with maybe 2 or 3 platforms. There we have 2 good legal stages for characters with poor recoveries, no custom moves needed. I'm just speaking broadly here, I haven't given it too much thought, but it seems like a good place to start.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Yeah Sonic's recovery fix with customs is very debatable. The best method for him to recover is jumping out of hammer spin dash, but problems arise.

Hammer spin dash is so good on it's own. Burying opponents, a jumping mixup, better recovery, all for Sonic who still has an amazing onstage game. But we did say we would try and fix all the broken recoveries, which Sonic's Up-B definitely is.
Even then, it doesn't give the best recovery and his air speed is still good.

But I mean who knows.

Also I vote for Charizard's Dragon Rush to also be considered. Charizard still has a lot of ending lag and struggles to get in. That and Flare Blitz is awful because all you have to do to edgeguard Flare blitz is run out and get hit and Zard will fall to his death. This way he gets a better approach and recovery and says goodbye to a move that Sakurai still insists is OP.
I also want Bowser's Clawdash to give him a better approach but people don't know how to fight it yet. (You shield and grab)

 

[ZADD]

"DK has a big frame and is heavy, he gets comboed harder anybody in heavy gravity. This is a direct consequence of the changes made by SLHG. DK doesn't deserve to take 70% from a single combo, he deserves to have at least one combo breaker. His up-b actually lets him be competitive with characters like shiek and pikachu."

I disagree with this, I don't think they are problems. There was one metagame, now there is another. Also, if it's not for the sake of balance, then what is it for?

But DK does have combo breakers... his N-air is one of the best combo breakers in SLHG. Being combo'd too hard is not a problem at all, if that's your problem why are you even playing SLHG or DK?? Donkey Kong can combo, he can recover, and he can pressure. No issues present.

DHD can pressure and combo, but not recover and that is an issue.

On a semi-related note, I'm working on a video with my friend's help to test every character's recovery in SLHG. With @ Muro 's suggestion I had Captain Falcon D-tilt every character off the side at 100%: once with no DI, once with just DI, and once with DI + Vectoring. The results were actually very shocking. To my surprise every single character can survive with proper DI. (Even DHD with his default Up-B!). Ganon can actually make a huge difference to his trajectory, and with this I've pretty much concluded his Wizard Kick is a placebo, (Ganon has a better recovery than Luigi in fact).

I can't say the same for DHD however, as anything that puts him below the ledge (even at 0%) will still kill him, he needs a custom.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

With Luigi's recovery, did you take into account the excessive amount of mashing needed to get Tornado to rise?

For Charizard's Flare Blitz recovery issue, I think that may just be the nature of the beast. You can handle Ness's recovery in a similar way, as well as Luigi if he's attempting to recover with side special.

I definitely wouldn't be opposed to adding customs if we could agree on which ones to add, but I still sorta feel like that we should still go with the current "standard" (if you can call it that) of only making an exception for Mega Man's recovery. Mostly for simplicity's sake. But I guess I'm still in favor of Wizard's Dropkick happening if we do agree on it.

 

[ZADD]

With Luigi's recovery, did you take into account the excessive amount of mashing needed to get Tornado to rise?

I realized that after I captured everything, he's still worse than Ganon if you Side-B > Up-B tho.

I actually think Wizard Drop Kick is a bit OP offensively. I know he can shield, I'm referring to off-stage. (2nd and 3rd kills)

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I hadn't actually considered how SLHG might affect the offensive prowess of Wizard's Dropkick. Make no mistake, it's definitely already powerful in vanilla, but I wouldn't consider it OP in that meta.

My only concern is that Falcon's recovery is traditionally prone to being gimped anyways. Maybe if this was done to a character with a stronger recovery I'd be more inclined to agree.

In the case of that third stock, for example, you knocked Falcon away from the stage after he used his second jump. If he hadn't jumped, or predicted your uair there, he could have recovered from a lower angle than he did. Still not a good position to be in of course, but if you understand the mechanics of Wizard's Dropkick you should be able to recover around it in most cases.

While I wouldn't mind seeing it used I don't think it's entirely necessary for Ganon to have it however. I think we'd be good with defaults across the board unless something particularly egregious came up (i.e. Mega Man's Rush Coil stall).

 

[ZADD]

I know it didn't involve a F-air, but I got my first ever Sacred combo in SLHG!

Heres a gif: http://gfycat.com/UglyGiddyAmericanlobster
The whole string was a 0-Death, but it wasn't all in one combo.

Edited: I didn't want to double post, but here's that recovery video I was talking about. No big shocker, the worst recoveries are...

 

[SaturnFrost]

I realized that after I captured everything, he's still worse than Ganon if you Side-B > Up-B tho.

I actually think Wizard Drop Kick is a bit OP offensively. I know he can shield, I'm referring to off-stage. (2nd and 3rd kills)

The way you used the drop kick looked fine to me. Your timing was good on that 2nd kill (if it was off you would've plummeted).Comboing Drop kick into up B looked really sweet. Off stage gimping recovering characters doesn't seem op at all.(especially a falcon that blows his 2nd jump and doesn't shield much).

Edit:Just watched your other video when you were Falcon...That ganon player using Drop kick got got bopped...He tried trowing it raw in the beginning, but when he realized you weren't falling for it he stopped.
On his first and second stocks he should've used Down B> Up B to recover in the same fashion as the spacies use Side B > Up B recover

 

[Aunt Jemima]

It should be noted that just because Muro owns this thread doesn't mean he decides the ruleset. If he doesn't want Dropkick but everybody else finds it fine, there's no reason to not use it.

 

[DNeon]

I know it didn't involve a F-air, but I got my first ever Sacred combo in SLHG!

Heres a gif: http://gfycat.com/UglyGiddyAmericanlobster
The whole string was a 0-Death, but it wasn't all in one combo.

Edited: I didn't want to double post, but here's that recovery video I was talking about. No big shocker, the worst recoveries are...

You used hammer dash for Sonic right? You should probably put 'alt recovery' in the bottom corner like you did with DHD. Also I'd argue Marth/Lucina should be added to that list if you're including DHD and such who barely managed to get back to the ledge with DI since they were floating in helpless state for a while before snapping to the ledge. Also Ganon barely made it there with the DI and is super gimpable...sure he made it but that'd never happen in a match.

 

[ZADD]

Edit:Just watched your other video when you were Falcon...That ganon player using Drop kick got got bopped...He tried trowing it raw in the beginning, but when he realized you weren't falling for it he stopped.

Don't let the skill gap fool you, Frank is pretty bad with Ganon. He kept trying to use the move in neutral, which is terrible. If you notice, when I use it It's for pressure and edge-guarding, very different and much more abusive/successful.
Also, @ DNeon no, that's Sonic's regular Side-B jump cancel.

Also Ganon barely made it there with the DI and is super gimpable...sure he made it but that'd never happen in a match.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that based on the results, Ganon doesn't need a supplemented recovery. There are other characters that suffer in the same regard (Horizontal) but are actually worse than Ganon! (Link, Diddy, Lucina, Ike etc.)

Why does Ganon get a custom when his normal recovery is actually really average in perspective? You could easily compare Wizard Kick to Dash Claw in terms of offense, both moves drastically change the way the character plays by a hell of a lot, and that't subjective/wrong. I'm not saying Wizard Kick doesn't help, but if we give Ganon Wizard's Kick we are definitely playing favorites. Super Duck Jump hardly changes DHD at all, only the way he gets back on stage. The windbox is very hard to land offensively, epecially off-stage.

@ Muro has a seriously good point about subjectivity, and after messing with Wizard Kick's offensive pressure im in 100% agreement with him. It gives Ganondorf options that he wouldn't normally have (Like having a mid-screen off-stage kill move, and being able to recover from the blast zone, not very Ganondorfy imo)
Of course it'd be up to TO's, but if I were a TO I'd only allow Tornado Hold and Super Duck Jump.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Just a couple of comments on recovery video.

You didn't seem to take into account alternative recovery methods (tethers, wall-jumps, etc.). Bowser Jr.'s side b gives him a third mid-air jump when used after his double jump, for example.

For Diddy, I'm pretty sure (though I can be wrong), that you can wall-cling after using side b. I think the move might have longer cool down when you throw out the kick rather than just doing the command grab version. If you had clung to the wall there, you could have easily returned to the ledge.

On Fox, did you test what would have happened if you went straight up during Fire Fox with no DI? The ledge snap range is fairly large in this game and I'm almost positive he would've cleared more distance than he did riding along the wall.

Shulk didn't use jump monado at all. I believe it's his first monado art, so even with no DI he should've been able to recover.

Finally, none of these use vectoring alone. Correct me if I'm long, but doesn't vectoring have a noted difference between vectoring completely into the stage and vectoring slightly upwards? I think characters actually live longer when holding into the stage versus holding up, though at least I can see how you'd still want to DI so that you recover higher. But for some characters with strong recovers, like Villager or Olimar, this is probably something to consider for higher percentages.

This is still a useful video to have around, but it's not going to be indicative of actual recovery ability for many of these characters.

 

[ZADD]

For Diddy, I'm pretty sure (though I can be wrong), that you can wall-cling after using side b.

On Fox, did you test what would have happened if you went straight up during Fire Fox with no DI? The ledge snap range is fairly large in this game and I'm almost positive he would've cleared more distance than he did riding along the wall.

Correct me if I'm long, but doesn't vectoring have a noted difference between vectoring completely into the stage and vectoring slightly upwards?
This is still a useful video to have around, but it's not going to be indicative of actual recovery ability for many of these characters.

Diddy can wall cling, but you need to be frame perfect after Side-B and I'm not a Diddy main.

Fox cant make it without DI, it's actually because of his weight. He falls farther forward and down than every other character, putting him in a tough spot if he doesn't DI.

Yes Shulk has jump monado, but I figured everyone knew he could make it with Jump, so I tested it without.

You can vector and DI, so I vectored into the stage and DI'd slightly upward after. Vectoring up wouldn't reduce the knockback.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

So you're saying that when you vectored and DI'd, what you did was and then rather than just holding ? Because if I understand vectoring correctly, the former would help you live longer than the latter.

So Fox can't make it even when pointed directly up. Didn't know Diddy's thing was frame perfect, that seems kinda weird to me. I think wall-clinging will be important to any Diddy players in SLHG though, which is why I brought it up.

 

[ZADD]

So you're saying that when you vectored and DI'd, what you did was and then rather than just holding ? Because if I understand vectoring correctly, the former would help you live longer than the latter.

So Fox can't make it even when pointed directly up. Didn't know Diddy's thing was frame perfect, that seems kinda weird to me. I think wall-clinging will be important to any Diddy players in SLHG though, which is why I brought it up.

I vectored , then after the vector I held . From my experimenting that gave me the best chance at coming back.

By frame perfect I mean you would have to Vector + DI, wall cling after Side-B, wall jump UP, then immediately Up-b. (Not easy to do consistently) So yes, wall clinging will be huge for Diddies, Sheiks, and Greninjas, of that I'm certain.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Does anyone want to play some matches right now? Match-maker thread is kinda dead and the smash ladder chat isn't very active at the moment.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Don't let the skill gap fool you, Frank is pretty bad with Ganon. He kept trying to use the move in neutral, which is terrible. If you notice, when I use it It's for pressure and edge-guarding, very different and much more abusive/successful.
Also, @ DNeon no, that's Sonic's regular Side-B jump cancel.


Basically what I'm trying to say is that based on the results, Ganon doesn't need a supplemented recovery. There are other characters that suffer in the same regard (Horizontal) but are actually worse than Ganon! (Link, Diddy, Lucina, Ike etc.)

Why does Ganon get a custom when his normal recovery is actually really average in perspective? You could easily compare Wizard Kick to Dash Claw in terms of offense, both moves drastically change the way the character plays by a hell of a lot, and that't subjective/wrong. I'm not saying Wizard Kick doesn't help, but if we give Ganon Wizard's Kick we are definitely playing favorites. Super Duck Jump hardly changes DHD at all, only the way he gets back on stage. The windbox is very hard to land offensively, epecially off-stage.

@ Muro has a seriously good point about subjectivity, and after messing with Wizard Kick's offensive pressure im in 100% agreement with him. It gives Ganondorf options that he wouldn't normally have (Like having a mid-screen off-stage kill move, and being able to recover from the blast zone, not very Ganondorfy imo)
Of course it'd be up to TO's, but if I were a TO I'd only allow Tornado Hold and Super Duck Jump.

"- Ganon doesn't deserve a joke of a recovery, he deserves the potential to survive past 30% as a heavy..." You- (c) a day ago,

You wreck a player who clearly isn't on your level (Falcon didnt combo the super combo-able Ganon once the whole match Or sheild for that matter) while using drop kick to off stage gimp and that makes you deem the move abusive' ? You could've used default down B in its place and your results on stage would've still been the same because the opponent ate most of your attacks for free.

Since when can't Ganon Kill characters off stage and since when didn't down B send characters flying when it landed at decent percents?? You could have just as easily faired, naired ,or U Aired off stage Falcon and recovered (most of the Damage you did didnt even come from drop kick in the match against falcon, just the gimps which i see no problem with a move gimping a character or actually being used in the match).

The move on the ground is the same as Regular Down B, (just as punishabhe if you know what the trigger buttons do) he just attacks diagonally.It has landing lag just as default Down B does if it misses or if you are airborne while using it. And as for Ganon Recovering from the blast zone not being very "Ganondorfy" you must've never seen melee Ganon's recovery method (Down B jump reset, Down B Jump Reset).

But hey, I guess recovering from deep as a heavy is only Bowser'y,DeDeDe'y, and Donkey Kong'y.

Does anyone want to play some matches right now? Match-maker thread is kinda dead and the smash ladder chat isn't very active at the moment.

Edit- I dont mind playing a few Keith- NNID -saturnfrost
Not sure if the rules are 3 stock 7 min,3 stock 8 min,or 4 stock 8 min

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Okay let me get one more round in on FG with this guy :D.

Anyone else excited for Lucas on the 14th?

EDIT: I prefer 4 stock 8 mins, but I'm okay with 3 stock 8 mins also. I'll go ahead and make the room.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Edited: I didn't want to double post, but here's that recovery video I was talking about. No big shocker, the worst recoveries are...

I'm not sure that that is fair to say. Very, very few moves send at as sharp an angle as Falcon D-Tilt, and from the looks of it, many moves that cancel your momentum allow you to move more-or-less normally. Diddy using Forward-B high up would likely still give him a ton of distance without any significant issue; same with Sonic's Spinshot.

 

[ZADD]

Diddy using Forward-B high up would likely still give him a ton of distance without any significant issue; same with Sonic's Spinshot.

Heavy Gravity affects Spin shots angle, it sends you down really fast. Timing the cancel is important. I'll be honest I don't know much about Diddy, there's actually not many Diddys in my scene and I'm not good with him. I'm sure he has plenty of options.

I know I've been back and forth on some customs, or even customs altogether. Like @ Muro said, I'm just up for discussion and experimentation. No point in making a definite ruleset until we have a tournament where it's implemented.

Edited: I actually didn't know you couldn't B-reverse Ganon's Down-B (or it's hard). I'm only concerned with how much Wizard Kick boosts Ganon's off-stage game. If you push someone off with WK, it set's you up 100x better for a kill than his regular down-B. Wizard Kick also has a gigantic hitbox and has a more lenient ledge cancel, making the whole process easier/safer.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Okay let me get one more round in on FG with this guy :D.

Anyone else excited for Lucas on the 14th?

EDIT: I prefer 4 stock 8 mins, but I'm okay with 3 stock 8 mins also. I'll go ahead and make the room.

GGs Dude... So fun ^_^

 

[KeithTheGeek]

GGs Saturn. I admit I was getting salty for a while there because of my mistakes, and the things you were doing with some characters that seemed like they shouldn't have worked actually did work in a lot of the cases. And if I had a dime for the number of times I messed up Zelda's teleport in this game....

But yeah, they were fun. I was happy I got to show off some of the Wario stuff I was working on in a couple of those matches, though I don't know if I'm going to keep pushing him or focus on other characters. SLHG Zelda is a lot of fun, and Meta Knight comes pretty easily to me from PM.

I like that Falco of yours. You were doing some interesting stuff with him.

 

[nannerham]

Sweet jesus oli can double usmash we PM now

 

[Muro]

wow, the thread is moving too fast for me to follow, sorry if I don't reply to everyone.

It should be noted that just because Muro owns this thread doesn't mean he decides the ruleset. If he doesn't want Dropkick but everybody else finds it fine, there's no reason to not use it.

Of course, but don't you see what I talked about already happening in this thread? veggie wants the super long ungimpable up b for mega man, hobbes wants claw dash for bowser and something for charizard, dneon wants spin hammer or whatever for sonic. It's exactly what I was saying would happen, and that's in our very small community. By enabling ganon you open the doors for people to ask "so if he gets it, why can't my main get it?". Imagine what it would be like if SLHG ever took off.

The only potential advantage I see in this is that it might make more people try the mode.

I'm not sure that that is fair to say. Very, very few moves send at as sharp an angle as Falcon D-Tilt, and from the looks of it, many moves that cancel your momentum allow you to move more-or-less normally. Diddy using Forward-B high up would likely still give him a ton of distance without any significant issue; same with Sonic's Spinshot.

Also, when used horizontally, his up b covers a lot of distance. It only gets worse vertically.

Btw reflex did you try SLHG yet, or if you didn't, are you planning to? With your skill level you'd be able to show it off much better than we've been able to do so far.

Ok @ ZADD I'm gonna add that recovery video to the OP. Also you make giffys now? that's awesome dude.

edit: knew I forgot something lol

Anyone else excited for Lucas on the 14th?

Yeah, although I'm more interested in knowing what other changes the patch will do. I need to play earthbound.

 

[SaturnFrost]

Are you guys interested in testing some of the competitive inspired stages From the Custom Stage Thread? Perhaps start with familiar/ reinvented Smash stages first? Or are you guys interested in testing and discussing new possible choices for vanilla stages for the time being?

Edit: Guess Not. Sadly those stages get deleted super fast so ...yeah about that

 

[DNeon]

dneon wants spin hammer or whatever for sonic.

Wat?

EDIT: I wasn't advocating anything, I'm just too noob-y to know what hammer spin dash and regular spin dash look like when jump cancelled and thought ZADD used hammer when he was just using regular.

 

[VeggieSteel]

I vectored , then after the vector I held . From my experimenting that gave me the best chance at coming back.

Huh, I always thought you had to hold the direction to vector properly. This is helpful to know! Thanks for posting that video, btw, good to know everyone (except the doggie) has a fair shake at recovering, with proper DI.

 

[Muro]

Are you guys interested in testing some of the competitive inspired stages From the Custom Stage Thread? Perhaps start with familiar/ reinvented Smash stages first? Or are you guys interested in testing and discussing new possible choices for vanilla stages for the time being?

Edit: Guess Not. Sadly those stages get deleted super fast so ...yeah about that

I'm interested, can someone please send me the PS custom stage?

 

[SaturnFrost]

I've done some deep thinking and I'm fine with testing some more of the heavies alt abilites mentioned which were Bowsers:Bowser Claw,Charizards: Dragon Rush,and Donkey kongs: Kong cyclone. It's only fair that we test these in matches since Ganon's Dropkick was given a chance.