Smash will SUCK without L-Canceling

[AlphaDragoon2002]

Yes. People in Japan have played the game. Last I checked, Dedede ***** Ike when played by two professional smashers.

And for the record, Dedede was owning because of his easy and seemingly cheap chain grab...the one Masashi (guy playing Ike) was ALREADY finding a way to escape after only 5 fights.

 

[paper_crane]

I don't see how it's ridiculous. In Melee, some of the speedy characters had moves that did 20%. In this game their moves are nerfed to what they should be. Not only that, but the percentages to be KO'd have also changed in favor of the character's weight class. I may not have played the game, but the people in Japan have and are playing. These videos of the final game should be enough to use for speculation.

Not that there's anything inherently wrong with speculation, but it's just that--speculation. You can't accurately predict what the metagame will be like three years down the line. Yes, we can make general statements like "fast characters tend to have more trouble killing things," but it doesn't mean that there are no fast powerhouses, or that every heavy character will be strong enough to make up for being slow. We have no idea what each character's potential is right now--we don't even know most of the movesets, let alone any of the advanced techniques that might show up.

All the footage we've seen so far depicts casual play, even when the characters are controlled by competitive SSBM players, so it's way too early to be making any judgments about how many characters will be viable in competition. Anything we can say right now about the game's balance is basically a wild guess.

 

[Myztek]

What SheerMadness says is true.

Some characters, such as Ganondorf, will be virtually unplayable against a good, speedy character in Brawl. Simply because Ganondorf cannot move quick enough to get his hits in. It doesn't matter how strong he is, if he's too slow to land his hits, then he can't win.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Well, that's sort of the extreme case. People have been talking about Ike being bottom tier ever since E for All, only now there's no L-canceling to save him.

Ike will not be a tournament viable character. Do you guys know why. Even though he is the most powerful character in the game, and has range rivaling Marth's, he's just too slow. He just can't more than one hit on his opponent. The other character's don't have to be powerful to beat him, they just have to use thier fast moves to hit him out of every single attack. They just have to shield and then punish his incredibly lag. They could be the weakest characters in the game for all I care, but as long as they have the possibility to kill him (whether it be at 999% from an up throw, or at 500% from a f-tilt) they will beat him. That's the problem with slow characters. That's what L-canceling and Z-canceling fixed. Without that, slow characters can't bait opponents. They can't approach either. All they can do is defend, and defend until their ultimate demise.

Lag canceling techniques exist in fighting games in general, as a way to balance the game and add depth at the same time. The Roman cancel in guilty gear, The suriken cancel in the Narutimate Hero (ultimate ninja) series, Y cancel in the clash of ninja series, and in a bunch of other fighting game you could cancel a move's animation by preforming a special. Smash will actually be one of the only fighting games I know that doesn't have a way to cancel lag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHBCH3HaPXI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSklc30udD8
Advance techs should be in every fighting game, and I just hope brawl isn't lacking.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

How can we say any of this without even playing the game ourselves?

 

[dizzy]

How can we say any of this without even playing the game ourselves?

That's the point. We can't say that Brawl is more or less balanced than Melee based on what we know right now.

 

[gamer8]

L/Z-Canceling is easily the most important technique in both ssb64 and melee. Not being able to shffle or l-cancel aerials is going to be ********.

EXAMPLE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H9sZ7NvHh0

Will Ganondorf even be playable without L-Canceling?

I honestly don't think this game can be very competitive without it.

Smash won't be ruined without it... this is why advance techniques are drugs to smash players... I NEVER L canceled in smash 64 or melee and the games were still awesome, L canceling won't do **** to improve brawl, it's already perfect.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^No we can't tell if this game will be good without playing it. We can only speculate. And so far we really don't know if brawl will be a competative game. That's what worries us.

BTW, Luigi's final smash seems very, very, very similar to Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan mode (or "Passion mode.) 6:27 in the second video in my previous post. Itachi also has an alternative version of that mode as an attack, that affects a large circle around him and contracts near the end. They totally stole his move. XD

And in case anyone's wondering, the button locking they're talking about in the vids is basically a technique that makes the game not read your opponents buttons for a certain amount of time. It's a glitch that was removed in later installments due to its brokeness.

 

[NES n00b]

Smash won't be ruined without it... this is why advance techniques are drugs to smash players... I NEVER L canceled in smash 64 or melee and the games were still awesome, L canceling won't do **** to improve brawl, it's already perfect.

I know what it is was like to play both those games without lag cancelling, can you say the same about l cancelling for both?

So how do you know you were better off without it? lol Kids today, I swear.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

^^We can't. We can only speculate. And so far we really don't know if brawl will be a competative game. That's what worries us.

BTW, Luigi's final smash seems very, very, very similar to Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan mode (or "Passion mode.) 6:27 in the second video in my previous post. Itachi also has an alternative version of that mode as an attack, that affects a large circle around him and contracts near the end. They totally stole his move. XD

To be honest, I just think Luigi wants to serve people rather than fight them.

 

[Irow]

I totally made that comparison when I first saw it.

It really is Itachi's Tsukiyomi attack.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I totally made that comparison when I first saw it.

It really is Itachi's Tsukiyomi attack.

No it isn't, Luigi is just playing "You Got Served"

 

[FaceGuy]

L/Z-Canceling is easily the most important technique in both ssb64 and melee.

I would like to present the argument that attacking is more important than L cancelling.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I think Luigi's FS is gay. It should've been the Landmaster.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I would like to present the argument that attacking is more important than L cancelling.

And what about getting attacked?

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I would like to present the argument that fighting is more important than L cancelling.

Fixed. That way it covers both offensive and defensive parts

 

[Dark Sonic]

No it isn't, Luigi is just playing "You Got Served"

No, it really is Itachi's Tsukiyomi attack.

 

[bobman14]

It will be AMAZING.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

It will be AMAZING.

Not as amazing as the Landmaster

 

[Rusty Shacklefurd]

Incase some of you guys were too braindead to notice, L Cancelling in melee screws a lot of slow characters because even when L Cancelled, their moves are still fairly slow and the main difference L Cancelling makes is it allows the faster characters to get in things like 0-Death combos that slower characters can have a hard time avoiding. So even though L Cancelling is a must use in melee for slow characters, when used by fast characters, the fast guys gain more of an edge.

And another thing, Ike doesn't suck because there's no L Cancel, he sucks because all of his moves start up really slow and are therefore easy to avoid and L Cancelling can't fix that.

And another thing, if you're fighting Bowser, you can't just use shield whenever he's in the air 'cause he'll grab you with his ->B, and if you just spam side step he can flame you. Now that's how you balance a slow character!

 

[Doopliss_Swe]

We never used L-canceling at it was fun anyway...

 

[Adi]

Incase some of you guys were too braindead to notice, L Cancelling in melee screws a lot of slow characters because even when L Cancelled, their moves are still fairly slow and the main difference L Cancelling makes is it allows the faster characters to get in things like 0-Death combos that slower characters can have a hard time avoiding. So even though L Cancelling is a must use in melee for slow characters, when used by fast characters, the fast guys gain more of an edge.

In Melee if L-cancelling didn't exist the only character that would be viable would be Sheik. End of story, L-cancelling balances the game.

 

[Irow]

Well, L-Cancel balances the game to a certain degree.

And I'd have to say Fox and Marth would still be a viable character.

Even if Sheik was the only viable character, the only the only thing the community would have to do is ban Sheik.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Okay, all of you whining about L-cancelling being gone are wrong because you do not understand game design at all.

L-canncelling was bad design. Period. You always wanted to l-cancel every aerial, yet it was not done automatically. There is absolutely no reason for it to work that way. If something should always work a certain way, and you always want it to work a certain way, then it should do so without any additional annoying inputs. It is like Sprint Shoes in Final Fantasy 6 - they made the game a lot better, but they weren't automatic. If you automatically moved at Sprint Shoes speed, the game would have been a better one. Likewise with L-cancelling; it is better for every move to have a set landing animation/lag than require an additional input.

Obviously they will take this into account while balancing the characters; if you don't understand that, you understand nothing about game design. By having a set lag time they can balance the characters much more easily and they also remove a meaningless barrier. It is like playing chess with your elbows - sure, it is still a deep game, but it'd be much easier to move the pieces with your hands and you lose none of the depth.

 

[brawlmaniac]

Don't complain about the game if you haven't played it yet. There might be other advanced techniques in there that we just don't know about yet. It wouldn't be all that bad without advanced techniques anyway. The pros don't need the techniques to beat people lol, they can beat them regularly.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Smash will SUCK without less landing lag on our aerials.

I think that's a better way of putting it.

 

[NES n00b]

Smash will SUCK without less landing lag on our aerials.

I think that's a better way of putting it.

You win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Adi]

L-canncelling was bad design. Period. You always wanted to l-cancel every aerial, yet it was not done automatically.

Because it was a purposeful installation in order to set another element of skill that could allow a player to increase his potential. In the same mindset why don't they just make teching automatic, I mean everyone wants to tech when they hit the ground, hell why don't they make 0-death combos automatic too, I mean everyone would love that!

Obviously they will take this into account while balancing the characters; if you don't understand that, you understand nothing about game design. By having a set lag time they can balance the characters much more easily and they also remove a meaningless barrier.

Apparently they didn't, because in Melee without L-cancelling the tiers are completely polarized with Sheik on the top and now Brawl is shaping up to favor Peach/Meta. Increasing options allows for better balance because it allows each character to fully explore it's potential. Always remember that in the end the players decide the tier.

It is like playing chess with your elbows - sure, it is still a deep game, but it'd be much easier to move the pieces with your hands and you lose none of the depth.

Lol that's such a ridiculous analogy. A more appropriate analogy would be playing Smash with L-cancelling is like playing chess normally while playing Smash without is like playing chess without the ability to castle. The average player does not realize the loss but for avid chess players, it is just a removal of depth.

 

[SheerMadness]

Most of these people arguing that the loss of L-Canceling wont hurt smash at all probably can't or don't L/Z-Cancel in melee or ssb64.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Most of these people arguing that the loss of L-Canceling wont hurt smash at all probably can't or don't L/Z-Cancel in melee or ssb64.

QFT .

 

[Spellman]

Lol that's such a ridiculous analogy. A more appropriate analogy would be playing Smash with L-cancelling is like playing chess normally while playing Smash without is like playing chess without the ability to castle. The average player does not realize the loss but for avid chess players, it is just a removal of depth.

More like Smash without L-cancelling is Chess, and with it is Chess with extra pieces in it.

Because with Brawl, we can see what was meant to be in the game in the first place, and what was a mistake or an error on the programmers part, because they fixed the mistakes that they had made.

But really now, with over 30 options for every character to make at any given time, there is still an infinite amount of depth.

 

[NES n00b]

More like Smash without L-cancelling is Chess, and with it is Chess with extra pieces in it.

Because with Brawl, we can see what was meant to be in the game in the first place, and what was a mistake or an error on the programmers part, because they fixed the mistakes that they had made.

But really now, with over 30 options for every character to make at any given time, there is still an infinite amount of depth.

what? So they meant for air dodge to have momentum and no direction? cause that is what your logic says. Please please please make a better arguement next time.

I am not even going to lie. That was jut a god awful hypothesis.

Edit: BTW, that analogy was awful too since L cancelling was meant to be in.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Incase some of you guys were too braindead to notice, L Cancelling in melee screws a lot of slow characters because even when L Cancelled, their moves are still fairly slow and the main difference L Cancelling makes is it allows the faster characters to get in things like 0-Death combos that slower characters can have a hard time avoiding. So even though L Cancelling is a must use in melee for slow characters, when used by fast characters, the fast guys gain more of an edge.

And another thing, Ike doesn't suck because there's no L Cancel, he sucks because all of his moves start up really slow and are therefore easy to avoid and L Cancelling can't fix that.

And another thing, if you're fighting Bowser, you can't just use shield whenever he's in the air 'cause he'll grab you with his ->B, and if you just spam side step he can flame you. Now that's how you balance a slow character!

Without L-canceling...All of Shiek's combos would still work, The majority of Marth's aerial game would still work, Fox's shine spikes and laser spaming would still work, SHL would still work, so I really don't see what you're getting at. The fast characters could already zero to death those slower characters.

L-canceling sped everyone up, but it had a greater impact on slower characters than it did fast ones (because more lag was technically removed from their attacks). It closed a gap, snf made overall gameplay faster and more complex at the same time.

And yes you can just shield whenever he's in the air, because his Side B is so slow that you can simply react to its startup with a spotdodge, jump cancel nair/other fast aerial, a grab of your own if it has that kind of range, shine out of shield, up B out of shield, ect. And using Bowser's flame is a really bad idea. Bad startup and ending lag, kinda like Ike in general.

 

[paper_crane]

Because it was a purposeful installation in order to set another element of skill that could allow a player to increase his potential. In the same mindset why don't they just make teching automatic, I mean everyone wants to tech when they hit the ground, hell why don't they make 0-death combos automatic too, I mean everyone would love that!

...

Apparently they didn't, because in Melee without L-cancelling the tiers are completely polarized with Sheik on the top and now Brawl is shaping up to favor Peach/Meta. Increasing options allows for better balance because it allows each character to fully explore it's potential. Always remember that in the end the players decide the tier.

The difference between l-canceling and teching is this: there are times to tech and times not to tech. Choosing not to tech, for example, can occasionally be a useful mindgame and stalling tactic when you're caught in a tech-chasing chain grab. Furthermore, you can choose to tech in place or techroll to either side depending on the situation. With teching, there are strategic choices you must make every step of the way.

Not so with l-canceling. You ALWAYS want to l-cancel, because there's no point in missing the l-cancel if you are technically capable of executing it. Essentially, l-canceling's existence forces Melee players to press an extra button or suffer the consequences in higher levels of play. While this creates technical difficulty, l-canceling does not add anything strategically that couldn't be achieved by simply making moves less laggy to begin with. If SSBM did not have l-canceling but every character's aerial attacks had half the lag, all the high level strategies would essentially be the same, minus one physical button press per aerial attack.

Therefore the loss of l-canceling is not inherently a bad thing. What could make l-canceling's absence problematic in Brawl is the fact that many of Brawl's characters have an obscene amount of aerial lag and apparently have no way to compensate for it. Ganon, for example, is almost sure to be punished if he attempts any kind of aerial approach and whiffs, so there is a lot of talk about how he will be rendered unplayable at higher levels.

But only time will tell, right? While Melee-style competitive play looks a little bleak at this point, we can't say anything for sure until the game has been out for a few years. People will inevitably discover a new set of advanced tactics unique to Brawl, and we'll have to see if these new techniques can compensate for the loss of old ones. I'll be glad if Brawl turns out to have as much depth as Melee, but until then I think the best we can do is enjoy the game for what it is.

 

[iMichael]

Smash will SUCK without less landing lag on our aerials.

I think that's a better way of putting it.

Well I agree with 56k here. From what I've heard dash dashing to a short hop aerial will stop you in place....oh well....we'll learn to live with it.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

No more dash dancing

 

[Jumpfreak]

I've *almost* come to terms with no l-cancel.

What concerns me more is how the shield will work

Light shielding is gone which kinda blows, but apparently you have to press L or R ALL THE WAY DOWN in order to shield on a GC controller (and I assume that most of us are leaning toward using the GC controller as it is)

Quite an inconvenience if you ask me. I guess we'll know see later...

 

[Zek]

Would you guys just give it a rest? Wait a month, play the game for yourselves and then decide. All you're accomplishing now is spoiling the game for yourself. Wait patiently, approach the game with an open mind, and stop spamming the boards with the same old crap.

 

[WastingPenguins]

9/10 of the people posting in these threads are so far removed from high level Smash play they simply fail to understand how it works. The difficult thing is that they don't KNOW how bad their understanding of it is, which is why these arguments start.

Imagine that the NBA decided that next season, dribbling the ball would be illegal. Instead, players would simply grasp the ball like a football and run up and down the court and take shots as usual. Now imagine that everyone started telling them that dribbling isn't necessary and that the game is better off without it, then laughing their heads off as they ran around on their driveways carrying the basketball, pushing each other down and taking wild behind-the-back shots.

That's really the best way I can describe what's happening here.

 

[RegalBuster]

Your right Smash bros will suck with L-Cancelling returning.