Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Here's how you change up Ganondorf.

DON'T give him projectiles.
DON'T give him any sword(s).
Give him a trident.

Only acceptable change.

 

[Arcadenik]

I wanted Ganon to have the trident just like in the SNES game. God, that one is my favorite Ganon ever. He could have used the trident as a melee weapon and as a projectile and to shoot different kinds of projectiles from it.

 

[Deleted member]

We should develop this topic even further by speaking of characters that should need some moveset overhaul.

Starting with poor , especially when you compare her to 's actual gameplay...

 

[WeirdChillFever]

If you compare veterans to the Smash 4 newcomers everybody needs a moveset overhaul.

But I think most sets are fine, aside from Wario and Ganondorf and even then they don't really need complete overhauls

 

[Kirbeh]

The only enemies not related to Ganon(dorf) at all I can recall using DMV was the Cubus Sisters from Phantom Hourglass.

Now that I think of it, was there anyone at all that used DMV or a move similar to it in Skyward Sword? I can't remember, but considering how much of a big deal 1:1 motion controls was for that game, especially with the sword, I'd probably be a bit surprised (or maybe not) if there was no enemy there that had that ability there too.....

Ghirahim uses DMV in his final boss fight iirc.
Also a Blue Stalfos and Twinrova in the Oracle games.

 

[Luminario]

We should develop this topic even further by speaking of characters that should need some moveset overhaul.

Starting with poor , especially when you compare her to 's actual gameplay...

I'd certainly like to see projectiles as part of Samus' general moveset and not just specials. Her moveset is painfully held back by her being a smash 64 veteran.
Zelda's moveset is also terriblly Melee-esque. I'd love for her to have more magical disjointed attacks like fsmash and uair. Lightning Kick also has to have some change, the sweetspot hits about as much as Marth's tipper fsmash with severe endlag and no safety if you hit the sourspots, leading to such little reward for such a dangerous move. Jiggs is also one that's quite ironically really held back by her smash 64 veteran status, seeing as how she likely wouldn't be in the game without it. Even though she got an entire new typing with multiple different moves she's still treated exactly the same.
Is there anyone else besides and that require some sort of change? Pretty much everyone else (besides ) has enough to work with already with no necessary moveset changes (jury's out on s FLUDD and s fsmash which shouldn't have changed anyway).

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Yep. It's truly time for another Smash when people are already in ''BUT GANON NO HAZ SWORD!" then comes the ''GIVE HIM A TRIDENT CROWD"

And meanwhile I just snicker, because he's never gonna get changed from what he is right now. He's staying that way and we all really know it.

It's as much as a sold issue as Ridley not getting in.

 

[Curious Villager]

Yep. It's truly time for another Smash when people are already in ''BUT GANON NO HAZ SWORD!" then comes the ''GIVE HIM A TRIDENT CROWD"

And meanwhile I just snicker, because he's never gonna get changed from what he is right now. He's staying that way and we all really know it.

It's as much as a sold issue as Ridley not getting in.

I'd personally rather the trident be given to the original classic Ganon. It just feels like it belongs more to that version of Ganon anyway.

I agree that Ganondorf is a bit of a lost cause at this point in terms of getting a complete moveset overhaul. (At the very least, when Sakurai is still at the helm) At most, he might get a few additional changes here and there much like he did in Brawl (And how Bowser and Pit where handled in Smash 4), but that's more or less as far as I can see him go imo.

Does classic Ganon even have a support thread here yet? @Burruni

 

[Kirbeh]

I'd personally rather the trident be given to the original classic Ganon. It just feels like it belongs more to that version of Ganon anyway.

I agree that Ganondorf is a bit of a lost cause at this point in terms of getting a complete moveset overhaul. (At the very least, when Sakurai is still at the helm) At most, he might get a few additional changes here and there much like he did in Brawl (And how Bowser and Pit where handled in Smash 4), but that's more or less as far as I can see him go imo.

Does classic Ganon even have a support thread here yet?

He doesn't have a thread yet.

 

[Diddy Kong]

We should develop this topic even further by speaking of characters that should need some moveset overhaul.

Starting with poor , especially when you compare her to 's actual gameplay...

THIS!! THIS!!! This bothered me so much! I talked about this issue a lot as well. Just look how much effort was put in the movesets of new characters, and especially THIRD PARTY characters. They made sure those characters play as much as the original character, in the original game. Ryu for example got his whole damn Street Fighter moveset incorperated... Then you have the likes of Mewtwo, without a proper Psychic attack, Ness who doesn't use his own PSI, Ganondorf who is still a shameless disfunctional semi-clone for the sake of it... I'm totally NOT cool with that, and it was one of the many reasons I never purchased a Wii U.

As for Ganondorf and projectiles? Leave that Dead Man's Volley. Honestly, it'd be cute as **** if it was used on OOT Ganondorf, but that time has passed since Melee. What I'd like to see as a Ganondorf projectile is the Trident Boomerang.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Ness who doesn't use his own PSI,

Honestly, Ness with his mormal moveset would have probably been kind of lame since most of his moves are support based


Other than Rockin (which really should be in the game since it's his signature move) and Flash (which is in the game) none of his other moves seem particularly interesting for a moveset. Like, I guess teleport could be an Up B but PK thunder is more interesting

 

[Diddy Kong]

PK Thunder 2 actually does act much like Earthbound's teleport... But I was just saying how much of a difference in quality there is in movesets between newcomers and veterans.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd personally rather the trident be given to the original classic Ganon. It just feels like it belongs more to that version of Ganon anyway.

I agree that Ganondorf is a bit of a lost cause at this point in terms of getting a complete moveset overhaul. (At the very least, when Sakurai is still at the helm) At most, he might get a few additional changes here and there much like he did in Brawl (And how Bowser and Pit where handled in Smash 4), but that's more or less as far as I can see him go imo.

Does classic Ganon even have a support thread here yet? @Burruni

I really don't see the need for a "Classic Ganon".

Ganondorf and Ganon are the same individual, with Ganondorf just being the "human" incarnation and Ganon being the "monster" incarnation. And both are featured in Smash with the former being the playable fighter and the latter being used for a Final Smash.

And you know what? That makes the most sense. Ganon may be the more reoccurring state of the character, albeit with a drastically different appearance throughout the series, but Ganon is a giant monster while Ganondorf is a more workable (and still just as memorable) version of the character.
For the most part, whatever abilities Ganon is capable of should theoretically apply to his Ganondorf state if only on a smaller scale. So instead of trying to add a second version Ganon for the sake of using powers associated with the monster alongside Ganondorf, just give Ganondorf those powers instead. It'd be less egregious than TP Zelda using magic from OoT (which that Zelda didn't even USE) and summoning the ST Zelda's Phantom form for an attack.

 

[Curious Villager]

I really don't see the need for a "Classic Ganon".

Ganondorf and Ganon are the same individual, with Ganondorf just being the "human" incarnation and Ganon being the "monster" incarnation. And both are featured in Smash with the former being the playable fighter and the latter being used for a Final Smash.

And you know what? That makes the most sense. Ganon may be the more reoccurring state of the character, albeit with a drastically different appearance throughout the series, but Ganon is a giant monster while Ganondorf is a more workable (and still just as memorable) version of the character.
For the most part, whatever abilities Ganon is capable of should theoretically apply to his Ganondorf state if only on a smaller scale. So instead of trying to add a second version Ganon for the sake of using powers associated with the monster alongside Ganondorf, just give Ganondorf those powers instead. It'd be less egregious than TP Zelda using magic from OoT (which that Zelda didn't even USE) and summoning the ST Zelda's Phantom form for an attack.

It's not so much a "need" as much as I personally just prefer to see the original Ganon as his own playable character and personally liking that Ganon more. Especially since you can't even control the beast Ganon form for Ganondorf's Final Smash much like you can with the likes of Giga Bowser or even so much as the likes of Mega Charizard X.

And considering how Ganondorf went on for two games in a row now with not much drastic changes other than the small transition to Brawl, I don't see much hope in seeing Ganondorf getting many drastic changes in the future, besides maybe a few changes of playstyle in the vein of characters like Smash 4 Bowser but still retaining most of their old moves for the most part. As it seems to be that his current playstyle is more or less set in stone, at least as far as Sakurai seems to be concerned. At least, in my opinion.

 

[Chandeelure]

Kirby's moveset is very lame considering all the potential he has.

90% of his moveset are generic kicks, some of them are based on Fighter Kirby, but still, it is too much wasted potential.

 

[Luminario]

It's not so much a "need" as much as I personally just prefer to see the original Ganon as his own playable character and personally liking that Ganon more. Especially since you can't even control the beast Ganon form for Ganondorf's Final Smash much like you can with the likes of Giga Bowser or even so much as the likes of Mega Charizard X.

And considering how Ganondorf went on for two games in a row now with not much drastic changes other than the transition to Brawl, I don't see much hope in seeing Ganondorf getting many drastic changes in the future, besides maybe a few changes of playstyle in the vein of characters like Smash 4 Bowser but still retaining most of their old moves for the most part. As it seems to be that his current playstyle is more or less set in stone, at least as far Sakurai is concerned. At least, in my opinion.

It's a shame too, as some of these characters that simply got a bad hand thanks to the limitations of 64 or Melee could really do more with just a few actual moveset changes.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Okay... so if Dead Man Volley isn't exclusive to Ganondorf since Phantom Ganon and Agahnim use them, it shouldn't be part of the moveset?

Because that's how I interpreted "signature ability"... something that only that character can do and no one else is able to do it in the games.

The point is more "we can do more than just one move and give him other stuff too." This isn't the best example of Ganondorf's unique capabilities. It's just one good move. If we want an overhaul, there's more. Realistically, the way he fights with a sword is his actually more specific to him.

I'm not against Dead Man's Volley. I'm just pointing out that it wasn't really "special" to Ganondorf to an extreme degree by any means. I totally think it should be a custom neutral B option if they intend to keep his Warlock Punch.

Anyway, I did forget that Falcon also is an exception to the guideline of "special moves are generally signature abilities". Zelda is obviously another one, but there's a spoiler reason why it overall worked well for her.

Spoiler

Zelda is Goddess Hylia. Goddess Hylia is higher than Fin, Nayru, and Farore, or at least on par with them. It's possible she created the spells. And since Zelda is her reincarnation, they technically are related more to Zelda than Link due to the series' canon. This of course is more hilarious in hindsight, and I doubt it was inspired by the fact Zelda used the spells in Melee/Brawl.

Captain Falcon however is akin to his vehicle, and he does have a spinning move(Falcon Dive) that outright throws an opponent away(a very odd remake of how you can spin around in the vehicles to know others off the track/destroy them), but that's about the only potential inspiration for that move that could relate to F-Zero. Raptor Boost is possibly a reference to Boost Power if it was also something from F-Zero, and using Boost Power can knock enemies away from you. Falcon Punch and Falcon Kick were likely Kamen Rider references, however, as Sakurai did say Captain Falcon was based upon Japanese Superheroes. That said, the Falcon Punch became canon to the F-Zero universe after Falcon's official theme song mentioned it. It also showed up in the anime to further say "yes, this is part of the F-Zero universe now". Respectively, we have yet to see Falcon use it in his own game, of course.

Other than Falcon, the biggest major exception to the "specials are generally signature move" guideline is MegaMan. A lot of his signature abilities, even if some are from spin-offs are just A moves. They completely went a different route with him. People would expect Mega Buster to be Neutral B. Nope, an A move, and you can charge it too, just like the proper MM series.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

PK Thunder 2 actually does act much like Earthbound's teleport...

Uh...

How?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

As for Ganon, I don't feel he's properly represented as a mediocre Final Smash. All that is is a one-time signature move of Ganondorf. Ganon is not a giant in every single incarnation, and sometimes just a large character. This is no different from Bowser in that regard. Hell, Ganon works just fine as being around Bowser's size, and he's no giant in ALttP either. Most of the time, his size tends to change because he's similar a Moblin design... who were often giants in the same game that Ganon is a giant in.

I feel the Moblin design is something worth representing due to moveset potential, being the original main villain and a very notable and memorable form too(he's the iconic Ganon, not that beast form in TP or even Puppet Ganon). The fact he uses weapons as soon as his second fight(ALttP) makes him a great idea as a weapon user.

Also, as said, Ganondorf isn't getting a moveset overhaul. Not to any insane degree where he's unrecognizable. There's no need to. He represents the Triforce of Power really damn well, and that's the biggest focus of who he is. A murderous brawling mastermind. Balance-wise, tweaks would be nice, but other than a lack of a signature move or two(besides turning into a version of Ganon), he's pretty well enough. It's a great coincidence that him being a clone is actually a good representation of his characterization, but I do think more tweaks is the most logical solution. He does teleport, so that would be a reason Up B change. Warlock Punch works fine since it shows off his strong he is, but I do think Dead Man's Volley has a place overall in his moveset, even if only a custom, just like the Sage's Sword is. His Side B is already perfect and something he does in WW and TP anyway. Only his Down B sticks out, but who says he can't power up any part of his body for a mega powerful strike? That's even something they incorporated into Hyrule Warriors due to Smash and it fits him super well. I'm not against changing out Wizard's Foot if they can find a suitable move that also lets him approach easier.

I am also okay with Toon Ganondorf using two swords if we aren't getting Moblin Ganon(who can always use two swords, but signature weapon is legitimately a trident. Also, he seems like he'd fit using Dead Man's Volley somewhat too being we first see its usage directly within a game where Moblin Ganon is a major character, at least compared to his lesser importance in OOT).

Anyway, whether DMV is added someday should be interesting. Of course, as pointed out, it's used by a lot of bosses that isn't even a variation of Ganon or what is a created clone of him in some way(Phantom Ganon is designed to be like a magical clone of Ganondorf's powers overall, at least in his first appearance. He's now just a notable magically created minion). That said, it's really a question if Ganondorf would get it or a new variation of Ganon/Ganondorf instead. If at all.

 

[N3ON]

Ganon is important, recurring, feasible and unique enough that his inclusion would make sense, but it isn't necessary because we already have Ganondorf. However Ganondorf is represented poorly in his current state, and should receive an overhaul, regardless of whether he winds up at the with DMV. However that attack, although not exclusive to him, is associated closely with him. Therefore him utilizing it, while again not necessary, makes sense. Even if similar things persist on the roster.

Bowser had his fire breath, but depriving Charizard of flamethrower would just be negligent.

All that said, while Ganondorf should receive an overhaul... he won't. Which sucks, sells the character short, and is part of the reason people want Ganon.

Kirby's moveset is very lame considering all the potential he has.

90% of his moveset are generic kicks, some of them are based on Fighter Kirby, but still, it is too much wasted potential.

Kirby's moveset is pretty well done imo. He takes from cutter, stone, hammer, yo-yo/burning, fighter, ninja, suplex, etc in his moveset, and has a gimmick that was by far the most unique of the original characters, still ranking up there in terms of diversity and memorability.

 

[Deleted member]

Am I the only one that's on the side of "Ganondorf shouldn't have projectiles"? Especially ones designed to be easily reflectable just by hitting them?

The Dead Man's Volley concept of basically playing tennis with a powerful energy projectile may be "unique" and represents his boss fight in OoT, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Am I the only one that's on the side of "Ganondorf shouldn't have projectiles"? Especially ones designed to be easily reflectable just by hitting them?

The Dead Man's Volley concept of basically playing tennis with a powerful energy projectile may be "unique" and represents his boss fight in OoT, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

That's why I just want it as more of a long-range jab, akin to a far weaker variant of Warlock Punch.

It's a cool move in the games. Being easily reflectable makes it awful for Smash. It's already easy to reflect by a few characters(because characters like Fox literally can reflect projectiles. And yes, stating the obvious has a point as you'll see in a moment), but it doesn't make for a good move in a proper fight if we have the exact same mechanics. One thought is that his projectile can't be properly reflected. If it were to hit a "Reflector" move, it should not reflect, but instead disable the reflector while dealing no damage. Likewise, I think it could be fairly mediocre against the normal Bubble Shield, and should barely move it down. That said, if a person were to properly time a reflect ability using that shield, it would shatter it(I forget, is the ability to reflect a projectile by timing your shield still in? If not, ignore that idea). This would make it a very strong and useful move(but as I said, lowered damage, but I think lower knockback is a good idea too) for Ganondorf. Another point to consider is the way it's used in some games has it temporarily stun Link, so it having a more stunning property than knockback could make it a very useful tool in his arsenal.

 

[Kirbeh]

.
Other than Falcon, the biggest major exception to the "specials are generally signature move"

What are you talking about? All of Falcon's attacks are signature moves.

All that said, while Ganondorf should receive an overhaul... he won't. Which sucks, sells the character short, and is part of the reason people want Ganon.

Actually I'd still want Ganon regardless of whether Ganondorf got a proper overhaul. I just like idea of having his classic trident wielding demon form.

Sure it's not necessary, but he's arguably much more important than Sheik who was also largely unnecessary, required tons of creative liberty from Sakurai and only got in to give Zelda the transformation mechanic. Granted I don't think he's very likely, about as likely as Ganondorf actually getting changed as you've already stated.

And to clarify, I've got nothing against Sheik, I'm very glad she managed to get in when she did. I just think he'd make for an interesting character and believe he at least warrants consideration when he's among the few remaining recurring Zelda characters. Given how important he is, his chances while low, might still be higher than the one-time characters people usually push for. Though again, they might not be. I've always been fond of the idea, but I haven't seen much (if any) demand for him.

Am I the only one that's on the side of "Ganondorf shouldn't have projectiles"? Especially ones designed to be easily reflectable just by hitting them?

The Dead Man's Volley concept of basically playing tennis with a powerful energy projectile may be "unique" and represents his boss fight in OoT, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Sure, making DMV so easy to knock away probably wouldn't translate well into Smash. I'm with you on that, but I think they could still include it and just make it only affected by actual reflector specials.

Instead they could perhaps make a strong, but slow projectile that stuns opponents similar to ZSS' Paralyzer. You might ask now, "Wouldn't that just make it a slow version of Corrin's Dragon Fang Shot?" Yes and no.

It's a paralyzing ball yes, but it'd be stronger, slow, and stay out longer serving more as a pressure tool to help Ganondorf approach or be used to combo off of if it he manages to throw the opponent into it while it's still out. Think of it like a blend of Urien's Aegis Reflector if you've played SF3/V and Dr. Strange's Eye of Agamotto if you've played UMvC3. He could only have one out at a time of course, don't want to make it broken.

It's not a one-to-one representation of DMV and lacks the tennis aspect when not facing an opponent that has a reflector type move, but I think it still captures the general feel of the attack. It's has decent power, stuns Link (and Ganon when you reflect it), and in many games it's somewhat slow. This is what I tried to go for with this interpretation.

 

[Deleted member]

There's some irony in not making it an actual Volley, considering the name implies it's *supposed* to go back and forth.

 

[Kirbeh]

There's some irony in not making it an actual Volley, considering the name implies it's *supposed* to go back and forth.

Fair point, but sometimes creative liberty has to be taken to make stuff work (As we've seen numerous times within Smash already). And it'd still be possible against characters with reflectors, provided Ganondorf is given a move that can reflect as well...

 

[Deleted member]

Fair point, but sometimes creative liberty has to be taken to make stuff work (As we've seen numerous times within Smash already). And it'd still be possible against characters with reflectors, provided Ganondorf is given a move that can reflect as well...

In that case, the move should be given a different name.

Especially since after looking it up to see what it was officially called, I saw that the term "Dead Man's Volley" refers to the battle technique of reflecting projectiles back and forth rather than what the energy attack is called. :laughing:
If anything, "Dead Man's Volley" would be the name of a move where Ganondorf smacks a projectile back at an opponent. :V

 

[Kirbeh]

In that case, the move should be given a different name.

Especially since after looking it up to see what it was officially called, I saw that the term "Dead Man's Volley" refers to the battle technique of reflecting projectiles back and forth rather than what the energy attack is called. :laughing:
If anything, "Dead Man's Volley" would be the name of a move where Ganondorf smacks a projectile back at an opponent. :V

Yeah, as far as I know, the attack has no official name. Somewhere down the line fans started calling it Dead Man's Volley (in reference to the tennis match as you pointed out) and that just stuck. It'd likely have a different name if it were to actually get into Smash.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah, as far as I know, the attack has no official name. Somewhere down the line fans started calling it Dead Man's Volley and that just stuck. It'd likely have a different name if it were to actually get into Smash.

Phantom Hourglass mentions this technique by name before you fight one of its bosses, if I recall, so it's actually the canon term.

 

[Kirbeh]

Phantom Hourglass mentions this technique by name before you fight one of its bosses, if I recall, so it's actually the canon term.

Really? I guess we'll have to look into that then. The trouble now is that it's either A) Become canon, or B) Only referred to as such in the English localisation as a reference to what the attack is known as by the Zelda fanbase.

It'd be best if we could check the Japanese version, but I don't know any Japanese...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Really? I guess we'll have to look into that then. The trouble now is that it's either A) Become canon, or B) Only referred to as such in the English localisation as a reference to what the attack is known as by the Zelda fanbase.

It'd be best if we could check the Japanese version, but I don't know any Japanese...

Actually, I have it right there.

Spoiler

Literally the first sentence of dialogue.

 

[Kirbeh]

Actually, I have it right there.

Spoiler

Literally the first sentence of dialogue.

I just finished skimming through a playthrough part on YT and came back to confirm that you were right lol. With that said though, I think we'd still need a translation of the Japanese dialogue to be absolutely sure. It's still possible that the name is entirely different in the Japanese version, however if the English name IS official and not just a nod to the fans, then I could see DMV keeping its name in the English release while the Japanese version uses whatever name they have for it.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I wonder how people would react if Zero Suit Samus was the only form of Samus to be playable, and she only puts on the Power Suit for her final smash.

 

[Kirbeh]

I wonder how people would react if Zero Suit Samus was the only form of Samus to be playable, and she only puts on the Power Suit for her final smash.

Poorly. Especially if the new Smash came around with no new Metroid in between.

 

[N3ON]

I wonder how people would react if Zero Suit Samus was the only form of Samus to be playable, and she only puts on the Power Suit for her final smash.

Hellfire and brimstone.

Standard Metroid fan affair.

 

[A Distant Demon]

I wonder how people would react if Zero Suit Samus was the only form of Samus to be playable, and she only puts on the Power Suit for her final smash.

I was going to give my reaction, but it has already been posted

Hellfire and brimstone.

Seriously, that would be terrible >_>

 

[Deleted member]

If anything, "Dead Man's Volley" would be the name of a move where Ganondorf smacks a projectile back at an opponent. :V

So basically he'd be closer to Project M 'Dorf, where Warlock Punch was replaced by how you just described DMV, and holding Down Taunt allowed him to perform a slow, but powerful sword swing.

I wonder how people would react if Zero Suit Samus was the only form of Samus to be playable, and she only puts on the Power Suit for her final smash.

Disappointed, since I'm in the minority that prefers Power Suit Samus over Zero Suit Samus.

 

[Kirbeh]

Hellfire and Brinstar.

Standard Metroid fan Norfair.

 

[N3ON]

So basically he'd be closer to Project M 'Dorf, where Warlock Punch was replaced by how you just described DMV, and holding Down Taunt allowed him to perform a slow, but powerful sword swing.

He could do this in PM? :O

pun

you're the worst.

 

[Kirbeh]

He could do this in PM? :O

you're the worst.

I'm so sorry ;-;
Couldn't resist. They really are terrible though, I immediately regretted them, but at the same don't want to remove them.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

He could do this in PM? :O

Yep, and it's awesome.