Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[DaybreakHorizon]

I agree with all of this, but I'm gonna take a shot at what I believe would be the minimum outcome. Six Newcomers + 4 Echo Fighters. Leaving us with a total of 75 fighters.

• Inkling
• Ridley
• King K. Rool
• Mimikyu or Zeraora
• Excitebike
• Simon
• Daisy ε
• Impa ε
• Octoling ε
• Rex ε

*I acknowledge Rex is shorter than Shulk, but both use a blade and stat changing arts to fight. We could possibly see Rex as the in between out of the originals and echoes. What most would refer to as a "semi-clone".

If Rex gets in, it's as a unique character. Sakurai wouldn't do him dirty like that, especially if he loves the game as much as he says he does.

Anyways, my shot at 6 Newcomers + 4 Echoes:

• Inkling
• Ridley
• King K. Rool
• Simon Belmont
• Geno
• Ashley
• Daisy
• Isabelle
• Octoling
• Dixie Kong

 

[TheLastJinjo]

If Rex gets in, it's as a unique character. Sakurai wouldn't do him dirty like that, especially if he loves the game as much as he says he does.

Making someone an Echo or Semi-clone is not "doing them dirty". You can't just say "If Lucas gets in, it's as a unique character. Sakurai wouldn't do him dirty like that, especially if he loves the game as much as he says he does."

That's not an argument.

 

[Wambo]

Umm... Someone wanna fetch a moderator?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I agree with all of this, but I'm gonna take a shot at what I believe would be the minimum outcome. Six Newcomers + 4 Echo Fighters. Leaving us with a total of 75 fighters.

• Inkling
• Ridley
• King K. Rool
• Mimikyu or Zeraora
• Excitebike
• Simon
• Daisy ε
• Impa ε
• Octoling ε
• Rex ε

*I acknowledge Rex is shorter than Shulk, but both use a blade and stat changing arts to fight. We could possibly see Rex as the in between out of the originals and echoes. What most would refer to as a "semi-clone".

Rex wouldn't work as an echo, he doesn't really use anything like Shulk's monado arts

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Umm... Someone wanna fetch a moderator?

Just report the post and let the moderators do their work.

Just in case, paging PushDustIn and Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Edit: The problem has been taken care of. For future reference, let's keep that **** off of Smashboards where it belongs.

Making someone an Echo or Semi-clone is not "doing them dirty". You can't just say "If Lucas gets in, it's as a unique character. Sakurai wouldn't do him dirty like that, especially if he loves the game as much as he says he does."

That's not an argument.

I can understand that, but Lucas' and Ness' games share similar mechanics, whereas Shulk's and Rex's don't really. Rex has so much more to draw on than a sword and changing stats. Dude has different weapons and affinity to name two major differences off the top of my head. Making him an echo or a semi-clone wouldn't make sense to me.

 

[kylexv]

Umm... Someone wanna fetch a moderator?

Just report the post. Not much we can do about it except ignore it.

 

[Wambo]

Just report the post. Not much we can do about it except ignore it.

Forgot about that feature. Looks like it was taken care of already.

 

[Chandeelure]

What happened? Did "Vergeben" appear here again? lol

 

[Hinata]

• Rex ε

*I acknowledge Rex is shorter than Shulk, but both use a blade and stat changing arts to fight. We could possibly see Rex as the in between out of the originals and echoes. What most would refer to as a "semi-clone".

None of Rex's Arts change his stats in Xenoblade 2, and the Aegis is nothing like the Monado outside of them both being "legendary weapons".

 

[Zinith]

None of Rex's Arts change his stats in Xenoblade 2, and the Aegis is nothing like the Monado outside of them both being "legendary weapons".

Someone considering Rex as an Echo for Shulk ALWAYS gives me headaches. I'm like "have you even played the games?"

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

None of Rex's Arts change his stats in Xenoblade 2, and the Aegis is nothing like the Monado outside of them both being "legendary weapons".

You also can't have rex without pyra, the whole games combat system revolves around the blades being there

 

[Zerp]

What happened? Did "Vergeben" appear here again? lol

Something very inappropriate was posted.

Someone considering Rex as an Echo for Shulk ALWAYS gives me headaches. I'm like "have you even played the games?"

He can just swing around Pyra like Shulk swings the monado, there, solved./s

 

[drag0nscythe]

If we put the original 12 on the top row, Like this Image I stole from 4chan, it would make sense to have only 7 more playable. Now being a perfect square is not a limit by any means, but it is something.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Just report the post and let the moderators do their work.

Just in case, paging PushDustIn and Verde Coeden Scalesworth

Edit: The problem has been taken care of. For future reference, let's keep that **** off of Smashboards where it belongs.


I can understand that, but Lucas' and Ness' games share similar mechanics, whereas Shulk's and Rex's don't really. Rex has so much more to draw on than a sword and changing stats. Dude has different weapons and affinity to name two major differences off the top of my head. Making him an echo or a semi-clone wouldn't make sense to me.

While I would prefer the affinity mechanic be implemented, it kind of takes away the uniqueness of the Ice Climbers, even if it wouldn't function identically. They are known for being the two in one character that rely on each other being close to remain strong.

I prefer your prediction, but I think the most likely outcome would be Pyra and Mythra appearing in Rex's Final Smash and Rex using the Aegis the same way Shulk uses the Monado.

 

[Blargg888]

Aw man, now I'm curious as to what happened.
Ah, well.

Anyway, yeah, I agree with the Rex thing. There are too many disparities between Shulk and Rex for him to make sense as a clone of Shulk.

Xenoblade 1 and Xenoblade 2 are too different to justify it too.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

Someone considering Rex as an Echo for Shulk ALWAYS gives me headaches. I'm like "have you even played the games?"

Someone saying Rex wouldn't be an Echo for Shulk ALWAYS gives me headaches. I'm like "have you even played the games?"

Your argument needs more substance than that. Stating that there are differences does not refute the similarities.

 

[Hinata]

While I would prefer the affinity mechanic be implemented, it kind of takes away the uniqueness of the Ice Climbers, even if it wouldn't function identically. They are known for being the two in one character that rely on each other being close to remain strong.

I prefer your prediction, but I think the most likely outcome would be Pyra and Mythra appearing in Rex's Final Smash and Rex using the Aegis the same way Shulk uses the Monado.

But the problem with that is Rex's abilities differ wildly from Shulk's. To wit:

• Rex doesn't have access to the Monado Arts in any way, shape, or form
• Shulk can see into the future, Rex can't (not without Mythra's help)
• All of Rex's Arts are wildly different from Shulk's in terms of animation
• The Aegis can only extend its blade under specific circumstances, the Monado can do it whenever

Literally the only thing that you could use to say Rex could be a clone of Shulk is that they wield their swords the same way.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

While I would prefer the affinity mechanic be implemented, it kind of takes away the uniqueness of the Ice Climbers, even if it wouldn't function identically. They are known for being the two in one character that rely on each other being close to remain strong.

I prefer your prediction, but I think the most likely outcome would be Pyra and Mythra appearing in Rex's Final Smash and Rex using the Aegis the same way Shulk uses the Monado.

I mean not really? The main gimmick of Rex and Pyra would be blade specials probably. By connecting attacks, they build up a special meter, You would use the neutral special to have Pyra do a certain move depending on what stage the meter was at when you used it. Pyra would most likely be in the background similar to pokemon trainer. Maybe there would be a mechanic if you are actually close to where she is in the background you get special benefits or something, but it defintely wouldn't be like ice climbers.

 

[UltimateWario]

I wonder how many folks claiming that Rex and Shulk are too different to be Echoes of each other also say Dark Samus should be an Echo of Samus...

 

[drag0nscythe]

But the problem with that is Rex's abilities differ wildly from Shulk's. To wit:

• Rex doesn't have access to the Monado Arts in any way, shape, or form
• Shulk can see into the future, Rex can't (not without Mythra's help)
• All of Rex's Arts are wildly different from Shulk's in terms of animation
• The Aegis can only extend its blade under specific circumstances, the Monado can do it whenever

Literally the only thing that you could use to say Rex could be a clone of Shulk is that they wield their swords the same way.

Just saying, Ganondorf was no Captain Falcon. So, Rex could be a Shulk clone.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I mean not really? The main gimmick of Rex and Pyra would be blade specials probably. By connecting attacks, they build up a special meter, You would use the neutral special to have Pyra do a certain move depending on what stage the meter was at when you used it. Pyra would most likely be in the background similar to pokemon trainer. Maybe there would be a mechanic if you are actually close to where she is in the background you get special benefits or something, but it defintely wouldn't be like ice climbers.

Did you miss the part where I said they wouldn't be the same as the Ice Climbers?

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

If we put the original 12 on the top row, Like this Image I stole from 4chan, it would make sense to have only 7 more playable. Now being a perfect square is not a limit by any means, but it is something.
View attachment 151386

Smash 3DS, Smash Wii U, and Melee's CSSes say hello. We may not have a perfect square.

While I would prefer the affinity mechanic be implemented, it kind of takes away the uniqueness of the Ice Climbers, even if it wouldn't function identically. They are known for being the two in one character that rely on each other being close to remain strong.

I prefer your prediction, but I think the most likely outcome would be Pyra and Mythra appearing in Rex's Final Smash and Rex using the Aegis the same way Shulk uses the Monado.

>Ice Climbers, two characters that fight together
>Rex and Pyra, one character that fights while the other supports him

The two are quite different. This is like saying that Jigglypuff shouldn't be in because Kirby is known to be a floaty character with multiple jumps.

Also, the most important thing: Rex doesn't fight by changing his stats or debuffing his opponents. It wouldn't make any sense to have him do so.

Just saying, Ganondorf was no Captain Falcon. So, Rex could be a Shulk clone.

Ganondorf was Captain Falcon though, and was chosen at the literal last second because it was close enough and the game was close to releasing. The circumstances are very different this time around.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Just saying, Ganondorf was no Captain Falcon. So, Rex could be a Shulk clone.

Captain falcon's moveset is generic enough that it could be reworked to suit ganondorf. Rex straight up can't use anything like monado arts or vision so it makes no sense, what's even worse is that echoes are so similar you can't really change the things that don't work

 

[Bowserlick]

I think Echo's are reserved for characters that won't get in the game otherwise and may not be intended to progress much in new games.

Staff probably wants to avoid a Ganondorf situation, where a fan favorite character is weasled in as a clone in order to make the newest game deadline, which then leads to being trapped in the original skeletal structure of the cloned moveset for the rest of the series.

 

[Jetsurge]

If Rex gets in, it's as a unique character. Sakurai wouldn't do him dirty like that, especially if he loves the game as much as he says he does.

Anyways, my shot at 6 Newcomers + 4 Echoes:

• Inkling
• Ridley
• King K. Rool
• Simon Belmont
• Geno
• Ashley
• Daisy
• Isabelle
• Octoling
• Dixie Kong

Falcondorf exists. Also I love how you deny Rex being an echo and then make Dixie one.

 

[RandomAce]

Does anyone think the reason why they might be keeping newcomers short this time is because of the sheer size of the roster.

I mean, we’re nearing the 70’s here. And with DLC that can go up to the 80’s.

The CSS is going to be a clusterf***, I can tell you that.

*I don’t think the echoes are going to be on the character select screen because they appear to not be considered seperate. So they will share the same slot with their counterparts.

*Also, we really can’t base the newcomers based off of slots. We might not even get the original 12 on the top row or they might categorize them by series instead.

 

[Mc.Rad]

>Rex and Pyra, one character that fights while the other supports him

I honestly think that Rex and Pyra would be in the realm of kinda extra in terms of how Nintendo treats third parties in Smash games. They always seem to let companies have at least one character per franchise, which is why Capcom has both Ryu and Megaman, but not like another character from that franchise. Now an Echo Fighter may be in the realms of possibility for them, but I'm not sure...

 

[Jetsurge]

Captain falcon's moveset is generic enough that it could be reworked to suit ganondorf. Rex straight up can't use anything like monado arts or vision so it makes no sense, what's even worse is that echoes are so similar you can't really change the things that don't work

He can use vision and Shulk doesn't even use all his smash arts in Xenoblade anyway.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Just saying, Ganondorf was no Captain Falcon. So, Rex could be a Shulk clone.

Ganondorf had the same build, also was capable of doing physical attacks as shown in OOT's artwork, and still did magic in Smash. He still encompasses what he's supposed to be about, a magical maniac with immense power. It's not a good comparison. He didn't require partners to help him do abilities. Rex does.

 

[Blargg888]

Another discrepancy is their bodily features, and I'm not just talking about height. Rex wears a super bulky diving suit, which definitely doesn't suit Shulk's proportions or movement.

Someone saying Rex wouldn't be an Echo for Shulk ALWAYS gives me headaches. I'm like "have you even played the games?"

Your argument needs more substance than that. Stating that there are differences does not refute the similarities.

While I understand that his statement lacked detail, it at least made logical sense.

Reversing the statement in an attempt to throw the logic back his way doesnt work though, because it doesn't make any sense.

Also, it doesn't help your case that you've outright admitted to never having played Xenoblade 2 before.

 

[Mc.Rad]

He can use vision and Shulk doesn't even use all his smash arts in Xenoblade anyway.

Well... some of the Smash arts are only made for Smash Bros lol

Also on the topic of characters for Smash, I would honestly want something a bit more "wait what" than "HECK YES THEY'RE IN". Like when Snake was announced for Smash, nobody really asked for him to be there, but they ended up loving him because he was such a weird ass inclusion

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Falcondorf exists. Also I love how you deny Rex being an echo and then make Dixie one.

Dixie Kong makes some sense as an Echo though. She is similar enough to Diddy Kong that it's reasonable to think she could be included as an Echo to sate fan-demand. She is similar in build and similar enough in abilities with the only truly major difference being her using hair to attack and float.

It makes no sense for Rex to be an Echo at all.

I honestly think that Rex and Pyra would be in the realm of kinda extra in terms of how Nintendo treats third parties in Smash games. They always seem to let companies have at least one character per franchise, which is why Capcom has both Ryu and Megaman, but not like another character from that franchise. Now an Echo Fighter may be in the realms of possibility for them, but I'm not sure...

What?

Rex and Pyra are from Xenoblade Chronicles 2.

A game developed by Nintendo. Rex and Pyra are first-party characters, as is Shulk and the Xenoblade Chronicles series.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I wonder how many folks claiming that Rex and Shulk are too different to be Echoes of each other also say Dark Samus should be an Echo of Samus...

Just saying, Ganondorf was no Captain Falcon. So, Rex could be a Shulk clone.

I think where the misunderstanding comes from is that "clones" are not a result of characters not having enough differences to qualify a unique fighter.

They are usually a result of it being easier to make them that way. This could either be because they were a late addition, lower priority, or chosen to be clones (to whatever extent) to make time for more newcomers.

Rex being a unique fighter or being a clone is pretty much 50/50 because he admittedly has the affinity mechanic, but aside from that, he is undeniably similar to Shulk. The Aegis Blade functions similarly to the Monado, and like the Monado, it has it's own set of Driver Arts that can change your stats. So right there, that can be made to create Rex easily. So it's totally possible that Sakurai will take advantage of those similarities.

Only time will tell which way he decides to go.

It makes no sense for Rex to be an Echo at all.

Read the above.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Smash 3DS, Smash Wii U, and Melee's CSSes say hello. We may not have a perfect square.

Smash 64 and Brawl say Hi. Melee was infamous for not being perfect square and with DLC, (outside the final added one), it was supposed to be a perfect square.

but your point is valid there.

Oh. I do want to add that we are getting (currently known) 10 new fighters as of 2018-07-03.
People can call it as they want, but Young Link, Pichu, Snake, etc all had to be made from the ground up to work in Ultimate It is easier then making a new character for sure, but they are "new". I am assuming Ice Climbers was ready to go given they had them working in Wii U but cut them for the 3ds

Ganondorf was Captain Falcon though, and was chosen at the literal last second because it was close enough and the game was close to releasing. The circumstances are very different this time around.

No he was not. He was Magic space wizard in OoT. And you cannot look me in the eyes and say for the last 15 years people did not want Ganondorf de-falconed and have a more appropriate moveset. It was a claim every game. Give his moveset to Black shadow. I remember those wars.

 

[Radical Bones]

I think we'll get less Echo's than people think. Honestly, another three Echo's on top of Daisy seems crazy to me. I think we'll get another one Echo at the most, so there'll be four in the game. And another five newcomers. So that this game has nine newcomers.

Boy, it's going to be competitive...

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I think where the misunderstanding comes from is that "clones" are not a result of characters not having enough differences to qualify a unique fighter.

They are usually a result of it being easier to make them that way. This could either be because they were a late addition, lower priority, or chosen to be clones (to whatever extent) to make time for more newcomers.

Rex being a unique fighter or being a clone is pretty much 50/50 because he admittedly has the affinity mechanic, but aside from that, he is undeniably similar to Shulk. The Aegis Blade functions similarly to the Monado, and like the Monado, it has it's own set of Driver Arts that can change your stats. So right there, that can be made to create Rex easily. So it's totally possible that Sakurai will take advantage of those similarities.

Only time will tell which way he decides to go.

I mean not really?
Sword Bash Doesn't
Rolling Smash only decrease agro
Double Spinning Edge Doesn't
Anchor shot drops hp.

And the blade specials don't change stats either.

There aren't any stat changing moves in the game unless you count moves that force evasion.

 

[Mc.Rad]

I think we'll get less Echo's than people think. Honestly, another three Echo's on top of Daisy seems crazy to me. I think we'll get another one Echo at the most, so there'll be four in the game. And another five newcomers. So that this game has nine newcomers.

Boy, it's going to be competitive...

I honestly think that it's going to probably round to 75, like 12 newcomers total. I dunno how many echos there will be. I like to think that they're making echos to fill the voids for requests for characters that are pretty similar like Daisy. Besides, 12 is still less than how many fighters got introduced to Melee

 

[Hinata]

The Aegis Blade functions similarly to the Monado, and like the Monado, it has it's own set of Driver Arts that can change your stats.

No, it doesn't. I'll repeat myself. None of Rex's Arts change his stats in any way. Hell, it doesn't even matter what weapon he's wielding. Rex does not have access to stat-changing Arts no matter what in Xenoblade 2. And the Aegis does not function similarly to the Monado at all.

I know you've heard this question already, but have you even played the game?

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I dont think Kirby need more reps I think all the main cast is there.

Bandana Dee

Besides, in terms of series Sakurai's been on, Kid Icarus still needs a villain or two before it's all set.

No...we only need Viridi

I kind of want there to be one more Echo for the sole purpose of making my "A Forceful Echo" battle into a 4v4.

+1 vs +1

Sonic and Shadow maybe

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I can’t really imagine Rex getting in as a Shulk clone. Not only does Rex not share much in terms of arts/attacks with Shulk, but his weapon does not work the same as the Monado.

Ganondorf isn’t really comparable considering he was added because of his similar body type to Falcon.

If Rex was made an echo of Shulk, it wouldn’t be Rex.

Ganondorf is again different in this case. When considering the source material for OoT, Ganondorf is shown to be powerful both physically and mystically. Development time was winding down, there was time to add a few clones, and that’s how we got the physically powerfully mannered Ganondorf.

Really, as somebody who really would like to see Rex, I can say that it really would not make sense for Rex to be an echo. Not only would Pyra NEED to be present for any of his moves to make sense, but he doesn’t have any attacks like Shulk does.