Bionichute
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Bomberman is not happening. If Bomberman happens, then we'll also get Snake back, which is never going to happen because Konami is terrible.
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Official Smash Ultimate Discussion
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TheLastJinjo
Banned via Warnings
There's plenty of obvious potential.
If this was pre Smash 4, you'd be saying the same thing about Rosalina. "What does Rosalina have? A wand? That doesn't translate well into a clear move set. There's no potential there."
I'm sorry you have such a poor imagination. You don't even need an imagination to imagine Pauline using a parasol to fight. Just look at Kirby. And you're telling me music and musical instruments can't be translated into a fighting game???
Let me guess, you're gonna say that's not unique because Peach uses a parasol for literally one move.
No, you said the same thing about Rex & Pyra. "The whole affinity thing just isn't enough for a potential move set."
Then you said the same thing about Celica, Excitebike, Captain Toad, and I believe Isabelle. None of which you never backed up with any reasoning.
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Imadethistoseealeak
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I was surprised too that Bomberman was more requested/predicted than Snake.
Overall vetrans did better than newcomers (well except Pichu...) With Wolf and Ice Climbers more requested than any newcomer. However Snake was requested less than bomber Man which I can only imagine was because Kojima???
Overall I don't get the Bomberman hype, he seems like he'd be boring :/
TheLastJinjo
Banned via Warnings
Citation needed for all of those statements.
Bionichute
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What I meant by that is that Bomberman and Snake are both owned by Konami, so putting Bomberman in a roster without Snake is weird. I'm a massive advocate for more third party characters, but Konami is run by idiots and isn't going to do anything good for any of their franchises, especially not Metal Gear.
did yall really not know that Bomberman was owned by Konami??
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Imadethistoseealeak
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That's what I was reffering to...that people were predicting/requesting Sakurai would work with Konami and not get Snake back.
Bionichute
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The only reason people wanted Bomberman was because of that one fake leak thing from the Brawl days. I mean yeah Bomberman R was Switch exclusive, but that was the single actual quality game that Konami has released since Phantom Pain. I really do not expect Nintendo to get anything from Konami without massive caveats.
RandomAce
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This is something I can relate to. I see alot of people request Bomberman, but not SNAKE. Snake was so badass and had so many weapons and was a unique fighter with trapping abilities. Bomberman only has bombs, and seems bland overall.
Wasnt the whole Pauline and music occupation only pop up recently in Odyssey? Before that Pauline wasnt even seen as a singer, just Mario’s previous damssel.
It’ll be harder to work with Pauline since there isnt much that she does that can easily translate to Smash compared to other characters, but it isn’t impossible. The team would have to take massive liberties to make her a moveset compared to other potential characters. Not to mention her appearance in Odyssey was rather small, in fact very minor.
(Although her song Jump Up, Super Star! was a top hit when it was uploaded.)
Captain Shwampy
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Imadethistoseealeak
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I really have no attachment to Metal Gear or even Snake, but a smash bro is a smash bro for life and I want him back
. (Well except for Pichu lol)
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Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
I know people love him (?), but fr, **** bomberman—TV face lookin.
Bring back the homie Snake.
Bring back the homie Snake.
MoonlitIllusion
Smash Champion
Sorry my imagination is poor for not seeing the super unique and interesting appeal of a parasol, a bag and a hat, oh and having her attack with music even though she's never shown doing that nor is it even slightly implied anywhere. They can make a unique moveset for any character but that doesn't really mean they offer much as far as new gameplay concepts go. Considering how unimportant Rosalina is to the mario series they wouldn't have even been considered had they not come up with the idea of using luma's to fight which in hindsight makes a lot of sense and fits her character, and how no character fits the puppeteer archetype. Pauline just doesn't have that and she's even less important than Rosalina.
I never said that about excite bike or Isabelle, I claimed captain toad can't jump so he doesn't work which I stand by.
I said Celica would be another sword + magic user which we already have and a lance/axe user would be more unique instead. And having pyra in the background and having rex be a regular sword user still isn't interesting.
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Tree Gelbman
100 Percent Done
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Bomberman R is why so many people put more faith in him than Snake.
And honestly? I'd much rather have him than Snake. I like Snake and wouldn't mind having him back, but if I had to pick between the two?
Bomberman any day of the week.
And honestly? I'd much rather have him than Snake. I like Snake and wouldn't mind having him back, but if I had to pick between the two?
Bomberman any day of the week.
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ColietheGoalie
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Counterpoint though: In your Melee example, having the clones off to the sides of their base character is still visually pleasing. Having them all at the end of the roster isn't as nice, especially in the case of Fire Emblem, where they're split into three locations because of DLC. I just hope it's a little nicer in 5.The "Clone Zone" is there to avoid misunderstandings. I think part of why it was used is because people might select the character, not knowing they are merely a small deviation from the original, unlike someone like Lucas or Falco. This has caused people to complain because they don't understand that the clones are merely extra additions after the roster was already completed.
The same thing was done in Melee, where the clone characters are asymmetrically placed next to the characters they were built from.
I think if I had Impa up with the other characters, it would cause confusion and people would think she's a completely original character.
Totally get why you did it that way, and not actually a criticism of your roster, just a UI gripe in general
DJ3DS
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Sonic can't canonically swim yet he does precisely that in Brawl.
Point being that the "Captain Toad can't jump so shouldn't be in Smash" argument is borderline ridiculous and always has been.
Kotor
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If Pauline ever gets in, she's gonna have the Mario emblem. Yeah, she debuted in Donkey Kong, but the DK franchise in Smash focuses on DK country. Plus, there's probably people that don't know Pauline is actually a pretty old character. They're gonna associate her with Odyssey more than DK.
Yay for choosing Celica over the FE16 protagonist. We know nothing about FE Switch. Maybe we'll finally get something about the game at E3. Fun trivia: Echoes was originally planned to be released on September 2016, but was pushed back to 2017 because Intelligent Systems wanted to improve the quality of the game.
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MoonlitIllusion
Smash Champion
Except having captain toad would purposely misrepresent his game and his character, yes sonic can't swim but it's not like with captain toad where his whole game is designed around his inability to swim. and swimming is a minor and unimportant mechanic unlike Jumping which is kind of an important part of smash
D
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I am more of a Snake guy, but Bomberman is close.
Honestly, Bomberman's chances are higher than a lot of other third parties.
This is actually a really good roster. Well done.So I wasted my time doing something that might be interesting. By going through the roster thread I created a roster based on the characters most predicted/requested.
Just some notes
- I didn't bother counting up veterans as most rosters did not have cuts, it seems the consensus is there will be none.
- Captain Toad and Toad were counted together. Overall definitely saw more Captain Toad though.
- Chorus Men just represents a Rhythm Heaven character. Counted separately none of the Rhythm Heaven characters were predicted/requested enough but together they were. I figured it was fair since no one is quite sure how the series would be represented, but on average people expect a Rhythm Heaven character.
Overall this roster is kind of....lack luster??? However it does have some of my most wanted including my number one so I wouldn't complain. Just doesn't look like what we will actually get lol.
So what do you guys think?
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But it also isn't an important trait to Sonic that is made into every single media. It's more often translated to being afraid of water. He can still swim depending the work.
It isn't really the same thing, nor is it much of an important trait at all. Tails also can swim in some games, but drowns in others, same with Knuckles, and many others. Many of the games actually design it so water is a bottomless pit instead. Except for when it isn't. It's ultimately a meaningless point as is. There's better comparisons, yes, but this isn't one of them. If the trait was so important, it would be way more consistent in works where it would make sense for him to be completely unable to swim(I.E. Sonic X, but he still can. He's just not a fan of water. Even worse is while he can swim in the first season, he suddenly cannot in the 3rd. That's literally how meaningless the trait is treated, as it's too vague).
Note, I'm not saying they can't make Captain Toad jump. But it doesn't make this a really accurate comparison either. Characters still heavily match their most important traits without issues in Smash. But also are done in a reasonable way. Nobody has infinite jumps, but has multi-jumps that still makes the unique trait of infinite jumps work in a balanced way. Sonic sucks at swimming and drowns pretty fast. This isn't really inaccurate as is as it still shows he's a bad swimmer, while not making it unbalanced for gameplay. That makes sense.
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I can't unsee his head looking like a TV now.
To be fair, Smash has Pauline use the DK symbol for her trophies.
Mario & Sonic Guy
Old rivalries live on!
I recently added a new roster image revision at the roster thread. Some inputs may be questionable, but I was also trying to make the roster image look clean as well.
https://smashboards.com/threads/453473/#post-21879145
https://smashboards.com/threads/453473/#post-21879145
Khao
Smash Lord
There wasn't exactly a large difference in power between the Gamecube and Wii, though, yet Melee and Brawl still look completely different. I mean, Melee's graphics would've been perfectly acceptable on the Wii in 2008, but they still updated the look of the whole game.
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SonicMario
Smash Master
There is this from Galaxy 2
Granted this is from well before his game was ever developed. But still, this shows him not being able to jump hasn't been always the case. Honestly I think it was more so a limit put on him for gameplay purposes since that's how his puzzle game works more then an actual limit the character has. A character doesn't necessarily need to be 1:1 with the game they're from. Especially since they could easily apply traits from other playable toads to Captain Toad. Even the playable Toad in Super Mario 3D World has the smallest jump height out of all the playable characters but the fastest ground speed out of the Mario characters.
GaroMaster
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There hasn't been much Smash news, huh? I wonder how the Official Thread is-
*looks at page number.
*looks at page number.
Guybrush20X6
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Wow, that's a Death Dattle winning catch there. (Hate it when they decide victories based off one point of info but that's for another day).There is this from Galaxy 2
Granted this is from well before his game was ever developed. But still, this shows him not being able to jump hasn't been always the case. Honestly I think it was more so a limit put on him for gameplay purposes since that's how his puzzle game works more then an actual limit the character has. A character doesn't necessarily need to be 1:1 with the game they're from. Especially since they could easily apply traits from other playable toads to Captain Toad. Even the playable Toad in Super Mario 3D World has the smallest jump height out of all the playable characters but the fastest ground speed out of the Mario characters.
If I had to guess how that works in universe, I'd put that to the low gravity environment or CT not having a full backpack. IIRC it got bigger between games.
If a trait being 100% accurate impedes a character in Smash then you can just drop that trait instead of the whole character. Go with Toad's jumping in SMB2 and 3DWorld instead of Captain Toad's no-jumps ever, Smash characters are amalmagations from multiple games most of the time.
Bowserlick
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Rosalina didn't have an obvious gimmick according to the forum. I don't think anyone predicted her as a puppeteer.
Pauline's re-design leans on the Roaring 20's as influence. Art Deco skyscrapers dominating New York, jazz establishing itself as the music of the decade and big hats.
Pauline's specials can involve:
• summoning a hanging girder that swings from off screen to rest underneath the spot the button was inputted (the beam hangs for awhile before falling; a cooldown time counts down before another can be summoned)
• using her hat as a spinning Cappy she can jump off of and perhaps landing on opponents to create imprinted Mini's that use their specials or smashes
• summoning a steel barrel (that can roll if hit) with leaping vertical flames
And her attack moves can be based on 1920's dance moves.
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Toad and Captain Toad aren't really the same person, anyway, from what I remember. Even then, he's an entirely different character in how they play.
That's basically not a good way to represent him at all. Making him a bad jumper is far more reasonable than removing his only actual trait just for the sake of making him playable. It's still important to the character. Nobody has their most defining trait outright gone, just modified/balanced out at worst.
...Where did I imply that he should be a good jumper? Toad was the worst at jumping in SMB2 and 3D World, the games I referenced as a counterpoint to Captain Toad.
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SonicMario
Smash Master
Still, I view the heavy backpack as simply an in-game reasoning they place on what's actually just a gameplay restriction. In a way kind of similar coming across any glitches in Sonic 3 where Sonic could get stuck was explained in the manual as "Robotnik's Deadly traps". Now glitches are kind of a different thing from outright gameplay restrictions since one is intended and one isn't. But they're both things the developers decided to have some sort of in-game reasoning for something particular in the game that a player might wonder about.
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That isn't even remotely what I was getting at. That's irrelevant to the point I was making.
Toad and Captain Toad are effectively different characters. They have different gameplay options and do different things. Captain Toad shouldn't play like regular Toad, and using the fact that Toad isn't the best jumper(yet still not a terrible one in general) is a poor way to represent Captain Toad. His jumping skills would be either really bad(like Little Mac or worse) or he wouldn't jump at all and have a gimmick to throw him into the air. More than likely, he'd have fairly bad jumps(making his Up B very important to his recovery) or simply not be playable. I doubt Sakurai would give him a gimmicky jump, as it just is too awkward. Stuff like having it being another Recovery Up-B like move for his Jumps is just taking it a bit far. There's just way better ways to do things than "being accurate for the sake of being accurate".
Propeller Toad
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I still think that something wacky or new can be implemented for Captain Toad's lack of jump such as giving him the ability to "cheat" the jump mechanic such as him spawning mini propeller platforms or those touchscreen platforms from both 3D World and his own game if Captain Toad is ever to perform the jump animation in Smash Bros.
That way, he's not really jumping, but still covers ground as a "jump" (also feels the same way as how the player assists him to reach high to reach levels in his own game).
Imo, it would fit in with how he's an unexpected/comical hero to have him spawn mini platforms to jump while also representing a core feature of the Mario series as a whole by literally spawning platforms. This gives him an awkward aerial gameplay, but in a way - it honestly fits Captain Toad at least in my own perspective.
Or of course, the backpack lightening/filling feature to make him a fighter that can manipulate his weight and aerial gameplay.
That way, he's not really jumping, but still covers ground as a "jump" (also feels the same way as how the player assists him to reach high to reach levels in his own game).
Imo, it would fit in with how he's an unexpected/comical hero to have him spawn mini platforms to jump while also representing a core feature of the Mario series as a whole by literally spawning platforms. This gives him an awkward aerial gameplay, but in a way - it honestly fits Captain Toad at least in my own perspective.
Or of course, the backpack lightening/filling feature to make him a fighter that can manipulate his weight and aerial gameplay.
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Bowserlick
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1. Cap. Toad could not jump and have the jump button turn on his headlamp, while switching his A moves to anti-aerial moves that double as aerial moves if he is knocked in the air.
or...
2. Cap. Toad collects gems as he performs actions. These can fuel powerful specials. However, more gems limit his jumping abilities.
or...
2. Cap. Toad collects gems as he performs actions. These can fuel powerful specials. However, more gems limit his jumping abilities.
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Gumzilla
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So story wise what do you think happened to the cut characters? Did they leave the world of trophies? The only one we get a clue for is Pichu as it's hinted that he evolved into the Pikachu that appears in Brawl and later games due to the blue costume and ability to wall jump.
Imadethistoseealeak
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I'm getting back really late sorry like I said didn't have my numbers with me at the time.
First Party:
Issac faired better than I remembered, with him and Impa getting in about 35% of the rosters.
Paper Mario and Chibi-Robo were requested in about 25% of the rosters.
But that's it... There's a huge gap between the 50% and up crowd and the lesser speculated. (Waluigig was technically just under 50% but I fudged him in because of the gap between him and Issac and Impa.)
Third Parties:
Bomberman was another one I fudged due to being just under 50% as well. Rayman was the only third party that was over 50% (60%) and I wanted to add more than just 1 Third Party newcomer.
Crash was right behind with 35% with Snake at 30% and lastly Shovel Knight and Banjo at 25%.
There really weren't any close calls and the two there were (Waluigi & Bomberman) I threw in just because they were the only close ones. The characters up there are the only ones who were consistently put in your rosters, the only ones the community really agrees upon as a whole.
Sorry for the late reply hope that was interesting at least!
Wyoming
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Can we make this the last debate about Captain Toad jumping before E3 at least? I swear it comes up every week now.
What about new stadium modes? No not Target Test and Board the Platforms or Race to the Finish. Something new and exciting that the Smash mechanics can fully utilize.
Be cool to see a course that uses character' strengths/abilities such as swimming, foot stooling, wall jumping, grappling, and so on. Maybe make three different courses depending on what each other can do.
What about new stadium modes? No not Target Test and Board the Platforms or Race to the Finish. Something new and exciting that the Smash mechanics can fully utilize.
Be cool to see a course that uses character' strengths/abilities such as swimming, foot stooling, wall jumping, grappling, and so on. Maybe make three different courses depending on what each other can do.
Tree Gelbman
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I feel like Captain Toad jumping is a thing people are saying simply because they don't want a Toad in the game at all.
This isn't about being faithful to Captain Toad's game at all, because everyone and their mother knows that the game's whole gimmick and claim to fame was not ''You can't jump."
The game is about avoiding enemies and finding clever ways to get to the stars. It has many power ups and abilities there within that could reference it alone.
The ''He can't jump" is nothing more than being similiar to being asinine about Ridley and his size being important in how to make him feel like himself.
This isn't about being faithful to Captain Toad's game at all, because everyone and their mother knows that the game's whole gimmick and claim to fame was not ''You can't jump."
The game is about avoiding enemies and finding clever ways to get to the stars. It has many power ups and abilities there within that could reference it alone.
The ''He can't jump" is nothing more than being similiar to being asinine about Ridley and his size being important in how to make him feel like himself.
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Roberk
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What we are asking for is that characters of the same franchises be put together. You could argue Melee had a "clone zone" but all of the clones were with their respective franchises. The clone zone in Smash 4 is infinitely worse in the sense that it doesn't even try to pair characters up with their franchises. It gets confusing when I'm looking for a Mario/Kid Icarus/Fire Emblem character and those franchises are in multiple places across the roster. Especially FE, it's split amongst like 4 different places, it's awful.The "Clone Zone" is there to avoid misunderstandings. I think part of why it was used is because people might select the character, not knowing they are merely a small deviation from the original, unlike someone like Lucas or Falco. This has caused people to complain because they don't understand that the clones are merely extra additions after the roster was already completed.
The same thing was done in Melee, where the clone characters are asymmetrically placed next to the characters they were built from.
I think if I had Impa up with the other characters, it would cause confusion and people would think she's a completely original character.
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