Smash Balls = New Play Style, Second Tourney Ruling?

[ThePUNK]

i hoped this was a joke, but no... they are unbalanced, random and not very skill based. Over my dead body!

1) They are not perfectly balanced but what in smash brothers is?
2) There is a bit of randomness but that is not a bad thing
3) there is a lot of skill involved in obtaining the smash ball and using the smash ball.
4) I guess we will have to kill you then

 

[GhostAnime]

Who is frowning upon you? Family? Friends? Society? Is it anybody that matters?

just like you pointed us frowning upon casuals, there are now more casuals frowning upon us. we only make 1% of the total fanbase. if anything, we should have the hardest time making a communtiy.

See, to the people we're discussing, the tournament scene is what they look up to, what they respect and want to be a part of..

you'd be surprised how many casual players actually feel the opposite. in fact, i guarantee you that there are at least just as many that despises us and want nothing to do with us; not even enough to try and 'outbeat' our community.

Again, you seem to be missing my main point, which is inclusion. In every one of your posts, you have said nothing about inclusion; all you want is for them to not play with you. You don't see that as selfish in the slightest?

well, with money on the line, i honestly don't think we're going to let that go just for a few casuals who want to use a beam sword. maybe it's just me.

1) They are not perfectly balanced but what in smash brothers is?

so you want to make it even more unbalanced?

2) There is a bit of randomness but that is not a bad thing

yes it is when the point of the tournament is to see who's the best.

3) there is a lot of skill involved in obtaining the smash ball and using the smash ball.

it definitely takes skill to have mario go in the air to the edge of the screen and press a single button.

 

[Jack Kieser]

A) So what you're basically say is that we have to knell and conform to them just so why have more people?
The competitve smash scene may only make up about 1% of smash players but I have been to a good amount of fair sized turnements.
Guess it's cause I live in Orlando...
B) They don't have to play "gimped smash". They can play however they want, that's what the setting are there for.

You're wrong. Everything said is NOT expressly designed to get the casual players as far from us as possible. Why would we go out of our way to do that?
Everything is designed to keep as much skill involved and as much luck expelled from a match. It has nothing to do with us sunning casuals.

As for “Why wouldn't the casual community want some help from you?” bit.
You tell me?
We gave them the advice that we believe items subtracts from a measure of skill?
If they want to try otherwise, they can but, we did give them advice.

A ) It's not about conformity, it's about respect and inclusion. Respect their playstyle by letting them join in on the fun, and work towards making the community better by making it larger. The Smash community, by your logic, would be at it's optimum if it was only populated by Mew2King, Chillin, Chu Dat, and others of their skill, which would be about 20 people (maybe a hyperbole, I don't know exact numbers)

B ) That's what a majority of the people on Smashboards describe item, or now Final Smash, play as: 'gimped Smash', but they say it in more words than that. It's an inferior version of the game, straight up. And, of course everything said is to make a gap between casual and competitive; why would you want casuals making your Smash shallower? That's simply what it is, or at least, that's the only logic I can think of to 'justify' the, simply put, disrespect many well-meaning casual players get.

And, yes, you gave advice already... That's not the point. People are actively trying to find balance where we can't see it yet, and people are all saying, 'Lost cause. You'll never do it. Stop trying, and we're certainly not going to help you.' Come on, that's not help; that's hindrance. You want to help? Experiment and give positive feedback.

 

[Knight-errant]

Jack Kieser, your big point is all about inclusion vs. exclusion, so let's try addressing that.

From what I've seen, Kieser, it's not that the competitive community *wants* to exclude people, or hates causuals (for the most part), it's just that they've got a certain way that they enjoy playing the game, and so that's how they're going to play it. If anyone wants to be part of their community, that's fine, but you've got play by their rules.

It's like if you found some kids playing kickball and you asked to join. You can't just start introducing your own rules! You joined *their* community, so you've got to play by their rules.

Though I've never been to a tournament myself (although I'd like to go to one) I can sympathize with their mindset.

 

[Xengri]

And what I'm saying is that the reason there isn't a community isn't because the numbers aren't there: it's because that style of play is literally frowned upon; like I said earlier, "Let the casuals go to their corner and play 'gimped Smash'."

An overwhelming majority of the casual players I've personally met, played with, and spent time discussing this with, have clearly stated that they want to play in tournaments, but are, frankly, too... embarrassed isn't the right word, but it's close. They feel inferior because of the arguments that have been presented by tournament players in this very thread. 'I don't want them playing that kind of Smash with us. We don't play like that."

And, I thank you for understanding my situation; I understand I'm a minority, and it's not always easy for people to get what I'm saying in that respect because they never hear it.

Wow, you must have met some douche bag players…

Why would you feel embarrassed going to a tournament, unless you feel you suck (which shouldn’t be cause losing is a learning process).

Many tournament goers don’t mind playing with items, on band stages, that’s what friendlies are for. It’s just that when it comes to skill, with money on the line, we rather not have luck involved.
That’s not to say you can’t host your own item tournament, someone is bound to show up.

That is terribly arrogant of you to say that they have to rethink what they think is fun just because a bunch of tournament players don't agree. I do agree that people aren't always as lucky as you to be in a place like Orlando that has Smash gatherings often... but wow. I may not agree with someone here, but I'm not about to tell them that I have no chance of being wrong. I hope I'm just misconstruing your meaning.

You must have read it the wrong way. I’m not saying to change your definition of fun to conform with what I think.
I highly doubt that no one else is going to agree to play by a certain way that some one might like.

Hell, I’ll play stamina mode with bombs on at very high, just won’t bet money on it…

And you’re acting like every smash player plays by standard tournament rules all the time. We’re actually the minority. If anyone gets badgered cause of how they play it’s us.

Play how you want, more then likely someone will agree to play with you.

Unless you make a rule that you have 9 handicap and they have one, even then there’s still a chance.

Sheesh, you don't have to hate me. I was just giving you the reasons I've heard. I don't actually support the use of items, I'm more on the neutral side of things (although at home I rarely play with items...so maybe I'm more anti-item, I don't know).

Don't worry about it. I don't hate you, just stating a point.


**** it node errors...
Can't reply fast enough.

 

[ThePUNK]

Well when mario doesnt break the smash ball open the first time and leaves himself in bad position as sonic comes and smashes him off the side of the stage and gets the smash ball for himself. . .
yeah that happend because mario there is skill in getting the smash ball

 

[Jack Kieser]

just like you pointed us frowning upon casuals, there are now more casuals frowning upon us. we only make 1% of the total fanbase. if anything, we should have the hardest time making a communtiy.

If you make up 1% of the total fanbase, then imagine how much of the total fanbase constitutes 'competitive casuals'. Again, you all have an established community already; you have no right to complain, because you have 5 or more years of history to stand on.

you'd be surprised how many casual players actually feel the opposite. in fact, i guarantee you that there are at least just as many that despises us and want nothing to do with us; not even enough to try and 'outbeat' our community.

The whole point was that we're not talking about the 'loltourney***s' people; we're talking about people who currently play casually who want to join in the competitive scene without feeling like they have to leave their native playstyle in the dust.

well, with money on the line, i honestly don't think we're going to let that go just for a few casuals who want to use a beam sword. maybe it's just me.

Again, no one is talking replacement, only supplementing. Make more kinds of tournaments, instead of just one. That's all.

 

[dustyjuicebox]

most of the final smashes can be avoided so some skill is needed to avoid the smashes. There will probably be a game play option to turn them off or on just to suit people.

 

[GhostAnime]

Well when mario doesnt break the smash ball open the first time and leaves himself in bad position as sonic comes and smashes him off the side of the stage and gets the smash ball for himself. . .

or maybe because sonic being the faster character can easily move around the stage? that's not even adding the random factor.

we're talking about people who currently play casually who want to join in the competitive scene without feeling like they have to leave their native playstyle in the dust.

then simply form the community. we can't let you change ours.

 

[Libomasus]

Well when mario doesnt break the smash ball open the first time and leaves himself in bad position as sonic comes and smashes him off the side of the stage and gets the smash ball for himself. . .
yeah that happend because mario there is skill in getting the smash ball

Its a dumb skill to compete over and has the potential to break up actual gameplay into useless stalling/camping. Lots of changes adds depth and skill, but that doesn't mean its not broken.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Jack Kieser's big point is all about inclusion vs. exclusion, so let's try addressing that point.

From what I've seen, Kieser, it's not that the competitive community *wants* to exclude people, or hates causuals (for the most part), it's just that they've got a certain way that they enjoy playing the game, and so that's how they're going to play it. If anyone wants to be part of their community, that's fine, but you've got play by their rules.

It's like if you found some kids playing kickball and you asked to join. You can't just start introducing your own rules! You joined *their* community, so you've got to play by their rules.

Though I've never been to a tournament myself (although I'd like to go to one) I can sympathize with their mindset.

Thank you, Knight-errant, for addressing the inclusion topic. I really appreciate the discourse.

And the kickball analogy is a **** good one. Now, imagine you're in the kickball scenario. You ask to play, and you play a couple of games by their rules. After a few rounds, you ask if you can all play kickball with this really cool set of rules you and your friends made. Now, imagine if all of the other kids laughed at you, said you played an 'inferior' kind of kickball, and said they'd never think of playing that kind of kickball.

Would you stay around and play? Of course not. That's what is happening here. I'm not saying people have to always bet money on a new style of tournament play. The 'friendly matches' thing is great, and I applaud it... but I'm sure that if someone even proposed a new style of tournament play, even if the entry fee was a measly 2$, the majority of the Smash tournament community would scoff, laugh, cajole, and other synonyms for belittle the person who even let the idea cross his mind.

I'm not saying that the tournament community should only play by a hypothetical alternate set of rules... but it'd be nice if they would at least entertain the thought of adding a new type of play alongside their existing kind as a supplement. Not a replacement, a supplement.

 

[Knight-errant]

Thank you, Knight-errant, for addressing the inclusion topic. I really appreciate the discourse.

And the kickball analogy is a **** good one. Now, imagine you're in the kickball scenario. You ask to play, and you play a couple of games by their rules. After a few rounds, you ask if you can all play kickball with this really cool set of rules you and your friends made. Now, imagine if all of the other kids laughed at you, said you played an 'inferior' kind of kickball, and said they'd never think of playing that kind of kickball.

Would you stay around and play? Of course not. That's what is happening here. I'm not saying people have to always bet money on a new style of tournament play. The 'friendly matches' thing is great, and I applaud it... but I'm sure that if someone even proposed a new style of tournament play, even if the entry fee was a measly 2$, the majority of the Smash tournament community would scoff, laugh, cajole, and other synonyms for belittle the person who even let the idea cross his mind.

Well, we can't be sure that people wouldn't come. You've got to give it a try first and see what happens.

(**Note: sorry about the weird edits)

 

[ShortAssassin]

Jack, I respect your ideas and your position on competitive smash but you have to understand something. We are not preventing anyone from playing their way, casual or not. If people seek to become competitive in an environment where items and wacky stages are allowed, they need to work to develop that type of competitive scene because currently, it does not exist. This is not due to exclusion however, it is due to those types of players not taking the initiative to start their own scene. Yes, we may flame someone who comes here and tells us items aren't so bad, but we don't tell them they HAVE to play our way. Nothing is preventing them from starting a new forum or holding their own tournaments.

 

[Libomasus]

Thank you, Knight-errant, for addressing the inclusion topic. I really appreciate the discourse.

And the kickball analogy is a **** good one. Now, imagine you're in the kickball scenario. You ask to play, and you play a couple of games by their rules. After a few rounds, you ask if you can all play kickball with this really cool set of rules you and your friends made. Now, imagine if all of the other kids laughed at you, said you played an 'inferior' kind of kickball, and said they'd never think of playing that kind of kickball.

Would you stay around and play? Of course not. That's what is happening here. I'm not saying people have to always bet money on a new style of tournament play. The 'friendly matches' thing is great, and I applaud it... but I'm sure that if someone even proposed a new style of tournament play, even if the entry fee was a measly 2$, the majority of the Smash tournament community would scoff, laugh, cajole, and other synonyms for belittle the person who even let the idea cross his mind.

Is that whats happening here? Doesn't look like it to me. Were just saying its broken, because it is broken. If some people are afraid of getting laughed at for proposing new ways of play, then they are assuming competitive players fill their "Tourney***" stereotypes, and you already know our position on that.

 

[Dark Sonic]

competitive Smash is about winning at all costs and being a d!ck rather than having fun, because only a d!ck would tell someone he can't play a game with him because the person isn't good enough.

Where did all that come from?! Maybe some people find a test of skill to be fun? Maybe a controlled environment free from random occurances appeals to some people? Maybe that particular group of people has grouped together to form a competative scene in smash? We like the tournament system the way it is, and prior experience discourages going back to using items because it didn't work. It's not just the exploding capsules, it's the random rewarding of a player that causes us to dislike items. I'm not trying to be exclusive, I'm trying to make the game as fun as possible, and for me, that means making it less random and more structured.

 

[Knight-errant]

Jack, I respect your ideas and your position on competitive smash but you have to understand something. We are not preventing anyone from playing their way, casual or not. If people seek to become competitive in an environment where items and wacky stages are allowed, they need to work to develop that type of competitive scene because currently, it does not exist. This is not due to exclusion however, it is due to those types of players not taking the initiative to start their own scene. Yes, we may flame someone who comes here and tells us items aren't so bad, but we don't tell them they HAVE to play our way. Nothing is preventing them from starting a new forum or holding their own tournaments.

Exactly. It's not that they want to exclude, it's that you're (Kieser) trying to build a new type of community. The current community is way too established to make such a drastic change as what you (seem to be) proposing.

Although I don't think it's a bad idea to start a parallel community of competitive/casual, and from the way your talking Kieser, it sounds like you could be the one to spearhead it if you wanted to.

 

[Xengri]

A ) It's not about conformity, it's about respect and inclusion. Respect their playstyle by letting them join in on the fun, and work towards making the community better by making it larger. The Smash community, by your logic, would be at it's optimum if it was only populated by Mew2King, Chillin, Chu Dat, and others of their skill, which would be about 20 people (maybe a hyperbole, I don't know exact numbers)

Were do I even hint something like that? If that were true then there wouldn’t be any room for me, I’m no where near that good.

B ) That's what a majority of the people on Smashboards describe item, or now Final Smash, play as: 'gimped Smash', but they say it in more words than that. It's an inferior version of the game, straight up. And, of course everything said is to make a gap between casual and competitive; why would you want casuals making your Smash shallower? That's simply what it is, or at least, that's the only logic I can think of to 'justify' the, simply put, disrespect many well-meaning casual players get.

Most likely you’ve only seen the Brawl boards. You can’t base a judgment of this site only on the Brawl boards.
Most players that actually play in tournaments, don’t mind sitting back and playing with items or whatever. They just wouldn’t feel right placing money on a match like that.
Most of us feel that items add to luck and subtract from skill.
It’s not that we hate you for how you play but, you can’t expect us to toss our beliefs out and start excepting items as part of a test of skill.

And, yes, you gave advice already... That's not the point. People are actively trying to find balance where we can't see it yet, and people are all saying, 'Lost cause. You'll never do it. Stop trying, and we're certainly not going to help you.' Come on, that's not help; that's hindrance. You want to help? Experiment and give positive feedback.

I can’t speak for the people that say it’s a lost cause. However, I personally like the way the standard tournament rules are and would rather practice in that play style instead of trying to find a way to change/ improve it when it might not even be possible.

That doesn’t mean I won’t play any other way. But challenge me to a money match and I’d expect to play by standard rules.

 

[Knight-errant]

Based on the current points that have been made, I think we can conclude these things:

1. We all like to play smash, and we all enjoy playing it with items both on and off

2. However, the competitive people are not interested in placing money on an item match (which I think makes sense)

3. There are some people (like Kieser) who would enjoy seeing item tournaments, and smash ball tournaments, and the like.

Based on these things, I think you, Kieser, need to organize some smash tourney's that include the things your talking about and see how they go over. And if you don't have the means to host tourney's, then start PMing some Smash Directors and see if any are willing to listen to you.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Yay for constructive suggestions and general understanding.

 

[Xengri]

Based on the current points that have been made, I think we can conclude these things:

1. We all like to play smash, and we all enjoy playing it with items both on and off

2. However, the competitive people are not interested in placing money on an item match (which I think makes sense)

3. There are some people (like Kieser) who would enjoy seeing item tournaments, and smash ball tournaments, and the like.

Based on these things, I think you, Kieser, need to organize some smash tourney's that include the things your talking about and see how they go over. And if you don't have the means to host tourney's, then start PMing some Smash Directors and see if any are willing to listen to you.

Thanks, that's exactly what I was trying to get across.
If you have a way that you like playing and you ask us to try it, chances are we will (or at lest I know I would).
But, ask us to a serious match and we’ll play by our standards because that what he have built on and what we feel is best.

However, if your style gets a good enough group of people to try it and like it enough to adopt it as their standard then that’s great.
Then you guys can start building on that standard and have fun betting or whatever you want.
Who am I to say how you or anyone should play?

 

[S2]

I don't think that Smashballs will make it in 1v1 tournaments.

I really liked them, but after you play with them a few rounds they don't seem very well balanced at all. There really is no point in having an opinion on them if you haven't played the game. If your speculating without playing it, then your probably envisioning them in a different light than what they are like in the final game.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Although I don't think it's a bad idea to start a parallel community of competitive/casual, and from the way your talking Kieser, it sounds like you could be the one to spearhead it if you wanted to.

Oh, if only I wasn't in Dallas, Texas... where if you play video games INSTEAD of football, you must be some sort flaming gay person (not my beliefs).

The only thing I don't understand is why there has to be an entirely separate community. Parallel or not, that infers that it has to be separate from the current Smash community, and I just can't understand why that's the case. I don't see why anyone has to leave, make their own little community, and the two have nothing to do with each other. Again, maybe I'm misconstruing, but I really don't get it; the two communities would not be mutually exclusive. I see no reason that they couldn't get along, aside from simple intolerance of playstyle, from both sides.

 

[TheRooster]

Not to egg the fight on, but I am 90% sure a lot more players who used to be casual will jump into the compettetive scene-- which is why there is all this talk of a second tourney racket.


This new game is a very big "jumping on" point. People tend to buy into things more if they dont have to come in running. Melee was full of "pros" and "tournament level" players with 3 or so years exp playing the game before it exploded.

I bought the original smash the day it came out (hell I remember, seeing a tiny footnote screencap of SSB and Mario Party in Nintendo power way before there were any big announcements or advertising about the game)


But Melee fans seemed too hardcore for me to just walk in and shed $15 on a tournament for a game they have been rabidly playing years.

Im good enough to play compettitively, but I don't because of all pros that dominate the top.

New game, new physics, new rules. Everyones starting from the same point, pro or not.

 

[Dark Sonic]

It's simply that most of us don't feel comfortable doing item tournaments because there will be money on the line. We do truly believe that the ruleset we have is the best for tournaments. That is why we are so steadfast on our beliefs. We suggested making a parallel community, because we also don't want the one we have to change. We like our community the way it is. Contrary to what you may think, most of us aren't conforming to these rules. Most of us actually like them, and that's why we don't want them to change. I don't think many people would leave our community to join the playstyle that you speak of, but that's only because we've tried it and didn't like it. However, I'm very confident that you'd still get a large amount of new members, and that people would drift between the two communities quite often, so it would be anything but exclusive.

 

[Knight-errant]

Oh, if only I wasn't in Dallas, Texas... where if you play video games INSTEAD of football, you must be some sort flaming gay person (not my beliefs).

The only thing I don't understand is why there has to be an entirely separate community. Parallel or not, that infers that it has to be separate from the current Smash community, and I just can't understand why that's the case. I don't see why anyone has to leave, make their own little community, and the two have nothing to do with each other. Again, maybe I'm misconstruing, but I really don't get it; the two communities would not be mutually exclusive. I see no reason that they couldn't get along, aside from simple intolerance of playstyle, from both sides.

Sorry, I suppose a better term would have been "sub-community." And it's not that people don't have anything to do with each other. There are events called smashfests where people just go to play smash and hang out: there isn't acutually any money or winners, it's just playing.

And there's nothing keeping you or anyone else from joining in a regular tourney. I mean, if you or I go we might get last place, but that doesn't mean we can't go, hang out with them, and have fun.

Even though you live in Dallas, try to find someone on Smashboards that is called a "Smash Director" (I believe their names are in blue). They organize smash tournaments, and you might be able to get one of them to organize the kind of tournament you're talking about. It probably won't be organized in Dallas, but hey, it would still give the type of tournament you've been talking about some publicity.

 

[Phyvo]

There has to be an entirely separate community because no one here wants to play with items when they are competing. That is the way the game is played here. I would no more expect people here to run an item tournament *out of their own free time* then I would expect them to run a chess tournament.

You can't have a single community out of two if the two communities don't actually relate to each other. Sure, they both may use the same disc to play SSB, but the similarities end there.

In the beginning, pre-existing communities generate tournaments. Tournaments don't generate communities, though they help them take off after they've hatched.

 

[MookieRah]

@Jack Kieser
You are fundamentally wrong about the entire point you are trying to make. If you were around in 2004-2006 you would know this. The smashboards was a place where the competitive community discussed things, and whenever new guys showed up we helped them out. We would link them to character guides, character specific forums, and in general tell them anything they wanted to know. There were VERY VERY few people that would bash a newbie, and if someone did bash, they would be bashed for being a douche.

There were also very few n00bs too. Every few months or so we'd see some guy come in and try to tell us how we all sucked and how he could beat us without wavedashing and edgeguarding, and we all had our fun with them and they were pretty much shunned out of existence. When a true N00b showed up even the newbies would blast them, because their logic and mindset was that of complete garbage.

The fact of the matter is, the mindset that the competitive community is a group of elitist *******s who frown upon casual players is simply garbage that was created in the minds of incredibly dumb children who made way too many assumptions that showed up after Nintendo announced that Brawl was being made. The sad thing is, that because this group rallied with other newbies that they have become associated with one another. Now it's not uncommon for a casual player to be indoctrinated into that BS mindset that the tournament scene gets some kind of sick pleasure by removing aspects from Melee and Brawl. It really upsets me that we are viewed this way, especially after being a part of this community for as long as I have.

I can only hope that things revert to how they once were after Brawl is released. I'll be happy to see all this nonsensical casual vs competitive garbage gone.

 

[Xengri]

Oh, if only I wasn't in Dallas, Texas... where if you play video games INSTEAD of football, you must be some sort flaming gay person (not my beliefs).

The only thing I don't understand is why there has to be an entirely separate community. Parallel or not, that infers that it has to be separate from the current Smash community, and I just can't understand why that's the case. I don't see why anyone has to leave, make their own little community, and the two have nothing to do with each other. Again, maybe I'm misconstruing, but I really don't get it; the two communities would not be mutually exclusive. I see no reason that they couldn't get along, aside from simple intolerance of playstyle, from both sides.

That's because they play with completely different set of rules.

Like football and Arena football, they just play different rules.
If you tried to merge the concepts it would just make both sides uneasy.

If you want to hold a tournament your style, just use these boards, you’re already a member.
Maybe ask a Smash Director to help you out.

Also, isn’t Dallas and Huston a big spot for Smashers? I thought Texas had a good number of Smash players.

Edit: I knew it.
Look:
http://smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=93
First two threads are about Houston and Dallas.
There's lots of smash players there. Get your *** to Houston and play some Brawl.

 

[Artanisix]

I don't believe the power of the Final Smashes should be the end-all decision maker. After all, many competitive fighters have Supers - many that are not balanced. Such Supers are looked into as a part of the character's moveset. Now, this doesn't mean I want Final Smashes in the competitive scene or anything. It's just some food for thought.

What needs to be determined is how random exactly are the Smash Balls. This, and only this, should be considered. Will it always spawn in the middle and fly in a predictable manner? Does it fly randomly? Can there be times when it is advantageous for one player to get it and yet not another? Can these scenarios be deemed in the game's spirit and thusly OK, or are they innately unfair? These are the types of things that need to be considered and discussed, not the power of a character's Final Smash. Some are better than others. Ken's kick super in SF3 is far stronger and less situational than, say, one of Q's punch super. It happens.

Finally, as a very minor after thought, let us consider the entertainment value in the Final Smash. Does a well-used Final Smash drive the crowd wild? After all, part of the appeal of Smash as a competitive sport is its entertainment value as a spectator sport as well. This is only a minor thing that really SHOULDN'T be considered, but hey! Just one more thing to think about. We all like being entertained.

 

[Knight-errant]

@Jack Kieser
You are fundamentally wrong about the entire point you are trying to make. If you were around in 2004-2006 you would know this. The smashboards was a place where the competitive community discussed things, and whenever new guys showed up we helped them out. We would link them to character guides, character specific forums, and in general tell them anything they wanted to know. There were VERY VERY few people that would bash a newbie, and if someone did bash, they would be bashed for being a douche.

There were also very few n00bs too. Every few months or so we'd see some guy come in and try to tell us how we all sucked and how he could beat us without wavedashing and edgeguarding, and we all had our fun with them and they were pretty much shunned out of existence. When a true N00b showed up even the newbies would blast them, because their logic and mindset was that of complete garbage.

The fact of the matter is, the mindset that the competitive community is a group of elitist *******s who frown upon casual players is simply garbage that was created in the minds of incredibly dumb children who made way too many assumptions that showed up after Nintendo announced that Brawl was being made. The sad thing is, that because this group rallied with other newbies that they have become associated with one another. Now it's not uncommon for a casual player to be indoctrinated into that BS mindset that the tournament scene gets some kind of sick pleasure by removing aspects from Melee and Brawl. It really upsets me that we are viewed this way, especially after being a part of this community for as long as I have.

I can only hope that things revert to how they once were after Brawl is released. I'll be happy to see all this nonsensical casual vs competitive garbage gone.

Agreed. I haven't been on here nearly as long as you Mookie, but I was here before the Brawl hype really took off. And same as you I hated to see the sudden influx of flamers who didn't really care about what this community exists for.

 

[TheRooster]

Oh, if only I wasn't in Dallas, Texas... where if you play video games INSTEAD of football, you must be some sort flaming gay person (not my beliefs).

The only thing I don't understand is why there has to be an entirely separate community. Parallel or not, that infers that it has to be separate from the current Smash community, and I just can't understand why that's the case. I don't see why anyone has to leave, make their own little community, and the two have nothing to do with each other. Again, maybe I'm misconstruing, but I really don't get it; the two communities would not be mutually exclusive. I see no reason that they couldn't get along, aside from simple intolerance of playstyle, from both sides.

Theres a good chance of that happening. I dont remember seeing this much debate about items being left on in Melee. I remember I asked my friends why they were playing with out items and their explanation made perfect sense.

People who say that no one will want a second tournamet are just being pessimist.

Oh and if its worth anything, the guys that hold the tournaments in my area (tournament level players themselves) saw me playing as DeDeDe the week the japanese brawl came out and laughed because they said he was a horrible and thought it was stupid that I liked him.
Now Dedede is one of the most popular mains on this site.

THINGS CHANGE.

 

[MookieRah]

What needs to be determined is how random exactly are the Smash Balls.

Every aspect of the smash balls is random. They spawn at random times, in random places, and they move around randomly.

After all, many competitive fighters have Supers - many that are not balanced.

No, this isn't accurate for smash brothers. These aren't supers. These are game breaking. Some characters like Peach and Lucario have useless Final Smashes that are easily avoided by casual players, and some characters like Bowser and Marth have something that pretty much guarantees that their opponent is going to loose a stock. This makes a HUGE difference in a 3 stock match (and for that matter a 4 stock match) and is not a trivial "balance" issue.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I too share that sentiment, dispite the fact that I get in more arguements with said flamers. Making the same arguements gets tiresome and aggrivating, though it is nice when you do find intelegent and sincere people to debate against. I suppose I can deal with the influx of newcomers if we get a handfull of well mannered people out of them.

edit: Man, I need to post faster.

 

[brdy_]

Lol, Smash balls are dumb. If I die off the top just as a smash ball comes and my opponent gets it easily before I even respawn, it's the chance and luck of the timing of the smash ball appearing that he gets it not any kind of skill.

Immediately a 1 stock lead turns into no lead, and a 2 stock lead could into a 3 stock lead. All it does is create random dumbness and random dumbness doesn't prove skill.

 

[GoodMornEvery1]

No way smash balls will make it into any tourney. its pretty much always a 1 hit ko, and the only characters that use them with any skill are the sword characters, where you actually have to hit them. all the other ones just cover most of the screen and are really cheap.

 

[Libomasus]

@Jack Kieser
You are fundamentally wrong about the entire point you are trying to make. If you were around in 2004-2006 you would know this. The smashboards was a place where the competitive community discussed things, and whenever new guys showed up we helped them out. We would link them to character guides, character specific forums, and in general tell them anything they wanted to know. There were VERY VERY few people that would bash a newbie, and if someone did bash, they would be bashed for being a douche.

There were also very few n00bs too. Every few months or so we'd see some guy come in and try to tell us how we all sucked and how he could beat us without wavedashing and edgeguarding, and we all had our fun with them and they were pretty much shunned out of existence. When a true N00b showed up even the newbies would blast them, because their logic and mindset was that of complete garbage.

The fact of the matter is, the mindset that the competitive community is a group of elitist *******s who frown upon casual players is simply garbage that was created in the minds of incredibly dumb children who made way too many assumptions that showed up after Nintendo announced that Brawl was being made. The sad thing is, that because this group rallied with other newbies that they have become associated with one another. Now it's not uncommon for a casual player to be indoctrinated into that BS mindset that the tournament scene gets some kind of sick pleasure by removing aspects from Melee and Brawl. It really upsets me that we are viewed this way, especially after being a part of this community for as long as I have.

I can only hope that things revert to how they once were after Brawl is released. I'll be happy to see all this nonsensical casual vs competitive garbage gone.

Hehe, I remember when Gaming wasn't so hot and casual players didn't know about the internet. Its almost as if the internet takes away your individuality, because I hear broken records all day both at school and mainstream gaming sites who go out of their way to piss all over logic they don't understand. A lot of times they don't know what they're arguing and just hop on to the bandwagon.

This can be applied to both Smash and gaming in general, and I've begun to notice its always the veterans who are left to stare in horror. With something like Brawl, its just that much worse. I mean, you see how they crashed tinypic and Brawl Central, or even invaded 2Chan the moment new info was revealed?

Anyways, I do hope to see an improvement once Brawl is released for a while. I guess all the other boards still being half sane is a pretty swell sign. Its almost kind of nostalgic, since I used to lurk here back in the day.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I'll be happy to see all this nonsensical casual vs competitive garbage gone.

You have no idea how much I agree with you.

And on the topic of the 'loltourney***s' stereotype... I totally understand what you're saying. I don't condone people perpetrating any stereotype (that isn't true), and when I see so obviously ill-informed n00b trying to talk crap, I do, believe it or not, set him/her straight. I only rarely see people who have been around as long as you have speaking down to other, less experienced players, and really, I, as I'm sure they, appreciate that sentiment.

I also understand, respect, condone, even like the concept of such a skill driven match; I've had many in the past, and I have had a hankering for many considering I haven't been challenged in, literally, months (none of my friends here really play games, much less Smash). I also, though, especially being a person who tries to drive himself on moderation, realize that there are people out there who really do think that anything other than 'tournament legal play' is, to be frank, stupid. The school in Washington (state) that I used to go to was filled with people who played competitively and who were complete douchebags, lots of people who are on Smashboards, believe it or not. I know they are a minority, like the 'loltourney***s' people are, but they have to be dealt with all the same, again, like the 'loltourney***s' people.

I also apologize if I grouped anyone with the aforementioned douchebags mistakenly; I always try not to do that, and I always feel bad when I do. To be grouped with either side of, frankly, idiots is a terrible fate.

And Xengri... I would SO love to Smash in Houston. I also hear Austin has a pretty nice size Smash community... I can just never get down there, thanks to work and gas prices. And Dallas... is a rough neighborhood. Outskirts of Dallas, I can do, though.

 

[Shine-Fu]

I don't post much, but this is a thread that needs a few points made clear.

First off, Competitive smash is played by those who want to play the game at its most competitive. That is to say, with the fewest amount of random variables possible. Doing otherwise makes absolutly no sense. In an environment where the goal at the end of the day is to prove who is the best player of the game, having any random elements involved is taking away from the POINT of the match. Competitive smash isn't about having fun. There, I said it. Its about proof. Proving who is the best, and gaining what that means, be it prize money, or social status (Tournament champ, etc.)

There are others who cry out for what is best described as "separate but equal" tournaments. The thing is, thats a bit arrogant. To borrow from the kickball analogy, you came to our game, played a bit by our rules, and asked if we could play by yours. We told you "we don't believe these rules make for a competitive kickball game". Then you demanded we get another kickball and set up another field for your rules at our kickball games. See where the problem lies? If your rules are so excellent, and adored by so many, getting your own kickball, and getting your own teams to go play shouldn't be difficult. And it has nothing to do with us being uninviting. It has to do with us being specific. We play TOURNAMENT kickball. We practice for tournament-grade playing, which has tried and true roots which we stick to. We have no issue with you wanting to play kickball with us, but that doesn't mean we are going to bring along another kickball, and set aside another field, for someone else who's kickball is a very different type.

As far as smash balls go, without question they need to be turned off. They are items. Hammers and starman, really. Fancy, character specific hammers and starman. Like other items, despite changes in distribution, they are still items and still add an element of randomness that is undesirable to competitive gameplay, which may I remind you, isn't about fun, it's about proof.

The fact that half are one hit kills and half are pointless just makes this even more obvious. They are less balanced than other items! At least with the hammer, whoever got it got the same power, but with the final smash, even that shred of balance is gone. Truth be told, jigglypuff could care less 9/10 times about the smash orb, because her final smash is so worthless, that the only value is denying the opponent their final smash.

Another valid point is the final smash will not just go away if you ignore the opponent for a while. Part of the 'balance' of the hammer is it is there for a set period of time. Once grabbed, it is active for about ten seconds, then it poofs. The final smash has no duration like this. whoever grabs it (specifically, spacies, sonic, Marth, etc.) now has an insurmountable advantage. They have the power to activate god mode, or to take a stock from their opponent for free. At any time. With no duration. This screams broken so loudly, testing isn't even necessary to know its bad for gameplay***. The hammer was bad, final smashes are basically better hammers.


***Qualifying this by saying we played an imported brawl. Every game was won by sonic once one of our better players picked him up,. Part of it was his skill as a player, he is not bad, but the other part is every time a smash orb spawned, who do you suppose got there first? Sonic. Who got the orb? Sonic. Who got an unrecoverable advantage? Sonic.

[edit] I should point out that while I do enjoy a good item-fight now and again, I do prefer the itemless smash myself typically speaking. I am not against items in any way (I find them quite fun to be honest) but if given a choice, I have more fun without items.

 

[Dark Sonic]

This can be applied to both Smash and gaming in general, and I've begun to notice its always the veterans who are left to stare in horror. With something like Brawl, its just that much worse. I mean, you see how they crashed tinypic and Brawl Central, or even invaded 2Chan the moment new info was revealed?

You might not have been here, but this site went down too. It was on and off until it finnally crashed. Got fixed pretty quickly though.

 

[peachori]

i've started posting less on less on the brawl boards because no matter what you say there are 27 people ready to jump down my throat just because i like playing in tournaments.

i really, really would like to have smash balls in tournament, but i just dont think its plausible. it will be camp city, and there will inevitably be people who camp smash balls like mad - and who can really blame them with money on the line?

sure, there's a time limit, but thats not really enough especially when you consider that tournament series like evo already had a problem with how long melee matches were. judging by what i've seen it generally takes a 3-5 minutes to complete a 3 stock brawl match. you can finish a whole set of melty blood in that time. i guess we could always institute a really strict time limit to prevent camping, but all that will do is make the hit-and-camp-as-time-expires strategy more effective. all of which results in really boring matches.