Smash 4 - Weight Rankings

[Kofu]

It's alright is just a joke, indigo jeans understands me

Don't have a sook about it, if I get around to this then I will.

But I really can't justify it when all the important stuff is done and there's hundreds of other things I need to do.

Plus I'm at a tournament this weekend

I know it was a joke lol
And yeah, it's not critical, I just wanted to point out that there probably is a way to do it in training mode.

 

[Masonomace]

I did some testing in Training Mode for the cause. I put CPU behavior to Control & altered Damage accordingly to when Shulk dies on the Blast Line to Falco's F-tilt on both the left & right side including the Center which is from coming off the revival platform. For the left & right side testing I had Shulk be the human player to spawn on the left side & then set Shulk as the CPU to spawn on the right side. Table is below for a decent format:

Note: Speed mode does not alter weight or defense

Falco's Forward Tilt vs Shulk

Monado Art | Center stage after dying | Left side spawn | Right side spawn
Vanilla | 215% | 181% | 181%
Jump | 211% | 178% | 178%
Shield | 287% | 245% | 245%
Buster | 213% | 180% | 180%
Smash | 194% | 164% | 164%

While I'm unsure of Jump decreasing weight due to the increased falling speed stat, Buster doesn't seem to decrease weight but the decreased defense stat from Jump & Buster do slightly affect Shulk's survival by a small percentage in this case.

 

[Sausage Zeldas]

First of all, he's already tested Shulk's Monado weights.

Second of all, using the blast line is unreliable and factors things other than weight. The test he's using involves making the opponent metal and finding the percent at which they are knocked down. As in when they start lying down after being hit, not when they are knocked off-stage.

 

[Masonomace]

First of all, he's already tested Shulk's Monado weights.

Second of all, using the blast line is unreliable and factors things other than weight. The test he's using involves making the opponent metal and finding the percent at which they are knocked down. As in when they start lying down after being hit, not when they are knocked off-stage.

In that case, Metal Shulk gets knocked down by the F-tilt at 325%. So with that, Metal Jump Shulk gets knocked down at 323% while Metal Buster Shulk gets knocked down at 324%, which isn't decreasing weight but is solely the damage increase from the Monado Arts decreased defense, so perhaps the same can be applied to Kirby.

 

[Sausage Zeldas]

In that case, Metal Jump Shulk gets knocked down at 323% while Metal Buster Shulk gets knocked down at 324%. That's not decreasing weight, that's just the damage increase from the Monado Arts decreased defense, so perhaps the same can be applied to Kirby.

Right, but we already knew Jump and Buster don't affect weight. The issue here is Shield and Smash Kirby, and the problems of there being no mode that can have 3 characters with no staling, almost all of Shulk's moves having high knockback and multiple hitboxes (the only move I found that knocks down at similar %s was his 100+ getup attack), and people not having the time/patience to work with equipment.

 

[Masonomace]

Right, but we already knew Jump and Buster don't affect weight. The issue here is Shield and Smash Kirby, and the problems of there being no mode that can have 3 characters with no staling, almost all of Shulk's moves having high knockback and multiple hitboxes (the only move I found that knocks down at similar %s was his 100+ getup attack), and people not having the time/patience to work with equipment.

True. . . the closest I came up with for Shield Kirby & Smash Kirby was in VS mode setting Kirby up with a 300% & 200% handicap. Metal Shield Kirby fell down from Falco F-tilt fresh at ~346% while Metal Smash Kirby fell down at ~228%. I kept Falco's F-tilt fresh which still dealt 9% in VS mode, but yeah it's not Training Mode. . . =/
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EDIT:

I tested Decisive Arts since they're not on the OP, & I got these number results for Metal (Art) Shulk tumbling from Falco's F-tilt:

Metal Decisive Shield Shulk: 499%
Metal Decisive Smash Shulk: 292%

Spoiler: Already known Arts for example

Metal Hyper Extreme Shield: 570%
Metal Shield: 441%
Metal Extreme Smash: 231%
Metal Smash: 292%

 

[Zethoro]

True. . . the closest I came up with for Shield Kirby & Smash Kirby was in VS mode setting Kirby up with a 300% & 200% handicap. Metal Shield Kirby fell down from Falco F-tilt fresh at ~346% while Metal Smash Kirby fell down at ~228%. I kept Falco's F-tilt fresh which still dealt 9% in VS mode, but yeah it's not Training Mode. . . =/
════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
EDIT:

I tested Decisive Arts since they're not on the OP, & I got these number results for Metal (Art) Shulk tumbling from Falco's F-tilt:

Metal Decisive Shield Shulk: 499%
Metal Decisive Smash Shulk: 292%

Spoiler: Already known Arts for example

Metal Hyper Extreme Shield: 570%
Metal Shield: 441%
Metal Extreme Smash: 231%
Metal Smash: 292%

Your post here inspired me to find out and turn these percentages into the values in the chart to calculate the weight of Smash/Shield Kirby, and frankly I didn't like that little disclaimer on Aerodrome's first post, so I thought I'd find out on my own.
(Skip to the bold text if you don't care how I got these numbers)


I checked your %s just to make sure, adding the ~33% to Attack to negate the damage reduction from Shield. Your %s are right.
From there, I checked Jiggly's %, which was 234%, then I checked to get a point of reference to see the difference between one weight point. I chose Mario and Villager, who had 315 and 312 respectively. Calculating Mario's Weight against Jiggly's weight (to get a more precise answer since Smash uses partial %s), I found out that The difference between one weight point causes Falco's FTilt to knock down a metal opponent 2.7% later. From there, I then tested the %s of several other characters, which, through calculation of this 2.7%, I was able to calculate correctly every time without fail.


With these numbers in place, I discovered the weights of Shield and Smash Kirby!
Shield Kirby has a weight of ~110 (it's closer to 109.5; monado arts like to create weird weights as we saw with Shulk), in between Samus and Ganondorf, and Smash Kirby has a weight of ~66, lighter than any other character. If you don't believe me, test it out for yourself, but I'm fairly sure these numbers are accurate.

A few things I made sure of as well:
I made sure these were the right %s even though I calculated them. I tried it on the % lower than the calculated % after confirming it worked on the calculated % just to make sure.
When in testing, I made sure Falco's FTilt was fresh, and that he didn't have a rage effect.
I accounted for the damage reduction of the shield monado art.

Hope this helped anyone who was wondering.

 

[Sausage Zeldas]

Did you account for 105% fresh bonus?

 

[Zethoro]

Did you account for 105% fresh bonus?

I didn't even know about it, but since every FTilt I used to test was fresh there isn't a loose variable.
So, to answer your question, yes.

 

[Kofu]

To be fair, about 110 for Shield Kirby and 66 for Smash Kirby fits with the ratios yielded by dividing Shulk's altered weight by his normal weight and applying those to Kirby. The numbers are probably relatively accurate.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I didn't even know about it, but since every FTilt I used to test was fresh there isn't a loose variable.
So, to answer your question, yes.

That's not what they meant. A higher damage dealt means a higher amount of knockback applied, leading to artificially lower weights.

However since it's just 5% and given what it is you're testing I suppose its negligible. I'm guessing most people wanted at least an estimate anyway

A good way to test for this would be to repeatedly hit an opponent with your FTilt until their damage displayed as a non-multiple of the attack's base damage. What I mean is KOing yourself after each FTilt to get the freshness bonus again. If the attack's base damage is 9%, you would expect their damage to show as 90% after ten hits. Since in a match, decimal percentages are floored for the purpose of display, with the bonus, it would still show as 9% after one hit, despite the actual damage dealt being 9.45%. However if you hit with the freshness bonus 10 times, it would be 94% (the .5% still wouldn't be shown). You could then mess with equipment to have the damage display a 90% after 10 times with the freshness bonus for accuracy's sake, but I imagine it would be super tedious.

 

[Sausage Zeldas]

That's not what they meant. A higher damage dealt means a higher amount of knockback applied, leading to artificially lower weights.

However since it's just 5% and given what it is you're testing I suppose its negligible. I'm guessing most people wanted at least an estimate anyway

Yeah, basically. I was just being near-needlessly nit-picky, which would make a good band name.

@ Zethoro , you did a good job. Thank you. Aerodrome may have a more ruthless judgement, is probably a bit annoyed that people are still messing around in this thread, will likely never update the OP, and might actually say something if I make enough assumptions about him.

 

[Zethoro]

Yeah, basically. I was just being near-needlessly nit-picky, which would make a good band name.

@ Zethoro , you did a good job. Thank you. Aerodrome may have a more ruthless judgement, is probably a bit annoyed that people are still messing around in this thread, will likely never update the OP, and might actually say something if I make enough assumptions about him.

That's fine. I just wanted to get it done(ish). Thanks. There's probably a more prescise way I could have done this (like what @ Indigo Jeans was saying) but for now I'm satisfied.

 

[Sausage Zeldas]

Since all weights seem to be right on a number except for the Monado Art numbers,

Reporting half-integer weights is okay. Bowser Jr.'s weight was listed as like 109.5 or something until Aerodrome found out about his damage quirks.
EDIT: I was looking at this post again and remembered that the weight he got was 107.5, and was mildly amused upon realizing that 109.5 seemed like such an important number to be because it's the bond angle on a tetrahedral molecule. How irrelevant.

That's fine. I just wanted to get it done(ish). Thanks. There's probably a more prescise way I could have done this (like what @ Indigo Jeans was saying) but for now I'm satisfied.

Ha, I quoted you before you edited your post.
Anyway, patience isn't boundless.

 

[Zethoro]

Reporting half-integer wights is okay. Bowser Jr.'s weight was listed as like 109.5 or something until Aerodrome found out about his damage quirks.

Oh.
...well crud. I already deleted it out of my notes. If I recall, Shield was something like 109.8 or something like that, and Shield I think was 65.8. Could be off there, that's just from memory.) Oh well, for now 110 and 66 are close enough.

 

[kk1127]

It still really bothers me that rosalinas lighter than a mouse, bird, fox, and a ton of little kids........

 

[icraq]

It still really bothers me that rosalinas lighter than a mouse, bird, fox, and a ton of little kids........

in smashland gravity is thematic expression, not a theory of nature

she comes floaty mcspace game so obviously it would follow her here. though you think she'd have crazier air control or something.

 

[Crow262]

Being a Falco main with Sonic as my back up, i'm in shock. I survive to very high percents with Falco, which is funny cuz he appears to weigh almost nothing. I guess my vectoring and or DI'ing (whichever it is in this version) is on point. My Sonic usually never lasts as long as my Falco, even if Sonic has him by 13 pounds.

 

[Zethoro]

Being a Falco main with Sonic as my back up, i'm in shock. I survive to very high percents with Falco, which is funny cuz he appears to weigh almost nothing. I guess my vectoring and or DI'ing (whichever it is in this version) is on point. My Sonic usually never lasts as long as my Falco, even if Sonic has him by 13 pounds.

Weight is not the only factor in how long you survive. Falco has a very high falling speed, which lets him live longer.

 

[Baskerville]

It still really bothers me that rosalinas lighter than a mouse, bird, fox, and a ton of little kids........

She must've taken that weight loss program after Mario Kart very seriously. =P

 

[Crow262]

Weight is not the only factor in how long you survive. Falco has a very high falling speed, which lets him live longer.

Solid point, i noticed that. It makes his short hop f-air game great too.

 

[Toomai]

Well I sure haven't posted on SmashBoards in a while - and it so happens that this one happens to be a good news/bad news post.

The good news: I have discovered and dissected the character attributes file (from SSB4-3DS-1.0.0). By assuming all the weights reported in this thread are correct, and making a few minor assumptions that have since panned out (such as comparing what look to be jump count and movement speeds), I have been able to assign all characters to their corresponding datarows.

The bad news: Bowser Jr.'s weight is 108. No bones about it. I see shenanigans earlier in the thread from trying to work with him, so...have fun reliving that I guess?

ID|Character|Weight
0|Mii Brawler|100
1|Mii Swordfighter|100
2|Mii Gunner|100
3|Mario|98
4|Donkey Kong|122
5|Link|104
6|Samus|108
7|Yoshi|104
8|Kirby|77
9|Fox|79
10|Pikachu|79
11|Luigi|97
12|Captain Falcon|104
13|Ness|94
14|Peach|89
15|Bowser|128
16|Zelda|85
17|Sheik|85
18|Marth|90
19|Mr. Game & Watch|75
20|Ganondorf|112
21|Falco|82
22|Wario|107
23|Meta Knight|80
24|Pit|96
25|Zero Suit Samus|81
26|Olimar|79
27|Diddy Kong|93
28|King Dedede|119
29|Ike|107
30|Lucario|99
31|R.O.B.|106
32|Toon Link|93
33|Charizard|115
34|Sonic|95
35|Jigglypuff|68
36|Dr. Mario|98
37|Lucina|90
38|Dark Pit|96
39|Rosalina|78
40|Wii Fit Trainer|96
41|Little Mac|82
42|Villager|97
43|Palutena|91
44|Robin|95
45|Duck Hunt|91
46|Bowser Jr.|108
47|Shulk|102
48|Greninja|94
49|Pac-Man|95
50|Mega Man|102
51|Giga Bowser|400
52|Wario-Man|107
53|Giga Mac|140
54|Mega Lucario|99
55|???|100
56|???|100
57|???|100

(I presume that the ??? set is Master Hand and such.)

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Amazing!! So these are the values coded in the game, used by the game, with units the game uses? Can I ask you how you even began to go about this? Like, how did you dump the file, how did you open it, etc etc etc

Sorry this is just one of those things I have been waiting for and am really excited.

Also, since you were able to find the file containing character attributes, would it be possible to find the files that cover things such as attribute changers (Monado Arts, Deep/Steady Breathing, reflector/pocket multipliers)??

 

[Toomai]

Amazing!! So these are the values coded in the game, used by the game, with units the game uses? Can I ask you how you even began to go about this? Like, how did you dump the file, how did you open it, etc etc etc

The file is param/fighter/figter_param.bin. You'll need to have the decrypted ROM to get the folder structure unpacked. Don't ask me how, I don't remember which of the 25+ things I tried worked.

Also, since you were able to find the file containing character attributes, would it be possible to find the files that cover things such as attribute changers (Monado Arts, Deep/Steady Breathing, reflector/pocket multipliers)??

Finding the files isn't the hard part at this point (for example, I'm pretty sure the Monado multipliers are in fighter_param_vl_shulk.bin), it's wading through several kilobytes of undocumented numbers to make educated guesses about what they could relate to. Honestly I got lucky in how we got most of the weight numbers right, it probably saved me several days of trying to block together 102KB of stuff (that was otherwise too long to fit in Excel).

Having found weights, I suspect it won't be too hard to find movement speeds, especially if the order of things matches previous games like it tends to do. (For example, if I see that Sonic has the biggest of something, that's probably run speed.)

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

ID|Character|Weight
1|Bowser|128
2|Donkey Kong|122
3|King Dedede|119
4|Charizard|115
5|Ganondorf|112
6|Bowser Jr.|108
6|Samus|108
7|Ike|107
7|Wario|107
8|R.O.B.|106
9|Captain Falcon|104
9|Link|104
9|Yoshi|104
10|Mega Man|102
10|Mii (Heavy)|102
10|Shulk|102
11|Mii (Medium)|100
12|Lucario|99
13|Dr. Mario|98
13|Mario|98
14|Luigi|97
14|Mii (Light)|97
14|Villager|97
15|Dark Pit|96
15|Pit|96
15|Wii Fit Trainer|96
16|Pac-Man|95
16|Robin|95
16|Sonic|95
17|Greninja|94
17|Ness|94
18|Diddy Kong|93
18|Toon Link|93
19|Duck Hunt|91
19|Palutena|91
20|Lucina|90
20|Marth|90
21|Peach|89
22|Sheik|85
22|Zelda|85
23|Falco|82
23|Little Mac|82
24|Zero Suit Samus|81
25|Meta Knight|80
26|Fox|79
26|Olimar|79
26|Pikachu|79
27|Rosalina|78
28|Kirby|77
29|Mr. Game & Watch|75
30|Jigglypuff|68

Organized from heaviest to lightest.

 

[Sausage Zeldas]

That's already on the first post though?

 

[Kofu]

That's the datamined stuff. We just have a good enough testing method that we got all of those before except for Bowser Jr.

 

[Sausage Zeldas]

That's the datamined stuff. We just have a good enough testing method that we got all of those before except for Bowser Jr.

I was just talking about the post right before mine, ItsRainingGravy's, with them in weight order. Also the ranking's wonky there; if two things tie in a ranking system, the next number needs to be skipped.
But yeah, I know what Toomai was on about.

 

[ArikadoSD]

@ KuroganeHammer minor nitpick but can you rename the chaacters in the OP to their legit names o.o so that ppl can easily do ctrl+f to find their character?

I spent like 2 minutes ctrl+fing Peach until I realized it's "Petch" in the OP.

 

[Shaya]

be very hush hush about it, but I did it for him.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well I sure haven't posted on SmashBoards in a while - and it so happens that this one happens to be a good news/bad news post.

The good news: I have discovered and dissected the character attributes file (from SSB4-3DS-1.0.0). By assuming all the weights reported in this thread are correct, and making a few minor assumptions that have since panned out (such as comparing what look to be jump count and movement speeds), I have been able to assign all characters to their corresponding datarows.

The bad news: Bowser Jr.'s weight is 108. No bones about it. I see shenanigans earlier in the thread from trying to work with him, so...have fun reliving that I guess?

ID|Character|Weight
0|Mii Brawler|100
1|Mii Swordfighter|100
2|Mii Gunner|100
3|Mario|98
4|Donkey Kong|122
5|Link|104
6|Samus|108
7|Yoshi|104
8|Kirby|77
9|Fox|79
10|Pikachu|79
11|Luigi|97
12|Captain Falcon|104
13|Ness|94
14|Peach|89
15|Bowser|128
16|Zelda|85
17|Sheik|85
18|Marth|90
19|Mr. Game & Watch|75
20|Ganondorf|112
21|Falco|82
22|Wario|107
23|Meta Knight|80
24|Pit|96
25|Zero Suit Samus|81
26|Olimar|79
27|Diddy Kong|93
28|King Dedede|119
29|Ike|107
30|Lucario|99
31|R.O.B.|106
32|Toon Link|93
33|Charizard|115
34|Sonic|95
35|Jigglypuff|68
36|Dr. Mario|98
37|Lucina|90
38|Dark Pit|96
39|Rosalina|78
40|Wii Fit Trainer|96
41|Little Mac|82
42|Villager|97
43|Palutena|91
44|Robin|95
45|Duck Hunt|91
46|Bowser Jr.|108
47|Shulk|102
48|Greninja|94
49|Pac-Man|95
50|Mega Man|102
51|Giga Bowser|400
52|Wario-Man|107
53|Giga Mac|140
54|Mega Lucario|99
55|???|100
56|???|100
57|???|100

(I presume that the ??? set is Master Hand and such.)

Thanks for this @ Toomai ! Bowser Jr is quite a strange one. It's funny how my original weight guess was closer (by 0.5) than my revised one.

Regarding Monado weights, I was thinking about this yesterday. It's entirely possible that Shulk stays at 102 weight and just has reduced knockback by a percent, rather than his weight be multiplied.

I might have to test this!

 

[Sausage Zeldas]

Can we call the unit of weight centimarios, since that's what it originally meant? Or centimiis now, I guess.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

No.

 

[Sausage Zeldas]

Oh. 

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I will have to double check but it looks likely that Mewtwo's weight is about 72

 

[LimitCrown]

It does seem that Mewtwo is lighter than Mr. Game & Watch. I checked Mewtwo's weight stat by using the Garden of Hope stage.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

It would seem pretty odd to see Mewtwo be THAT light, since its weight value in Melee is 85. But Kirby did get a small weight nerf after Brawl, so anything is possible.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Posting to confirm with 100% certainty that Mewtwo is indeed 72 weight.

 

[Enoki]

I'm just curious, how come Mewtwo is heavier than Jigglypuff by those numbers, but he seems to die off the sides earlier? What else factors in to this?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I dunno, this is essentially "launch resistance", which is the ability to resist sustained knockback.

DI, momentum cancelling and gravity both may affect a characters ability to survive off the top and to the sides.