Smash 3DS Smash 4 Tier List Speculation (3DS)

[z00ted]

Before we dive into this thread I wanna get across that this is completely for FUN. Please don't take this thread too seriously, the reason for posting my thoughts is to attempt to spread knowledge and inform players new to the game on what I believe to be the current metagame for Smash 4. Take everything with a grain of salt - just because I placed your character low doesn't mean it won't have potential to succeed in a tournament setting! In fact, I think that practically ANY character in Smash 4 has potential to place top three in tournament for a very good portion of the beginning of this game's lifespan. Nintendo and Namco did an incredible job on balancing the roster. With that being said:

This is what I believe is a rough estimate of the tier list in Smash 4 from watching the current meta that I made (again) FOR FUN based off of results and all speculation from footage I've seen (I'm taking into consideration potential of custom moves as well). I've tracked any frame data I could find within the two weeks or so since Japan's release, I've watched every single one of NinjaLink's custom move videos (lol 6+ hours) through his incredible playlist and I've studied nearly everything Nietono and Japan have had to offer as well as East Coast's scene too (imo, the Japanese are leagues ahead of the American scene at the moment and are already starting to understand that an aggressive approach outweighs camping with a large percentage of Smash 4's cast). Can't always play this installation like Brawl, that's for sure - so I'm super excited to see how quickly players can zone in on others in this game.

I'm really excited about this game! At first I was a bit worried about Brawl 2.0 but after watching SHI_GAMING's channel and pretty much just trying to soak everything in before the American release I'm already certain that we'll have a strong and thriving competitive scene. Perhaps even EVO!?! It's like Smash 4 has two dozen or so characters that have the combo ability only a few characters in Brawl possessed (i.e. Metaknight or Peach) but have an even faster moveset/design along w/ the technical capacity for a steep learning curve. Some characters even remind me of their Melee counterpart. Anyways...

Here's my opinion on the current competitive viability of the characters in Smash 4!

TOP

S Tier: 1) 2) 3) (No Specific Order)

A Tier: 4) 5) 6) 7) 8) 9)


HIGH
B Tier: 10) 11) 12) 13) 14) 15) 16) 17)
C Tier: 18)19) 20) 21) 22) 23) 24)


MID
D Tier: 25) 26) 27) 28) 29)30)
E Tier: 31) 32) 33)34)35)36) 37)38)


LOW
F Tier: 39)40)41)42) 43) 44)
G Tier: 45) 46)47)48)49)

Note: I haven't seen Ike ANYWHERE, I've played him for like 30 minutes and I felt as though he was like a completely Brawl copy + paste to this game (which is the only character to receive this) only a bit slower. I'm honestly not too certain on his placement, 44 is just a placeholder to be safe I guess. Also Falco is ridiculously low in hindsight but I don't feel like editing this now cause I'm lazy so use your imagination on where you think he should land.

If you have any questions feel free to ask! I'm not gonna like respond to each small thing but I'll try to back up each claim I have w/ video evidence or personal experience/insight on why I placed a character in a specific spot. As I said before, I feel as though this roster is INCREDIBLY balanced so even though a character may be low it doesn't mean they don't have potential. The game's not even out in America yet lmao this list is kinda ridiculous but whatever just trying to somewhat help / set some kind of standard (albeit it may be super shaky). Also this is what I would consider the tier list to be WITH CUSTOM MOVES. I'm completely aware that not many sets have been uploaded w/ them even in play but as I've stated plenty of times before this is for fun and custom moves are incredibly essential for a even more viable / healthy competitive Smash 4 scene so I thought they deserved to be taken into consideration on this.

Keep in mind, you can give any character on this list a +5/-5 raise or drop on where I feel as though they can move in very short notice of time on this list (perhaps even higher in rank w/ the proper player behind the controller). Again, this game is incredibly balanced compared to how Brawl or Melee felt for me when I first picked it up. Your character is still likely very good/viable and on top of that I'm not saying anything concrete or special here - anyone can make a mock-up tier list!

Thoughts? :3

 

[Hokori]

Er, maybe I'm overlooking something, but was Luigi left out on purpose?

I know some lists do that for fun

 

[DownWitDaWaveDash]

Villager number 1 , ganondorf bottom, all we need

 

[z00ted]

Er, maybe I'm overlooking something, but was Luigi left out on purpose?

Lol, I just added him in. Thanks for catching that

Would have been FUNny though (;

Villager number 1 , ganondorf bottom, all we need

Ganondorf actually gets a huge buff w/ his custom moves!
Check out NinjaLink's vids if you get the chance.

 

[topspin1617]

Absolutely no way Mega Man is last, and for that matter Link shouldn't be that far down.

Though I don't really feel that anyone in this game is terrible, so I have no clue who SHOULD be at the bottom.

 

[TheMasonOrder]

Link is second to last? Didn't he got some good buffs in this game at help him out? Also Captain Falcon is still not good? Just wondering.

 

[z00ted]

Absolutely no way Mega Man is last, and for that matter Link shouldn't be that far down.

Though I don't really feel that anyone in this game is terrible, so I have no clue who SHOULD be at the bottom.

Yeah, I had a real hard time deciding on who should occupy the bottom. At first I thought it was Luigi but watching a bit more videos it didn't seem right. For future reference, give or take like at LEAST five positions on this tier list w/ any character on this list. They could jump around in any direction but I firmly believe that Megaman's one of the worst characters in this game. Sakurai stated in one of the best interviews I've read from him he wanted each newcomer to feel unique and true to their origin in gaming (and he did an excellent job on that without a doubt) but I feel as though Megaman got crippled pretty heavily due to this. His pellets don't pose much of a threat, leaf shield is practically worthless, his projectile game is sub-par (even compared to Link's who also occupies bottom tier imo) and he has close to zero reliable spacing tools on actually approaching his opponent.

I feel like he can be played well EVENTUALLY but until someone truly breaks him down for the moment he's the worst in the release. B-Air is his only reliable kill option and you'll be having to space w/ that move to begin with if you even want to not be rushed-down by your opponent. It's all in the manner of which he moves, he doesn't feel as though he belongs in a Smash game imo but rather a 2D-side scroller like uh, any Mega-Man lol. His U-Air is great but D-Tilt is so linear and his movement in general is as well too that you'll rarely ever have the opportunity to seize an attack like that on someone in the air once they understand your killing options (i.e. U-Air / U-Tilt / U-Smash etc). F-Smash is way too telegraphed to be relied upon and I don't feel as though his offstage game is anywhere near comparable to the rest of the cast, especially when you take into consideration how spot-on in accuracy you have to be to land his D-Air spike or how weak his F-Air is in given knockback. But to really sum all of this up I just think he's too linear and can be telegraphed too easily. That's what keeps him so low - he can't move like every other character and always has this very straightforward approach option (even in the air). We'll see how he develops though!

Link is second to last? Didn't he got some good buffs in this game at help him out? Also Captain Falcon is still not good? Just wondering.

They've both received incredible buffs that will definitely give them viability in the competitive scene I just honestly didn't feel as though they deserved spots higher than any of the characters above them - if that makes any sense... I still feel as though Link and Captain Falcon can DEFINITELY do damage in tournament (take into consideration how quickly Link moves now, his custom move recovery buff + his dash attack kill power etc. on top of Captain Falcon's lagless aerials + Knee and Side-B buff) but I don't see them better than Charizard or Falco (yet)! I think I may be very wrong w/ Captain Falcon though. That guy may be able to do anything come a few weeks after American release.

 

[xLemmy_KoopaX]

Tier lists that early seem pretty inaccurate.
In my personal opinion, from what I've seen,
Link should be way higher than that. Did you see the buffs they gave him? Falcon is great as well. And although DHD is already High, DHD looks way better as well, Little Mac should be higher, at least according to what I've seen from a skilled player, and Greninja doesn't seem S material at all.

In fact, we all might be wrong right now. Let's wait until the game is out, then test it for a few months and then we can make a tier list. The things we say now might mean literally nothing in the future.

 

[Reila]

Isn't Duck Hunt supposed to be one of the top characters so far?

 

[z00ted]

In fact, we all might be wrong right now. Let's wait until the game is out, then test it for a few months and then we can make a tier list. The things we say now might mean literally nothing in the future.

Nah, I'm right (lol jk). But yeah - I get that and I totally agree!! This is just a thread for people who are confident enough in their speculation can come and keep things civil in talking about why they feel as though their character is viable. It's just to tide things over until that first tier list is released (one has to come eventually!) or whatever, give people who want to come forth a chance to speak without feeling as though they'll be instantly shot down.

Isn't Duck Hunt supposed to be one of the top characters so far?

Yeah, I think he's great! However he can be rushed-down pretty hard vs. certain characters above him and his setups/killpower aren't always reliable or quick enough to keep him exactly where he would always need to be. Among other things... I could explain more or go into further detail but this video should explain the rest:

 

[kataridragon]

I've only played the demo so far and seen some streams. I'll give my 2 cents on what I know.

Mario is the best in the demo. I expect him to be a high mid tier.
Sonic has seen some great buffs I'm thinking at least a low high tier.
Little Mac is a low high tier.
Link is a low mid.
Megaman is low.
Bowser jr is a high.
Villager is kind of an unknown to me. At least a mid.
Pikachu is a mid.
Samus has seen a huge buff. I'm thinking higher in the list.
Mk is probably still up there but not OP.
Dhd is the best projectile user.

 

[Niala]

Aw Falco bby why? What happened to you?

Also why is it:

D Tier:
E Tier:

F Tier:
E Tier: ????

I assume that's a typo?

 

[LudwigKoopa]

Capt Falcon is waaay higher than that. Watch Zero play with him and you'll know.

 

[z00ted]

I've seen Zero play w/ Falcon and I still think he's a great character lol this is just where I felt where he should land for now. He doesn't have much of a safe approaching option other than crossing up B-Air on shield or U-Airs which have a weirder hitbox now than in previous installments. I think his tilt-game is pretty good though and I agree he could be waaaayy higher, but not too sure if he'll ever leave low.

 

[LudwigKoopa]

At this point in time, the characters all look well balanced. If any tiers are made, I think only 3 are necessary. 8 is very specific this early, but it's all in good fun.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This is a tenative tier list I made up for funsies after I got the game. Characters are ordered alphabetically within their tier except Marth being a better character than Lucina

1: Diddy Kong, Fox, Lucario, Sonic, ZSS
2: Bowser, Falcon, DHD, Greninja, Little Mac, Ness, Rosalina, Sheik, Shulk, Yoshi
3: Falco, DDD, MK, Pac-Man, Samus, Toon Link, Wario
4: DK, Kirby, Marth > Lucina, ROB, Robin
5: Charizard, Ike, Link, Mega Man, Peach, Villager, WFT, Zelda
6: Doc, Ganon, Luigi, Mario

No comment: Bowser Jr., [Dark] Pit, Jiggs, Mii, G&W, Palutena, Pikachu, Olimar;

 

[z00ted]

WOW lmao I knew there was something "off" about Luigi for sure but you think MARIO's one of the worst!?!

How come? (Btw hi Gheb ^^, it's nice seeing you around here again lol i haven't been on smashboards in like a year as far as posting about anything competitive goes).

Also that's a pretty interesting top tier you got going there.
Diddy, Falcon and Fox that high is crazy.

 

[SmashBro99]

Based on what I have seen on streams (watched alot) and demo which I've played alot

Characters that seem really good

Characters that seem like they have potential to be really good

Demo hype tier:

Characters I think won't be too great

yes he's a beast on the ground, but his horrible recovery is really gonna screw him when people learn this game I think. I like the character but I think he will wreck some matchups but get destroyed by most of them.

maybe I just haven't seen a good player yet, but she seems to have lag on so many moves...I think any character that can get to her will just punch her face in.

god i hope i'm wrong.

sadly he's still slow and junk, but some moves are sped up and have different properties, i really hope he will be good. I think all heavyweights will be pretty good in this game.

I can be more specific when I have the full game in my hands of course.

 

[z00ted]

LOL demo hype tier for best tier.

 

[AttackstorM]

Can you explain how you came to the conclusion of lucario being top? I've been evaluating him and seeing if I might want to use him... @Illmatic

 

[z00ted]

Can you explain how you came to the conclusion of lucario being top? I've been evaluating him and seeing if I might want to use him... @Illmatic

I'll quote my homie Shaya on this one. Who basically expressed everything I was thinking but a lot more eloquently and Shaya-ish. This dude's the truth so prepare for the real:

In terms of character abilities, I'm going to put it out there, but Lucario is likely the best character in this game (in the "you know kinda like Snake was seen as the best at the start of Brawl"; unbelievably bonkers at a base level - who knows if it'll stick, but I think he's a shoe in for top 5, at least without customs).
He could end up faltering in match ups, considering the amount of shines/reflectors/absorbs we have going, and custom specials have unforeseen consequences as well.

But Lucario at 100%+ is a god. An absolute god. I feel like he's been straight buffed from Brawl by being given a normalisation/foxilisation (like yoshi/bowser/etc) but also comes with the stupidest implementation of a mechanic I think I've ever seen in Aura (gliding and jump cancelled shines please, SSF2T Akuma is jealous). His weaknesses from Brawl in his recovery are basically subverted with the elongated and honestly bizarre Up-B size at mid+ percent, and his preference/strength of not dying has been heavily solidified with the game's engine.

All hail sheik and stuff yeah yeah... but... the aura.... I'm so upset. Like super upset at how dumb he is. He only lost to two characters in Brawl IMO... one due to dedede having extra strong mittens for grabbing da aura and the other due to meta knight being meta knight. Considering the amount of times that Lucarios have made M2K cry in Brawl, it really wasn't seen to me as a character which needed significant tweaking/reworking/insane buffing.

We'll see how things go, it's strange I haven't seen him beyond streams/friendlies/lolfi thus far.
I would probably take the option of handicapping myself in matches to 100%+ with Lucario (this won't ever happen, hypothetical) over giving my opponent more opportunity to win by time out, because you aren't beating this character fighting him once he's over 100%, lol; so you should just hit him to it (because he probably wants you to) and then run away. RUN AWAY AND NEVER LOOK BACK

A straight god, he says. An absolute god.
Also there's this (shoutout to Trela) :

 

[Raijinken]

Can you explain how you came to the conclusion of lucario being top? I've been evaluating him and seeing if I might want to use him... @Illmatic

A combination of the Rage mechanic and the buffs his aura got (especially in helping Extremespeed's range) and whatnot make him seem like a vastly improved character. By no means do I agree with putting him at the top of the list, but he's definitely got the kill power. Saw him kill a Sheik (I think it was a Sheik) at 100% yesterday off the side, which ain't bad when your aura isn't even that high.

A couple details I would like to contribute:
Perhaps it's his newcomer hype, but I've seen far more (and more successful) Bowser Jr. than Wario. He's got the kill moves, the mobility, the weight, and ways to harass at a distance, to boot.

I used to agree with everyone saying Megaman's the worst character, but I'm not convinced any more. While any matchups against characters with reflectors will absolutely suck, he's got a pretty reliable zoning game against other characters. Probably very matchup-focused.

Little Mac seems the most underrated here. While I've little doubt he'll get weaker as more people learn to play, he still has a very dominant ground game, especially playing in For Glory where you don't have to worry about platforms.

While Link definitely got improved, he's still rather susceptible to a lot of the same tricks. His spike isn't as easy to land as some (since it requires a hilt hit or near it, making him easy to out-range), and his new dash attack, while great as a kill punish, is actually pretty easy to intercept for the first half, and has a lot of endlag.

 

[evmaxy54]

If my girl Zelduh gets anywhere near #40 in a proper tier list I'll take it with a smile on my face.
I can't really argue against much on this at all (out of the characters that I've seen anyways).

 

[The_Altrox]

I'm impressed. Many forums would tear a list apart this early in the game. But it's pretty civil here. Props.

My opinions on this list:

S Tier: idk about Greninja and Lucario, but looks solid. She's pretty aggressive. Top tier? idk, but she looks damn good.

A tier: has so much potential. idk if I'd rank her this high yet though. looks demonic. I haven't seen any Sonic yet, so somebody link me. and both look like they have well rounded attributes, though Palutena may be one trick. is sexy as hell in this game.

B Tier: looks good still, but not too good. looks better as well. is riddled with potential to be great.

C tier: is that good? looks like he can be top tier if people master his projectiles.

D Tier: looks really good, especially with a jab that grounds foes. Figured would be higher with his buffed recovery. Marth and Lucina can't cut it?

E tier: 's banana game won't work? Also, ? He has a crippled recovery, but his ground game looks like it can trump most of the roster at this rate. I'd put him higher.

F Tier: that low? Honestly, looks like he belongs here. Poor guy still has a crappy recovery, and while he beasts the ground, he's not as fast as Mac. has always been awkward as hell... Why does she still fall dead after Din's Fire?

G tier: I refuse to believe Falco is this low. Has always worked in every game he's in, especially with boosted recovery. I would assume Megaman would be low. Too projectile centric imo w/o much of a physical game to fight characters that reflect things.

EDIT: Also, looks awful low. They found a 0 to death combo against computers with him. That ranged fair and strong recovery may make him a contender.

 

[Jerm]

Zero and M2K have been saying Rosalina for number 1, and I can see why. When Luma is out, Rosalina is pretty much immune to both projectiles and grabs. Luma acts as a shield and eats up any projectiles and gimps you if you try to grab Rosalina. Luma can also punish you for trying to punish Rosalina. And I personally think Megaman is indeed awful, bottom of the bottom. 3 of his attacks consists of his useless pellets, a lot of his attacks have way too much startup/end lag (fsmash and dtilt respectively), and he just struggles to kill and is almost completely shut down by characters that reflect projectiles which is like 80% of his entire moveset.

 

[Staphf]

CF Should Be either S or A Tier
DHD Needs to be Higher
Sonic Needs to be Higher

 

[g3cci]

Idk I think while there will obviously be a tier list, the distinctions between tiers won't be as big. Almost all the characters seem viable for tournaments with some exceptions.
I think a lot of SSB4 is going to be mind games and strategy over sheer character advantage.

 

[Ursaguy]

From what I've seen so far, this is the most balanced fighting game ever created. I think Bowser and Sheik at top tier are fair, and then there could just be a 30 character mid tier and a leftover bottom tier.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

While I don't know enough about each character I do want to make a few comments on some characters:

- High mid tier at worst. Aside from two of his aerials suffering from high landing lag Captain Falcon is a very flexible character that has a lot of ways to adapt and react, he has so many great attacks that are just made for combos. There's nothing terrible about him either outside of the little landing lag issue, he's not great at recovering but not terrible either.

- Forget Brawldorf guys, he might look the same, but I assure that he isn't. Ganondorf has received notable buffs, and at the same time the game itself has shifted focus to favor him. Ganondorf's U-Air, B-Air, F-Tilt, D-Tilt and F-Smash have all received speed buffs and thus are his best attacks. At the same time he has received a lot of damage buffs too. That's just one thing though, cause the most important thing is that while everyone KOs people in the 100%-150% range in this game, Ganondorf can do it as early as 70%-90%. Ganondorf's knockback is ****ing ridiculous, his U-Smash KOd Wario at 74% in one of Shofu's videos, his F-Smash can KO everyone on the edge of FD at 80-90%. Punishing is more important than ever in this game, and Ganondorf is the best at that in the entire game. Still, he still has his speed problems, and his recovery is also still pretty lame, so while he's nowhere near as bad as Brawldorf he should be mid tier at least.

- Once people learn to properly predict his projectiles DHD is going to suffer a lot, his Down-B and Side-B are both rather slow and can both be broken, thus aren't going to be great tools once people can adapt to them. He's still a good character, but not top tier.

- This beast is underrated, Dedede is a top tier candidate. His D-Throw is a guaranteed combo setup, he has tons of range, he's got decent speed and a lot of power, and he has possibly the best and most unpredictable projectile in the game, the Gordo has infinite uses. People really need to open their eyes for this character.

- High tier, it's not really debatable. All of her aerials are godlike, Pound is a shield breaker, and you can combo into Rest or simply do it out of shield. I don't think she's top tier since she isn't quite up to her Melee power, but at least high tier.

- Mid tier incarnate, he's got a lot of good things but also notable drawbacks, at the moment I wouldn't put him anywhere else.

- Ike is the worst character in the game by a very long shot, and I absolutely hate to say that, but that's how it is. Everyone around him has been buffed while Ike has actually been nerfed, meanwhile they have not adapted him properly to the new game at all. He kills people at the terrible 110%-130%, no earlier than the likes of Mario who are much faster than him and much better at racking up percentages. At the same time his recovery is absolutely dreadful, with the ledge nerfs it's become harder for him to recover than ever, it's now much easier to gimp him or body-block his Side-B. Ike is a case of a character that seemingly wasn't prioritized very highly and thus has been left behind, it's clear that they have not put very much work into adapting him to the new game at all. I love Ike, I'm going to partially main him no matter what, but I can't deny how terrible he is. I saw someone bring up an excellent point, why play Ike instead of Bowser? There is no reason from a competitive standpoint, Bowser is better than Ike at everything.

Otherwise I don't have many unique things to say, Sheik is top tier, I'm not sure if Bowser is going to stay there but with the current "meta" he's definitely up there. People should wait quite some time before rating Rosalina, her meta is going to evolve a lot every week, both for the better and the worse.

 

[smartguyc1089]

hahahaha somebody said megaman was bottom.
he has a bad matchup against characters with reflectors, but thats it.

 

[Contrary]

I can see most of the top tier being somewhat accurate, but could likely fit in there. My personal opinion of a potential top 5 from what I've seen (in no particular order) would be something like :


have both been buffed considerably and could be higher on the list, and I'd put higher as well.

 

[A2ZOMG]

WOW lmao I knew there was something "off" about Luigi for sure but you think MARIO's one of the worst!?!

Listen to a Brawl Mario main who tried everything to advance Mario's metagame and prove he was mid tier. Mario is bad and was NERFED more than he was BUFFED.

His combo game isn't reliable (U-tilt/U-air chains can be interrupted or jumped out of), and actually does LESS DAMAGE in this game. He still has short range, his projectile doesn't actually solve that, and he can't kill as early as other characters.

He lost options like Cape Stalling and Jab cancel combos. And his recovery is still short enough that if you hit him out of his midair jump, he is unlikely to make it back. And again, the loss of Cape stalling REALLY hurts his recovery.

Overall Mario actually gets less reward for getting in than he did in previous games, and he still has to work hard to deal with his low range. He's also more vulnerable to edgeguarding and juggle traps in this game due to nerfs to Cape. The only thing that saves Mario somewhat is that practically everyone got nerfed in this game, but the fact Mario's options to escape traps got directly nerfed and the fact he lost options to pressure in close range means he's one of the worst characters in this game.

To add insult to injury, Mario's F-air finally is rewarding to land. Except ground bounce mechanics causing meteors to be techable ON THE GROUND means it's still mostly worthless outside of rare gimmick edgeguards.

 

[Gidy]

I always believed in tier lists except for Project M, as the meta is still a baby and it's constantly changing. But with Smash 4 I don't think any character is "bad" besides Ganondorf as he's just his Brawl counter party with a useless aerial on the ground that auto cancels.

You can speculate all you want, but I think I'm gonna turn in to one of those people that doesn't believe in tier lists.

 

[Super_Queijo]

Well, I haven'g seen as much gameplay as some of you, but I did watch some tourneys, and I think results should come before subjective analysis like "Mega Man sucks cuz of projectiles". I have seen Mega Man, Little Mac, Villager, Sheik, Ness, Diddy Kong, ROB and Rosalinda in finals of some tourneys so they, right now, should be at least B tier based on data we have right now.

 

[WhiteCane]

S tier and A tier should both 5 or 6 seeing how this game has close to 50 regular characters. (not counting mii's sadly)

I feel Link, and Zelda deserve to be around the middle somewhere, I hope Little Mac will be used in tournaments he just needs one stage that works in his favor.

 

[King Zekrom]

I've only thought of a tier list for the demo: , , ,,
I'll probs create a full tier list when the game releases overseas.

 

[DougX]

Come on, man... You know Luigi is not that low. c:

 

[ferioku]

This tier list doesn't look right... Like at all =/. I also don't understand how Kirby is all the way down there o.o

 

[Cerberus290]

Why is Link so far at the bottom? He's felt really good to me so far in this game. And shouldn't the mii's be in separate categories? So far Brawler has seemed to be much better than the other 2 versions.

 

[z00ted]

There's some seriously good responses in here that I've learned from and no-one's arguing, wow.
Thanks for the feedback guys. I think this list is better to look at as a whole in judging how "accurate" it is rather than pinpointing one or two characters and flipping out. And no-one has even gone crazy regarding that yet so cool.

Getting a lot of insight on Falcon and Mario that I'm starting to agree w/ alongside Ike. It's funny how I immediately felt as though he was nerfed severely in this game and two or so people have already backed me up on that even though I took a wild guess.

@ ferioku and anyone who has questions regarding why a character is so low, I've likely already stated the answer here in this thread so I'm not gonna repeat posts. But I'll add in that I feel like there's no real "low-tier" in this game aside from maybe Ike and Megaman. From what I've seen everyone's at least mid in competitive viability, while characters here at top of mid have the same shot as likely the tier list v7 top 12 in Brawl or something.