Social Smash 4 Social Topic 2.0

[JamesDNaux]

One, we don't know exactly that they are cut.
We're just jumping to conclusions like always.

Two, yes he isn't.
He's one of them. The others being Squirtle and Ivysaur. PKMN Trainer was just to batch them all up.

The point of the Pokemon Trainer was, you know, to play as the Pokemon Trainer, the guy who catches and commands the Pokemon, who uses a team rather than just a single Pokemon, and that's ruined now.

Don't know that they're cut? I'm not delusional enough to try to think otherwise, we aren't getting that many of them, especially now that they're separate.

 

[Spazzy_D]

I really don't see why people are saying it's either Jiggly puff or Mewtwo. Six Pokémon reps is one of the most reasonable roster moves out there.

I also think that Pokémon trainer was cut because of 3DS limitations. Sakurai SAID that some characters would be limited, what else do you think he was talking about?

 

[mimgrim]

Jiggs is in the most danger, granted, but why not 6 reps? Brawl had six.

Pikachu, Jiggs, Lucario, PK Trainer (+3).

I'm pretty sure P Trainer was supposed to count as 1, like other transformations (Zelda/Sheki were never counter as 2 reps neither were Samus/Zamus). I also don't see Zelda getting a new character now the Sheik has her own slot and now Metroid officially has 2 reps. So yea, I only see one more Poke rep happening. 6 could happen, I just don;t see it happening.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

I really don't see why people are saying it's either Jiggly puff or Mewtwo. Six Pokémon reps is one of the most reasonable roster moves out there.

No it isn't! No franchise needs more reps than Mario, but can match numbers at the very least

 

[Spazzy_D]

No it isn't! No franchise needs more reps than Mario, but can match numbers at the very least

So if Mario got one more rep, it would be okay for Pokémon to have 6?

 

[Mr.Universe]

We're not getting a playable grass starter, Charizard and Greninja weren't chosen for their types. We have 2 poke slots left and those are undoubtedly for Jiggs and Mewtwo. Honestly whoever thinks we aren't getting them when Sakurai expressed interest in Mewtwo and Jiggs is a staple is cray. Imo if Sakurai cared enough to keep Zamus, he's not getting rid of one of the originals.

Also regarding the Namco items, I think it works against Pacman. I mean you wouldn't expect items from another Capcom franchise because Megaman is in. But I guess Pacman could not be a Pacman rep and just be a Namco rep, and they could all be reps of Namco.

 

[Substitution]

The point of the Pokemon Trainer was, you know, to play as the Pokemon Trainer, the guy who catches and commands the Pokemon, who uses a team rather than just a single Pokemon, and that's ruined now.

Look, I'm just as mad as you are.
But that doesn't mean they're ruined forever.

Don't know that they're cut? I'm not delusional enough to try to think otherwise, we aren't getting that many of them, especially now that they're separate.

Look, call me in denial.
But I think there's still a chance.
So yes, call me delusional.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Wait, so you don't want more Pokémon reps then Mario Reps? Not sure what you are saying.

Sorry misread you. So if Mario got one more rep, it would be okay for Pokémon to have 6?

Pokemon reps can either have the same amount as Mario, or they can stay less than Mario reps.

 

[mimgrim]

We're not getting a playable grass starter, Charizard and Greninja weren't chosen for their types. We have 2 poke slots left and those are undoubtedly for Jiggs and Mewtwo. Honestly whoever thinks we aren't getting them when Sakurai expressed interest in Mewtwo and Jiggs is a staple is cray. Imo if Sakurai cared enough to keep Zamus, he's not getting rid of one of the originals.

And if you are wrong?

 

[Substitution]

Pokemon reps can either have the same amount as Mario, or they can stay less than Mario reps.

But isn't Pokemon just as big as Mario?
Heck, they already had more reps in Brawl (Pokemon had 6 compared to Mario who had 4).

 

[Spazzy_D]

Mario also has SOOOOO much rep in the game as far as items go, and characters like Yoshi and Wario are tied to the hip with Mario. Also, there actually isn't a rule that says Mario should have the most reps in the game. If you count Pokémon Trainers Pokémon as separate characters Pokémon already had more characters then Mario in Brawl.

 

[PlayerOneTyler]

I just realized the three confirmed Pokemon (other than Pikachu) were all three in my party for X. Greninja was my starter, Charizard was my first gen starter, and I kept Lucario from Korrina. I feel like this time they're shooting for Pokemon that played a very prominent role in the sixth generation, and both Mewtwo and Jigglypuff fit the bill: Mewtwo has two Mega Evolutions (like Charizard), and Jigglypuff sports the new Fairy type. Just my two cents.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Look, I'm just as mad as you are.
But that doesn't mean they're ruined forever.
Look, call me in denial.
But I think there's still a chance.
So yes, call me delusional.

A lot of characters are ruined forever for me, unless they decide to suddenly put transformation characters back where they belong and fix Olimar, which I doubt.
Still a chance, we keep saying that until we can't say it anymore, then it just becomes "oh, it was inevitable." I don't want them to return now unless this is some fake-out and the Trainer comes back with the three sharing a slot again, if Pokemon goes over five this time I'll be even more pissed off.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

But isn't Pokemon just as big as Mario?

Bigger actually, when you consider that Pokemon is an enormous multimedia juggernaut. What with successful games, a popular and long-running TV show, a card game(not sure about how popular this one is, but it's been going strong for over a decade), and numerous toys and manga adaptations.

Edit: Not to mention the Pokemon cast is freakin' enormous as well.

 

[Wario Bros.]

Just curious, how do we know for sure that Ivysaur & Squirtle have been cut? Yes, Pokémon Trainer is no more but I don't think that concludes on Ivysaur & Squirtle just yet.

 

[Substitution]

A lot of characters are ruined forever for me, unless they decide to suddenly put transformation characters back where they belong and fix Olimar, which I doubt.

While I'll admit the nerfing him down to three Pikmin was stupid.
At least now he has some form of a recovery. Fixing one of his biggest issues.

Still a chance, we keep saying that until we can't say it anymore, then it just becomes "oh, it was inevitable." I don't want them to return now unless this is some fake-out and the Trainer comes back with the three sharing a slot again, if Pokemon goes over five this time I'll be even more pissed off.

Honestly, and as cliche as I'll come off.
There's really nothing we can do. Hopefully that will be the case (it's not like they can't. Sure, we can't switch, but they can still have Pokemon Trainer out), but for right now that's all we can do, hope.
We'll just have to wait it out and see, that's our only option as of right now.

 

[mimgrim]

But isn't Pokemon just as big as Mario?
Heck, they already had more reps in Brawl (Pokemon had 6 compared to Mario who had 4).

I would argue Pokemon only had 4 reps in Brawl. :L

 

[Wario Bros.]

In other news, "The Ultimate Update" patch is available for PSASBR.

 

[8-peacock-8]

In other news, "The Ultimate Update" patch is available for PSASBR.

I love how that and Fulgore (Killer Instinct) came out on the day of the Smash direct.

 

[Wario Bros.]

I love how that and Fulgore (Killer Instinct) came out on the day of the Smash direct.

Trying to intentionally steal some of the spotlight, perhaps?

 

[8-peacock-8]

Trying to intentionally steal some of the spotlight, perhaps?

Or just bad timing.

If only Nintendo was able to keep Killer Instinct. Then i wouldn't feel so torn. (AndFulgorewould'vebeeninSmash)

 

[Pacack]

I honestly was hoping for Non-Pac-Man Namco items to appear along with him, so I don't see this as a negative thing against him at all.

 

[8-peacock-8]

I honestly was hoping for Non-Pac-Man Namco items to appear along with him, so I don't see this as a negative thing against him at all.

Well they are so.... Pac-Man is coming!

 

[kackamee]

I wonder/hope if Sakurai would change For Glory to feature Battlefield-esque stages as well. I've been reading of some people saying it could still be a possibility after the games release, but I'm doubtful of that. I think if it's not in by release, they wouldn't make new battlefield stages/textures to implement through DLC. If they do, that's great, but I hope enough people bring to his attention that we want more than FD before release.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Wow... I'm actually more annoyed with all the complaining about the Pokemon than I am about Ridley...

In regards to Greninja: OH NO GUYS! We got one of the most popular Pokemon this gen and the most popular final evolved starter since Blaziken... HOW... ABSOLUTELY... TERRIBLE... I'm currently drinking a microwaved coffee cup of laundry detergent because I can't handle this...

In regards to Pokemon Trainer: I feel like it was a necessary cut. Programming wise, Pokemon Trainer was actually 4 characters in one (yes, "Red" had programming too) and Sakurai mentioned that if anyone was cut it would most likely be due to technical reasons. Both games run at 60 FPS which is pretty impressive and all the transformation characters were a drag on this in Brawl. PT's problems were made worse because switching was forced if you died and pretty much necessary in match because of the stamina mechanic. They dumped three characters to program and kept the one that was by far the most popular. This was a decent trade off in the grand scheme of things and I don't doubt Sakurai looked into a number of options before coming to this conclusion.

In regards to the changes made to Olimar/ZSS/Sheik: Again, I feel like these were due to the limitations of the 3DS but fans should actually be ecstatic about these changes because it shows that Sakurai has a much different approach to considering characters this time around. In Brawl, characters were largely cut because they ran out of time to add them. With this game, Sakurai is going out of his way to make sure as many veterans come back as possible. ZSS/Sheik could have easily been cut. It would have been two less characters to program but instead he chose to keep them in to appease their fans. Olimar probably has 3 pikmin instead of 6 to help keep the 60 FPS smooth but, again, he chose to not just simply say "screw it" and found a way around it, just like he promised back in August. The only "technical" veteran left is the Ice Climbers and you can bet that they'll be coming back. Like these three characters, they might be different but Sakurai is definitely going out of his way to make sure that they stay in.

In regards to Mewtwo: The Pokemon roster currently stands at 4 and Brawl technically had 6. We just lost two first gen reps when Brawl had 5 so we're now down to 2 in the starting roster. If Jiggs and Mewtwo come back, it'd still be one less than Brawl. Also, notice the HUGE emphasis on Mega Evolutions this time around. Who was the first Mega Evolution shown? Who has an entire movie dedicated to them? Who is one of the ONLY TWO POKEMON who got two Mega Evolutions? Who is the most wanted character AROUND THE WORLD and has been one of the most popular Pokemon for ALMOST 20 YEARS? Holy crap... and there's actually people B'AAAAAAAAAAAAW-ing right now because Mewtwo was "totally disconfirmed" because Gredinja was in yesterdays' trailer... I mean... c'mon... seriously?

I have a lot of thoughts on other characters too that I'll share later. The bottom line is that I think Smash fans should be very optimistic about how this roster is going to turn out and that this Direct actually put a lot of concerns I had about a number of veterans to bed.

 

[mimgrim]

Honestly. I would rather have no Olimar then Olimar with only 3 Pikmin. this is due to the fact that he is my main in Brawl. 3 Pikmin is not enough for me. not in any way shape or form. So I won;t be touching him with a 10 foot pole.

As for Mewtwo. I would never say he is deconfirmed, as he isn't. But I just don't see him getting back in at this point now, call it a gut feeling if you will. I could easily be wrong though.

Getting rid of transformations was a good thing though.

As for roster. I really don't care about what happends to it at this point. I'm more interested in the gameplay and what the new characters shown will actually play like, and how tweaks to the veterans will affect them.

 

[MSmariosonic]

I can't wait untill I have my hands on SSB4. It's online is something I really need. Finally no more taunt matches, no more ganging up, no more idle players....

 

[kackamee]

Honestly. I would rather have no Olimar then Olimar with only 3 Pikmin. this is due to the fact that he is my main in Brawl. 3 Pikmin is not enough for me. not in any way shape or form. So I won;t be touching him with a 10 foot pole.

I'm reserving my opinion for when I play him, and I think most people should. I have faith in Sakurai, he's made three great games so far with fun characters and I think Olimar deserves a chance at the very least.

 

[Sehnsucht]

I used Olimar a lot in Brawl, and I'm digging the changes that are being made to him. They've sacrificed the number of Pikmin in exchange for a superior recovery and a fixed plucking order (which all leads to better strategic options).

Then again, I only ever played at a casual level. So I can understand if those more adept with Olimar (and in Smash generally) would be skeptical about these alterations.

 

[Pazzo.]

I used Olimar a lot in Brawl, and I'm digging the changes that are being made to him. They've sacrificed the number of Pikmin in exchange for a superior recovery and a fixed plucking order (which all leads to better strategic options).

Then again, I only ever played at a casual level. So I can understand if those more adept with Olimar (and in Smash generally) would be skeptical about these alterations.

Maybe the Pikmin are more powerful? That would balance out the limited number...

 

[Sehnsucht]

Maybe the Pikmin are more powerful? That would balance out the limited number...

Possibly. Hard to say by just looking at the screen, especially without damage counters.

I also wonder why they didn't throw in Rock Pikmin, seeing as they put in the Flying ones. Maybe you could have had a 1/25 chance that you'd pluck a Rock Pikmin instead of a Purple Pikmin. Then again, it seems that they're trying to remove as many random or chance-based elements from gameplay (which seems a reasonable approach).

In such a case, maybe the Rock Pikmin would instead make for a neat little Pikmin item (like a Bonsly replacement).

 

[Substitution]

In regards to Pokemon Trainer: I feel like it was a necessary cut. Programming wise, Pokemon Trainer was actually 4 characters in one (yes, "Red" had programming too) and Sakurai mentioned that if anyone was cut it would most likely be due to technical reasons. Both games run at 60 FPS which is pretty impressive and all the transformation characters were a drag on this in Brawl. PT's problems were made worse because switching was forced if you died and pretty much necessary in match because of the stamina mechanic. They dumped three characters to program and kept the one that was by far the most popular. This was a decent trade off in the grand scheme of things and I don't doubt Sakurai looked into a number of options before coming to this conclusion.

Here's the thing.
Sure, he had issues, but I never wanted him gone. I wanted him fixed.
He could've worked, he was just a great character brought down by questionable design choices.

And even if the 3DS' limitations are to blame, I still think they should've kept the three.
Just simply pick the one you want before the match, it's not terribly hard.
Now granted, I'm not a game maker. Maybe there was an issue.
But for right now IMHO it was questionable at best.

 

[Pazzo.]

In regards to PK Trainer, I'm a little sad to see him go, but the changes to the game are for the best. Transforming Characters were a good idea, but they did have their problems. I've heard far too many Skiek/Zelda players complain about the transformation, same with Samus' Z-Laser.

 

[mimgrim]

Maybe the Pikmin are more powerful? That would balance out the limited number...

Not really. Project M does the same thing with Olimar, 4 instead of 3 though, and made the individual Pikmin stronger. Isn't enough to compensate for me. I would much rather have 6 weak Pikmin then 3 strong ones.

I used Olimar a lot in Brawl, and I'm digging the changes that are being made to him. They've sacrificed the number of Pikmin in exchange for a superior recovery and a fixed plucking order (which all leads to better strategic options).

Then again, I only ever played at a casual level. So I can understand if those more adept with Olimar (and in Smash generally) would be skeptical about these alterations.

I would rather have more Pikmin then the latter 2. I don't see Olimar being that much better then he is in Project M. Not enough Pikmin for me.

I'm reserving my opinion for when I play him, and I think most people should. I have faith in Sakurai, he's made three great games so far with fun characters and I think Olimar deserves a chance at the very least.

I have faith he makes, and will make, good games. I don't have faith in all of his character gameplay decisions though.

 

[Pazzo.]

Not really. Project M does the same thing with Olimar, 4 instead of 3 though, and made the individual Pikmin stronger. Isn't enough to compensate for me. I would much rather have 6 weak Pikmin then 3 strong ones.



I would rather have more Pikmin then the latter 2. I don't see Olimar being that much better then he is in Project M. Not enough Pikmin for me.



I have faith he makes, and will make, good games. I don't have faith in all of his character gameplay decisions though.

So... why would you rather have 6 weak ones? I'm just curious, I've never played Olimar competitively.

 

[Frostwraith]

Ivysaur and Squirtle are not out yet. Transforming characters are gone, but both Zelda and Sheik return, same for Samus and ZSS. It's entirely possible for Ivysaur and Squirtle to return as separate characters. Will it happen? I have no idea, but assuming Charizard being standalone means Squirtle and Ivysaur are gone is insane logic, especially when you consider how Sheik and ZSS returned despite transformations being gone.

Also, there's no such thing as "rep caps". Considering how big the Pokémon series is, it's entirely plausible to have all six Pokémon from Brawl to return plus have Greninja as the newcomer and Mewtwo return. Mario has 5 characters, Zelda has 4 confirmed so far, but considering how likely Ganondorf is to return, I can almost assume 5 Zelda characters will be around too.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Ivysaur and Squirtle are not out yet. Transforming characters are gone, but both Zelda and Sheik return, same for Samus and ZSS. It's entirely possible for Ivysaur and Squirtle to return as separate characters. Will it happen? I have no idea, but assuming Charizard being standalone means Squirtle and Ivysaur are gone is insane logic, especially when you consider how Sheik and ZSS returned despite transformations being gone.

Also, there's no such thing as "rep caps". Considering how big the Pokémon series is, it's entirely plausible to have all six Pokémon from Brawl to return plus have Greninja as the newcomer and Mewtwo return. Mario has 5 characters, Zelda has 4 confirmed so far, but considering how likely Ganondorf is to return, I can almost assume 5 Zelda characters will be around too.

You are a very smart European dude. Ýou should make profit with it. Tried being a scientist?

 

[Substitution]

So... why would you rather have 6 weak ones? I'm just curious, I've never played Olimar competitively.

I'm gonna assume power.
Olimar had one of the best ground games in Brawl. And having only three Pikmin did hurt a bit of that (mostly in the projectile category).

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Mewtwo IS coming back. They wouldn't just attempt to put him in Brawl and then skip out on him in this. That'd be a stupid move. AND he's become another center of attention again.

Betting he's unlockable.

 

[mimgrim]

So... why would you rather have 6 weak ones? I'm just curious, I've never played Olimar competitively.

Because Olimar is, quite literally, nothing without his Pikmin. He can't grab without them. He can't preform a Smash without them. He can only do Tilts, Jab, and Nair without them. He uses them as a projectile. 6 weak Pikmin > 3 strong ones. By far. Olimar's gameplay is literally defined by Pikmin.

Also, there's no such thing as "rep caps". Considering how big the Pokémon series is, it's entirely plausible to have all six Pokémon from Brawl to return plus have Greninja as the newcomer and Mewtwo return. Mario has 5 characters, Zelda has 4 confirmed so far, but considering how likely Ganondorf is to return, I can almost assume 5 Zelda characters will be around too.

While I agree there isn't such a thing as rep caps. I just have a gut feeling Pokemon, or any other ones, won't be getting more then 5. It could easily happen and get more, I just don't see it happening this time around. Sometime I just gotta go with the gut rather then my mind. Same reason why I don't see Mewtwo coming back, it's just a gut feeling I have.