Smash Wii U [Sm4sh Mods] (Unofficial) Patch 1.1.7: The Fan Patch [Discontinued. See Updated Thread for details]

[Deleted member]

I honestly would not use anything from melee, it is probably one of the worst balanced games in the smash series (Bar 64) and honestly it's style of play is outdated. Smash has moved on from all aggro super combo brothers and has become a much more diverse game where you have more than just four characters to worry about.

If anything we should be using Brawl as an example and in limited situations even Project M serves as a better example of balance the Melee

You're clearly a casual gamer who plays Mario Party 10 and has a 10.00% win streak on For Glory, aren't you?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Actually, Falco is a pheasant...

Actually, you're wrong.

He's a red throated caracar, which is a breed of falcon (go figure).

You're welcome.

 

[Derpnaster]

You're clearly a casual gamer who plays Mario Party 10 and has a 10.00% win streak on For Glory, aren't you?

No I'm a competitive player who has gone toe to toe with top 40 players in the state of Utah and given them all good fights.

Edit

Now then can we get back to the main topic here rather than attacking people for OPINIONS based upon observations that they have made.
Thank you.

Now then I just had an Idea, What if we had a character of the week sort of deal, or even two or three.
Then we focus on those characters and determine
A) if changing them would push us closer to a balanced game
B) if changing them would in any way alienate a group of players, we don't want that
C) if they really need changes
D) if those changes should be buffs or nerfs.

Then we list changes and discuss them in a civil manner and provide constructive feedback that is tightly focused on the topic at hand.

What do y'all think? Could that work?

 

[Deleted member]

No I'm a competitive player who has gone toe to toe with top 40 players in the state of Utah and given them all good fights.

Name em'. Also, they have to be real players, not just the "best kid on the block".

 

[Bowserboy3]

Name em'. Also, they have to be real players, not just the "best kid on the block".

Is this even necessary? What has this got to do with balancing characters? Take this to a PM or something...

 

[Deleted member]

Is this even necessary? What has this got to do with balancing characters? Take this to a PM or something...

In keeping with this thread's policy, note that I am, in fact, balancing their character.

#BalancetheScales
#Wordplay

 

[ZeusLink]

Wot wordplay?

 

[Derpnaster]

If you honestly feel like an opinion is deserving of your actions than think what you will. I am under no obligation to share information that might be used to identify myself, that includes histories of people I have faced off against. Now please return to the topic of balancing characters in the game.

You are entitled to you opinion, think of me what will I really don't care and honestly it's a game and this is a website. At the end of the day it's words and words mean nothing save the value we give them. I could list off every fight I've ever had and you would discount it because you've never heard of them.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Currently, I've been operating under a rule of thumb that for normal killing-oriented moves (not ladders, walls of pain, or other stuff that moves the opponent towards the blast zone with several small hits), the knockback growth of the move is inversely proportional to the percent at which it kills.

Is this accurate?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Some things I'd like to see:

#1: A version for people with the European version.

#2: The ability to select which characters one want. I, for instance, would not want any changes for characters that I might play in a tournament. As far as I know, this is possible with the current release and it'd be nice if the option were maintained for future releases.

#3: The way I view this project is something like: "Give some weaker characters some buffs to make them a bit more fun to play with and against". Not "Let's make the game better for competitive play" or "Let's change how characters are played". I would like if characters had no nerfs at all, that way I (and other players) won't get used to playing against characters that are weaker in some aspect compared to live. Say, for instance, that Palutena's Fair deals 1% lower damage (not quite sure why her Fair damage was lowered though). If I'm used to playing against that, then if I end up playing against a vanilla Palutena in a tournament I might be at a slight disadvantage, since I'm used to her Fair dealing less damage.

Another reason why I don't like nerfs is that they might make it harder to convince my friends to have us using the patch while playing. I imagine it'd be easier for them to accept a patch that only buffs and doesn't nerf than a patch that does both.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Actually, you're wrong.

He's a red throated caracar, which is a breed of falcon (go figure).

You're welcome.

[Citation needed]

 

[Bowserboy3]

[Citation needed]

Well put it this way; I have studied birds for years as a hobby. There isn't really a bird out there that I don't know about. If Falco's design doesn't take some form of inspiration from this bird then there's some kind of mix up.

More to the point, the red throated caracar is a bird of prey, and thus, so if Falco to an extent, as seen by his lines in the games and Smash. A phesant is not a bird of prey.

Also, have you seen how plump pheasant actually are? The tail is also far too huge. Not exactly Falco design, huh.

Just search up a red throated caracar. You'll see the resemblance easily.

 

[PavakaSword]

Sheesh, I get it already, nobody wants Marth to be Brawl Marth, don't need everyone jumping on me about it. I just wanted to share what I felt would make Marth able to compete better with the high and top tiers as well as keep him enjoyable to play, but whatever, I can just play fun Marth in PM and Brawl.

I liked your changes but even I know not everyone would agree with everything you said, I tried to find a middle ground for it
With the auto cancels I'm sure Marth would play nearly as well as brawl Marth (bar the awkward down air coming from behind). Marth's throws were good because they could chain grab opponents but we don't have access to that so the forward throw isn't that necessary, Marth having a combo throw is nice though

I think the auto cancels, down throw, down air tipper spike and the edited forward throw by bowserboy3 will be just fine for Marth without getting crazy

 

[JWai]

So I'm just gonna make an in-depth Robin change log. Nothing here will be as drastic as my Marth/Lucina changes, only slight tweeks to fix Robin's critical flaws that make no sense for her to have.

THE GRAB (THAT LAGGY PIECE OF ****)

• Robin's grab is bad. Abysmal range, monstrous endlag, and a super laggy pummel combined makes for one of the worst grabs in Sm4sh. It wouldn't be that bad though if Robin didn't have such useful throws: a great combo throw in dthrow, a kill throw in bthrow, and a get off me throw in fthrow. Doesn't help that Robin has Checkmate, Robin's Hoo-Hah, which kills the entire cast between 80%-130% (depending on weight and vertical survivability), so it's kind of a trigger for Robin players to rely on such a jank grab.
• The changes:
  • I looked at every Fire Emblem character's grab frame data. Theirs are pretty much identical. It's likely since Robin has some weird magic grab instead of just grabbing like a normal person.
  • Because I'm certain much of the endlag is the animation, unless the animation frames can be sped up, it's best to just increase the range to a normal grab, or maybe even above average to compensate for the lag.
  • If the animation can be edited somehow, then best to use Corrin's grab frame data (just because they're both Avatars)
  • Grab frame data:
    • Standing: 31
    • Dash: 38
    • Pivot: 36

DASH SPEED

• Robin, for reasons I fail to understand, has the slowest dash speed in the game. She moves slower than Jigglypuff, who is an air fighter and doesn't need ground speed. Why?
• This isn't really an major issue for Robin players though because not only is Robin's aerial mobility good enough to get by, but because Robin is more about trapping and zoning with her magic, the dash speed isn't needed. That said, I think Robin should have a slight increase in ground speed, only so she can follow up Arcthunder and Arcfire traps easier.
• Dash speed: 1.15 -> 1.27
  • This ties Robin with Villager in terms of ground mobility, though Villager still has better walk speed. No longer the slowest runner, but still tied for bottom three.

ARCFIRE

• Arcfire has a bit too much endlag that makes it difficult to get followups such as uairs, and makes it easy to get punished by fast characters that can run under Arcfire before it lands.
• The Arcfire frame data change would, like the dash speed buff, improve Robin's Arcfire followups, and hopefully make is slightly less harder to get punished. Basically make it a little like PK Fire, in the sense that followups can be somewhat quickly after throwing out the projectile.
• Frame Data:
  • FAF: 64 -> 60
  • I want 58, but that sounds too OP (6 frames is a lot)

TILTS

• Robin's tilts have terrible reach. Her overall reach is pretty bad compared to other sword fighters (except Roy and MK), but her tilts are notorious among Robin players for their ineffective reach. Unlike her aerials and smashes, there's no Levin Sword option here. It's sad because, like her grab game, her tilts aren't bad. Dtilt is like Marth's, a quick spacing move that can be followed up at low to mid percents. Ftilt doesn't have a use, as dtilt is better, but it can create space as well. Utilt is a decent anti-air, can combo into itself at low percents, and can be combo'd into from dthrow at mid percents. Unfortunately, this means nothing when their range is ineffective at fulfilling its purpose. The idea here is to increase the size of the hitboxes so as to give the tilts more range. Again, nothing drastic, just increases ranging from 0.5u to 2.0u. Enough that they aren't shorter than Mario's fist but don't outrange the smashes either.
• On that note, a slight increase in hitbox size for the smashes? Not needed at all, but a 0.25u increase would be nice. Again not needed.

TOMES AND LEVIN SWORD DURABILITY

• So, everyone knows Robin's durability system? It's a great mechanic, forcing the player to strategically plan their use, as well as giving Robin a powerful item when durability hits 0. Still, it's also a bad mechanic as it can cause weapons to run out at crucial moments, like recovery, KOs, punish opportunities, etc. So the goal here is to increase some of the durability points of Robin's gear.
  • Levin Sword: 8 -> 12
    • More Levin Sword combos, smash attacks, Checkmate
  • Arcfire: 6 -> 9
    • More trapping
  • Elwind: 18 -> 24
    • Recovery
  • Those three are really the only ones that need an increase. Thunder has 20 uses, which allows for 7 Elthunders, 4 Arcthunders, and 3 Thorons, which is good enough. Nosferatu isn't used outside of hard reads and setups, and I personally waste Nosferatu on purpose just to get a free book to throw.
  • No recharge time decreases either. If Rosalina can wait 13 seconds for Luma, Robin can wait 7 seconds for her recovery.

OTHER STUFF

• Robin has a really hard time landing. A very hard time. Final Destination is her worst stage because she's easily juggled and doesn't have a good move to relieve pressure from below. I can't think of anything except a fall speed increase so she can return to the ground faster.
  • Fall speed: 1.5 -> 1.6
  • Fastfall speed: 2.4 -> 2.56
  • Not a drastic increase. Original fall speed was tied with Mario, now tied with Ryu, so still average. Gravity stays the same so jump height doesn't change. Recovery is a little more difficult, but Robin's upB covers good vertical and horizontal distance, so it's fine. Robin also survives a bit longer when launched vertically, however she's now slightly easier to combo, so it's a fair trade off.
• Nosferatu in midair puts Robin in special fall. That's dumb.

Can't think of anything else. Wow, this post should be its own thread with it being this long...

 

[MarioMeteor]

Well put it this way; I have studied birds for years as a hobby. There isn't really a bird out there that I don't know about. If Falco's design doesn't take some form of inspiration from this bird then there's some kind of mix up.

More to the point, the red throated caracar is a bird of prey, and thus, so if Falco to an extent, as seen by his lines in the games and Smash. A phesant is not a bird of prey.

Also, have you seen how plump pheasant actually are? The tail is also far too huge. Not exactly Falco design, huh.

Just search up a red throated caracar. You'll see the resemblance easily.

Until I hear Nintendo call him a... red-thumbed carcass, I'm sticking with pheasant.

 

[JWai]

Well put it this way; I have studied birds for years as a hobby. There isn't really a bird out there that I don't know about. If Falco's design doesn't take some form of inspiration from this bird then there's some kind of mix up.

More to the point, the red throated caracar is a bird of prey, and thus, so if Falco to an extent, as seen by his lines in the games and Smash. A phesant is not a bird of prey.

Also, have you seen how plump pheasant actually are? The tail is also far too huge. Not exactly Falco design, huh.

Just search up a red throated caracar. You'll see the resemblance easily.

People say Falco's a pheasant. He is a anthropomorphic bird though, so I'm pretty sure he's not really gonna look like anything except a bird made to look humanlike, cool and badass.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Currently, I've been operating under a rule of thumb that for normal killing-oriented moves (not ladders, walls of pain, or other stuff that moves the opponent towards the blast zone with several small hits), the knockback growth of the move is inversely proportional to the percent at which it kills.

Is this accurate?

Is someone going to confirm this?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

JWai I can't actually read your posts well with that font colour. Too dark on top of black background. Might wanna pick another colour there.

Also not to hammer in the point but yes we don't want Melee Marth or Brawl Falco back. Don't want gatekeeper characters popping back through the hack.

 

[JWai]

Nidtendofreak Changed it to white temporarily. I'm gonna change it to a brighter shade of blue later.

 

[Deleted member]

Some things I'd like to see:

#1: A version for people with the European version.

#2: The ability to select which characters one want. I, for instance, would not want any changes for characters that I might play in a tournament. As far as I know, this is possible with the current release and it'd be nice if the option were maintained for future releases.

#3: The way I view this project is something like: "Give some weaker characters some buffs to make them a bit more fun to play with and against". Not "Let's make the game better for competitive play" or "Let's change how characters are played". I would like if characters had no nerfs at all, that way I (and other players) won't get used to playing against characters that are weaker in some aspect compared to live. Say, for instance, that Palutena's Fair deals 1% lower damage (not quite sure why her Fair damage was lowered though). If I'm used to playing against that, then if I end up playing against a vanilla Palutena in a tournament I might be at a slight disadvantage, since I'm used to her Fair dealing less damage.

Another reason why I don't like nerfs is that they might make it harder to convince my friends to have us using the patch while playing. I imagine it'd be easier for them to accept a patch that only buffs and doesn't nerf than a patch that does both.

Well, no offense, and I can't speak for the creator of the mod, but these mods are usually made to be competitive, not to appeal to your friends. These projects are usually meant to be taken seriously, not as some casual side-show that you occasionally pop in every 3 months or so.

 

[ZeusLink]

So I'm just gonna make an in-depth Robin change log. Nothing here will be as drastic as my Marth/Lucina changes, only slight tweeks to fix Robin's critical flaws that make no sense for her to have.

THE GRAB (THAT LAGGY PIECE OF ****)

• Robin's grab is bad. Abysmal range, monstrous endlag, and a super laggy pummel combined makes for one of the worst grabs in Sm4sh. It wouldn't be that bad though if Robin didn't have such useful throws: a great combo throw in dthrow, a kill throw in bthrow, and a get off me throw in fthrow. Doesn't help that Robin has Checkmate, Robin's Hoo-Hah, which kills the entire cast between 80%-130% (depending on weight and vertical survivability), so it's kind of a trigger for Robin players to rely on such a jank grab.
• The changes:
  • I looked at every Fire Emblem character's grab frame data. Theirs are pretty much identical. It's likely since Robin has some weird magic grab instead of just grabbing like a normal person.
  • Because I'm certain much of the endlag is the animation, unless the animation frames can be sped up, it's best to just increase the range to a normal grab, or maybe even above average to compensate for the lag.
  • If the animation can be edited somehow, then best to use Corrin's grab frame data (just because they're both Avatars)
  • Grab frame data:
    • Standing: 31
    • Dash: 38
    • Pivot: 36

DASH SPEED

• Robin, for reasons I fail to understand, has the slowest dash speed in the game. She moves slower than Jigglypuff, who is an air fighter and doesn't need ground speed. Why?
• This isn't really an major issue for Robin players though because not only is Robin's aerial mobility good enough to get by, but because Robin is more about trapping and zoning with her magic, the dash speed isn't needed. That said, I think Robin should have a slight increase in ground speed, only so she can follow up Arcthunder and Arcfire traps easier.
• Dash speed: 1.15 -> 1.27
  • This ties Robin with Villager in terms of ground mobility, though Villager still has better walk speed. No longer the slowest runner, but still tied for bottom three.

ARCFIRE

• Arcfire has a bit too much endlag that makes it difficult to get followups such as uairs, and makes it easy to get punished by fast characters that can run under Arcfire before it lands.
• The Arcfire frame data change would, like the dash speed buff, improve Robin's Arcfire followups, and hopefully make is slightly less harder to get punished. Basically make it a little like PK Fire, in the sense that followups can be somewhat quickly after throwing out the projectile.
• Frame Data:
  • FAF: 64 -> 60
  • I want 58, but that sounds too OP (6 frames is a lot)

TILTS

• Robin's tilts have terrible reach. Her overall reach is pretty bad compared to other sword fighters (except Roy and MK), but her tilts are notorious among Robin players for their ineffective reach. Unlike her aerials and smashes, there's no Levin Sword option here. It's sad because, like her grab game, her tilts aren't bad. Dtilt is like Marth's, a quick spacing move that can be followed up at low to mid percents. Ftilt doesn't have a use, as dtilt is better, but it can create space as well. Utilt is a decent anti-air, can combo into itself at low percents, and can be combo'd into from dthrow at mid percents. Unfortunately, this means nothing when their range is ineffective at fulfilling its purpose. The idea here is to increase the size of the hitboxes so as to give the tilts more range. Again, nothing drastic, just increases ranging from 0.5u to 2.0u. Enough that they aren't shorter than Mario's fist but don't outrange the smashes either.
• On that note, a slight increase in hitbox size for the smashes? Not needed at all, but a 0.25u increase would be nice. Again not needed.

TOMES AND LEVIN SWORD DURABILITY

• So, everyone knows Robin's durability system? It's a great mechanic, forcing the player to strategically plan their use, as well as giving Robin a powerful item when durability hits 0. Still, it's also a bad mechanic as it can cause weapons to run out at crucial moments, like recovery, KOs, punish opportunities, etc. So the goal here is to increase some of the durability points of Robin's gear.
  • Levin Sword: 8 -> 12
    • More Levin Sword combos, smash attacks, Checkmate
  • Arcfire: 6 -> 9
    • More trapping
  • Elwind: 18 -> 24
    • Recovery
  • Those three are really the only ones that need an increase. Thunder has 20 uses, which allows for 7 Elthunders, 4 Arcthunders, and 3 Thorons, which is good enough. Nosferatu isn't used outside of hard reads and setups, and I personally waste Nosferatu on purpose just to get a free book to throw.
  • No recharge time decreases either. If Rosalina can wait 13 seconds for Luma, Robin can wait 7 seconds for her recovery.

OTHER STUFF

• Robin has a really hard time landing. A very hard time. Final Destination is her worst stage because she's easily juggled and doesn't have a good move to relieve pressure from below. I can't think of anything except a fall speed increase so she can return to the ground faster.
  • Fall speed: 1.5 -> 1.6
  • Fastfall speed: 2.4 -> 2.56
  • Not a drastic increase. Original fall speed was tied with Mario, now tied with Ryu, so still average. Gravity stays the same so jump height doesn't change. Recovery is a little more difficult, but Robin's upB covers good vertical and horizontal distance, so it's fine. Robin also survives a bit longer when launched vertically, however she's now slightly easier to combo, so it's a fair trade off.
• Nosferatu in midair puts Robin in special fall. That's dumb.

Can't think of anything else. Wow, this post should be its own thread with it being this long...

Robin's grab range is so bad, I gotta dash grab 40% of the time to get a down throw.

 

[JWai]

Robin's grab range is so bad, I gotta dash grab 40% of the time to get a down throw.

I use Arcthunder to hold opponents in place for grabs. And still miss half the time

 

[MurilloxEAM]

I wanna see a video of this patch! Specially for Palutena!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Certainly agree that Robin needs a grab buff. I put up exact numbers a few posts back, it was basically a few units above average but still below D3's range for my suggestion. Probably make the recovery a frame or two longer than average to balance it out, still a reduction of its current cooldown.

Speed others have pointed out in the past, is a very dangerous thing to give to Robin because it could make Arcfire combos for days that are basically guaranteed which is not a good thing particularly if one of those combos is grab which leads into checkmate and he doesn't need a farther option than Arcthunder for doing that. Probably best not to touch that.

Sadly they can't change fall special stuff so no fixing Nosferatu that way. Increasing its grab range might be something to look into. Maybe below him in particular to give him a half usable landing option without making it too good for normal uses?

Would probably only increase Elwind's durability, assuming they have access to those properties at all.

What about Dash Attack, for when Arcthunder hits but is too far away for a grab? Let Robin get a bit more reward in that situation?

 

[ZeusLink]

Half the time, I never knew why Robin was slow to start of with. But I suppose it could be the same reason why Link is slow; the large inventory and switching books and weapons every 6 seconds. Robin is such a bookworm.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

On the topic of Robin, I always felt it was a little silly that Nosferatu had a 45 second recharge time limit. I don't see many Robins use the move due to small hitbox and slow frame data, so why have it take so long to recharge...

If possible, I would like to see it get reduced to about 23 or 30 seconds at least.

 

[Derpnaster]

Half the time, I never knew why Robin was slow to start of with. But I suppose it could be the same reason why Link is slow; the large inventory and switching books and weapons every 6 seconds. Robin is such a bookworm.

Pretty much, I mean imagine a world where Link could toss out a Gale, Pull a bomb, trap or hit with Gale and immediately follow up with a bomb to up smash or bombo combo (Two Bombs used as a juggle into a kill move like fresh hit Uair) all within fifteen seconds AND safely get away on a wiff? No thank you Link's burst mobility is already pretty nuts if you know how to bombslide and he hits way to hard to warrant him being fast

 

[Deleted member]

Okay, I've played with Palutena and Zelda for a bit and I have to say, they feel a lot better now. Palutena's Jab is great, her Tilts are pretty solid, and her F-Smash is a much better kill move. Zelda's Jab is actually really good now that it isn't the slowest Jab in the game, her F-Smash is better on shields thanks to the reduced end lag. and while Din's Fire still sucks, at least it has consistent KO power. This was a great start and I would leave most of your changes intact for these two, but there are a few things I feel should be implemented:

Palutena

• Up Air: Landing lag 12 -> 19 frames. The reduction was too drastic, but I think the original game's 22 frames was a bit too much. This seems like a good compromise.

• Down Air: FAF 49 -> 55. Again, I think the reduction was too much, but I don't want to bump it all the way back up to the original game's 59 frames. I also might suggest a slight increase to the hitbox size since this move is surprisingly hard to hit with.

• Up Throw: KBG 80 -> 65. I like that it can now function as a kill throw since it had little use before, but the combination of both the damage increase and the KBG increase made it kill way too early. Keep the damage, lower the growth.

• Back Throw: KBG 100 -> 85. This needs its KO power toned down a bit too.

• Up Smash: Startup frame 13 -> 18, FAF 58 -> 63. I feel the move came out too quick for its power and range, so I reverted its startup back to its original value and gave it more end lag (although not quite as much as originally.) In exchange for these changes though, I think it would be good to give the move more active frames so that it matches the animation better. Currently, the opponent can literally be standing within the beam of light and not get hit, which is really stupid looking. These new later hitboxes should be weaker than the earlier ones, dealing around 5% damage and low KB.

• Autoreticle: Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, either make the attack shoot the projectiles in a predetermined direction if the opponent is out of targeting range, or if this isn't possible, prevent Palutena from going into the firing animation if the opponent isn't in range. Also, if possible, either make its targeting more reliable or increase the targeting range.

Zelda

• Down Air: Sweetspot KBG 105 -> 85. I also thought the sweetspot felt a bit too weak before, especially on grounded characters, but this was way too big of an increase.

• For other changes, look at my post on page 3 (and the reasons on page 6.) I especially feel like she needs the mobility changes I suggested.

 

[JWai]

Pretty much, I mean imagine a world where Link could toss out a Gale, Pull a bomb, trap or hit with Gale and immediately follow up with a bomb to up smash or bombo combo (Two Bombs used as a juggle into a kill move like fresh hit Uair) all within fifteen seconds AND safely get away on a wiff? No thank you Link's burst mobility is already pretty nuts if you know how to bombslide and he hits way to hard to warrant him being fast

Legit the reason why anytime someone wants to be faster I laugh. He already has a strong combo game and his projectiles are better than Toon Link's for camping and spacing. All Link needs is better frame data.

Certainly agree that Robin needs a grab buff. I put up exact numbers a few posts back, it was basically a few units above average but still below D3's range for my suggestion. Probably make the recovery a frame or two longer than average to balance it out, still a reduction of its current cooldown.

Speed others have pointed out in the past, is a very dangerous thing to give to Robin because it could make Arcfire combos for days that are basically guaranteed which is not a good thing particularly if one of those combos is grab which leads into checkmate and he doesn't need a farther option than Arcthunder for doing that. Probably best not to touch that.

Sadly they can't change fall special stuff so no fixing Nosferatu that way. Increasing its grab range might be something to look into. Maybe below him in particular to give him a half usable landing option without making it too good for normal uses?

Would probably only increase Elwind's durability, assuming they have access to those properties at all.

What about Dash Attack, for when Arcthunder hits but is too far away for a grab? Let Robin get a bit more reward in that situation?

Grab is pretty much an unnecessary flaw every Robin player agrees needs fixing. Your suggestion fits with what I was thinking. Either give it range to justify the endlag, or significantly reduce the endlag to compensate the nonexistent range. A super short grab should not have frame data rivaling Lucas' tether grab.

Speed is definitely something that Robin doesn't actually need increased, another thing Robin players can agree on. I just want Robin to not be slower than memetic losers Jigglypuff and Ganondorf. She'd still be third slowest with the run speed buff I suggested though, so she won't be doing crazy Arcthunder/Arcfire stuff. All the same though, that idea is more of personal preference than an actual need.

Dang, so no hope for Zelda's Din Fire?

About the durability, I only suggested Arcfire and Elwind mainly based off mine and others' experiences with Robin. I know some players like me use the fire jab finisher a lot, so Arcfire runs out pretty quickly. I'm also addicted to Robin's LS fair and uair, and the durability increase was so Robin could keep the Levin Sword longer for more fancy Levin Sword combos. Those are also more based on personal preference of a Robin player.

Lol, I actually didn't think about dash attack. It's probably because I rarely use it . I would suggest less cooldown, but dash attacks are commonly somewhat laggy, so maybe more knockback or damage?

There's not really much I'd change about Robin, she's mostly perfect as is.

Why does Thunder and its variants clank with everything though? Item priority maybe?

 

[JWai]

Okay, I've played with Palutena and Zelda for a bit and I have to say, they feel a lot better now. Palutena's Jab is great, her Tilts are pretty solid, and her F-Smash is a much better kill move. Zelda's Jab is actually really good now that it isn't the slowest Jab in the game, her F-Smash is better on shields thanks to the reduced end lag. and while Din's Fire still sucks, at least it has consistent KO power. This was a great start and I would leave most of your changes intact for these two, but there are a few things I feel should be implemented:

Palutena

• Up Air: Landing lag 12 -> 19 frames. The reduction was too drastic, but I think the original 22 frames was a bit too much. This seems like a good compromise.

• Down Air: FAF 49 -> 55. Again, I think the reduction was too much, but I don't want to bump it all the way back up to the original 59 frames. I also might suggest a very slight increase to the hitbox size since this move is surprisingly hard to hit with.

• Up Throw: KBG 80 -> 65. I like that it can now function as a kill throw since it had little use before, but the combination of both the damage increase and the KBG increase made it kill way too early. Keep the damage, lower the growth.

• Back Throw: KBG 100 -> 85. This needs its KO power toned down a bit too.

• Up Smash: Startup frame 13 -> 18, FAF 58 -> 63. I feel the move came out too quick for its power and range, so I reverted its startup back to its original value and gave it more end lag (although not quite as much as originally.) In exchange for these changes though, I think it would be good to give the move more active frames so that it matches the animation better. Currently, the opponent can literally be standing within the beam of light and not get hit, which is really stupid looking. These new later hitboxes should be weaker than the earlier ones, dealing around 5% damage and low KB.

• Autoreticle: Like I mentioned earlier in the thread, either make the attack shoot the projectiles straight forward if the opponent is out of targeting range or, if this isn't possible, prevent Palutena from going into the firing animation if the opponent isn't in range. Also, if you could, either make the targeting better or increase the targeting range.

Zelda

• Down Air: Sweetspot KBG 105 -> 85. I too thought the sweetspot felt a bit too weak before, especially on grounded characters, but this was way too big of an increase.

• For other changes, look at my post on page 3 (and the reasons on page 6.) I especially feel like she needs the mobility changes I suggested.

What were the Palutena changes before? I remember it being like 10-12 frames cut off from her tilts for some reason.

 

[Deleted member]

What were the Palutena changes before? I remember it being like 10-12 frames cut off from her tilts for some reason.

The changes listed in the OP are the mod's original changes to Palutena as far as I'm aware.

All of her tilts have less startup now, and Up and Forward tilts have less end lag. Forward tilt especially feels much better and is actually worth using now. I don't think they need any changes beyond what was already done to them. They're solid but not overpowered.

 

[Derpnaster]

Legit the reason why anytime someone wants to be faster I laugh. He already has a strong combo game and his projectiles are better than Toon Link's for camping and spacing. All Link needs is better frame data.



Grab is pretty much an unnecessary flaw every Robin player agrees needs fixing. Your suggestion fits with what I was thinking. Either give it range to justify the endlag, or significantly reduce the endlag to compensate the nonexistent range. A super short grab should not have frame data rivaling Lucas' tether grab.

Speed is definitely something that Robin doesn't actually need increased, another thing Robin players can agree on. I just want Robin to not be slower than memetic losers Jigglypuff and Ganondorf. She'd still be third slowest with the run speed buff I suggested though, so she won't be doing crazy Arcthunder/Arcfire stuff. All the same though, that idea is more of personal preference than an actual need.

Dang, so no hope for Zelda's Din Fire?

About the durability, I only suggested Arcfire and Elwind mainly based off mine and others' experiences with Robin. I know some players like me use the fire jab finisher a lot, so Arcfire runs out pretty quickly. I'm also addicted to Robin's LS fair and uair, and the durability increase was so Robin could keep the Levin Sword longer for more fancy Levin Sword combos. Those are also more based on personal preference of a Robin player.

Lol, I actually didn't think about dash attack. It's probably because I rarely use it . I would suggest less cooldown, but dash attacks are commonly somewhat laggy, so maybe more knockback or damage?

There's not really much I'd change about Robin, she's mostly perfect as is.

Why does Thunder and its variants clank with everything though? Item priority maybe?

I'm in the camp that wants just frame data changes, Link honestly could be a threat even to top tiers if he had better frame data. That said he makes due as it is. Smash 4 Link is arguably the strongest mainline iteration of Link in Smash

 

[Radical Larry]

Oh my, once again, I'm updating the hell out of my suggestions of the Link and Ganondorf changes, but that's not all. I'm adding Ryu, Falco and Jigglypuff to this mix. I'm updating my list to make it look a lot better visually and categorically, so as to make sure that it is all distinct:

Spoiler: Link

• Attribute Statistics:
  • Run Speed Increased: 1.3944 => 1.475
  • Walk Speed Increased: 1.188 => 1.219
  • Air Speed Increased: 0.88 => 0.93
  • Gravity Decreased: 0.096 => 0.091
  • Wall Jumping Ability Added
  • Jump Squat Frames Decreased: 7 Frames => 4 Frames
• Ground Moves [Normals]:
  • Jab Attack:
    • Jab 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frames 7-8 => Frames 5-6
    • Jab 1 FAF Decreased: 28 => 22
    • Jab 2 FAF Decreased: 21 => 18
  • Dash Attack:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 20-23 => 16-19
    • Damages Decreased: 14/13/12% => 13/12/11%
    • FAF Decreased: 57 => 48
  • Forward Tilt:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 15-19 => Frames 13-17
    • FAF Decreased: 38 => 32
  • Up Tilt:
    • FAF Decreased: 36 => 26
  • Down Tilt:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 11-12 => Frames 8-9
    • Damage Decreased: 10%
    • Angle Shifted: 280/80 => 270/270
    • Hitbox Added to Tip:
      • Damage: 13%
      • Base Knockback: 90
      • Knockback Growth: 30
      • Angle: 60 Degrees
• Smash Attacks:
  • Forward Smash:
    • Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frames 15-16 => Frames 12-13
    • Hit 1 Hitboxes Changed to be like Tip Hit
    • Hit 1 FAF Decreased: 52 => 42
    • Hit 2 FAF Decreased: 68 => 54
  • Up Smash:
    • Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frames 10-13 => Frames 8-11
  • Down Smash:
    • Hit 1 Damages Increased: 14/16/17/16% => 16/17/19/17%
    • Hit 2 Damages Increased: 12/12/11/10% => 15/15/13/12%
    • Optional Changes:
      • Hit 2 Angle Change: 30 Degrees => 80 Degrees
      • Hit 2 Base Knockback Increased: 80 => 90
      • Hit 2 Knockback Growth Increased: 63 => 75
• Throws:
  • Back Throw:
    • Hit 2 Damage Increased: 4% => 13%
    • Hit 2 Knockback Growth Increased: 110 => 130
• Aerial Attacks:
  • Neutral Aerial:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frames 7-8 => Frames 4-5
    • Late Hitboxes Active: Frames 9-31 => Frames 6-28
  • Forward Aerial:
    • Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frames 14-15 => 12-13
  • Back Aerial:
    • Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frames 6-8 => Frames 3-5
    • Hit 1 Damage Increased: 3% => 4%
    • Hit 2 Damage Increased: 5% => 7%
  • Down Aerial:
    • Earliest Hit Damage Increased: 15% => 22%
    • Earliest Hit Angle Changed: 270/55 => 85
    • Earliest Hit Knockback Growth Increased: 80/40 => 170
  • Grab Aerial:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frame 12 => Frame 9
    • Landing Lag Decreased: 8 Frames => 2 Frames
• Special Moves:
  • Hero's Bow:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frame 18 => Frame 12
  • Gale Boomerang:
    • Start-Up Decreased: Frame 27 => Frame 19
  • Spin Attack:
    • All Hitboxes hit separately. This means that if the first one connects, instead of the rest disappearing, the rest will stay.
    • All HItboxes gain +7% in Shield Damage.
    • FAF Decreased: 82 => 64

I'm heading to do the rest later today, and the rest are very reasonable or even should just be done for characters.

 

[Derpnaster]

Apart from the movement stuff I think most of those are reasonable changes.
Like I said however, I don't think Link needs mobility, just better frame data.

Ok I have had a better chance to read over the changes and I do have a few thing I'd like to say

Dtilt.
While I like the idea of a tipper hitbox, I think we should just move the tilt's meteor box to the tip and leave it at that. It gives Link a safer edgegaurd and with the frame changes and some tweaks that meteor can be made decently hard to hit. Link with spikes is a very scary thing and I don't think we should remove them because they really help his offtage game by giving him an option to kill down.

Dair.
Again, I don't think removing the spike from this is a good idea. Link was given a spike because it honestly made sense that a powerfull downward blow would send opponets to the abyss. If anything I'd make the spike stronger on a fresh hit and give it a slightly weaker spike box at the hilt on later hitsto force a combo into the late hit tipper which in turn can force a combo into a uair.

Dash attack.
I would like to take a page out of the Smash 4 Dev's book and honestly just buff this move.
I have a couple of reasons for it.
1) perpetuate the joke that started with Nintendo in that Link's Dash Attack has really only gotten buffed or left alone.
2) It's already a good punish move, But a very poor zonebreaker due to endlag. these only really land on reads or bomb combos.

On a personal note, Link already has a very reliable kill throw in is uthrow. having a back throw seems a bit redundant and giving Link even more kill options might backfire a little. That said right now Fthrow and Bthrow (At least in my style of play) are mre for positioning as they both have very similar angles and are very good get off me throws that happen to leave room for a Gale or Bomb follow up.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Well, no offense, and I can't speak for the creator of the mod, but these mods are usually made to be competitive, not to appeal to your friends. These projects are usually meant to be taken seriously, not as some casual side-show that you occasionally pop in every 3 months or so.

I think you misunderstood me. I’m not saying that the mod should be balanced for free for all with items on or anything like that. I’m still talking about 1v1, tournament legal stages, no items, 2 stock.

We’ve discussed this in the thread earlier, although I suppose it doesn’t hurt to bring this up again: Trying to push this mod into being used at big tournaments is most likely not going to happen. For one thing, it might upset Nintendo/Sora/Namco. Another reason is that modding your Wii U takes some effort and not all TO would be willing to do that, and many/most tournament players wouldn't either. This is assuming the mod wouldn’t be controversial.

This mod will be controversial. Some will feel that the game was fine the way it was and shouldn’t be changed. Some will feel that the buffs were too much and that some characters are OP now (whether or not it’s actually true). If there are nerfs, then some/many players of those characters will be upset.

So, how will the mod be used? I see two main uses:

#1: Playing with your friends. This will be the main use.

#2: Some small tournaments might be possible in some areas, although I suspect those will be rare and won’t have all too many players. I highly doubt we’ll see players like ZeRo, Nairo, or Ally in those tournaments.

The fact of the matter is, chances are most competitive players will skip this mod. It’s not going to help them win tournaments (unless you argue that practicing versus a stronger Palutena makes you better at fighting a weaker in tournaments. This is one of the reasons top tiers shouldn’t get nerfed. Practicing against a weaker Cloud is going to make it harder to beat him in a tournament).

 

[SageX3]

Here are my changes for Falco. Please check them out. I would really like for Falco Fall to become a good character again.

• I suggest increasing his dash speed to 1.6. That way he is is as fast as Mario, Ryu , and Bayonetta. Characters that are also focused around combos.
• Increase his air speed to 1 to allow better follow ups.
• For his up throw decrease the KBG by 20. To allow for more consistent follow up.
• For Fair decrease landing lag to 12 frames and increase the auto cancel window. This will make Fair more useful as an approach tool, while still being punishable.
• And now for the big elephant in the room, his dair. It is God awful. It is teribble as a spike because of how slow it is. And it doesn't have the utility of being and approach tool and defense opinion as it used too. I need some help on fixing this. Because it is soo easy to make it too strong. So I suggest increasing the active hit box to 16 frames. Deacresing the start up by 20 frames, I'm not sure on this value though. And make it auto cancel from a short hop. Hopefully these changes allow for him to use it as a more effective approach tool and combo move, while allowing it to still be punished on startup,but not as easily as before, and be an ok defense opinion.
• For his last change I want to touch up on another staple move of his, his blaster. I say just decrease the end lag by 40. This would make it an effective mid range tool, but still allow it to be punished up close and not allow Falco to win in any projectile fight against any zoning character.
• Really the entire point of this was to give Falco an actual playstyle. In Smash4 Falco has no specific style, which would make him a Jack of all trades. Until you realize that he sucks at nearly everything. His projectile is garbage, so is his speed ,recovery, aproach, and defence. And then you realize there are characters that do everything he does but much much better. Such as Ryu, Mario, and even Bayonetta. In Falco's current state he has absolutely no reason to be in this game, other than to give Star Fox another representative, other than Wolf. So please consider these changes hopefully they help him out. Because right now he is awful.
• P.S. very sorry for going on a rant. It's just that I love this character sooooo much. So yea. Bye

 

[JWai]

Attribute Statistics:

• Run Speed Increased: 1.3944 => 1.475
• Walk Speed Increased: 1.188 => 1.219
• Air Speed Increased: 0.88 => 0.93
• Gravity Decreased: 0.096 => 0.091
• Wall Jumping Ability Added
• Jump Squat Frames Decreased: 7 Frames => 4 Frames

Mobility changes for Link aren't necessary bruh. That'd be too OP.

Down Tilt:

• Start-Up Decreased: Frames 11-12 => Frames 8-9
• Damage Decreased: 10%
• Angle Shifted: 280/80 => 270/270
• Hitbox Added to Tip:
  • Damage: 13%
  • Base Knockback: 90
  • Knockback Growth: 30
  • Angle: 60 Degrees

Dtilt doesn't need a fancy tipper. The move is fine in terms of damage. The frame data is fine though.

Smash Attacks:

• Forward Smash:
  • Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frames 15-16 => Frames 12-13
  • Hit 1 Hitboxes Changed to be like Tip Hit
  • Hit 1 FAF Decreased: 52 => 42
  • Hit 2 FAF Decreased: 68 => 54
• Up Smash:
  • Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frames 10-13 => Frames 8-11
• Down Smash:
  • Hit 1 Damages Increased: 14/16/17/16% => 16/17/19/17%
  • Hit 2 Damages Increased: 12/12/11/10% => 15/15/13/12%
  • Optional Changes:
    • Hit 2 Angle Change: 30 Degrees => 80 Degrees
    • Hit 2 Base Knockback Increased: 80 => 90
    • Hit 2 Knockback Growth Increased: 63 => 75

Might wanna add a few frames back to the FAF. A ten frame decrease for hit 1 and a massive 14 frame decrease for hit 2? Remember, this is Link's forward smash, which can kill as early as 50%-60%. It's finw for it to be a little laggy. The FAF you suggest would make the move a little free.

A frame 8 usmash?! No way, Link's usmash is just fine honestly, frame 10 is just fine.

Dsmash changes you suggested are weird. It doesn't need any changes, as its damage output and power are slightly above the norm for dsmashes. Your suggestions are a bit too powerful for a dsmash, especially considering Link's dsmash is similar to most other sword fighters in damage and knockback. Also don't think removing Link's semi-spike hit is a good idea.

Throws:

• Back Throw:
  • Hit 2 Damage Increased: 4% => 13%
  • Hit 2 Knockback Growth Increased: 110 => 130

Link has a kill thrown in uthrow. He does not need one in bthrow. Especially one that's waaaay more powerful than Ness's. His is 11% with 10 BKB and 130 KBG that kills most characters as early as 90%. The back throw you suggest for Link deals 16% total with 50 BKB and 130 KBG. That could probably kill anyone as early as 30%-60%, I can't actually test this. That's broken. Just leave the bthrow alone. It doesn't need to be a kill throw. Link had many other kill options.

• Back Aerial:
  • Hit 1 Start-Up Decreased: Frames 6-8 => Frames 3-5
  • Hit 1 Damage Increased: 3% => 4%
  • Hit 2 Damage Increased: 5% => 7%

• Down Aerial:
  • Earliest Hit Damage Increased: 15% => 22%
  • Earliest Hit Angle Changed: 270/55 => 85
  • Earliest Hit Knockback Growth Increased: 80/40 => 170

• Grab Aerial:
  • Start-Up Decreased: Frame 12 => Frame 9
  • Landing Lag Decreased: 8 Frames => 2 Frames

I don't think back aerial needs changes at all. In Sm4sh, Link can use bair to true combo into upB until mid percents. Increasing the damage increase the knockback and ruins that combo. Also, frame 3 startup?! No, frame 6 is fine.

That dair is almost as broken as your bthrow. Why'd you remove the meteor smash? Dair was a useful edgeguard tool because of it. Also, the damage and knockback are way too high. The dair already kills at appropriate percents in Sm4sh, now your changes would make it kill at inappropriately low percents (roughly 60%-80% on the ground). Too powerful.

Grab aerials are all standardized among the cast. Their current frame data in Sm4sh is fine, this doesn't need changing.

Special Moves:

• Hero's Bow:
  • Start-Up Decreased: Frame 18 => Frame 12
• Gale Boomerang:
  • Start-Up Decreased: Frame 27 => Frame 19
• Spin Attack:
  • All Hitboxes hit separately. This means that if the first one connects, instead of the rest disappearing, the rest will stay.
  • All HItboxes gain +7% in Shield Damage.
  • FAF Decreased: 82 => 64

Link's specials don't need changes.

 

[ZeusLink]

I think the 26 FAF on the up tilt is a bit much. At least having it to 30 could do.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Now here's a character that's very overlooked: Lucario

Forward smash active frames - frame 22-23 -> frame 18-23. FAF: frame 55 -> frame 50.
Down smash active frames - frame 19-21 -> frame 16-21. FAF: frame 55 -> 50.

Up throw KBG - 70 -> 60.

Neutral air active frames - 8-11 -> 6-12.

Aura Sphere (uncharged) FAF: 49 -> 42.


I almost threw up looking at Lucario's frame data. "Bad" doesn't begin to describe it. So basically, I corrected some of that. I tweaked his borderline unusable smash attacks so that they come out a little faster and have some of the lingering hitboxes that they had in Brawl, and end slightly faster as well. I fixed his neutral air, which is a disgustingly bad move compared to how it is in Brawl so that it comes out slightly faster and lingers. Finally, the knockback on his up throw was decreased in give him a slightly better combo game, and the ending lag on his uncharged Aura Spheres was decreased to let him play the zoning game.

In truth, I wanted to do a lot more with him, but he's already a good character. Flawed, but good.

I'm in the camp that wants just frame data changes, Link honestly could be a threat even to top tiers if he had better frame data. That said he makes due as it is. Smash 4 Link is arguably the strongest mainline iteration of Link in Smash

That's not saying much, unfortunately. Poor elf's doomed to low tier for all eternity, it seems. At least he won't be lonely, though, Zelda's right down there with him.

 

[ZeusLink]

Lucario without aura mechanics is automatically bottom tier in my opinion.