SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

[dawall250]

one of the best places to rack up insane amounts of damage on marth is when he's on the ledge. fsmashing the ledge covers almost every option marth can do except drop to dj to counter (though i have never seen this used very effectively), or full hop. if he tries to drop to dj to fair/nair after an fsmash you can shieldgrab relatively easily. if he gets up and shields, the fsmash will push him back onto the ledge. if he rolls after a fsmash he will end up in front of you. his ledge attacks are nowhere near close enough to you. if you can predict the jump you can easily get a bair or fair to get him back offstage.

 

[Vionce]

Avoid marthlandBattlefield. I'd rather go to stages like FD or Frigate Orpheon, I've heard people like Brinstar, but I dunno I'm not sure I really like that stage all that much against Marth.

The slopes of brinstar can mess up marth's short hop double f-air game. Marth's up-b has crap horizontal so if he's under the stage sometimes he won't be able to get back up and die. Even if he does get back up (by using up-b to go through the stage), he'll be in helpless and you can fsmash or something. The lava also helps prevent gimps. The somewhat awkward positions of the plats help set up for b-airs and u-airs.

 

[Shaya]

I don't think Lucario's fsmash is so bad...

I consistantly time tippered nairs to have the 19 frame sweetspot killing Lucario at about 110% fresh from centre stage (FD) even with god-like DI.

Otherwise I don't think I know the match up enough/that well. I just try to beat them up in the air, bait dairs, slash them off stage, and lol as I kill them as they try to roll/fsmash with nair.

 

[iRJi]

I don't think Lucario's fsmash is so bad...

I consistantly time tippered nairs to have the 19 frame sweetspot killing Lucario at about 110% fresh from centre stage (FD) even with god-like DI.

Otherwise I don't think I know the match up enough/that well. I just try to beat them up in the air, bait dairs, slash them off stage, and lol as I kill them as they try to roll/fsmash with nair.

Well, to my knowledge, if Lucario is dying at 110 from a tipped nair at the center of FD, he isn't properly DI'ing. Taking of course the example being me surviving to longer percents in similar situations.

Also, you are right about Fsmash not being as bad as people are making it to be. It is a move that Marth can get around quite decently, it's just that most people fail in attempt too because they are doing it improperly.

Anyway, stages.

Of course, you do not wanna play on battlefield, unless you are nutty as me. Strike/ban this stage. I like to take Marth to YI and Lylat, but Lylat is a good stage for marth as well. I just like Platforms when I play.

For the actual hardcore solid stages, this is what it will normaly look like.

Good Stages to play on:

FD
YI
Frigate
Smashville

Bad stages to play on:

BattleField
Lylat
Rainbow Cruise

My thoughts on Brinstar:

My personal feelings about Brinstar is that it is Lucario's worse stage overall against any character, hence why I never recommend this stage. The close quarters neglects Lucarios freedom to move around and time his spacing appropriately, and the close quarters blast zones makes his survivability less. I do like how the stage is set up in terms of platforms, but outside of that I hate this stage for Lucario, does not matter what character you are a playing against (Unless its like Falco or fox lol)

 

[Browny]

shaya, play against better lucarios k?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v671/metakirby/185295.jpg

now look at that goddam hitbox and tell me marth can land a nair while not being caught in the attack. If youre landing a nair after the fsmash is completed and it missed, well thats completely different. might as well argue lucarios fair is a legit punisher for marths fair if me misses it lol.

your argument implies the marth nair is not reactionary, it was pure prediction on your part. you can not possibly see a lucario begin the fsmash and have enough time to FH over the thing and drop a nair. more examples? I guess nair is now legit punisher for snakes utilt. you cant react to it, just predict it, hope snake misses with it. thats your only chance to punish it with a nair. (I mean hitting him with only the 4th hit)

flip it around and now lucario is the one predicting. he predicts marth will go for the FF nair, so take a tiny step backwards and begin the fsmash there.

im not saying nair isnt a good move to use in this situation but by god it is NOT a counter to fsmash in the same way ddd's shieldgrab, diddys glidetoss-combo and any fast upb oos is a counter to lots of smashes in this game.

 

[Shaya]

I'm in the air already,
I see/hear Lucario start up fsmash.
I start nair at the same time,
I fast fall into them as the move ends, I win.

I'm pretty sure I've done it to you too Browny.
It's completely reactionary.

And no nair will not beat the disjoint of Lucario's fsmash, I never said that either.
Nair has the versatility of baiting someone to attack you (something characters will often try to do rather than let the move hit their shield at which point theres nothing they can do) and hit them in their cool down.

It works against MK's fsmash too, but is a lot harder... lol

Marth should not be throwing out aerials in an attempt to whiff.
With 4 frame aerials against range such as Lucario, Marth should always be the one REACTING to Lucario's movements.

 

[iRJi]

I'm in the air already,
I see/hear Lucario start up fsmash.
I start nair at the same time,
I fast fall into them as the move ends, I win.

I'm pretty sure I've done it to you too Browny.
It's completely reactionary.

And no nair will not beat the disjoint of Lucario's fsmash, I never said that either.
Nair has the versatility of baiting someone to attack you (something characters will often try to do rather than let the move hit their shield at which point theres nothing they can do) and hit them in their cool down.

It works against MK's fsmash too, but is a lot harder... lol

Marth should not be throwing out aerials in an attempt to whiff.
With 4 frame aerials against range such as Lucario, Marth should always be the one REACTING to Lucario's movements.

Which is why I said earlier that this MU is nothign but a baiting game, because that is what Lucario is aiming to do as well. Assuming something of the sort is not really a reliable option, and by doing so it kind of plays on theory. In most cases, if you used Nair to punish a reaction on Nair, it could work. On the other hand, it works vise versa as well.

 

[Browny]

I'm in the air already,
I see/hear Snake start up utilt.
I start nair at the same time,
I fast fall into them as the move ends, I win.

Is this so different?

You being in the air BEFORE luc starts the fsmash (obviously being the only time you can land a nair quick enough) and lucario continues to fsmash is a failure on the lucarios part, no different to snake attempting to utilt an aerial approach and missing. assuming nair as a counter to fsmash is assuming that lucarios fsmash is the only thing he is going to do when marth approaches, once again exactly the same as snakes utilt. if the lucario doesnt use fsmash whenever marth is in front of him, how can you counter it then? you're not always going to be at full hop height without a full charge Aura sphere between you can lucario

 

[phi1ny3]

Guyz...
I tested Lucario ftilt a bit on some marths

It's aweeeesome!

 

[iRJi]

Guyz...
I tested Lucario ftilt a bit on some marths

It's aweeeesome!

=D. Its like sex, but with aura =D

 

[Fizzle]

this MU is nothign but a baiting game

^^ Yes.

Marth's whiffed moves can (and should) be punished with ftilt. If Marth misspaces a ff fair in front of you, ftilt can catch his extended hurtbox.

And, Stauffy, do you think I don't know Marth's fsmash isn't punishable? The point I was trying to make is that Lucario can actually space himself OUTSIDE Marth's sword range and ftilt him. Any other option by Lucario at that range isn't fast enough. Ftilt is a great punisher in this MU.

Watch his set with Pierce if you think otherwise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U7Z77v7GQc&feature=related

Fsmash is still good in this MU, but Marth has an easier time getting around it than others (better aerial mobility plus counter). And, trust me, it's not that difficult to counter on reaction to a move with 21 frames of start-up lag. Sure, Marth could just shield, but like most characters at max range he can't do anything oos to punish it.

I still think this is 60-40 (due to Marth's superior offense and edgeguarding) but I'd like to hear from others first.

 

[phi1ny3]

The same argument against counter is the one Ksizzle and I have been stressing about making fsmash less PSable:
"You're in charge of releasing it, not your opponent".
That being said, this discussion of fsmash charging and such will get convoluted real fast, as Lucario is looking for the fair in order to fsmash, and Marth is looking for the fsmash to counter.
btw guys, roll is a really good tool in this MU, as long as he isn't grounded and you use it like you're supposed to.
Also yes ftilt is really good in this MU. The timing/spacing is tighter though.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

^^ Yes.

Marth's whiffed moves can (and should) be punished with ftilt. If Marth misspaces a ff fair in front of you, ftilt can catch his extended hurtbox.

And, Stauffy, do you think I don't know Marth's fsmash isn't punishable? The point I was trying to make is that Lucario can actually space himself OUTSIDE Marth's sword range and ftilt him. Any other option by Lucario at that range isn't fast enough. Ftilt is a great punisher in this MU.

Watch his set with Pierce if you think otherwise:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U7Z77v7GQc&feature=related

Fsmash is still good in this MU, but Marth has an easier time getting around it than others (better aerial mobility plus counter). And, trust me, it's not that difficult to counter on reaction to a move with 21 frames of start-up lag. Sure, Marth could just shield, but like most characters at max range he can't do anything oos to punish it.

I still think this is 60-40 (due to Marth's superior offense and edgeguarding) but I'd like to hear from others first.

Pretty sure I saw more fsmashing than ftilting in that vid. >>
Eh, from the looks of it it may be more useful than I gave it credit for. But it's not "your best move in this matchup."

 

[iRJi]

Final Stages, Thoughts, and MU numbers please.

Mine is 60:40 Marth

 

[hichez50]

Guyz...
I tested Lucario ftilt a bit on some marths

It's aweeeesome!

It is Its really cool when you fight an overly aggressive marth.

 

[culexus・wau]

60-40 Marth's favor

Flat Stages are the best to fight marth at
FD
SV
Picto?

I do believe Marths don't like the water on japes but I think he can control the middle platform well enough for it not to be a favorable stage.

Castle Siege is Marth favor begining, Still Marth's favor unless you get rid of the platforms, and then Luc's favor on the final stage. Not a favorable stage by any means but if its say finals and you can't take him to your other 2 CPs it might be a good stage. try and see.


By the way did Lee ever get to posting here? I am really curious to see why he believes its our favor.

 

[phi1ny3]

Frigate imo is good, just make sure on the 2nd transformation that you secure the middle dip, that's like one of the best positions.

 

[hichez50]

I wouldn't recommend picto chat. You have a better chance than marth to get vertical k.O. I would only choos this stage if you know your opponet has little to know expirence on pictochat.

 

[culexus・wau]

Why wouldn't you recommend Picto? for half of the match its a flat stage akin to FD and its fairly large, and marth kills us vertically more often anyway so it'd be nicer to have that ceiling.

The only thing that worries me is some of the platform formations but those are only half in the match and each one only comes up ONCE <<

 

[iRJi]

Don't forget to add your match-up numbers please =]

 

[phi1ny3]

Marth usmash alone is probably more versatile/viable than our vertical killing methods, although our uair gets pretty ridiculously powerful at high percent. Same can be applied to marth utilt when fresh, which can kill in the 110% range easily.

 

[Shaya]

Wow browny... you clearly have no idea when the difference in start up between the two moves is like what? 1/3rd of a second?

jeeeezzzzzz

And Marth handles Snake in a lot different matter in terms of aerial approaching than he would Lucario.

 

[hichez50]

Marth usmash alone is probably more versatile/viable than our vertical killing methods, although our uair gets pretty ridiculously powerful at high percent. Same can be applied to marth utilt when fresh, which can kill in the 110% range easily.

Ive only played really really good marth's online( I realize that marth suck online) and from my expirence with them you can usually bait out a up tilt or a up smash if you really want to. I don't recommend it but nair, dsmash and fmash are all adequate and have a high hit rate on lucario.

 

[phi1ny3]

Wow browny... you clearly have no idea when the difference in start up between the two moves is like what? 1/3rd of a second?

jeeeezzzzzz

And Marth handles Snake in a lot different matter in terms of aerial approaching than he would Lucario.

Seriously do that "fly DJ to better tournaments" fund, he could probably get way better if he went to bigger tourneys.

 

[tedward2000]

Ya know, that match up numbers on the front page say the same numbers, but im sure during this redo of the MU's, some of them have changed.
*cough Phil cough*
<3
-t2

 

[DMG]

Marth is gay.

55:45. I don't like this matchup, that's why I go Wario and run away like an A Hole.

 

[iRJi]

Final Mu numbers please everyone.

 

[Browny]

I am reminded why I hate swf so much.

and no, phil. you dont quite get how much things cost in aus... $300 at least for the next few months.

 

[phi1ny3]

Ya know, that match up numbers on the front page say the same numbers, but im sure during this redo of the MU's, some of them have changed.
*cough Phil cough*
<3
-t2

RJ does the chart, but I'm doing the exports, and he said he wouldn't update it until I get a move-on with the exports

Marth is gay.

55:45. I don't like this matchup, that's why I go Wario and run away like an A Hole.

Wait, 55:45 their favor or ours? Remember that there's someone respectable in your region that thinks otherwise, so one can't be too sure, although I'm sure you mean Marth's favor.

 

[Browny]

wait why is DMG giving numbers on lucario vs marth, do you play lucario now :O

also, which matchups do you not apply that style to lol?

 

[Kitamerby]

Go to frigate against Marth.

You must.

It is your destiny.

I've actually heard some people recommend Brinstar, though. I'll need to ask them about that again.

 

[IceDX]

marth is gay!! 60/40 Marth, No better IMO

 

[iRJi]

Ok, Since I have said it 3 times atleady, and people are completely disreguarding the fact I am asking for MU numbers, I am giving it until 4 PM EST, before we move onto our next MU. Please,

GIVE ME YOUR MU NUMBERS =D

 

[HK Donut of the Blue Fire]

Definately 6:4, marth has alot of things going for him that we dont, we have AS and a few moves but we generally have to catch him at punishable times and even then =/ the mafka can Up-B

 

[red_comet]

Agree with 6:4 marth, I can only seem to kill marth with well timed extreme hogs if I can force them to recover low.

 

[-Ran]

Personally, I'd wait until Lee came here and posted, or until after this weekend where I can talk to him and write down his notes.

 

[iRJi]

Personally, I'd wait until Lee came here and posted, or until after this weekend where I can talk to him and write down his notes.

Well, that's the thing. Since it gets exported, it later can be changed to what ever number would be appropriate. But until then, we have to move on because its been past the limit of this character. We still have things we need to get done, and their is plenty of information that has been gathered to make an analysis.

Everyone, please continue with the MU numbers. Only about 3 hours before I change it.

 

[iRJi]

Double posting.

This Mu is over, 60:40 Marths favor. If anyone has extra information they want to add, wait until the export comes out for it. It will be out soon.

I am going over the Mu list that I have, and comparing it to the information that we need to go over, and it seems that DK is still nailed on the button, so we can skip DK since it is not really needed. We have 2 MU left that are a must, and then we are going to go over a new project for the boards.

The 2 last MU's are

Mr. Game and Watch
Ice Climbers

Of course, I heard that people want to go over ROB too. Although it is not exactly needed, I Do not have a problem going over him after the top 2 are done.

Guys, the faster we go over this, and the more we participate, the faster we can go into new projects that can help benefit everyone. I strongly encourage everyone to participate 100%.

Our next MU is GW. Go

 

[phi1ny3]

Finally, mofo G&W has changed a tooooooooooooooooon since we last discussed him.

lern2techandSDIscrub=gg

 

[iRJi]

Mm. A Matchup I actually have to sit out on. Ill wait and see what everyone says about it, since I am not too great with this MU.