Simple facts that you may not know...

[The Star King]

You can "drop" Hearts and Maxim Tomatoes when getting hit, too. It's clearly a bug, which explains why it never happens in newer installments.

Speaking of dropping items, does anyone know the logic involved in determining that? Sometimes I pick up an item and it drops on the first hit, and other times I keep it in my hand and take multiple hits before it goes away.

Think it's just RNG, same as Kirby losing copied abilities

 

[Studstill]

People really should stop saying RNG. Everything has a percent chance of happening; that doesn`t mean a coin flip is the same as a dice roll, nor should you describe 'things that have a chance of happening' as "RNG". It`s intellectually abhorrent.Ok, Anti-"RNG, bro" rant over.
"Clearly a bug", Sakurai shames you!
It isn`t a bug, it happens in two different ways:
A) If you hit someone while they are grabbing the item (haven`t tested but from experience this is at most a 2 frame window, and if you think it similar to edge grabbing then it is most likely 1 frame.)
B) If you hit someone while they are holding an item
Now, I don`t recall seeing any numbers on this, I`ll check the bible again, but:
Some percentages (chance per hit) disclaimer = iirc, being lazy, plus SK used RNG so he should check it.
Kirby losing power (8%)
Chance of item container explosion (12.5%)
Ok now total experience based conjecture:
Way A : Is one frame long and has 100% success rate, identical to the frame where you are grabbing the ledge.
Way B : This is most likely 12.5%, as it seems to happen at about that rate however I wouldn`t be surprised if the math had a factor to account for 'swings' or 'uses' , and I think that it shoots up after a thing is exhausted, maybe to 100%.

 

[BananaBolts]

What about items disappearing upon impact when they're dropped. Do you know the percentile chance for that? Of course Link's bomb doesn't disappear but does the 12.5% apply to its chance of being dropped?

Fun Fact: Although I can't testify as to what causes a soft hit from a bomb, if Link tosses a bomb up in the air and it hits an opponent softly (without explosion), the bomb can fall from any height without exploding upon impact with the ground.

 

[Cobrevolution]

according to sk's testing last night, kirby will lose a copied ability ONLY if the move causes tumble. so that condition has to be fulfilled first, it seems, before the random removal

and

testify as to what causes a soft hit from a bom

tilt throw vs smash throw, isn't it?

 

[BananaBolts]

tilt throw vs smash throw, isn't it?

I've seen a smash throw reach the apex of its throw and it hit softly.

Another thing. I read somewhere that Kirby had increased chances of losing the copied ability if he was hit by the character (maybe player) from whom he copied it.

 

[Annex]

And you can soft throw a bomb from the top of hyrule and it'll still blow up
I think it's based on speed at the time of its first impact. If it survives its first impact it won't blow up unless rethrown. I think

 

[Shears]

And you can soft throw a bomb from the top of hyrule and it'll still blow up
I think it's based on speed at the time of its first impact. If it survives its first impact it won't blow up unless rethrown. I think

I think it is speed dependent but is it really only dependent on first hit? I feel I've seen a bomb explode on second hit.

Test for SK or whoever, get bomb to make first hit soft than fall into a second hit hard and see if it explodes. If you throw a bomb softly at someone on top of Hyrule and then it falls all the way to the bottom, would it not blow up?

I'm certain explosion is dependent on speed but didn't know it only mattered on the first hit.

 

[Cobrevolution]

calling @asianaussie

 

[BananaBolts]

If you throw a bomb softly at someone on top of Hyrule and then it falls all the way to the bottom, would it not blow up?

I've seen this before and it doesn't blow up if it made contact with another character. The bomb that I saw had fallen from the top platform of Hyrule down to the lowest stage section.

 

[Kimimaru]

DK's Down B is the only special move in the game that can't be used in the air.

 

[Cobrevolution]

thanks kimi

i guess the more detailed response would be that dk's downb cannot hit any opponents in the air either, which may also be unique but i'm unsure...can jpuff's sing catch you in the air?

it can, however, hit opponents on different levels (dk on top plat of DL, someone on side plat will get hit by downb)

 

[KnitePhox]

thanks kimi

i guess the more detailed response would be that dk's downb cannot hit any opponents in the air either, which may also be unique but i'm unsure...can jpuff's sing catch you in the air?

it can, however, hit opponents on different levels (dk on top plat of DL, someone on side plat will get hit by downb)

jiggly sing doesn't affect opponents in the air; though if jiggs is in the air and the opponent is standing, the opponent can be put to sleep IIRC

 

[Annex]

it can, however, hit opponents on different levels (dk on top plat of DL, someone on side plat will get hit by downb)

dumb info: usually Kirby is too short for that to work on it but it will work if Kirby turns around while on the side plat since that animation involves putting its hands above its head and standing on its toes which just barely hits it

 

[Studstill]

Lots of knowledge droppping, man awesome! Little technical wrap up:

1. Ya Jiggly sing has requires the target to be on the ground, the move functions normally otherwise. That is to say that if a hurtbox interacts with a hitbox it will connect.

2. DK Down B also needs the target state to be of the 'on the ground' variety, and has the additional requirement of needing DK to be on the ground to perform or simply has no air version, however you`d like to say it. Again, as with above, if the hurtbox of a character on the ground, regardless of if it`s the smae surface as DK, is in teh hitbox of the move, it will connect.


2. To be hyper technical, you can`t do almost any B moves (ground) while in the air, as they almost all have subtle differences. Frames in Fox B is an obvious example, and Kirby Up B from the ground is higher than in the air, for a more subtle change.

3. The bomb is an item; not a projectile. It`s about the bombs momentary speed and the 'strength' of what it is interacting with. It is governed by item physics, but has semi-unique characteristics that cause more of the 'soft' type interactions* to happen. Characteristics like the lower weight of the bomb, the low knockback of the bomb (not the explosion), and the relatively low velocity of a non smash throw. The data is still a little fuzzy on the some of finer points of this interaction and item/hitbox interactions/physics in general, but you could put it simply as:
[Bomb Speed at Hitbox Impact Moment] x [Total Knockback Properties** of the Hitbox it impacts] = X
And if X is too great the bomb will explode. Hitbox in both instances above can refer to Hurtboxes as well.

If it survives its first impact it won't blow up unless rethrown. I think

Yes, I`m sure that`s usually correct in practice, but not as a rule. I`d say it`s merely a fluke that 99% of non first interactions would be of the type that produced an explosion as a result of the above 'formula'.

4. Bomb/item speed is determined by how fast it is going at that moment, so really all bombs thrown upwards have a set of frames they can be 'pushed' or interacted with without explosion. Much in the same way as the functionally correct conclusion Annex drew, it is just a rare and usually staged set of circumstances that cause a non upwards thrown bomb or almost all non-smash thrown bombs to not result in an explosion.

4. More experience-based conjecture: The item disappear when dropped rate is probably identical to this from above:
"Way B : This is most likely 12.5%, as it seems to happen at about that rate however I wouldn`t be surprised if the math had a factor to account for 'swings' or 'uses' , and I think that it shoots up after a thing is exhausted, maybe to 100%."

5. I don`t have any idea what differentiates a move that causes "tumble" with one that doesn`t.

6. The percentage chances of Kirby`s ability, as long as I am stating them correctly, come from the Bible. It has nothing to do with what player`s ability was taken.

* Like 'RNG' and exactly like 'weak' hit, I don`t think 'soft' should be used to describe interactions. This terminology is vague and leads to false conclusions as it isn`t clear what of multiple factors is responsible for the 'soft/weakness' or what the actual odds are of something occuring per situation as is blurred when using 'RNG'. In this case of determining how to explosionlessly strike a bomb it could be staleness affecting any given hitbox, or the ending or beginning hitboxes of moves that have transitional strength, i.e. different hitbox stats at different times/places, or even character speed!

**There is a personal concept, that of 'move strength', that is what should actually be in this 'formula' but it has a bunch of variables and is generally a fuzzy metric. Mostly a function of total knockback, damage, fixed to variable knockback ratio, transitional power analysis (whether or not it`s strong all the way through, etc), , speed, and almost most importantly reach. You can substitute your own 'move strength' ideology in here, assuming it`s more or less accurate, then it should allow you to predictably not explode bombs.

 

[Studstill]

Specifically, @ The Star King can you explain what you tested in terms of the game and not some weird genre language that involves "tumbling". Also, is it possible to request that the first response to this not be some pointless gibberish from one of the confused less experienced players that merely restates the exact thing that is wrong?
Edit: Oh well, I guess not.

 

[Cobrevolution]

tumble is being knocked down. so fox's laser, for instance, will never take away kirby's copy, nor will luigi's upb coin.


soft/weak are perfect terms to describe what happens to moves, and there's nothing really vague about how they happen, or even why.

 

[BananaBolts]

5. I don`t have any idea what differentiates a move that causes "tumble" with one that doesn`t.

"Tumble" is a state of flight through the air after you have been hit by a move with enough "strength" to invoke it. The tumble animation leaves you or the opponent helpless since it's impossible to do any action out of tumble with the exception of teching. The time that the tumble animation is active is presumably calculated from a move's total knockback, damage, and set variable knockback. (move staleness is also a notable factor that affects this calculation)

Speaking of move staleness, how is move staleness calculated? Is it a result of reduced move stats globally or is it a set multiplier that changes if it was used (e.g. multiplier of 1.0 -> *uses move* -> multiplier of 0.95)?

@ Madao I don't know if you or anyone else has access to these formulas but any help would be appreciated.

 

[Cobrevolution]

Speaking of move staleness, how is move staleness calculated? Is it a result of reduced move stats globally or is it a set multiplier that changes if it was used (e.g. multiplier of 1.0 -> *uses move* -> multiplier of 0.95)?

http://smashboards.com/threads/stale-moves-the-exact-numbers.318124/

 

[Madao]

Lol @ S Studstill ! What's wrong with the term "RNG". It's exactly what it is.

@ BananaBolts A lot of the game formulas have been discovered already. Lol I thought people just didn't care, but I guess it's not always easy to find, when a lot of these threads aren't on page 1. Google ftw though . Anyway, here's a good thread http://smashboards.com/threads/compilation-of-technical-frame-data.325142/ . I even wrote a knockback calculator, although it's not 100% complete. It's pretty good though.

RNG was one of those things I never got around to fully figuring out. I found the seed & RNG formula for stuff like the tornado or wind, but couldn't find anything related to items/pokeballs lol.

 

[Cobrevolution]

any updates on that landing lag from upb stuff, madao?

 

[Studstill]

"Tumble" is a state of flight through the air after you have been hit by a move with enough "strength" to invoke it. The tumble animation leaves you or the opponent helpless since it's impossible to do any action out of tumble with the exception of teching. The time that the tumble animation is active is presumably calculated from a move's total knockback, damage, and set variable knockback. (move staleness is also a notable factor that affects this calculation)

Everyhting you just said is accurate except for that garbage about "tumble", don`t let the sloppy people infect you. Staleness is totally known.

 

[Cobrevolution]

can you not be a complete douchebag for one post

 

[Studstill]

Ugh. Flaming.

 

[yOLORIN]

you're in the wrong here studstill, stop being so f'ing self-righteous, it is sickening.

 

[Cobrevolution]

just so everyone knows, studstill said: can you not **** kids in your mother's basement, ****ing aspie.

 

[Studstill]

you're in the wrong here studstill, stop being so f'ing self-righteous, it is sickening.

Wrong about what lol. And yeah, Rob is a pedophile aspie douchechoadbearpig, is that better Ducky?

 

[Studstill]

To be clear, I`m trying to state things technically, to be most representative of the 1s and 0s that make up this game, so when you talk about higher level concepts like "being knocked down" or "soft/weak" without understanding that the game has no IDEA what you are talking about is stupid. It`s just stupid. Because it`s vague to the point of inaccuracy.
I don`t give a **** how many people use this term or that term, I hate to have to tell you this, but "people" tend to be ****ing morons. Just look at Rob. Just spouts things secondhand and doesn`t care if he gets it wrong, lmao.

 

[Cobrevolution]

the game doesn't know anything because it isn't sentient. You are quite literally the most ignorant person in this community.

 

[Madao]

I love how @ S Studstill didn't even respond to my post. I wonder why . I'll ask again, what is wrong with the term RNG? What is a better term for it? I also see nothing wrong with using the term tumbling.

any updates on that landing lag from upb stuff, madao?

Haha sorry, I tend to procrastinate sometimes. I just get preoccupied I guess. Thanks for the reminder.

I just now tested a few characters. Will edit later after i finish it. Basically, for any character that has 2 numbers, the left is the landing animation when you land after your UP B animation is finished, and the 2nd number is if you land during the Up B animation. It was less of a hassle than I thought it would be .

fox - 12
link - 13, 40
samus - 20
falcon - 17, 4
pikachu - 20

 

[Studstill]

Look, it repeats my point back to me!
Madao, you didn`t respond, lol, you just asked me to repeat what I just typed.
Neither of you have any point at all. Again:
People really should stop saying RNG like it has some meaning. Everything has a percent chance of happening; that doesn`t mean a coin flip is the same as a dice roll, nor should you describe 'things that have a chance of happening' as 'RNG'."
What was your response? LOL.

 

[Cobrevolution]

I love how @ S Studstill didn't even respond to my post. I wonder why . I'll ask again, what is wrong with the term RNG? What is a better term for it? I also see nothing wrong with using the term tumbling.

Haha sorry, I tend to procrastinate sometimes. I just get preoccupied I guess. Thanks for the reminder.

I just now tested a few characters. Will edit later after i finish it. Basically, for any character that has 2 numbers, the left is the landing animation when you land after your UP B animation is finished, and the 2nd number is if you land during the Up B animation. It was less of a hassle than I thought it would be .

fox - 12
link - 13, 40
samus - 20
falcon - 17, 4
pikachu - 20

FOUR FRAMES FOR FALCON

ARE YOU ****ING JOKING ME

how's pika only have one? why sometimes does pika hop it seems, but others he lands perfectly fine?

also studstill nobody agrees with you stop

 

[Kimimaru]

Again:
People really should stop saying RNG like it has some meaning. Everything has a percent chance of happening; that doesn`t mean a coin flip is the same as a dice roll, nor should you describe 'things that have a chance of happening' as 'RNG'."

RNG stands for "Random Number Generator." In games, it is referred to when the computer chooses a pseudo-random number (NOT truly random, as computers are deterministic) and relies on it for some particular function. The seed value used for the RNG is often influenced by the CPU's clock cycles and player input.

When you say something is based on RNG, you're implying that it's based on this pseudo-random number the computer generates, which is very unlikely to be under a player's control unless the player in question is manipulating the RNG (Ex. a TAS). How exactly doesn't it have any meaning?

 

[Deleted member]

So, there's not many threads that have much activity here, so I'm bringing a thread from the Melee boards down here to the 64 boards. Influenced from Lovage's thread located here, this is a thread for you to note tiny things that other players may not know.

Thread rules:

1. 1. Don't post just to say something along the lines of "Everyone knows that" unless it's something very, very obvious (like "Luigi jumps higher then Mario").
2. 2. Don't post stupid, obvious facts. Make sure at least SOME experienced players don't know about it.
3. 3. Look to make sure something hasn't already been posted before you post.
4. 4. Discussing the fact's are allowed, but don't get too off topic.

So, I'll go ahead and start with one that I found recently that I'm surprised I haven't found already:

If you stand on the very edge of the bottom platform in the center section of Hyrule with Captain Falcon and Falcon Kick to the right, you'll land perfectly on top of Isai's house.

Jigglypuffs crouch can evade full charged projectiles and some tall characters grabs.

 

[Madao]

Look, it repeats my point back to me!
Madao, you didn`t respond, lol, you just asked me to repeat what I just typed.
Neither of you have any point at all. Again:
People really should stop saying RNG like it has some meaning. Everything has a percent chance of happening; that doesn`t mean a coin flip is the same as a dice roll, nor should you describe 'things that have a chance of happening' as 'RNG'."
What was your response? LOL.

Lol i also asked what a better term would be. I felt your argument was inadequate so I wanted to give you a chance to present your argument better. It seems I've overestimated you . I was waiting to see if you'd mention the fact that "RNG" is not truly random, but instead all you talk about is coin flip and dice roll xD. Even programmers use the term RNG. I'd rather not have to be tedious and say stuff like PRNG instead of RNG lol..

FOUR FRAMES FOR FALCON

ARE YOU ****ING JOKING ME

how's pika only have one? why sometimes does pika hop it seems, but others he lands perfectly fine?

I was surprised too, about falcon. This whole time I never realized xD. I also thought pika would have 2 numbers. I haven't done extensive testing, so there might be 2 numbers for pikachu, I'll just have to keep trying I guess.

 

[sman865]

Jigglypuffs crouch can evade full charged projectiles and some tall characters grabs.

I'm pretty sure only Kirby can crouch under samus's charge shot...I'm assuming that's what you meant since it's the only projectile you can charge in this game. (Note: nobody can crouch under a kirby charge shot stolen from samus).

Anyway,

7 characters can make it from the edge of dreamland to a side platform with a ledge hop. They are: Luigi and the entire bottom row of the character select screen. Of course, Ness, Yoshi, Kirby, and Jigglypuff are obvious. I was surprised that pikachu could. Kirby and Jiggz take two jumps to do it.

 

[Cobrevolution]

that's a pika staple imo, same with fox

moreso with pika cuz ledgehop uair is so absurdly broken against anyone who tries to edgeguard by standing on the side plat

and i think big kirby can't duck a charge shot

 

[Studstill]

@ Madao I didn`t bring it up because it has nothing to do with my point, but thanks for "explaining" RNG. The chances of an item being dropped, Kirby losing his power, the tornado location, whether or not a box will explode, what pokemon will fly by or what pokemon will come out, all of these and many more have fixed percentage chances of occurring.
Words and concepts that are not interchangeable but similar and therefore should be avoided:
Random, Random Generated Number, Random Number Generator (formal), Random Number Generator, psuedo-random number, etc etc.
Where the tornado is:
Goofus: "RNG, slobber rawrr"
Gallant: In one of four locations.

As far as I know Kirby has a few different frames of crouch and that 1 or more of them is almost non-existent, getting under most grab boxes and/or moves.

 

[Cobrevolution]

and yet nobody agrees with you

as usual

 

[McGodd]

The words used to describe things in the game really don't matter. People should focus more on their gameplay as opposed to how things happening on screen are represented in text form.

7 characters can make it from the edge of dreamland to a side platform with a ledge hop. They are: Luigi and the entire bottom row of the character select screen. Of course, Ness, Yoshi, Kirby, and Jigglypuff are obvious. I was surprised that pikachu could. Kirby and Jiggz take two jumps to do it.

This is actually really cool, I didn't know several of those honestly.

 

[The Star King]

@ Madao I didn`t bring it up because it has nothing to do with my point, but thanks for "explaining" RNG. The chances of an item being dropped, Kirby losing his power, the tornado location, whether or not a box will explode, what pokemon will fly by or what pokemon will come out, all of these and many more have fixed percentage chances of occurring.
Words and concepts that are not interchangeable but similar and therefore should be avoided:
Random, Random Generated Number, Random Number Generator (formal), Random Number Generator, psuedo-random number, etc etc.
Where the tornado is:
Goofus: "RNG, slobber rawrr"
Gallant: In one of four locations.

I obviously didn't know the exact odds for item dropping, otherwise I would've said what it was when I was responding to Kimimaru. Kimimaru asked what causes item drops, and I told him: RNG. That's literally what determines whether the item drops or not. I really don't know what you expect me to say and I don't see how anyone can have a problem with that.