Shulk custom moveset discussion 2.0

[Berserker.]

Well... That discussion blew up. So... we're talking about Advancing air slash, Decisive arts (again), and dash vision? Alright then. I'll post my thoughts later

I'll also post my own custom set soon

Summon the @ChronoPenguin , @SiLeNtDo0m

 

[Piford]

It is default. I Power Vision a Ganon's B-Reversed Warlock Punch & it deals 50% while OHKO'ing him at 0%. As for Hyper Buster, the highest damage I've dealt is doing the same thing I just typed but with Hyper Buster + Forwarded Power Vision, which dealt 84%. I'm not sure if there's a move stronger than Ganon's B-Reversed Punch since it deals 37% but yeah.

Reverse Warlock Punch would only do 84%, you'd need something stronger to hit the cap of 88% (Like Bucketing 3 PK Flashes ), that being said since I doubt we're ever going to counter anything stronger than a reverse warlock punch in an actual match I think it's fine and we can assume it caps at 88%.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Power Vision or Dash Vision?
I currently run a set of
Hyper Arts
Back Slash Charge
Mighty Air Slash
Power Vision
Thoughts?

 

[Berserker.]

3213 (Glass cannon set)

Hyper Monado Arts
Back Slash Leap
Air Slash
Power Vision

Air slash is a safe recovery but... I'll try looking into Advancing Air Slash more. Hyper arts is dangerous if you can use it correctly and utilize each art properly. Power vision is self explanatory. Back Slash leap is a personal preference. This set purely revolves around hyper arts. There isn't really much to say about it. You can interchange back slash leap into back slash if you want

If you can use this set right, you can call this set: "The reason why 3 stocks should be a standard"

Power Vision or Dash Vision?
I currently run a set of
Hyper Arts
Back Slash Charge
Mighty Air Slash
Power Vision
Thoughts?

Hyper arts and power vision are really good

Mighty air slash is greaaat but hard to land. It's a good recovery especially with jump/DJump/HJump and it KO's at low percentages. Although air slash/AAS KO's earlier, that only applies if you're near the edge. Mighty air slash KO's vertically so that's something to take note of. One crippling problem about Mighty Air slash is that it has short range and it's difficult to get the 2 hits to connect. It only consistently connects if you hit air borne opponents

Back slash charge.... Meh. The front hit hitsun is really bad and the super armor is inconsistent. I prefer back slash leap.... Surprisingly. It comes out faster and you can surprise players with it while you're in mid-air. Tbh, back slash customs don't matter that much since the design simply can't work that well in a 1v1 setting so.... eh

 

[VentusAlpha]

Back slash charge.... Meh. The front hit hitsun is really bad and the super armor is inconsistent. I prefer back slash leap.... Surprisingly. It comes out faster and you can surprise players with it while you're in mid-air. Tbh, back slash customs don't matter that much since the design simply can't work that well in a 1v1 setting so.... eh

It's the horizontal distance of BSC that makes it appealing. Super armor and hit stun aside, it can actually make B-Throw > back slash a viable combo at high percents or potential kill move. It can also help you recover if you're high in the air and in a bind. The super armor, although inconsistant, could ward off the opponent from interrupting your recovery. And I still need to mess with BSL so I can't comment on that right now.

Edit: BSL is better paired with Hyper Buster but I'm still not a fan of it. Also, platforms could get in it's way a lot and block potential combos so I would personally stick with BSC.

Edit 2: Actually, it doesn't even work well with Hyper Buster after some more experimentation. High percents knock the oppenent to far away (75 to 90%) and they land on their feet after a B-Throw letting them attack.

 

[Splash Damage]

I have done some tests on the boosts of the three Art Options, and recently made a few tables about some:

Amt. of time taken to run across vanilla battlefield=

No Art|Speed|Decisive Speed|Hyper Speed
1.69|0.97|0.86|~0.82-0.84

Damage taken from a Ganon U-tilt=

No Art|Defense|Decisive Defense|Hyper Defense
28%|18%|16%|15%

I will be performing a few more tests and will likely make videos showing these off in full.

 

[erico9001]

3213 (Glass cannon set)

Hyper Monado Arts
Back Slash Leap
Air Slash
Power Vision

Air slash is a safe recovery but... I'll try looking into Advancing Air Slash more. Hyper arts is dangerous if you can use it correctly and utilize each art properly. Power vision is self explanatory. Back Slash leap is a personal preference. This set purely revolves around hyper arts. There isn't really much to say about it. You can interchange back slash leap into back slash if you want

I think normal back slash is more common to use than back slash leap. The project for the sets is to find the customs combination which is most common, thus reducing the amount of time needed in a tournament for people to import their individual sets from the 3ds.

With normal back slash instead of leap, that is a set I use. My name for it is similar to yours, basically "op set." 3113. I think this is to be a fairly common set.
-------------------------------------
Sets likelihood:

At this point in the game, default moves are to be the most likely.
1111. This is a default option, so does not need to be on the list.

Typically, it will be the case that the most common custom sets are as close to that as possible
1113 - Simply power vision. You have the moves you are most used to, and power vision increases the power of your vision. Just be sure not to use it too often.
3111 - Simply hyper arts. You like hyper arts.
**I don't think decisive arts are common (even though I like them.)**
1121 or 1131 - Either AAS or MAS, I'm not sure which is more common
**Back Slash customs are not usually used.**
3113 - OP Set
3121 or 3131 - hyper + AAS or MAS - hyper arts with a preference for up B
3123 or 3133 - hyper + AAS or MAS + Power vision - OP Set with a certain preference for up B

That's 6 slots. The last two slots... idk yet.

I have done some tests on the boosts of the three Art Options, and recently made a few tables about some:

Amt. of time taken to run across vanilla battlefield=

No Art|Speed|Decisive Speed|Hyper Speed
1.69|0.97|0.86|~0.82-0.84

Damage taken from a Ganon U-tilt=

No Art|Defense|Decisive Defense|Hyper Defense
28%|18%|16%|15%

I will be performing a few more tests and will likely make videos showing these off in full.

The run speeds are very useful. The damage reduction is not needed, as all the damage multipliers have already been worked out (can be found in the second post of this thread.)

edit: Oh wait, you're doing battlefield. Could you do FD maybe? That's usually the standard for measuring distances. That's what I used for all my speed recordings of the normal monado arts.

I was curious, so I tested the speeds of Shulk's movements. I measured how long it takes for each form of movement to get across Final destination, one end to the other. I checked each multiple times to make sure the results are consistent.

Rolling (same for all modes (tested just to be sure)) - 2.35s

Monado Shield running - 3.16s
Shield walking - 4.6s

Jump/Buster/Smash/Vanilla (neutral) running - 1.90s
Jump/Buster/Smash/Vanilla (neutral) walking - 2.77s

Speed running - 1.2s
Speed walking - 1.7s

Monado Jump jumping (short hop then aerial jump) - 1.91s

Interesting findings:
-The speed difference between Monado Jump jumping and Neutral running is insignificant.
-Rolling is much slower than speed running/walking, much faster than monado shield running, and a little slower than neutral running.
-Speed walking is faster than neutral running (though also keep in mind it has lower acceleration)

 

[Piford]

I think normal back slash is more common to use than back slash leap. The project for the sets is to find the customs combination which is most common, thus reducing the amount of time needed in a tournament for people to import their individual sets from the 3ds.

With normal back slash instead of leap, that is a set I use. My name for it is similar to yours, basically "op set." 3113. I think this is to be a fairly common set.
-------------------------------------
Sets likelihood:

At this point in the game, default moves are to be the most likely.
1111. This is a default option, so does not need to be on the list.

Typically, it will be the case that the most common custom sets are as close to that as possible
1113 - Simply power vision. You have the moves you are most used to, and power vision increases the power of your vision. Just be sure not to use it too often.
3111 - Simply hyper arts. You like hyper arts.
**I don't think decisive arts are common (even though I like them.)**
1121 or 1131 - Either AAS or MAS, I'm not sure which is more common
**Back Slash customs are not usually used.**
3113 - OP Set
3121 or 3131 - hyper + AAS or MAS - hyper arts with a preference for up B
3123 or 3133 - hyper + AAS or MAS + Power vision - OP Set with a certain preference for up B

That's 6 slots. The last two slots... idk yet.


The run speeds are very useful. The damage reduction is not needed, as all the damage multipliers have already been worked out (can be found in the second post of this thread.)

edit: Oh wait, you're doing battlefield. Could you do FD maybe? That's usually the standard for measuring distances. That's what I used for all my speed recordings of the normal monado arts.

We want to put the ten best sets, not the 10 most used sets. These will likely be the same but making sets as close to 1111 as possible is a huge waste. Like I don't think a single set should use Default counter as Power Counter is significantly better as far as I can tell. I feel like the sets should probably look like this

1113
1313
1123
1133
3113
3313
3123
3133
1112
2113

but obviously this is missing a lot of sets that could be used such as

1323
3323
1213
3213
1333
3333
2313
1312

I think making a good list of customs is gonna be tricky and we should find a way to best make that list.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

My personal preferred set is 1213/1223. Back Slash isn't a great attack no matter which variant you pick, but there is a meaningful decision to be made between them to the point that I don't think we should just flat out ignore it or at the very least we should decide which of the three is the most useful throughout matchup spreads.

 

[erico9001]

We want to put the ten best sets, not the 10 most used sets. These will likely be the same but making sets as close to 1111 as possible is a huge waste. Like I don't think a single set should use Default counter as Power Counter is significantly better as far as I can tell. I feel like the sets should probably look like this

1113
1313
1123
1133
3113
3313
3123
3133
1112
2113

but obviously this is missing a lot of sets that could be used such as

1323
3323
1213
3213
1333
3333
2313
1312

I think making a good list of customs is gonna be tricky and we should find a way to best make that list.

No, the community wide custom moveset project is mostly for saving tournament time.

We need to find out what's most common so that we have the least amount of people needing to import their custom builds from their 3ds's during a tournament. We want to get as close to that 99% of people as possible.

This won't be quite so easy with Shulk, as the preferences are much more varied than other characters. For Shulk, there isn't a single move that is just 'this is crap, should not be used.' We're going to need to make sacrifices, keeping in mind the ultimate goal is satisfying the most people as possible. We all need to keep in mind that we may be the ones having to import our own sets at the tournaments, and that's alright.

Hey @ Berserker. , do you think you could update the link in the op to this?: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-standard-custom-moveset-project-initial-release.381395/

 

[Piford]

No, the community wide custom moveset project is mostly for saving tournament time.

We need to find out what's most common so that we have the least amount of people needing to import their custom builds from their 3ds's during a tournament. We want to get as close to that 99% of people as possible.

This won't be quite so easy with Shulk, as the preferences are much more varied than other characters. For Shulk, there isn't a single move that is just 'this is crap, should not be used.' We're going to need to make sacrifices, keeping in mind the ultimate goal is satisfying the most people as possible. We all need to keep in mind that we may be the ones having to import our own sets at the tournaments, and that's alright.

Hey @ Berserker. , do you think you could update the link in the op to this?: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-standard-custom-moveset-project-initial-release.381395/

I sorta phrased it wrong, but also right. Since EVO isn't allowing uploads and many other large tournaments aren't either, we want to make sure the best sets are available to the people. That being said, if a set is "technically" better than other sets but no one is going to use it, we should use the sets thats more used over the sets that aren't. If two sets are used equally, we should take the one that's better over the one that's worse.

So what I'm saying is we shouldn't use any sets with default counter since the only people who would want to use that over Power Counter are going to be very new players who think spamming it is a good idea. Those same players are also going to want to use default most likely, so having sets 3111, 1121, 1131, 3121, and 3131 are bad ideas since no one is going to use them since they are worse. Players are going to want to use the best sets; especially the players who are going to be attending more events and placing higher which are the ones we care about most since they would take the most time uploading custom sets.

 

[erico9001]

I sorta phrased it wrong, but also right. Since EVO isn't allowing uploads and many other large tournaments aren't either, we want to make sure the best sets are available to the people. That being said, if a set is "technically" better than other sets but no one is going to use it, we should use the sets thats more used over the sets that aren't. If two sets are used equally, we should take the one that's better over the one that's worse.

So what I'm saying is we shouldn't use any sets with default counter since the only people who would want to use that over Power Counter are going to be very new players who think spamming it is a good idea. Those same players are also going to want to use default most likely, so having sets 3111, 1121, 1131, 3121, and 3131 are bad ideas since no one is going to use them since they are worse. Players are going to want to use the best sets; especially the players who are going to be attending more events and placing higher which are the ones we care about most since they would take the most time uploading custom sets.

They are only allowing 10 sets at EVO, no ports?!?! Argh, the pressure!! XD. This sucks for Shulk users, as we have such varied preferences. I guess people may just have to get stuck with things.

I say yes to your power vision > vision proposal.

 

[Piford]

They are only allowing 10 sets at EVO, no ports?!?! Argh, the pressure!! XD. This sucks for Shulk users, as we have such varied preferences. I guess people may just have to get stuck with things.

I say yes to your power vision > vision proposal.

Yeah and we have to decide those sets by March 17, so we have a lot to figure out.

 

[VentusAlpha]

PV is undoubtedly better than SV. But what would it be paired with then? Hyper arts are the first that comes to mind. Then what to do for the rest of the moves? How about we use AAS for recovery and just leave BS alone. 3123 should be a fairly good set. My reasons as to why is because AAS is easier to hit with and kill with than MAS and with Hyper Smash it can kill anywhere on stage albeit at not so welcome percents (158% on Donkey Kong, 3DS Battlefield.) and if used right Hyper Buster could rack up damage really well. This looks to be a great Glass Cannon set. Great recovery options, able to deal damage and accelerate the game state. Any thoughts on this as we should really just start sticking to one set at a time given the time frame.

 

[Splash Damage]

edit: Oh wait, you're doing battlefield. Could you do FD maybe? That's usually the standard for measuring distances. That's what I used for all my speed recordings of the normal monado arts.

Sure thing, I'll get on that now.

 

[Berserker.]

2113 should remain as a set up for the customs list. It's for those Shulks who like to play on "easy mode"

Basically, this focuses on being able to stay in speed and buster for majority of the match. Decisive buster's shield safety is much better than default buster's which makes using DBuster a lot safer. Decisive speed.... Sseaks for itself. The way you use both arts remains similar to how you use them with default arts. You can try using buster to rack up damage then use speed to land the KO... or, you can just focus on using speed for 100% of the match. It's your choice.

 

[VentusAlpha]

I agree that there should be some simpler sets for those who want it. 2113 is a good set for those who are new to the competitive scene. Not much to learn so it's easy to pick up. It's also a good set in general as it covers a good amount of options.

 

[Masonomace]

Reverse Warlock Punch would only do 84%, you'd need something stronger to hit the cap of 88% (Like Bucketing 3 PK Flashes ), that being said since I doubt we're ever going to counter anything stronger than a reverse warlock punch in an actual match I think it's fine and we can assume it caps at 88%.

Yeah I did some labbing with this & came to the same result that Hyper Buster's cap is 88%.
════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
About Back Slash Charge aka BSC (before I dismiss it & talk about sets perhaps)
-Distance | ★★★★★ (5/5)
-Range | ★★★★★ (5/5)
-Super Armor | ★★★☆☆ (3/5)

Distance
So the distance is for sure fantastic. To put this to perspective, imagine yourself trying to use Back Slash from a mid-far distance to go for a landing punish, with their back exposed to you. Now imagine the Back Slash barely missing them by a hair even though the tipper area of Back Slash is oh-so close. If you felt bad, don't worry about it, because Back Slash Charge would of put Shulk much closer to hit with the red Monado blade itself (11%) compared to the Back Slash you almost hit with (14% if you were airborne hitting with the Beam or 13% if you landed on the ground tippering). The distance is definitely a core reason we'd use this Custom, including the other qualities BSC possesses.

*A tip* = If you find yourself overshooting distance, then utilize reversing the BSC's direction in the middle of your leaping animation to reduce the distance you commit to. This helps you with controlling the position so that your landing slide will look shorter. And finally, you can also delay reversing your direction if desired.
(Example #1: You start pressing BSC to the left but you're a bit close that you might not hit them, so you reverse your direction by tapping to the right & then tap left again, aka WaveBouncing when doing it in a quicker manner)
(Example #2: You're facing right & want to BSC to the left, so you BSC to the right first & then tap to the left, aka B-Reversing when doing it in a quicker manner)

A Conclusion: Monado Arts do not affect BSC's distance it travels when charging forward or when BSC is falling down. But one thing that's interesting is the Speed Arts reduce the distance you slide across the floor, which may or may not tickle your fancy. Their increased traction could make Shulk safer because he won't be over-extended but could ruin the sliding hit-box's range since you travel less distance.

Range
The range of BSC is mostly clouded by how far the distance is, which is understandable hence BSC emphasizes on the charge. However, BSC's range ties in with the distance, & it's range greater than BS or BSL because Shulk landing on the ground & sliding across the floor / terrain is also a hit-box too (not all of the Monado is a hit-box while sliding though). For a reference, this sliding hit-box can hit someone after they roll or spot-dodge as well. And like I said above in Distance, a Speed Art reduces the range of the sliding hit-box, which can be either good or bad depending on how high the traction increase decreases the slide length (Hyper Speed really makes BSC come to a stop, meanwhile Speed doesn't reduce the slide by too much).

Super Armor
This is what I'm really feeling about BSC. I haven't gotten the full gist of BSC's Super Armor like per-say how many frames it lasts or if there's more Super Armor near the end of the falling, but the duration I'm seeing is not so bad (it could be better or worse). Putting Shulk's SA frames in BSC to the test, I figured out that he gets Super Armor the moment you input the move (I won't flat out say it starts at Frame 1, so I'll leave that to the datamining). To figure out when exactly the SA frame window ends, I had a Shulk collect the 3 Daybreak Parts & create the DayBreak & timed the laser hit accordingly to BSC's startup & see where it ends. I don't have pictures or video, but basically when the Monado swung overhead starts showing that after-effect dragging a trail in this color. That's around the exact moment Shulk loses Super Armor (or for an easier example, Shulk wielding the Monado directly above him facing right, the Monado is positioned sideways with a bit of that dragging trail to it).

Basically, I see the Super Armor getting utilized for those tight moments you need it for when you're coming to the stage & need to BSC against a charging smash attack after being ledge-trumped, or a terrifying move like Ganon's Warlock Punch or his U-tilt. BSC would charge through the festery & think nothing of it. This also favors trading moments you'd rather take damage than dying, so I say go for it.

 

[Splash Damage]

edit: Oh wait, you're doing battlefield. Could you do FD maybe? That's usually the standard for measuring distances. That's what I used for all my speed recordings of the normal monado arts.

No Art|Speed|Decisive|Hyper
1.89|1.10|~1.00|0.95

Heres ya go.
Edit: I did some labbing with the Speed forms and I believe that the Dash-pivot grab distances are all the same, despite the increase in running sped

 

[VentusAlpha]

(Example #1: You start pressing BSC to the left but you're a bit close that you might not hit them, so you reverse your direction by tapping to the right & then tap left again, aka WaveBouncing when doing it in a quicker manner)

I had no idea you could B-reverse multiple times in the air...you learn something knew everyday.

Anyone else want to say anything about any particular move before we continue?

 

[Master Of Blades]

Guys... AAS can waveland on Battlefield's lower platforms. No joke.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

You still end up with the landing lag though, if I recall correctly, so it's not SUPER handy. One cool thing that happens though is if you use the second slash of an edge JUST right Shulk does a really fast free-fall. Again, it doesn't seem terribly useful, but cool. WHY DOESN'T THIS MOVE EDGE-CANCEL DANG IT?!

 

[erico9001]

The first strike of advancing air slash stage spikes.

I was playing matches with @ Masonomace and noticed the the first hit of AAS caused him to bounce off of the side of omega kalos pokemon league, effectively killing him. Intrigued, I brought it up to him and we tested it out.

We tried out if it would stage spike on Final Destination, Battlefield, and Smashville. It worked on each of them. Furthermore, it stage spiked both Shulk and Marth while both characters were already hanging off the ledge! A strategy that works is, when an opponent is hanging from the edge, run off of it and do a reverse air slash. ->>Stage spike. Especially good in Monado Speed.

edit: Here's the thing about this stage spike. Air Slash has a set knockback, so the opponent's damage does not matter much. I emphasize much, as it is slightly better at higher damages, and I'm not sure why.

edit: Monado jump does not make it better (although, it is easier to land).

 

[VentusAlpha]

The more we find out about AAS, the more I start to like it over MAS and AS.

This move will probably be a part of most of the sets at this rate.

Also Manado Jump makes stage spiking better? Why would that be the case? Shouldn't stage spiking be determined by knockback and by extension Manado Smash? I find that to be rather curious.

 

[Berserker.]

9 days until the 17th. So... Any set suggestions? I gave mine already

3123
2113
3233

 

[Piford]

9 days until the 17th. So... Any set suggestions? I gave mine already

3123
2113
3233

1113
2113
3113
1313
3313
1123
3123
I feel like all those sets are the most important. What's the benefit of 3233?
Another thing is it seems dash vision deserves a set, but what moves would go best with it?

 

[erico9001]

The more we find out about AAS, the more I start to like it over MAS and AS.

This move will probably be a part of most of the sets at this rate.

Also Manado Jump makes stage spiking better? Why would that be the case? Shouldn't stage spiking be determined by knockback and by extension Manado Smash? I find that to be rather curious.

Oh. Actually, never mind about that. I figured that monado jump increased the base knockback to compensate for the increased height. However, I was wrong about that.

 

[Piford]

So does Advancing Airslash not connect if used with the jump monado?

 

[John12346]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
1113 3113 1213 3213 1313 3313 1123 3123 2113 3233

It seems like you guys are handling your discussions quite well, so this post is a little redundant. For the most part the above list is a culmination of what you guys are agreeing on currently, but if I had to guess these sets will probably end up changing a good deal within the next few days. I look forward to seeing what you come up with!

Spoiler: Notes taken during preliminary creation of sets

1/3, 1/2/3, 1, 3 and some niche sets
1113 3113 1213 3213 1313 3313
Niche: 1123 3123 2113 3233

 

[Piford]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
1113 3113 1213 3213 1313 3313 1123 3123 2113 3233

It seems like you guys are handling your discussions quite well, so this post is a little redundant. For the most part the above list is a culmination of what you guys are agreeing on currently, but if I had to guess these sets will probably end up changing a good deal within the next few days. I look forward to seeing what you come up with!

Spoiler: Notes taken during preliminary creation of sets

1/3, 1/2/3, 1, 3 and some niche sets
1113 3113 1213 3213 1313 3313
Niche: 1123 3123 2113 3233

Yeah Shulk's is definitely gonna be one that's finalized at like 11:59 March 17.

 

[VentusAlpha]

It's so hard to agree on what's really the best because it really comes down to personal preference.

Edit:

1113
2113
3113
1313
3313
1123
3123
I feel like all those sets are the most important. What's the benefit of 3233?
Another thing is it seems dash vision deserves a set, but what moves would go best with it?

2322 would be that set. DMA for the extended Speed, BSC for the distance and slight SA, AAS because it would complement the almost always on Decisive Speed for recovery reasons, and Dash Vision because it would be about stage control and doing the quick version of the vision would act as a way of getting away in very tight situations and if you can read your opponent that well. Tech chases would be taken care of with this as well.

Edit 2:

1322 would be for those who would like to have a bit more versatility, and for those who would like a bit more fire power, 3233.

 

[Piford]

It's so hard to agree on what's really the best because it really comes down to personal preference.

Edit:



2322 would be that set. DMA for the extended Speed, BSC for the distance and slight SA, AAS because it would complement the almost always on Decisive Speed for recovery reasons, and Dash Vision because it would be about stage control and doing the quick version of the vision would act as a way of getting away in very tight situations and if you can read your opponent that well. Tech chases would be taken care of with this as well.

Edit 2:

1322 would be for those who would like to have a bit more versatility, and for those who would like a bit more fire power, 3233.

I'm thinking default monado arts would be best unless there's something really good about hyper vision's added kill power that synergises well with dash vision. I don't think extended speed makes dash vision better, unless it somehow furthers the distance of the dash. We can't warrant more than 1 set for Dash Vision so we need to make sure its the best.

 

[Splash Damage]

Heres my take on Shulk's customs:

IMO, the priority for Monado Art customs goes like this:Normal, Hyper, Decisive. Normal is the best overall, Hyper has plenty of Niches especially as a counterpick, and I honestly can't see many uses for DMA, though I'm sure some of the Shulks here know more than I on that topic. I'd say that Normal Monado arts should get 4-5 sets, HMA should get 3-4, and DMA 2-3.A
As for the Backlslash variants, I'd say that Charge is the best due to the super armor and the ability to extend the situational uses of the somewhat unknown back throw to backslash combo. In reality, though, none of the backslashes are spectacular moves anyway, so it really comes down to MU and preference. I'm sure we can agree with that. I'd say Charge on 4 sets and Leaping/Normal on 3.

On the buzzing topic of Air Slash, I'd say that Default is the best IMO. AAS seems to be superioir as an OoS option for damage paired with Buster, but not very much else besides a very rare stage spike post-ledge trump. Default AS has so much more utility while retaining its ability to not only damage OoS with Buster, but also carry opponents to the blastzones during Jump edgeguards, apply pressure and stay safe with Shield by dropping from the ledge and repeatedly using the first slash and regrabbing ledge, and even killing opponents who are trying to offensively recover by using AS OoS with Smash on. Though, there is very clearly some love for AAS, so there may be a few more things I don't know. I'd say 6-7 for AS, 3-4 for AAS, and maybe 1 for Mighty. Shulk simply cannot pass up having a ranged OoS option, and the damage from mighty is much less that worth it.

Little to say about counters. 3 is indisputably the best. Maybe 2 as a niche.

1/2/3-1/2/3-1/2-3
That gives us the following 15 sets:
1113
1213
1313
1223
1323
2113
2213
2313
2223
2323
3113
3213
3313
3223
3323

That's 5 too many. I'm almost certain that we can denounce 5 sets among these that are not synergetic, so if anyone knows any sets that should definitely be cut or should definitely be kept, input would be great. My votes for necessity sets are the basic ones:
1113
3113
2113

 

[Berserker.]

1113
1213
1313
1223
1323
2113
2213
2313
2223
2323
3113
3213
3313
3223
3323

We can live without the sets that were crossed out

1113
2113
3113
1313
1223
1323
3213
3313
3323

 

[Splash Damage]

We can live without the sets that were crossed out

1113
2113
3113
1313
1223
1323
3213
3313
3323

Alright, then that leaves 1 more possibly niche set. Should we opt for a Dash Counter set or Mighty Air Slash set?

 

[Berserker.]

We should opt for dash vision for a set that would be used against campers

1312

Default arts/Back slash charge/Air slash/Dash vision

 

[erico9001]

I definitely agree with either 1123 or 1223. I need my AAS and power vision. I'm not sure about that back slash custom.

On the buzzing topic of Air Slash, I'd say that Default is the best IMO. AAS seems to be superioir as an OoS option for damage paired with Buster, but not very much else besides a very rare stage spike post-ledge trump. Default AS has so much more utility while retaining its ability to not only damage OoS with Buster, but also carry opponents to the blastzones during Jump edgeguards, apply pressure and stay safe with Shield by dropping from the ledge and repeatedly using the first slash and regrabbing ledge, and even killing opponents who are trying to offensively recover by using AS OoS with Smash on. Though, there is very clearly some love for AAS, so there may be a few more things I don't know. I'd say 6-7 for AS, 3-4 for AAS, and maybe 1 for Mighty. Shulk simply cannot pass up having a ranged OoS option, and the damage from mighty is much less that worth it.

AAS has better recovery, especially while in monado shield. You need to get used to not going low. Generally, the move is much safer than AS (and definitely MAS) due to how it does not reduce your air mobility after use. You can travel half the distance of FD in neutral arts while grounded, and a little over that in Jump or Speed (Speed is actually better here, though). The move has great range, and the second strike can hit tall, grounded opponents even if the first hit misses. It does snap to the ledge once you use the second slash, unlike AS and MAS. The stage spike is a bonus for dealing with low recoverers or when you ledge trump.

A disadvantage is it has a little bit worse vertical recovery. Another is it cannot be used to attack people who are as high up as when you're in AS. Also, following a ledge trump, normal AS has the capability to detatch from the ledge and reverse air slash the opponent. In AAS, this is only possible with monado speed, delaying the two hits, and drifting backwards between the two hits. However, the capability to stage spike makes up for the lack of this.

Default AS has so much more utility while retaining its ability to not only damage OoS with Buster

You'll likely be punished for this with an aerial, an issue AAS does not have.

but also carry opponents to the blastzones during Jump edgeguards,

AAS can do this

apply pressure and stay safe with Shield by dropping from the ledge and repeatedly using the first slash and regrabbing ledge

AAS's first slash goes the same height, so can still do this. Actually, due to the lower angle that the first slash of AAS makes, it would be better for doing this.

even killing opponents who are trying to offensively recover by using AS OoS with Smash on.

Again, AAS can still do this. From the way edge, you will normally grab the ledge after using AAS and drifting backwards. If you delay the two hits while drifting backwards (which still true combos), you will land on the ground.

 

[Masonomace]

Also, @ Masonomace , don't you have a custom stage that can be used to measure range of moves? I'm wondering if AAS has more range than normal AS on its first strike. I think this must just be my mind playing tricks on me, though.

Just to make sure I didn't miss this, I too wondered about that so I got to testing it. I didn't really see a range difference.

So does Advancing Airslash not connect if used with the jump monado?

I was curious about this as well because the DI angle in the 1st hit of Advancing Air Slash sends them lower than the other Air Slashes.

To an extent, Jump Shulk using AAS at close range can still hit an opponent with the 2nd hit but you won't be able to hit them if you're trying to space the 1st hit by hitting from a farther distance. The farther it reaches from, the shorter the launch angle height becomes. The result becomes worse when a player holds left or right to DI away from the 2nd hit following after the 1st, including if a player crouches before being struck by the 1st hit in order to reduce the knockback's DI angle height. . .though I'm being nit-picky about the move's safety so it's not too much of a issue atm. Anyways, if you wanna connect both hits of AAS with a Jump Art activated then don't use Hyper Jump. Hyper Jump Shulk goes too high unless you're doing it to a very floaty character like Jigglypuff.

Anyone else want to say anything about any particular move before we continue?

I would say more about some of the customs but I think we have the gist down for all of Shulk's Customs & of their primary functions they bring to Shulk's table. I'm ready for discussing sets.

The first strike of advancing air slash stage spikes.

I was playing matches with @ Masonomace and noticed the the first hit of AAS caused him to bounce off of the side of omega kalos pokemon league, effectively killing him. Intrigued, I brought it up to him and we tested it out.

We tried out if it would stage spike on Final Destination, Battlefield, and Smashville. It worked on each of them. Furthermore, it stage spiked both Shulk and Marth while both characters were already hanging off the ledge! A strategy that works is, when an opponent is hanging from the edge, run off of it and do a reverse air slash. ->>Stage spike. Especially good in Monado Speed.

edit: Here's the thing about this stage spike. Air Slash has a set knockback, so the opponent's damage does not matter much. I emphasize much, as it is slightly better at higher damages, and I'm not sure why.

Indeed. I was happy with this result coming from AAS even at low percentage. I'm glad that the 1st hit of AAS has a knockback DI angle worthy of stage-spiking a character & the only thing they can do to prevent the stage-spike at early percentage is to hold diagonally away from the stage:
Example #1: They're ledge-hanging on the right side, so they'll hold
Example #2: They're ledge-hanging on the left side, so they'll hold

For this stage-spiking strategy, it's worked on every character without using any DI in Training Mode except for Shield Shulk, but that's understandable until enough knockback is gathered from Smash + Rage effect perhaps (not sure, since it is set knockback).

 

[Splash Damage]

I definitely agree with either 1123 or 1223. I need my AAS and power vision. I'm not sure about that back slash custom.

AAS has better recovery, especially while in monado shield. You need to get used to not going low. Generally, the move is much safer than AS (and definitely MAS) due to how it does not reduce your air mobility after use. You can travel half the distance of FD in neutral arts while grounded, and a little over that in Jump or Speed (Speed is actually better here, though). The move has great range, and the second strike can hit tall, grounded opponents even if the first hit misses. It does snap to the ledge once you use the second slash, unlike AS and MAS. The stage spike is a bonus for dealing with low recoverers or when you ledge trump.

A disadvantage is it has a little bit worse vertical recovery. Another is it cannot be used to attack people who are as high up as when you're in AS. Also, following a ledge trump, normal AS has the capability to detatch from the ledge and reverse air slash the opponent. In AAS, this is only possible with monado speed, delaying the two hits, and drifting backwards between the two hits. However, the capability to stage spike makes up for the lack of this.

I definitely agree with either 1123 or 1223. I need my AAS and power vision. I'm not sure about that back slash custom.

AAS has better recovery, especially while in monado shield. You need to get used to not going low. Generally, the move is much safer than AS (and definitely MAS) due to how it does not reduce your air mobility after use. You can travel half the distance of FD in neutral arts while grounded, and a little over that in Jump or Speed (Speed is actually better here, though). The move has great range, and the second strike can hit tall, grounded opponents even if the first hit misses. It does snap to the ledge once you use the second slash, unlike AS and MAS. The stage spike is a bonus for dealing with low recoverers or when you ledge trump.

A disadvantage is it has a little bit worse vertical recovery. Another is it cannot be used to attack people who are as high up as when you're in AS. Also, following a ledge trump, normal AS has the capability to detatch from the ledge and reverse air slash the opponent. In AAS, this is only possible with monado speed, delaying the two hits, and drifting backwards between the two hits. However, the capability to stage spike makes up for the lack of this.

You'll likely be punished for this with an aerial, an issue AAS does not have. AAS can do this AAS's first slash goes the same height, so can still do this. Actually, due to the lower angle that the first slash of AAS makes, it would be better for doing this. Again, AAS can still do this. From the way edge, you will normally grab the ledge after using AAS and drifting backwards. If you delay the two hits while drifting backwards (which still true combos), you will land on the ground.

The ability to recover more horizontally is mostly unnecessary, as the combination of Jump monado's aerial momentum boosts and the sheer vertical height gained when using both of default AS's hits almost guarantees that he will be recovering. In my experience, there has almost never been a time where i was unable to recover with Shulk whenever I executed this properly(I accidentally hit Speed a lot), and it is typically easy to mix up your recovery with either Charging Backslash or by just using the up B earlier.
The ability to AS/AAS OoS w/Smash art on to punish people recovering with an attack is more safe with AS, as they both kill at nearly identical percents at the very ledge due to the fact that AAS sends you a bit farther ahead(85% w/AS, 80% w/AAS), and AS simply sends you upward, enabling you to land on the stage and not be at the risk of losing stage control if the opponent survives with good DI. AAS, at the ideal position for this, forces you to grab ledge and go through a getup animation, and possibly even miss the ledge and SD(Thuis has happened in testing, and it doesn't take much missed drifting to miss the ledge.
It has been said before in the thread that Shulk can possibly miss the second hit of AAS when in Jump mode when he's too close, and due to the smash 4 grab-from-six-years-away ledges, missing the final hit of a Jump edgeguard and letting any character with a decent recovery return to the stage just fine while you lose a stock is not something that can be gambled on.
As for the shield mode ledge regrab tactic, I admit that AAS is better in that regard, as well as the Buster OoS.
TL;DR: I do and have admitted that AAS has its uses that I don't know of, but it is not great at doing what AS can do and appears to have less practical uses. It will likely be necessary for certain MUs I admit.

 

[Masonomace]

It has been said before in the thread that Shulk can possibly miss the second hit of AAS when in Jump mode when he's too close, and due to the smash 4 grab-from-six-years-away ledges, missing the final hit of a Jump edgeguard and letting any character with a decent recovery return to the stage just fine while you lose a stock is not something that can be gambled on.

Correction, Shulk can possibly miss the 2nd hit of AAS in Jump mode when he's farther away. The farther away you are hitting with the 1st hit of AAS, the lower the DI angle becomes. This is to change with character MUs since lighter, floatier characters are launched higher. And AAS is perfect for them.

Edit: What if I told you that the 2nd hit of AAS advanced can contest against gimping tools like Mario's fully charged F.L.U.D.D. at close range, & can even survive by drifting towards the stage after the water finishes?

It's a problem for Shulk when he's gimped upon using Air Slash or Mighty Air Slash because he can't auto-snap the ledge with AS or MAS unless it was the startup of the 1st or the 2nd slash. Stage-spiking Shulk becomes less of a chore once you know how Shulk recovers with Air Slash even if he reverses the direction of AS to contest against walk-off ledge-guarding. This is a good reason to use AAS because you don't get forced or need to recover from low when you utilize AAS' 2nd slash to edge-guard break & grab the ledge safely. I should also say that a well-spaced & timed AAS can slash the ledge area with the 2nd hit & grab the ledge very shortly after even when it's countered by a Shulk's Dash Vision. This is something neither AS nor MAS can do because they always rise up in their 2nd slash.