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Showcase of Power v3.6: The Ganondorf Video Thread

Spralwers

Spralwers

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Boiko

Boiko

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Spralwers said:
Went to NY this past weekend. Footage:

Vs Boiko (Ness, I lose 1-2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=779EPe1AojA&index=3&list=PLHCmvg6-Qf-1a6ssS2O9dsmF16dd7QOzo

Vs Darkblues (Bowser, Ike, I win 2-0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YpA2cE_h64&list=PLHCmvg6-Qf-1a6ssS2O9dsmF16dd7QOzo&index=8

I had a match with Phresh at PM Extravaganza the following day but for some reason that didn't get uploaded ;-; maybe it got lost or something. I lost 0-2 tho.
Click to expand...
If you ask the TO to upload the set he will. Sometimes the commentators don't hit "start recording" so he doesn't have a video of it, and only a stream VOD, which he has to manually clip.
 
Doctor Aids

Doctor Aids

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Spralwers said:
Went to NY this past weekend. Footage:

Vs Boiko (Ness, I lose 1-2)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=779EPe1AojA&index=3&list=PLHCmvg6-Qf-1a6ssS2O9dsmF16dd7QOzo

Vs Darkblues (Bowser, Ike, I win 2-0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YpA2cE_h64&list=PLHCmvg6-Qf-1a6ssS2O9dsmF16dd7QOzo&index=8

I had a match with Phresh at PM Extravaganza the following day but for some reason that didn't get uploaded ;-; maybe it got lost or something. I lost 0-2 tho.
Click to expand...
I ended up commentating your set with Phresh but the mic was off for the first half of the set so that kinda sucked, I did try to give you some advice in that MU though.

Also my ditto with Poob from the same tournament was finally uploaded https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFfJbBMqkR0
I ended up winning 2-1 and the games were pretty close.
 
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Bazkip

Bazkip

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Got a few sets on stream last night

vs MM | GNDLF (Link) - https://youtu.be/3deT5Mnozmc
Mannnnnn screw aerial Wiz Foot hitbox

vs MM | Hunter (Samus) - https://youtu.be/Wp7yZVPutr4
rekt this guy :p
My edeguards were garbo though, the round before I played another Samus and did a much better job. Ah well, didn't really matter.

vs Carlil (Roy) - https://youtu.be/6hm-sVR9yOg
I'm never gonna kick this panic Wiz Foot habit ;_;

Ended up placing 4th. Pretty happy with that, though I could've done better.
 
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CORY

CORY

wut
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Bazkip Bazkip I got tired of getting paid to do math homework at work so I checked out your link match. It mostly went as expected (rip : /) but the entire time I was feeling super cramped because of fod. It just feels super stifling in that matchup. I think bf might've been better to give yo u more maneuvering space to set up and get around his projectiles.

Also, you kept falling for "frame trap into usmash". Like, you would get him in shield, land a hit where he couldn't safely grab, then jump and dair or something, and he'd just be all " lol usmash" and catch you. Or the other way around, he's let you think there was an opening, goad you to jump, then catch you with it.

A lot of the match you were playing rather careful, otherwise, so maybe look out for those situations and work another line of action out? Like, if you know he's going for a usmash bait, try to safely ftilt or get close enough to jab or something?
 
Bazkip

Bazkip

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CORY said:
Bazkip Bazkip I got tired of getting paid to do math homework at work so I checked out your link match. It mostly went as expected (rip : /) but the entire time I was feeling super cramped because of fod. It just feels super stifling in that matchup. I think bf might've been better to give yo u more maneuvering space to set up and get around his projectiles.

Also, you kept falling for "frame trap into usmash". Like, you would get him in shield, land a hit where he couldn't safely grab, then jump and dair or something, and he'd just be all " lol usmash" and catch you. Or the other way around, he's let you think there was an opening, goad you to jump, then catch you with it.

A lot of the match you were playing rather careful, otherwise, so maybe look out for those situations and work another line of action out? Like, if you know he's going for a usmash bait, try to safely ftilt or get close enough to jab or something?
Click to expand...
...isn't cramped what we want in this matchup? Means he has less room to projectile at us all day cause we're right in his face, no? Am I thinking about this wrong?
 
CORY

CORY

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Sorry, I forgot to reply when I was at home ><

Yeah, we want to try and choke him out, but he's probably only as mobile as we are, at best, so you don't need to worry so much about hard running away.

But he also has a sword and his game plan is to make you approach through a projectile wall then use disjoint to make you feel bad about yourself.

I'm mostly going off of how it looked in your match, where the link was stifling you with link stuff. It felt like you didn't have as much space to work on navigating around his walla, so you were almost forced to accept bad situations more often, rather than play patient.

It might also be lower matchup experience, on either my end (so I'm misreading situations) or on your end (so you're misplaying situations) and the stage could be fine ;x
 
Bazkip

Bazkip

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CORY said:
Sorry, I forgot to reply when I was at home ><

Yeah, we want to try and choke him out, but he's probably only as mobile as we are, at best, so you don't need to worry so much about hard running away.

But he also has a sword and his game plan is to make you approach through a projectile wall then use disjoint to make you feel bad about yourself.

I'm mostly going off of how it looked in your match, where the link was stifling you with link stuff. It felt like you didn't have as much space to work on navigating around his walla, so you were almost forced to accept bad situations more often, rather than play patient.

It might also be lower matchup experience, on either my end (so I'm misreading situations) or on your end (so you're misplaying situations) and the stage could be fine ;x
Click to expand...
I've got most of my wins against him on that stage
Hasn't been working lately though so I guess I could try out BF?
 
CORY

CORY

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got a couple more from our 1k regional. the quality is **** because the recording setup was bugging out, so i'm not even going to bother with my own play by play, but i can at least see issues i'm having with matchups as a whole, if nothing else.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYOU4z_VdN4&index=1&list=PLcBCVav4xxQ7CV3aFtB082asA3P5CCW6D CORY vs. Hard Reid (ZSS)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EYdeuCHk5I&list=PLcBCVav4xxQ7CV3aFtB082asA3P5CCW6D&index=14 CORY vs. Darkgun (Lucario)

against the zss i like to try and roll behind him if he crosses me up, i think i fixed it a bit later in g2, but it's pretty bad. i also fall for him running up and nairing after i reflect his blaster. ever. damn. time. i caught onto it and tried to space better but i think i need to just bait out his nair with shield and go from there (think this is just a player knowledge deal). i also need to REALLY ****ing learn how to properly ledge drop stall. i don't think i ate too many dsmashes in this video, but i was constantly missing my invinc timings and eating stuff all day long when it should never happen. i also need to work on proper zss edgeguard technique, which i think is mostly just grinding out (i should be waiting out the tether jump and then on reaction going for a ledge hop uair or (if first reel in) wait it out and try for the 2nd time around, at which point i'm more likely to be able to just ledge hop uair or just straight ledge stand and grab-thing).

against lucario. ... lolz, i have no idea what i'm doing. anyone have any good general lucario advice? i think i try to space grounded pokes, but feel like it doesn't work so i get annoyed and start jumping more than i should. and i think you're supposed to literally roll your stick in circles when he hits you for random sdi to keep him from being able to read you and continue his combo, but ganon might be too big for that (and the counterplay might have evolved and refined to something better than random stick rolling ;x)
 
CheCray

CheCray

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I play against Double on the regs and let me tell you this matchup is pretty sucky. Once you get your hands on Lucario it's pretty straight forward, not too hard to 0-death. But Lucario is so ****ing slippery, getting your hands on him is really difficult. My best advice is working on wavelanding in and disrupting their dash dance with an attack. Maintain whatever stage control you have with a wall and when Lucario DD's trying to find the timing to go in, waveland in and poke with and ftilt/jab/whatever.

This matchup sucks because of the Itty bitty disjoint that lucario has really ****s with flame chokes. Lucario can challenge flame choke reliably without me grab armoring through it. Wiz kick does the trick in stuffing their approaches though, Lucario's short hop isn't high enough to get over it.

Also edge gaurds are pretty easy once you learn the up b timing, especially when they don't have aura. So if you get em off stage they should be dead.

To win against Lucario you have to outright beat them in neutral for the most part, which sucks because their movement options/speed are really good at maneuvering around our hitboxes for the most part.

My 2¢
 
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JPK

JPK

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Scrublord looking for some critique on this friendlies with my friend. Thanks in advance.

 
CORY

CORY

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it looks like you're better than your buddy, tbh, so it's hard to give good critiques. he's kind of suboptimally playing fox, so it's hard to see where you're making good reads vs him just making a poor decision and vice versa.

things you should work on:
learn to ledge hop uair and land on stage, keeping your invincibility. you can do this really simply, it'll just take some labbing. turn on debug and hitboxes and try to see yourself staying blue for the entire uair. not so important from this set, since you guys like to stand really far from the ledge during edgeguarding situations, but if people like to try and pressure you, an invincible uair from the ledge forces them to start respecting your space a lot more.

work on properly sweetspotting sideb on recovery. a lot of the time you were throwing it out way high (on purpose? meaning to go lower but mistimed? i can't tell : /) and that would be really unsafe vs better players who know how to just throw out bairs from edgehogs to beat your recovery attempts.

you also tend to float-wizkick-dj. for max distance/stall time and safety, you're better off switching that to wizkick-float-dj. it lets you decide if you'll actually need to float later in the recovery (maybe you don't need it right away, but guess wrong and get knocked back out again, so you can wizkick-[float?]-dj next time) and gives you the option to bait stuff out by pulling back slightly on the float to dj-uair or something to help clear space before you go for your up/sideb.
 
JPK

JPK

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Thanks I'll be sure to implement this into my playstyle and ill try to get some footage of me playing better players
 
CORY

CORY

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so, something kage did really early into g1 that i didn't ever think of was jab on ike's shield into grab... that's something interesting, if the opponent doesn't twitch grab you after a shielded jab (happens around 25s). then, at 1m15s, his spacing on his edgeguarding ike's upb was amazing. the attempt at 1m38s wasn't so great, though...

g1 was sad, considering that dj threw his first stock on an sd... i wonder if kage had tried that same spacing and setup he did at 1m15s on dj's last stock, if that would've sealed it there? he got the setup for it at around 2m38s and decided to cavort around the platform instead. that spacing would lose to ike going deep on stage (and probably wouldn't work on sweetspot?) but it would've been a better use of advantage than sliding around : /

kage looks like he needs to play a bit more pm ganon, in general, mostly to get used to how/where to use float. his use during recovery seems mostly suboptimal, like he's testing stuff out midmatch. he's also throwing out a lot of nairs. does he do that in melee, as well? or does he not know that 3.6 ganon's nair is pretty yucky? (asking in case anyone has insight).

he's really good at hitting his dtilt-[followup], though. seems to know the proper places to throw it out safely and when he can uair vs fair as the followup.

it looks like he's losing to that #PMJANK, would probably do much better once he gets used to what ike is capable of. ike still looks like a miserable matchup for ganon, regardless ;x lolz, faster us with a sword.
 
Bazkip

Bazkip

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CORY said:
or does he not know that 3.6 ganon's nair is pretty yucky? (asking in case anyone has insight).
Click to expand...
Doesn't usually do that in Melee, though I told him that it was pretty much like Melee nair when 3.6 came out, idk.
 
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CheCray

CheCray

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Could I get some critique of this close bo3 I had this week? :D
 
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CORY

CORY

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lolz, i swear every zss in the ****ing universe will start the match with uncharged paralyzer. i've just started mashing b asap if we start on the same level to be ready : p

when you're going for edgeguards and you've got it setup for her to reel in, keep it simple. either go for reaction ledgedrop-uair/bair or ledgedash/empty ledge hop and land on stage for a grab. you looked like you were trying a bit too much stuff and going for way too hard reads in there when you could've just setup for a consistent situation. there were also some technical flubs on your attempts, but that's easy to work past. just remember that, unless the zss has practiced the float back for an edge cancel on the reel hop, they only get one extra shot at ****ing with you, so you can hard call reel hop-fadeback-upb and just mucho chill. you can also go for ledge drop-afc if zss is at lower damage and you think you'll just get a forward launching uair.

you seem to be hitting the jump before the uair a bit too late, so you're not landing on stage. work on that a bit and it'll help a lot, even if you end up launching her forward rather than backwards, at least you'll be on stage and can start moving much faster for your followup.

and not super relevant in these matches, but respect her ledge game. she can ledge hop a full invincible uair and it's the biggest pain in the ass. you can bait it, but it does make you respect the space much more around the ledge. (of course, only relevant if you weren't able to get out and setup a tether edgeguard, first). on that note, beware of her utilt. it hits frame3 and has an annoying hitbox and will juggle you like a chump. it's super unsafe on shield, though. a lot of the zss in dfw like to use it like ganon's jab, since it actually has a fairly respectable hitbox for its speed and the risk-reward.

when you're doing empty bairs into wl, i'd recommend pointing the bairs towards the opponent ;x there was at least one bair facing the wrong way into a wl in each game.

that last game of the set, i feeeeeeel like you could've mixed up aerials with afc a bit more? i'm tired and working on calc hw right now, so i won't be doing play by play (or really double checking that game again to see if my hunch is just placebo ><). you dacus a lot more than i would recommend, but it is safe and you're not really being put in necessarily bad positions for it, soooooo.... i like your float game when you gain momentum and knockdowns.
 
CheCray

CheCray

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Alright I'll keep those things in mind. Time for a lab grind tech skill more, I flub movement wayyyy more often then I should. As for tether grabs, do we have enough time to punish those on reaction? And what's the optimal punish for a forced hop onto stage? Do we have anything that will force them back off stage?
 
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Bazkip

Bazkip

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Biggm said:
Alright I'll keep those things in mind. Time for a lab grind tech skill more, I flub movement wayyyy more often then I should. As for tether grabs, do we have enough time to punish those on reaction? And what's the optimal punish for a forced hop onto stage? Do we have anything that will force them back off stage?
Click to expand...
Forced tether hop animation is 50 frames long. When landing on stage they don't have to spend the whole animation airborne, but it's still some 30-40 frames depending on character, and then there's also 30 frames of landing lag. So yeah, there's time to react to their drift. On drift back, best option is ledgehop bair. On drift forwards you can do...pretty much anything. Best options are probably up angled fsmash if they're at kill percents, otherwise grab/dtilt/Flame Choke to start a combo.

What I spent some time labing was to see what options we have to cover all drift options, as that should allow for high consistency of punishing tethers due to only needing to react to the pull in. Of course there's the very obvious solution in uair, but that's a weak punish on drift in. What I came up with was ledgehop bair to cover the fade back, and then grabbing them if they drifted in (and then dthrow bair/uair/fair). The punish window is large enough that this can be done easily.
One of the problems with this is that the landing animations of Lucas, Toon Link and ZSS are low enough that Ganon's grab can miss if you grab at the wrong time. It can also whiff on Link/Samus if you're not quite close enough. Ivy's landing animation is very upright, so there's no worry there. While this is annoying, like I said the window to grab is very lenient, you don't need to grab right away. So you can simply wait past this point in their animation and then grab them. If you're really worried I supposed you could also dtilt.
Another problem is that dthrow is not particularly potent on Samus, the only aerial you're able to get past mid percents is uair, and that'll usually be the mid hit that won't send her particularly far, and then eventually we lose the ability to even land that. I think dthrow upB works until fairly late percents, so that's a pretty good option.

Other potential options for coverage that I haven't tested but should probably work out are a properly timed Flame Choke (possibly the best option against Samus, since AFC > Wiz Foot is a thing on her, or techase Wiz Foot if you get ground FC), or doing a short ledgedash then turnaround ftilt for fadeback or whatever you want for drift in.
 
Bazkip

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Oh, couple things I forgot to mention/just occurred to me.
There's another problem with the ledgehop bair grab, in that you might end up getting a reverse bair on slight drift in, which is a weak punish.

Also best course of action against Samus is likely reacting to the drift, ledgehop bair fadeback or jump on stage pivot grab fthrow (since throw knockback ignores weight) on drift in.
Edit: Wait no up-angled fsmash still probably better for killing here cause Samus is somewhat vulnerable to vertical KO's due to her floatiness and our fthrow isn't really that strong.

TBH react to drift ledgehop bair on fade back or [some action that's I've detailed already] on fade in is probably the best overall tactic for all forced tether hop punishes. I just wanted to be lazy lmao.
 
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Squints~.~

Squints~.~

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CORY said:
lolz, i swear every zss in the ****ing universe will start the match with uncharged paralyzer. i've just started mashing b asap if we start on the same level to be ready : p
Click to expand...
This is something I've noticed in just about every set I've played against a projectile character and it's extremely important. The space at the start of the game just makes it very easy for a character to initiate neutral by shooting off projectiles. Being ready to cape will generally either clank a second incoming projectile or negate their approach from the ground/whatever plane it's coming from. My friend is a Falco main and this advantage is very important at the start of our games, either discouraging use of lasers or stunning him and closing the gap between us to take a stage advantage. Always good to recognize and be ready to cape!
 
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CORY

CORY

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yoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
gotta watch this sometime later, won't have the time tonight : O
 
Squints~.~

Squints~.~

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That match was sick! I noticed RR using a lot more uairs, which he got kinda rocked by in his MM vs. Mr. B. I think if RR can adapt and learn from this game, he could be best Ganon. If he could just absorb the best skills from June, Kage, Mr. B and even Bidoof I think it would create the most versatile Ganon around haha
 
Bazkip

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So Ottawa had a big tourney yesterday, and had a decent amount of high level players for PM (Kage, MorKs, Weon-X, Holy)
Kage ended up winning. Suddenly I had a glimmer of hope, that somehow everything I thought I knew about this game was wrong, and that Ganon was actually viable.
There was no stream, but it was recorded, so I was excitedly awaiting on the vods to see how he did it.

They just got posted.
So how did he do it?
By playing Falcon.
;_;

At least we some matches of him playing Ganon

vs MorKs (Wario) [Loss] - https://youtu.be/6k6vFjlA4kw?t=8m10s
vs Mangachu (Wario) - https://youtu.be/UY5jvl7c03E?t=8m3s
vs Weon-X (Fox, Falcon) - https://youtu.be/q8DUKwnaVds
 
DMG

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DMG#931
I think I will use some Ganon at BR 20 later this month. I'm on an alt char kick, expect at least one game on stream with the Dark Lord if I'm not totally rusty and bad
 
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DMG

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DMG#931
You dropped most of them cause you grabbed the edge. Grabbing edge as Ganon in Falcon MU is weak unless he's lower. Normal tipman Uair and Fair anywhere near the ledge tends to be sufficiently potent to not require the ledge grab. Grabbing the ledge just forces you to scramble back on in the correct manner to cover Falcon when he goes higher.

U got it next time Baz
 
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Bazkip

Bazkip

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DMG said:
You dropped most of them cause you grabbed the edge. Grabbing edge as Ganon in Falcon MU is weak unless he's lower. Normal tipman Uair and Fair anywhere near the ledge tends to be sufficiently potent to not require the ledge grab. Grabbing the ledge just forces you to scramble back on in the correct manner to cover Falcon when he goes higher.

U got it next time Baz
Click to expand...
I've always been of the mindset of grab ledge to limit their options whenever possible. Never really considered...not doing that. I guess the idea is to wait right by the ledge to see what they do and then act accordingly.

I'll need to keep that in mind. Thanks!
 
DMG

DMG

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I got some footage from a local (probably in 2-3 days? Not sure how fast they will upload). Think I only went Ganon for some of GF's. Don't think I played very good but it is what it is. Got mild controller johns no johns
 
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Lafungo

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I went to the Smashing Grounds December monthly over the break. Can't say I was happy with my performance, but admittedly I was there mostly to see the SG crowd again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIZFc3KIdFM - vs. Freeze/Kwills
;_; We then lost to a Kirby/Ivysaur team in Losers because gimps. ;_;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfN9RtAmyQw - vs. Risky (Ganon)
Fun set. I asked Risky if he wanted to play Ganon dittos because I didn't particularly want to play a serious set against him and we had to wait 30 minutes to play on stream after having finished everything else in our pool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F24NMdTy4n4 - vs. Rose (ZSS)
I honestly expected to body Rose in this set, because that's what happened last time we played over the summer. He's definitely improved a lot, although my extreme mastery of edgeguards shone through at the end of game 2 and got me the well-deserved win.
 
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