Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[The Halloween Captain]

All of this stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of how competitive fighting games work.

TL ; DR: There are **** matchups. Deal with it.

All of the other side's stem from a fundamental unnecesary assumption of how competitive fighting should work, based on prior experiences. You say there are **** matchups, and you can change that, but you choose not to do so because that's not how you believe competitive fighting games work from your personal experiences with the genre. Rather than sticking with the fighting tradition, one could use this opportunity to concievably mend 6 of those **** matchups in an easily enforcible way. Or one could stick with their traditions.

I'm not all that big a fan of tradition myself.

 

[brinboy789]

You know, I'm not against bum or anything, but he is a dk main and dk is affected by this the most... doesn't that seem a little selfish?
also, comparing metaknight to dedede's matchups is reasonable. don't intervene just because you're against metaknights ban because you main him.

its not reasonable. MK doesnt have any **** matchups(cept for chars that get ***** by everybody) while D3 does, although i think they both shouldnt be banned.

im not looking for an arguement, i've had enough of those on the MK ban thread, im tired of them. i just dont think that just 0.7 % of the matchups in brawl are screwed by this tactic doesnt mean that it should be banned, especially when you can just cp

 

[ShadowLink84]

Stop downplaying the significance of the move. You don't care if you don't main a character involved.

So you are saying that Yuna is discriminating?
Thats...stupid...

Stop poisoning people's minds with "It's not enough," it's obviously enough for Bum. I doubt Bum would have banned it if it were just DK, he wouldn't be able to do so and still seem legit.

No one cares what other people think if they do not support it.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

its not reasonable. MK doesnt have any **** matchups(cept for chars that get ***** by everybody) while D3 does, although i think they both shouldnt be banned.

im not looking for an arguement, i've had enough of those on the MK ban thread, im tired of them. i just dont think that just 0.7 % of the matchups in brawl are screwed by this tactic doesnt mean that it should be banned, especially when you can just cp

Look, it really ****'s up the ranking system if that's your solution.

All the DK, Mario, Luigi, Samus, and Bowser mainers are forced to CP at least once a tournament because D3 is common.

Who do you think they choose?

 

[brinboy789]

Look, it really ****'s up the ranking system if that's your solution.

All the DK, Mario, Luigi, Samus, and Bowser mainers are forced to CP at least once a tournament because D3 is common.

Who do you think they choose?

as i said, im not looking for an arguement. according to DanGR's chart, Ice climbers **** him, and im pretty sure olimar does too.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

as i said, im not looking for an arguement. according to DanGR's chart, Ice climbers **** him, and im pretty sure olimar does too.

I know, but I want to address this.

IC's aren't an easy character to pick up, and Olimar's just unpopular.

Who do you think they pick up?

hint: this character is probably in your sig.

 

[brinboy789]

I know, but I want to address this.

IC's aren't an easy character to pick up, and Olimar's just unpopular.

Who do you think they pick up?

hint: this character is probably in your sig.

what? your hint is too vague!

srsly, IC's arent THAT hard to pick up, just have to learn proper CG timing, and how is olimar unpopular? and even if he is somehow, that shouldnt be a factor in which you CP to him or not.

IM NOT LOOKING FOR AN ARGUEMENT. im not going to respond to posts after this, im tired of arguing from MK ban thread

 

[ShadowLink84]

Look, it really ****'s up the ranking system if that's your solution.

All the DK, Mario, Luigi, Samus, and Bowser mainers are forced to CP at least once a tournament because D3 is common.

Who do you think they choose?

OMG THEY HAVE TO CP!
Everyone has to CP unless you are a few characters.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

OMG THEY HAVE TO CP!
Everyone has to CP unless you are a few characters.

Actually there are a large number of characters in Brawl that are believed to not require CP's. Check it out: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209071

 

[ShadowLink84]

Thats Inui.
Inui=/=good debater.
Bring up the reasoning other than, inui says so.

inf act let me just handle it myself.

Snake

ROB, Pikachu do very well against Snake as does DK.
He suffers a disadvantage to those characters due to their offensive capabilities and his lack luster aerial combat and recovery.

Olimar,

Peach

Diddy Kong,

Olimar and Falco.

Falco,

G&W

Dedede,

Olimar and Diddy

Game and Watch,

Toon Link does well and Mk can deal with him.

or Marth.

MK

 

[MorphedChaos]

The only character that doesn't need a CP is MK, Every other character has a counter... So don't bring CPs into this unless you wanna argue about MK some more.

 

[brinboy789]

The only character that doesn't need a CP is MK, Every other character has a counter... So don't bring CPs into this unless you wanna argue about MK some more.

but CP is a VALID point against banning D3's infinites. and besides, MK arguably can be countered by snake.

i am OUT of this convo now...i hope...

 

[The Halloween Captain]

It is not necesary for any of those characters to CP to win a large tournament, though it is helpful.

However, it is still not necesary.

 

[ShadowLink84]

It is not necesary for any of those characters to CP to win a large tournament, though it is helpful.

However, it is still not necesary.

The option is available to them and it is best they do. That's playing to wim.
As for your statement, so any character forced to CP should have that matchup banned then, since they are being forced to CP.

 

[MorphedChaos]

The option is available to them and it is best they do. That's playing to wim.
As for your statement, so any character forced to CP should have that matchup banned then, since they are being forced to CP.

QFT, voids your argument captain. Now maybe talk about how MK should be banned as well, then maybe I'll side with you, but til then, I'm on the anti-ban side

And I main Wario... That says something there mate

 

[The Halloween Captain]

The option is available to them and it is best they do. That's playing to wim.
As for your statement, so any character forced to CP should have that matchup banned then, since they are being forced to CP.

Not really. They are usually being forced to CP due to a combination of factors and characters, rather than a single attack on a single character which is up for ban.

Also,

I'm shocked to see so many people against the idea of banning a tactic that has no downside and that can (I believe) drastically improve the meta game so it won't go stale so fast (lol pun)

 

[SothE700k]

All of the other side's stem from a fundamental unnecesary assumption of how competitive fighting should work, based on prior experiences. You say there are **** matchups, and you can change that, but you choose not to do so because that's not how you believe competitive fighting games work from your personal experiences with the genre. Rather than sticking with the fighting tradition, one could use this opportunity to concievably mend 6 of those **** matchups in an easily enforcible way. Or one could stick with their traditions.

I'm not all that big a fan of tradition myself.

Ok, so YOU aren't fond of the tradition. Who said you have to either a) Be a part of it, or b) have to try and change it all?

Gonna keep complaining about this? There's the door, nice knowing you.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Ok, so YOU aren't fond of the tradition. Who said you have to either a) Be a part of it, or b) have to try and change it all?

Gonna keep complaining about this? There's the door, nice knowing you.

No, gonna try to Smash an irritating tradition in this case.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not really. They are usually being forced to CP due to a combination of factors and characters, rather than a single attack on a single character which is up for ban.

Also,

So? They are still being forced to CP.
Those factors are what define the matchup.
That infinite DDD has is what helps to defines the matchup as 9-1 and forces them to CP.

 

[cutter]

No, gonna try to Smash an irritating tradition in this case.

Maybe you should stop digging yourself a hole into the center of the Earth... :/

 

[SothE700k]

Edit: Nevermind, this wasn't even worth it.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Maybe you should stop digging yourself a hole into the center of the Earth... :/

Yeah, I should stop talking. I tend to rant when I get worked up.

I should stop arguing because I disagree with all of you. And none of you really make sense to anyone who doesn't play other fighters.

And that should concern you a little.

 

[-Kagato-]

Dedede is my secondary and even I think the infinite standing chaingrab is pretty broken. After all, against those characters, once Dedede grabs them, their stock is forfeit since Dedede can take them to whatever percentage he wants.

Also, in a timed stock match, it's a stall tactic. Dedede gets one stock ahead, then infinite chain-grabs for as long as he can to waste time. Though keeping the infinite going for such a long time seems a bit farfetched, the possibility is there.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The incredible ignorance of people is astounding...
you...cannot...stall...with it...because...we can.... CAP IT!

 

[XIF]

Yeah, I should stop talking. I tend to rant when I get worked up.

I should stop arguing because I disagree with all of you. And none of you really make sense to anyone who doesn't play other fighters.

And that should concern you a little.

If you aren't at least familiar with other fighting games, you don't have much business being in the discussion to begin with, and if allusions to other fighting games confuse people, then they basically need to man the **** up.

 

[NeoCrono]

Okay, I went to a local tournament at my friends house. About 30 people came, and one of my friends who uses Luigi and normally does really well. In one of the earlier matches he had to play a Snake and he 3 stocked him, then. He switched to D3 and did the infinite on him on every stock and 3 stocked him, and did the same the next match..... I felt bad for him. It was like he was a ****** trying to fight a grown man while he is holding you at arms length away, do what you want, you your gonna lose.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Your friend should click the cursor, and move it over to Olimar. Problem solved.

 

[NeoCrono]

Your friend should click the cursor, and move it over to Olimar. Problem solved.

I hate olimar......... with a passion........
But he is one of those guys who used Luigi since 64, melee, and now. He REFUSES to use anyone else lol, he is stuck in the past and wont move forward lol

 

[Shiroi]

I say.. [It's my opinion xD]
His CG is something not really caring about.. xD
I mean, if people ban his CG. DDD mains will be screwed [unless you dont rely on CGing alot]
If people don't, some people who main the characters that get CGed by DDD [Depending on the DDD's skill and your skill] are pissed off and go hating.
So, DDD's CG has a varying situation.


(the following depends on DDD Mains skill and challengers skill.) Outcome - 49% chance happening)

DDD= CG all the time = Win-51% Lose- 49% but Major smack talk to your face/behind your back.
DDD = CG occasionally = Win-50% Lose -50%and little praise and little smack talk.
DDD = CG Rarely = Win-49% Lose- 51% situation and major props.

based on opinions and little experience with DDD. (don't go hating me. XP)

 

[dark-war-cloud]

Are we going to base the banning off of this poll?

 

[NeoCrono]

Are we going to base the banning off of this poll?

Probably not, its ultimately up to the TO

 

[Magus420]

The infinite isn't even that good against Luigi unless you let it be. Around the time I can't mash out of the grab hit and it actually starts working, his u-tilt starts being able to KO at that percent anyway =/

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I say.. [It's my opinion xD]
His CG is something not really caring about.. xD
I mean, if people ban his CG. DDD mains will be screwed [unless you dont rely on CGing alot]
If people don't, some people who main the characters that get CGed by DDD [Depending on the DDD's skill and your skill] are pissed off and go hating.
So, DDD's CG has a varying situation.


(the following depends on DDD Mains skill and challengers skill.) Outcome - 49% chance happening)

DDD= CG all the time = Win-51% Lose- 49% but Major smack talk to your face/behind your back.
DDD = CG occasionally = Win-50% Lose -50%and little praise and little smack talk.
DDD = CG Rarely = Win-49% Lose- 51% situation and major props.

based on opinions and little experience with DDD. (don't go hating me. XP)

This is his standing infinite we're talking about, not his CG.

For everyone:
I really like how both the users and the victims of the chaingrab come to this thread and are completely blown off. Lets face it, Shadowlink didn't care about that Luigi player, nor did he care about the opinions of the D3 player (it would have to be a low cap, it's 5 seconds per grab after 150%).

If you start ignoring or disreguarding everyone involved on both sides of the grab (the D3's and the weegee's), you become an ***hole imposing your opinions on other people and screwing up their metagame experience, while trying to make decisions that don't affect you. I don't care about precident, or about brokenness, I've seen way more D3's against than before. And they main the character that abuses the tactic. Why the **** are you trying to save a tactic when it's users keep telling you it's ****ing broken?

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

No it shouldn't, because that means they should ban Pikachu's standing down throw on Fox.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

No it shouldn't, because that means they should ban Pikachu's standing down throw on Fox.

The difference there being that Pikachu's WOULD NOT REGULARLY COME HERE AND TELL YOU IT'S BROKEN.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get the people who would lose from a ban to be pro-ban? I can guarentee the majority of MK mains were against the MK ban.

 

[NeoCrono]

The infinite isn't even that good against Luigi unless you let it be. Around the time I can't mash out of the grab hit and it actually starts working, his u-tilt starts being able to KO at that percent anyway =/

Really, my friend was mashing buttons to get out of it and nothing worked. Eventually he got mad and said "*** it, I quit"

P.S I'm getting better at melee, I want a rematch soon

 

[dark-war-cloud]

I main dedede and i'm somewhat for banning it.
I'm still deciding.
I don't really want it in the game, but i also don't want it to be banned just because it beats a few characters.

 

[ShadowLink84]

This is his standing infinite we're talking about, not his CG.

no ****ing way!

For everyone:
I really like how both the users and the victims of the chaingrab come to this thread and are completely blown off. Lets face it, Shadowlink didn't care about that Luigi player, nor did he care about the opinions of the D3 player (it would have to be a low cap, it's 5 seconds per grab after 150%).

Ppinions don't mean jacksquat. A luigi who did not want to use the solution that is there on the account of being stubborn does not matter. What matters is the metagame, how does this infinite affect the metagame. not how it makes people feel, or how much they don't want to cp or anything else.
Either you show the infinite harms the metagame or you don't ban it.

My being a Sonic user doesn't mean **** so I am getting pretty **** tired about hearing how everyone is soooo uncaring about the mains and users.
Frankly, if Sonic was being infinited I would hold the same opinion.

blah

No one cares how those users feels because fraknly, how they feel doesn't contribute to the discussion. Unlesss you can show the infinite harms the metagame then there is no reason to ban it.
Period.

 

[Mocha19]

To my knowledge, I thought that if anything could be used in any way to stall for time, then it was banned. Or at least that would be the more fair thing to do. A grab limit would be good or just a regular chain grab.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The grab can be limited with a damage cap. -_-; stalling solved.
Just need to figure out what cap is suitable is all.
I suggest 200%