Should it be legal to look at your opponent's controller to see their DI?

[-ACE-]

https://youtu.be/-WIl_CXLlm4?t=1m51s
https://youtu.be/9wX23nN9P3Y?t=47s
https://youtu.be/OyyU-TIVhAo?t=19m25s
https://youtu.be/-WIl_CXLlm4?t=1m7s

Should this be legal?

Is this what you're supposed to do?

Is this the type of direction we want the community to head in?

If so, I will begin chaingrabbing spacies with Ganon starting at extremely low percents and always finish the cg properly, ending in death. All Ganons will be great at chaingrabbing now. Lmao

I've known about this for a while, but for those of you that are just finding out, I bet the standing up while playing and the big shades make a lot more sense now.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

People were actually defending this **** on a similar Facebook thread LOL. Claiming those opposed were just "finding another reason to hate on hbox." I don't care which player does this, it's ****ing stupid. Do we really need to start forcing players to play on either side of a wall?

 

[ThunderCat]

Should be illegal but honestly I have tried doing this and I found it isn't even worth taking your eyes off the screen. Too dangerous when you're playing spacies mang.

 

[Dolla Pills]

I think it's super freaking grimy but don't know if it's feasible to ban

 

[Stride]

I think it's pretty dumb that it's a thing, and under ideal circumstances it wouldn't exist, but at the same time I don't understand how it makes sense to ban looking at something which is clearly visible. If the tournament environment puts the controller inputs clearly on display then insisting players ignore them is weird (it's still a subjective and arbitrary rule so I can't really say "wrong", though that's how I feel), as well as prohibitively impractical to moderate.

I'm not sure how you could enforce a "no looking" rule properly. Do you have someone diligently look though all the playercam footage after each game (assuming there even is any, which isn't the case for like 90% of sets at least) for the easily-missed sideways glance that takes less than a second, which could be from either player, which you can't always be sure is even directed at the opponent's controller? Most of the time the player whose controller is being looked at won't notice it at all, so you'd have to rely on footage or spectators (who would generally be watching the TV and not the front of the players) to report it. Add to that how easy it would be for a player to lie about their opponent doing it.

If you were to run a major tournament with this rule, how would you handle it? How would you enforce it and what would the penalties be?

 

[-ACE-]

Camera evidence is the only feasible was to catch someone. You can't go by word of mouth unless you had some hypothetical perfectly unbiased and knowledgeable referee, which can't be implemented.

In a world where it was easy to enforce (every match on stream with player cam), if it was up to me...

For starters they'd forfeit any winnings. Their placing would be forfeited as well. If somehow they were caught on the spot, auto game loss.

It's definitely grimey af.

Should be illegal but honestly I have tried doing this and I found it isn't even worth taking your eyes off the screen. Too dangerous when you're playing spacies mang.

You definitely have time in some situations, lots of chaingrabs where muscle memory gets you by, and obviously throws like jiggs dthrow.

 

[gghhh3]

You can't be serious.
Banning someones eye movements.
Bring a wall if you are so worried about it; it's been done before.

 

[20XXwingleborgXxx]

Sit like m2k have your legs crossed and hide the controller besides them.

 

[-ACE-]

You can't be serious.
Banning someones eye movements

Well no offense, but this is a ridiculous way to look at it, lol. Cheating on tests isn't allowed, people use the same "eye movements" you speak of, and it's enforced. Not everyone gets caught, but the chance that they will get caught is a deterrence from them being a grimey cheater.

There is a speed limit, it is enforced fairly strictly, but millions of people speed every day. I'm sure someone at some point said "but we can't stop everyone from speeding, not even close!", and I'm sure the person in charge promptly replied "That's not the point".

It would be easy to enforce this on stream matches with the player cam. Hardly anyone noticed before because no one was looking for it. It's very obvious what's going on when you know what to look for. Even if no one saw it at the tourney the twitch chat would blow up.

Just having a rule against something serves as a deterrence even if it's hard to enforce. I think a lot of people forget that.

Rules also bring more awareness to issues, thus making them easier to enforce and strengthening the deterrence from cheating.

 

[-ACE-]

Think about that pichu player that hacked the game. Wouldn't this be funny.....

TO: "Well man you're obviously cheating, but this one's pretty hard to enforce, so here's a free pass. Enjoy your obscenely buffed pichu and any winnings you might receive. Come back any time"

This post should be referenced for the "too hard to enforce" idea. Lol

 

[iAmMatt]

This is ridiculous.
If any player isn't confident in their reaction time to react to di, they're playing the wrong game.

 

[gghhh3]

Some useless stuff

And this would be a ridiculous rule.
If you are worried you are going to lose because someone is looking at your controller, bring a wall. Not that hard.

Ban everything until we can probe our brains and play mentally. That way I won't lose to some guy looking at me, or to someone with a coach, or to someone with one of them cheating controllers.

MentalMelee, the future.

 

[-ACE-]

And this would be a ridiculous rule.
If you are worried you are going to lose because someone is looking at your controller, bring a wall. Not that hard.

Ban everything until we can probe our brains and play mentally. That way I won't lose to some guy looking at me, or to someone with a coach, or to someone with one of them cheating controllers.

MentalMelee, the future.

So you designate everything I said as useless, then you post THIS?? LOL

Do you really think I'm worried about losing because I share my thoughts on legality? Even if you know you'll win, it's kinda good to know someone isn't trying to snake you and succeeding in doing so. Whoever wins is irrelevant.

Do you know the purpose of having rules?

 

[Dolla Pills]

Or perhaps instead of playing sets we should just arm wrestle and if anyone tries to pull anything a referee will punch them in the temple. This way we can be absolutely certain that no one will be cheating at Super Smash Brothers Melee for the Nintendo GameCube.

Seems much more reasonable than adding "Players will be DQ'd for looking at their opponent's controller (or any other form of outside-the-game tampering) in order to read their inputs" onto commonly used rule sets.

 

[the muted smasher]

This is embarrassing.

It's not even broken nor will it ever do more than slowly ease reaction, it's not like there aren't out of game counters like random di, and last second fake outs.

Please go ahead and 0-death a space animal with gannon chain throw

 

[-ACE-]

This is embarrassing.

In what way?

Do you feel it's ok to yell at your opponent during a match, since headphones, an out of game counter, exist? I don't think the presence of a counter means much. You shouldn't have to resort to random DI to keep things more fair in competition.

To me, there's a reason why your opponent's inputs aren't displayed on-screen.

Please go ahead and 0-death a space animal with gannon chain throw

Well, that can't be done guaranteed, as the cg isn't guaranteed on Fox until 34%, and 12% for Falco (DI behind escapes). I'm good enough without cheating though. Also, who is "gannon"?

 

[the muted smasher]

Is it game breaking?

Go ahead try it

 

[-ACE-]

Is it game breaking?

Go ahead try it

You're aware that something doesn't have to be game breaking to be ban worthy.... right?

 

[Delta Chae]

I agree that looking at your opponent's controller is grimy and under ideal circumstances should be illegal. However I don't see any practical way of enforcing this. The only way would be to look at camera footage after the fact but what about matches where there is no camera footage? There's no way to implement and enforce this rule with any degree of consistency and for a rule to be valid (Ideally) it must be something that can be and is consistently enforced across the board for every competitor. However let's say that the rule can be consistently enforced. What do you do? Make them forfeit their ranking and winnings? Fine them? If we had a sanctioning body that handles our rankings and winnings like the LCS for League of Legends then fining them would be an appropriate punishment (You can't exactly say "return your winnings" well after the fact, that money is likely either spent or tucked away in a bank account though you can fine them for an amount equal to or greater than their winnings so it comes out as a net loss). The issue of ranking wouldn't so much be "your rank is being stripped" so much as "you will retain your rank at this tournament but it will be considered invalid when considering your final ranking for this season" but even then as we lack a sanctioning body that puts out official rankings (MioM is an unofficial ranking as MioM is not a sanctioning body) this would mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

tl;dr: I like the idea in concept but do not believe it to be practical for execution.

 

[-ACE-]

Delta Chae I've already addressed the "difficulty of enforcement" issue, and don't see how it should have a great effect on whether or not a rule on this should exist.

You seem to be more concerned with imposing sanctions on those who get caught. IMO the issue of whether or not there should be a rule is much more important and punishment is secondary.

As I said before, simply having a rule in place raises awareness on the issue, making it easier to enforce and creates/strengthens a deterrence to cheat. Just because a rule can be broken and the person most likely won't get caught isn't a good enough reason to not have a rule.

 

[Delta Chae]

Delta Chae I've already addressed the "difficulty of enforcement" issue, and don't see how it should have a great effect on whether or not a rule on this should exist.

You seem to be more concerned with imposing sanctions on those who get caught. IMO the issue of whether or not there should be a rule is much more important and punishment is secondary.

As I said before, simply having a rule in place raises awareness on the issue, making it easier to enforce and creates/strengthens a deterrence to cheat. Just because a rule can be broken and the person most likely won't get caught isn't a good enough reason to not have a rule.

Actually my primary concern was the consistency of the rule being enforced. Obviously the rule is enforceable when it comes to stream matches but those are very few and far between in the grand scheme of larger tournaments. A rule that exists but cannot be enforced is entirely pointless and nobody will follow it. Once again: for a rule to be valid it must be enforceable 100% of the time otherwise there is no consistency. You might stop people from doing this on stream (Even then I doubt it as people will always be trying to see what they can get away with) but you will not stop people from doing it off stream which is the majority of matches that are played. That is my main issue with this proposed rule being that it can only be applied to matches that are recorded.

 

[-ACE-]

Delta Chae My mistake. It seems to me like difficulty in consistently enforcing a rule falls under difficulty in enforcing a rule.

Do you really think, if players were more aware of people doing this and called people out for it, that players would say something like "I don't see the TO anywhere" or "prove it"?? IMO many players would stop doing it to be on the safe side, especially if they were potentially facing a DQ. This is why many people don't speed much while driving. They know they can probably get away with it, but it's usually just not worth the risk. If a player gets called out for doing something against the rules, he will be watched more closely. This is arguably human nature. It will get harder and harder to pull off even if they're hellbent on cheating.

 

[Delta Chae]

Delta Chae My mistake. It seems to me like difficulty in consistently enforcing a rule falls under difficulty in enforcing a rule.

Do you really think, if players were more aware of people doing this and called people out for it, that players would say something like "I don't see the TO anywhere" or "prove it"?? IMO many players would stop doing it to be on the safe side, especially if they were potentially facing a DQ. This is why many people don't speed much while driving. They know they can probably get away with it, but it's usually just not worth the risk. If a player gets called out for doing something against the rules, he will be watched more closely. This is arguably human nature. It will get harder and harder to pull off even if they're hellbent on cheating.

They're two distinct things. As long as you have someone with a keen eye and who is willing to watch the set after the fact you can very easily enforce this for recorded matches. The only way to enforce this for unrecorded matches however is to go by word of mouth which is notoriously unreliable and prone to people just throwing out accusations because of the amount of salt in their system therefore this rule can only be truly and objectively enforced on stream. This however is a completely arbitrary distinction to make as both games are exactly the same with the exception of one is being recorded and the other isn't. When you get to the point where the lines you are drawing become completely arbitrary in nature the rule probably isn't something that can be implemented in a practical manner.

Who exactly will the player be watched more closely by? We don't have referees that watch over the players during a set and the TO can't be everywhere at once while the majority of matches played even at larger tournaments lack spectators unless said match features a top 25 player meaning that in most cases the only person you have as a witness is the player who is levying the accusation which isn't exactly an unbiased source.

From what I'm gathering you seem to think that this accusation would only be thrown out when it actually happens and that anyone accused of this would face immediate disqualification. This is, in essence: guilty until proven innocent which I do not feel needs elaboration on why said system is unjust. If I'm wrong feel free to correct me but that's the vibe I'm getting.

 

[-ACE-]

Delta Chae I never said that word of mouth should be used for rule enforcement. False accusations have just as much grime potential as cheating.

Personally, I don't think many players are going to be attempting this, so in the cases that it does happen, you could call a TO over to watch the following game(s). Once the person sees that players are willing to do this (call the TO), they'll eventually lose some drive to commit this particular act of cheating. If you develop a reputation for it, people will be looking for it. If you have a reputation for doing something, it's much harder to do it without people knowing. This is what I said is arguably human nature.

I just don't see how allowing cheating is better than stopping some, half, or possibly most of it.

I believe I've already covered this, but yes you're completely wrong about the last paragraph.

 

[2 +]

The whole reporting system for unrecorded matches relies on an honour system. There are already numerous rules that, if the match was unrecorded and a T.O. wasn't around, rely on word of mouth. For example, physically interfering with the other player, pausing (if enabled), DSR not being followed. Also many regions insist controller modifications, especially macros, are against the rules but I don't know of any controllers ever being inspected. Controller spying is no harder than these to enforce, in situations where no T.O. Is present.

I also want to add, I think controller spying is similar to stalling, in that it is in one sense a competitive strategy but 'not in the spirit of the game' or 'unsportsmanly', and should be treated similarly. In fact, both players have availability to stall tactics, while often one player would be better positioned for controller spying which offers an unfair advantage from outside the game itself. I don't think this is a commonly used tactic, but some of the rules protect against equally uncommon tactics.

 

[Delta Chae]

Delta Chae I never said that word of mouth should be used for rule enforcement. False accusations have just as much grime potential as cheating.

Personally, I don't think many players are going to be attempting this, so in the cases that it does happen, you could call a TO over to watch the following game(s). Once the person sees that players are willing to do this (call the TO), they'll eventually lose some drive to commit this particular act of cheating. If you develop a reputation for it, people will be looking for it. If you have a reputation for doing something, it's much harder to do it without people knowing. This is what I said is arguably human nature.

I just don't see how allowing cheating is better than stopping some, half, or possibly most of it.

I believe I've already covered this, but yes you're completely wrong about the last paragraph.

TOs cannot be everywhere at once. While the system you propose would work fine for tournaments hosted in smaller venues it would be far more troublesome for use in larger venues especially for multi-game tournaments like EVO which enforce a strict time limit between games in a set lest both players risk being disqualified.

I also don't really see how stick peeking can be considered "cheating" as your inputs aren't exactly hidden information like your opponent's hand in a TCG and it's something that can be done by both players. Don't get me wrong: I still think it's a scummy and unsportsmanlike thing to do but I wouldn't call it "cheating" as that would imply that a player has access to information that is not considered to be public knowledge. Meta gaming to an extreme degree perhaps but there is nothing inherently wrong with that by itself.

 

[Thor]

Bans must be discrete, enforceable, and warranted. [Sirlin, probably paraphrased or maybe a direct quote].

Discrete - When can you not look at their controller? Ever? When they're in hitstun? When they're grabbed? What about when they're comboing you [trying to see their followups and adjust your DI accordingly]?

If we just say not ever, it's discrete, but if you want to watch your opponent's hands while they multishine between stocks, that'll cost you a set? Laaaaaame. And if we start slip and sliding elsewhere, we either need some list of when it's okay and not, and that's a headache or will leave loopholes that'll take a while to iron out.

Enforceable - literally the entire issue with this thread. Can only really be enforced on camera, and even then, difficult [what if there was an insect off-camera that distracted them??? Very plausible defense, would be trite if used often, but it may be an honest "mistake" (no foul) that leaves them under scrutiny].

Warranted - looking at someone's controller fast enough to DI check and react is frankly impressive... if you can develop that skill, by all means use it in my book [the goal is to win in the game, but players do plenty of things out of game that matter - drinking fluids or snacks during sets, rock paper scissors, adjusting body position whether it's sitting/standing or just moving legs, wiping sweat off, adjusting music on their playlists, etc.]. You may feel they have access to extra info, but it's symmetrical [you can do the same], and if they're not letting you, they're doing a better job of positioning [although there may be a reason to draw a line if there's a lot of out-of-game jockeying for position, I really don't see that happening].

It seems this fails two of the points pretty clearly, and discreteness is tricky at best. I don't see a reason to ban it (and you could do random DI the way some people supposedly randomly tech, or try to body-shield your controller/bring a shield of some sort, if this irks you).

 

[gghhh3]

LOOOOL

We can call it the trump rule. "Bring a wall and make them pay for(trying) looking at your controller"

 

[-ACE-]

TOs cannot be everywhere at once. While the system you propose would work fine for tournaments hosted in smaller venues it would be far more troublesome for use in larger venues especially for multi-game tournaments like EVO which enforce a strict time limit between games in a set lest both players risk being disqualified.

I also don't really see how stick peeking can be considered "cheating" as your inputs aren't exactly hidden information like your opponent's hand in a TCG and it's something that can be done by both players. Don't get me wrong: I still think it's a scummy and unsportsmanlike thing to do but I wouldn't call it "cheating" as that would imply that a player has access to information that is not considered to be public knowledge. Meta gaming to an extreme degree perhaps but there is nothing inherently wrong with that by itself.

The staff members that call out pools could do it. There are only some situations where this grime is applicable, and most likely not helpful in some matchups altogether. And the vast majority of players are not this grimey. So the TO's or whoever does it wouldn't have to be everywhere, not even close.

Are you really saying that your inputs are public knowledge at all times??

Bans must be discrete, enforceable, and warranted. [Sirlin, probably paraphrased or maybe a direct quote].

Discrete - When can you not look at their controller? Ever? When they're in hitstun? When they're grabbed? What about when they're comboing you [trying to see their followups and adjust your DI accordingly]?

If we just say not ever, it's discrete, but if you want to watch your opponent's hands while they multishine between stocks, that'll cost you a set? Laaaaaame. And if we start slip and sliding elsewhere, we either need some list of when it's okay and not, and that's a headache or will leave loopholes that'll take a while to iron out.

Enforceable - literally the entire issue with this thread. Can only really be enforced on camera, and even then, difficult [what if there was an insect off-camera that distracted them??? Very plausible defense, would be trite if used often, but it may be an honest "mistake" (no foul) that leaves them under scrutiny].

Warranted - looking at someone's controller fast enough to DI check and react is frankly impressive... if you can develop that skill, by all means use it in my book [the goal is to win in the game, but players do plenty of things out of game that matter - drinking fluids or snacks during sets, rock paper scissors, adjusting body position whether it's sitting/standing or just moving legs, wiping sweat off, adjusting music on their playlists, etc.]. You may feel they have access to extra info, but it's symmetrical [you can do the same], and if they're not letting you, they're doing a better job of positioning [although there may be a reason to draw a line if there's a lot of out-of-game jockeying for position, I really don't see that happening].

It seems this fails two of the points pretty clearly, and discreteness is tricky at best. I don't see a reason to ban it (and you could do random DI the way some people supposedly randomly tech, or try to body-shield your controller/bring a shield of some sort, if this irks you).

Intent matters. Let's be honest. You know when something's grimey and when it's not. Looking at a guy multishine isn't something that anyone wants to DQ someone for.

AN INSECT DISTRACTED ME??? LMAO. It would be extremely easy to tell if they were BS'ing or not. There are specific opportune times when looking at the opponent's controller would benefit the cheater, and they don't happen incredibly often. Come on man, this would be easy to distinguish.

You're comparing this to nutrition?? Playlist selection??? Good Lord man, isn't this grimier than those?? LOL. Well anyway, doing it isn't that hard, I've done it in 2-3 friendlies in my 11+ year melee "career" because the way we were sitting put his controller right in my view. It's like you saw a correct test answer and you couldn't help but change yours. Not difficult to react to DI when you know exactly what to do because you already know the direction. I guarantee hbox never practiced this... He just started doing it lol.

You shouldn't have to do random DI to keep your opponent from knowing your DI!! Sometimes, DI'ing in one surgeon is much better than the other! But when you've used the best option enough and wasn't time switch it up, you don't need him knowing exactly WHEN you switch it up! lol

LOOOOL

We can call it the trump rule. "Bring a wall and make them pay for(trying) looking at your controller"

Lol where would a serious discussion be without people like you? Take a break man, you've got to be mentally exhausted!

 

[the muted smasher]

The problem is looking at controllers doesn't allow You something that isn't at worse a 1/3 minor read or reaction option.

Really I Just Don't this matters enough to even enforce and is Just an awful downhill battle.

But I'm blind in the middle of my eye so I honestly see around me when I chain throw/wobble

 

[gghhh3]

I'd be nowhere without the knee jerk reactors. This is far from serious.

 

[-ACE-]

The problem is looking at controllers doesn't allow You something that isn't at worse a 1/3 minor read or reaction option.

How does knowing someone's EXACT DI equate to 1/3 ANYTHING?

https://youtu.be/bsNbCkzRF-s

^^ reaction time is what makes this hard, knowing the DI is everything.

Do you really think hungrybox would do this if it doesn't help?

I'd be nowhere without the knee jerk reactors. This is far from serious.

So you have an opinion, but are incapable of supporting it. I guess we're both laughing quite a bit here!

 

[gghhh3]

I have an opinion, bring a wall. Support it by bringing a wall. Do I need to tell you to bring a wall again? Or do you get the point.

Go to home depot, buy some PVC, attach old shirt or buy a pack of XXLs(extra walls are you kidding me!?) and you're set.

What if HBox stands up to have a better view of the screen and his opponents controller at the same time? This dude might be on to something.

Ban side by side setups, Head2head only. MentalMelee the future.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Yeah bro I carry a fkn wall with me at all times screw these cheats

 

[-ACE-]

What if HBox stands up to have a better view of the screen and his opponents controller at the same time?

That's what he's BEEN doing lmao, same with the shades. This is very old news.

I feel like if one smasher was urinating on his opponents you'd be like "bring a raincoat". At this point I think you're just trying to derail the thread. Or maybe your understanding of melee is truly that lacking. Either way, your lack of input isn't needed here.

 

[-ACE-]

PROS of having a rule
-less people cheat (deterrence)
-players that do commit this act will have a more difficult time doing so as time goes on
-there is an actual punishment for those who do
-alleviates lack of awareness of this issue
-promotes a less grimey smash community
-promotes and aids in the effort to ensure fairness in competition

CONS of having a rule
-some people will inevitably get away with it since it's easier to enforce on recorded setups with player cam.
-on rare occasion, an extra person may be needed to supervise the remainder of a set

Some people will see this post as ridiculous, so why don't you go ahead and tell me why. Feel free to elaborate.

 

[Delta Chae]

Yeah bro I carry a fkn wall with me at all times screw these cheats

m8 go all the way. Bring in the mortar and start laying down the bricks.

 

[gghhh3]

Just pee on them in return, don't let the other person win. There are rules against that, but if you don't scare, I don't scare.

My input has been way above the bar, almost set a WR here.

Yall are way behind with mortars. Bring in the jets, droppin bombs on my opponents.

I've got a group of professional eyeball watchers. Let me know if you want to hire them.

I'm done reading the dumb stuff(and contributing) here. I'll be sure to check upcoming tournaments to see if your efforts were in vain or not.

 

[iAmMatt]

Just pee on them in return, don't let the other person win. There are rules against that, but if you don't scare, I don't scare.

My input has been way above the bar, almost set a WR here.

Yall are way behind with mortars. Bring in the jets, droppin bombs on my opponents.

I've got a group of professional eyeball watchers. Let me know if you want to hire them.

I'm done reading the dumb stuff(and contributing) here. I'll be sure to check upcoming tournaments to see if your efforts were in vain or not.

Been stalking this thread, you're overdoing it m8. It was funny the first few times, now its just dumb

 

[-ACE-]

Just pee on them in return, don't let the other person win. There are rules against that, but if you don't scare, I don't scare.

My input has been way above the bar, almost set a WR here.

Yall are way behind with mortars. Bring in the jets, droppin bombs on my opponents.

I've got a group of professional eyeball watchers. Let me know if you want to hire them.

I'm done reading the dumb stuff(and contributing) here. I'll be sure to check upcoming tournaments to see if your efforts were in vain or not.

You're one to be speaking of efforts in vain, random guy. lmao

You sound like someone that talked a big one in HS but got wedgies from upperclassmen lol, mad at the world. So sad to see you go.