Should Cloud be rebalanced?

[Rubiss]

You're the one that started the comparisons by comparing FT to KO Punch(in which KO punch is clearly superior as well).
And you can't say jigglypuff doesn't kill as early as cloud,

Even without rage that setup kills as early as 25%, on average 30%. And gimps can kill just as early. And she really doesn't -rely- on rest for kills. Up-tilt and bair kill well, as does getting an f-smash off a read, or landing a sing or rollout(which does happen)

You're clearly more experienced with Jigglypuff than I am, so I won't try and argue about her kill potential. From what I know about the character, they have issues getting in. At any rate, I'm not trying to do a Jigglypuff and Cloud comparison. Initially I compared FT and KO punch because they both belong to speedy characters with lots of strength and shield pressure. KO punch does kill about 40% earlier, but it can be knocked out of Little Mac. Cloud can hold onto his limit break for as long as he chooses, which is fine.

It's faster, by two frames, but has severely less range. The problem is getting there? Using a god damn back throw or aerial string. After that he has no counter and him using almost any aerial will put him below the ledge forcing an Up B. Not to mention you're thinking all Clouds will use FT when in reality SIde B is probably the best options. Frame 10 and Super armor frame six as well as twenty six damage and good KB. Furthermore, are these being done in tournaments reliably? If not, then it's you still being bad at the game. I'd also like to point out FT has 80 frames of endlag meaning you can punish with any smash attack in the game and charge some. I feel like you should also know Rest comes out on frames 2 to 4 has has Iframes from 1 through 27. SO jiggs can use this move if she reads an attack due to IFrames.

I feel like you're one of those players who, instead of looking at characters objectively something bad happens to you a few times and you say "X move should be nerfed'. I will repeat. Either show Clouds getting successive FT's in tournaments and them winning the set. If not he is NOT OP and doesn't require nerfs.

First things first. Cloud is a fairly defensive character. Obviously getting Cloud offstage will have him use his limit in most cases. However you're making the grave assumption that Cloud is easy to grab in the first place. He excels greatly at spacing and has disjointed hitboxes. I don't see how saying "take Cloud offstage" is a viable argument against his limit break. It's like telling a Ness player to run in and grab and Rosalina. Sure, backthrow kills her at like 120% (if I recall correctly. May be earlier) but grabbing Rosalina is not easy. Not to say Cloud is on Rosalina's level of spacing, but he's certainly not too far behind.

It's a bit too soon to talk about tournaments with Cloud. He hasn't been out very long and hasn't had enough tournament exposure to really settle in the meta right now. Any results with Cloud are biased. His matchups are still being understood. Now I could just be salty over some Cloud shenanigans, but given how early FT kills (especially without rage), I don't see why it wouldn't be used tournaments as a mix up. It's certainly not as safe. I think dismissing it because it has end lag and a lack of invincibility is silly. You can do Jab 1 -> FT I am fairly sure.

Finally, I never really said Cloud is OP. I said FT is OP given how early it kills and how easily he can regain his limit break. I think with Cloud's recovery, he is actually balanced overall.

 

[PapaJ]

"You can do Jab 1 -> FT I am fairly sure"
uhh no. Unless you are actually the worst smash player Jab 1 will combo only to jab 2. FAF is pretty high on Jab 1. I think the fact that you think Jab > FT is a true combo shows that you should not be talking about this character in any competitive sense.

"Now I could just be salty over some Cloud shenanigans, but given how early FT kills (especially without rage), I don't see why it wouldn't be used tournaments as a mix up."

Again,, frame sixteen has no armor. jabs and tilts can beat it out. Not to mention the KO percent for FT stops being effective when LB Cross Slash kills, and, as I detailed in previous posts, comes out earlier, has iframes, and less end lag. THis means FT should ONLY be used between sixty and 90 percent. That's a small window. After 90 you're much better off using Cross slash.

Again, if FT was truly OP we would see Clouds wining/being used in spades. He is not, and, from my knowledge he has only one one or two locals. Even if Cloud wasnt OP if FT was truly OP that would instantly make him more used. Like, I pointed out FT is not OP, it fits a niche within hit kit but is by no means OP. If your opponent is within this range then sure go for it. If hes above or below use a different move. An OP move would be something like Diddys Uair. Useful for pretty much every situation, a good combo starter and an absurd killing move. FT is only good for the later with much worse frame data. If they added Iframes then yes FT would tip into OP it's the lack of iframes, situational percents, and startup that keeps the move from being OP.

 

[Murlough]

Unless you are actually the worst smash player Jab 1 will combo only to jab 2.

....uh, dude. I'm sure your right about what you are saying but you don't have to constantly call someone an awful player (This is the third time in the thread). Some poeple get misinformation or make mistakes. That doesn't immediately mean they are the "worst player."

Anyway, Cloud hasn't had enough time to be determined as OP. Give the meta time to adjust to him and if FT is considered uncounterable (which it won't be) THEN we can say he is in need of rebalancing.

 

[Rubiss]

"You can do Jab 1 -> FT I am fairly sure"
uhh no. Unless you are actually the worst smash player Jab 1 will combo only to jab 2. FAF is pretty high on Jab 1. I think the fact that you think Jab > FT is a true combo shows that you should not be talking about this character in any competitive sense.

"Now I could just be salty over some Cloud shenanigans, but given how early FT kills (especially without rage), I don't see why it wouldn't be used tournaments as a mix up."

Again,, frame sixteen has no armor. jabs and tilts can beat it out. Not to mention the KO percent for FT stops being effective when LB Cross Slash kills, and, as I detailed in previous posts, comes out earlier, has iframes, and less end lag. THis means FT should ONLY be used between sixty and 90 percent. That's a small window. After 90 you're much better off using Cross slash.

Again, if FT was truly OP we would see Clouds wining/being used in spades. He is not, and, from my knowledge he has only one one or two locals. Even if Cloud wasnt OP if FT was truly OP that would instantly make him more used. Like, I pointed out FT is not OP, it fits a niche within hit kit but is by no means OP. If your opponent is within this range then sure go for it. If hes above or below use a different move. An OP move would be something like Diddys Uair. Useful for pretty much every situation, a good combo starter and an absurd killing move. FT is only good for the later with much worse frame data. If they added Iframes then yes FT would tip into OP it's the lack of iframes, situational percents, and startup that keeps the move from being OP.

I never said that Jab -> FT was true. It's just a setup. I got that information from a thread in this very forum. The post itself has never been disputed as of January 11th, 2016. Here is post.

All of these I'm testing in training mode on Omega Midgar on a Mario CPU, so therefore will have no rage, DI, etc, so may not be the most accurate thing. Will add more as I find more. Any combo I say would be true is true according to the counter on training mode. Gathering replays using the combos to record with probably a potato on my 3DS. Also, any combo I find is from only my friends or me testing it, so if its already listed and I add it, sorry. Starting to test things in actual matches now to see how practical they are and how well they work.

Jab Combos
Jab 1->Side Smash, Safe to say it works until around 110%. Does 20%.
Jab 1+2->Side Smash, safe to say it works BEST until around 70%. Does 24%.

It doesn't account for DI. I looked at Cloud's frame data myself and I've actually decided to recant my statement about FT being OP. You've made good points. However, I don't think it's very difficult land. Is it the best option? Not usually. It works up until a certain point. I don't think FT is OP anymore and I really don't think Cloud needs any changes, including ledge snapping. I don't see why he would need special treatment when character's like Kirby and Ike don't snap to ledge unless sweetspotted.

 

[Planty]

It's like telling a Ness player to run in and grab and Rosalina. Sure, backthrow kills her at like 120% (if I recall correctly. May be earlier) but grabbing Rosalina is not easy.

Off topic, but it kills at 84% on FD. That's with optimal DI and no rage. It kills much earlier if those 2 variables are different.

 

[PapaJ]

....uh, dude. I'm sure your right about what you are saying but you don't have to constantly call someone an awful player (This is the third time in the thread). Some poeple get misinformation or make mistakes. That doesn't immediately mean they are the "worst player."

Anyway, Cloud hasn't had enough time to be determined as OP. Give the meta time to adjust to him and if FT is considered uncounterable (which it won't be) THEN we can say he is in need of rebalancing.

If you present a clear argument that I feel can be talked about civilly and share ideas with a player who has there ideas clearly laid out, like the OP, I will not insult. However, If you start senselessly start saying "X is OP" with no tournament data, or tied in with a reference of an actual OP move, and then you go on to say a Jab "might be able to setup into FT I will call you out. I believe calling out bad ideas/players helps to cull the spread of baseless whining in which there is no proof. I will not hold your hand, if you do provide actual evidence I will not call you out because you are spreading actual ideas.

I never said that Jab -> FT was true. It's just a setup. I got that information from a thread in this very forum. The post itself has never been disputed as of January 11th, 2016. Here is post.



It doesn't account for DI. I looked at Cloud's frame data myself and I've actually decided to recant my statement about FT being OP. You've made good points. However, I don't think it's very difficult land. Is it the best option? Not usually. It works up until a certain point. I don't think FT is OP anymore and I really don't think Cloud needs any changes, including ledge snapping. I don't see why he would need special treatment when character's like Kirby and Ike don't snap to ledge unless sweetspotted.

Even if a post hasn't been disputed doesn't mean it's true or not. Im not sure if its the Cloud forums themselves but we seem to get very little users. Usually I test interesting ideas, such as this possible jab setup, but I usually am doing winter work for college so I tend to be busy. Although this week I can start testing because I have one week till spring semester starts.

 

[Julesimanerd]

While I can see people saying Clouds F-Smash is OP, but how I see it and how I play, Cloud isn't the best at getting combos or dealing out jabs little by little. He has a very aggressive approach so his attacks that he does have are big and strong. His Limit breaks when the meter isn't full is his bread and butter to raise that percentage.

 

[Ximlee]

Honestly, the only change I would give him is allowing normal Climhazzard to ledge snap. Other than that, cloud is pretty set.

I think that'll really help him stay in a good spot tier wise once people have learned to abuse his weaknesses

 

[JohnnyB]

It's really unfortunate that they designed Cloud to have a weak recovery like that, i really can't imagine him having any chance of getting back onstage vs Zss(flip kick), Rosa(dair), and probably Shiek(offstsge bouncing fish?) without his limit break. From a competitive sense that looks really bad.

 

[blackghost]

It's really unfortunate that they designed Cloud to have a weak recovery like that, i really can't imagine him having any chance of getting back onstage vs Zss(flip kick), Rosa(dair), and probably Shiek(offstsge bouncing fish?) without his limit break. From a competitive sense that looks really bad.

judging by your somment you haven't watched much cloud in tourment. im just going to leave it at that.
its so funny how each character board has its own character or personality. These cloud players are insisting they need buffs. why does cloud need a buff? if you want to snap to the ledge you aren't getting that buff. he clearly was designed to have that flaw.
so inexchange he has massive hitboxes, the (seceond) best anti zoning mechanic in the game, terrifying upair, and a fair spike.
yet cloud mains want grab combos (what sword character has those?), kill confirms (again why is that nescassary) and want better recovery.
ya'll are sad. he doesnt need any of that. cloud is probably one of the best done characters in this game.

 

[turkleton]

I don't think cloud needs any buffs, considering how he was balanced around having an exploitable recovery, and from a casual standpoint I really hope he doesn't. His problem, in my opinion, is that he has a very low skill floor, like link and little Mac, and has a decent skill cap. If any changes were to be made to cloud I think they should be things that raise his skill floor, but keep his performance at the skill cap the same, and I think the best way to do that would be to make his fsmash one hit, keeping the total damage and final kb the same but without the lingering hitbox, making it spot dodge and counter able.

 

[PapaJ]

I don't think cloud needs any buffs, considering how he was balanced around having an exploitable recovery, and from a casual standpoint I really hope he doesn't. His problem, in my opinion, is that he has a very low skill floor, like link and little Mac, and has a decent skill cap. If any changes were to be made to cloud I think they should be things that raise his skill floor, but keep his performance at the skill cap the same, and I think the best way to do that would be to make his fsmash one hit, keeping the total damage and final kb the same but without the lingering hitbox, making it spot dodge and counter able.

"Has a very low skill floor, like link and little mac"

"link and little mac"

Actually, the skill floor with Mac is high. If you don't know what you're doing you are done. There are tournaments showing Macs going up against shiek and winning. Whereas they are destroyed if they play bad. As for Link, you can see a good link vs a bad link. Having a low skill floor is essentially a character like Prepatch Diddy, or C.Falcon. Also that would break Clouds Fsmash, since the weaker hit allow an attempt to clash and stop it. Also your connection between "low skill floor" and his Fsmash is far fetched. His Fsmash is counterable and most Smash attacks stop spotdoging, because they usually come out at the tail end of the Iframes of spot dodge.

If you're going to propose something then please make sure it makes sense. If you're gonna use the argument "low skill floor" then please provide evidence. Do not be vague. Show tourney footage of a jobber beating a well known player, or a weak cloud player going through bracket,

judging by your somment you haven't watched much cloud in tourment. im just going to leave it at that.
its so funny how each character board has its own character or personality. These cloud players are insisting they need buffs. why does cloud need a buff? if you want to snap to the ledge you aren't getting that buff. he clearly was designed to have that flaw.
so inexchange he has massive hitboxes, the (seceond) best anti zoning mechanic in the game, terrifying upair, and a fair spike.
yet cloud mains want grab combos (what sword character has those?), kill confirms (again why is that nescassary) and want better recovery.
ya'll are sad. he doesnt need any of that. cloud is probably one of the best done characters in this game.

Actually I have and there only seems to be two good Clouds. Tweek, and I think Trela. While they can do well with him it's not a cake walk as everyone perceives him to be. Also, where are we talking about buffs? From what I see we're on a thread advocating a nerf and his only buff would be one more option to ledge snap. No one is talking about buffs in a large capacity. Also, Link, Roy, and Robin are sword users and have throw combos, I am not saying Cloud needs it but I am also pointing our your bad logic. Also, you're reaching with your last statement. We have insufficient data to prove that claim.

It's really unfortunate that they designed Cloud to have a weak recovery like that, i really can't imagine him having any chance of getting back onstage vs Zss(flip kick), Rosa(dair), and probably Shiek(offstsge bouncing fish?) without his limit break. From a competitive sense that looks really bad.

Limit Break Up B. It takes six seconds to get, and we're guaranteed at least one. Cloud main need to learn to juggle Limit charge. Even at 30 frames of charges here and there allows Cloud to get limit in 10 charges without an overcommitment. If we lean to juggle limit we can time it to have a limit when we fly offstage and recover.

While I can see people saying Clouds F-Smash is OP, but how I see it and how I play, Cloud isn't the best at getting combos or dealing out jabs little by little. He has a very aggressive approach so his attacks that he does have are big and strong. His Limit breaks when the meter isn't full is his bread and butter to raise that percentage.

He actually is designed around defensive and pokey. While he has the speed, and certain aerials. You should always be playing with a defensive mindset. Playing offensively is the best way to get pushed offstaged and gimped.

 

[TurboLink]

Rest says hi. And comes out faster than FT. Plus has Invincibility frames. AND does damage.

Rest is also attached to the lightest character in the game and leaves you completely vulnerable for several more frames than Finishing Touch. It also doesn't have a windbox or as much range as Finishing Touch.

judging by your somment you haven't watched much cloud in tourment. im just going to leave it at that.
its so funny how each character board has its own character or personality. These cloud players are insisting they need buffs. why does cloud need a buff? if you want to snap to the ledge you aren't getting that buff. he clearly was designed to have that flaw.
so inexchange he has massive hitboxes, the (seceond) best anti zoning mechanic in the game, terrifying upair, and a fair spike.
yet cloud mains want grab combos (what sword character has those?), kill confirms (again why is that nescassary) and want better recovery.
ya'll are sad. he doesnt need any of that. cloud is probably one of the best done characters in this game.

Ike, Link, and Roy have grab combos.

 

[blackghost]

Rest is also attached to the lightest character in the game and leaves you completely vulnerable for several more frames than Finishing Touch. It also doesn't have a windbox or as much range as Finishing Touch.



Ike, Link, and Roy have grab combos.

roy? was that a buff i dont think he does. link got some 2 patches ago and ike has some.

 

[ArcanaXIII]

roy? was that a buff i dont think he does. link got some 2 patches ago and ike has some.

Fthrow to Nair is a true combo. Been there since day 1.

 

[Ninja Girl]

Rest and KO punch are obviously better overall as moves than Finishing Touch, but they belong to Jigglypuff and Little Mac. Jiggs needs rest badly to make up for her being insanely light (especially in a game with Rage), having poor ground speed and ground moves, etc. Mac needs KO punch to make up for his awful aerial game and recovery.

I think the people complaining about FT don't like the fact that Cloud gets a similar move when he doesn't have the same kinds of holes in his kit that Puff and Mac have. Yes Cloud has a crappy Up B without limit break but I'm not a big fan of the Little Mac comparison. Cloud has an extremely dangerous aerial game, Little Mac has almost none whatsoever. Cloud can fight you offstage, he can juggle you, and he can contest your attempts to combo/juggle with his own aerials. Little Mac cannot do any of these things. Sure you can abuse his poor Up B when he's forced to use it and has no limit in a similar way to Mac, but he has so many tools to dominate in neutral, punish mistakes, rack up damage, and consistently kill very early. I think people are annoyed that in addition to all of Cloud's other strengths (knockback, range, damage, priority, disjoints, projectile, limit, mobility, etc.) he also has a cheese low percent kill that you have to worry about as well.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing Cloud's recovery buffed to snap to the ledge, at the expense of nerfs to the rest of his kit to make him feel less gimmicky.

 

[PapaJ]

Rest and KO punch are obviously better overall as moves than Finishing Touch, but they belong to Jigglypuff and Little Mac. Jiggs needs rest badly to make up for her being insanely light (especially in a game with Rage), having poor ground speed and ground moves, etc. Mac needs KO punch to make up for his awful aerial game and recovery.

I think the people complaining about FT don't like the fact that Cloud gets a similar move when he doesn't have the same kinds of holes in his kit that Puff and Mac have. Yes Cloud has a crappy Up B without limit break but I'm not a big fan of the Little Mac comparison. Cloud has an extremely dangerous aerial game, Little Mac has almost none whatsoever. Cloud can fight you offstage, he can juggle you, and he can contest your attempts to combo/juggle with his own aerials. Little Mac cannot do any of these things. Sure you can abuse his poor Up B when he's forced to use it and has no limit in a similar way to Mac, but he has so many tools to dominate in neutral, punish mistakes, rack up damage, and consistently kill very early. I think people are annoyed that in addition to all of Cloud's other strengths (knockback, range, damage, priority, disjoints, projectile, limit, mobility, etc.) he also has a cheese low percent kill that you have to worry about as well.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing Cloud's recovery buffed to snap to the ledge, at the expense of nerfs to the rest of his kit to make him feel less gimmicky.

I mean, he would be gimmicky if FT was his only way to KO. He has any LB Special. Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair, uair, and fair. LB just gives cloud sometime to stand from the crowd, and add more to his kit. FT is probably the least effective in terms of KOing the opponent unless comboed. LB Blade Beam, LB Cross Slash, hell even LB Climhazzard are better easier moves to land overall due to range and frame data. So, as I have said in this thread, FT is a situational killer with his other moves being useful without it being situational. Clouds defensive nature and his bad recovery go hand in hand if you play offensively all the time without thinking you're gonna get bodied. You need to learn to space and poke and force approaches.

 

[blackghost]

I mean, he would be gimmicky if FT was his only way to KO. He has any LB Special. Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair, uair, and fair. LB just gives cloud sometime to stand from the crowd, and add more to his kit. FT is probably the least effective in terms of KOing the opponent unless comboed. LB Blade Beam, LB Cross Slash, hell even LB Climhazzard are better easier moves to land overall due to range and frame data. So, as I have said in this thread, FT is a situational killer with his other moves being useful without it being situational. Clouds defensive nature and his bad recovery go hand in hand if you play offensively all the time without thinking you're gonna get bodied. You need to learn to space and poke and force approaches.

FT is more of a threat than a universal killing tool

 

[PapaJ]

FT is more of a threat than a universal killing tool

Uhh yeah, that's actually a better way to put it. Thanks.

 

[TurboLink]

FT is more of a threat than a universal killing tool

What are you talking about?

 

[PapaJ]

What are you talking about?

The threat that "if you mess up, and Cloud has FT, he can KO you as early as 60%". While FT should only be used for combos, imo, the fact that you haev that KO power makes it a threat by itself.

 

[Thirtyfour]

It's not like he's without any horrible match ups. He's just anti meta. If anyone needs to be rebalanced it'd be Ryu.

 

[TurboLink]

It's not like he's without any horrible match ups. He's just anti meta. If anyone needs to be rebalanced it'd be Ryu.

Why does Ryu need to be rebalanced?

 

[blackghost]

It's not like he's without any horrible match ups. He's just anti meta. If anyone needs to be rebalanced it'd be Ryu.

most people are starting to realize it. the (new) dlc characters have more options than the default cast. but thats for another discussion.

 

[Managomous]

Cloud was released on December 15th...

Does Cloud need to be re-balanced? In my honest opinion, I believe he has to be nerfed in the sense that, he has too many options as of right now.

But also, my unbiased opinion is, Cloud has been out for less than a month. Nobody has really unlocked the real potential of Cloud, and will probably not do so for a while. But I will say, from what I am seeing, people are becoming more and more accustomed to him, and I truly believe he will be one of the top tier characters soon. Unless he gets nerfed, but we'll see.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Why does Ryu need to be rebalanced?

Because he has ridiculously easy to execute setups into early KOs? And up-tilt locks?

If that doesn't need to be rebalanced, I don't know what the **** does.

 

[Conn1496]

Because he has ridiculously easy to execute setups into early KOs? And up-tilt locks?

If that doesn't need to be rebalanced, I don't know what the **** does.

I hate to say it, but Ryu is actually really balanced from a risk/reward and skill/reward standpoint IMO. Plus his range is kinda pathetic, so most swordies or disjoints will beat him out anyway from my experience. I might genuinely hate Ryu, but I'm not gonna say he's "bad" or "OP".

Also, just sayin' - this thread is about Cloud.

[Edit]: Also, just because it keeps getting brought up - my thoughts on FT are pretty neutral, it's an insane punish, but it's also really kind of bad if you can't guarantee a confirm. Yes, it's a scary move and it belongs to an already kind of scary character, but it's not something that Cloud relies on, and I think that's fair. If anything, it feels a little tacked on, since it's only your most reliable kill option for roughly 30%. -and that 30% window is basically non-existent. Contrast that with Jiggs and Mac where Rest is basically your best kill option from a relatively low % (-and is not as situational to boot.), and KO Punch is a guaranteed, unblockable move, with super armor that can kill from anything over about 30% on the heaviest characters, that can also be confirmed despite being situational, and FT looks by far the worst out of the 3, not even taking into account the fact that it's the slowest of the 3, or even in relation to the characters they belong to.

I think that people are actually just more scared of Limits in general than FT in particular too, so FT kind of gets overshadowed by all three other options you have in Limit to boot, and Mac/Jiggs don't have anything like that to compliment their KO Punch/Rest.

If Cloud's other Limits were weaker, then yes, maybe FT would be something to complain about, but then you wouldn't be scared of Cloud at all, anyway since he wouldn't have some of his arguably strongest options anymore.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

There is virtually zero risk to walking forward while up-tilting. And the reward is grotesque.

 

[TurboLink]

There is virtually zero risk to walking forward while up-tilting. And the reward is grotesque.

You risk being outranged and hit by the opponent's attack. You have to be almost sitting on top of the opponent for up tilt to hit. Walking forward and just spamming up tilt is not some auto-win button/action for Ryu.

Ryu's walk speed is also pretty slow.

 

[Conn1496]

You risk being outranged and hit by the opponent's attack. You have to be almost sitting on top of the opponent for up tilt to hit. Walking forward and just spamming up tilt is not some auto-win button/action for Ryu.

Yeah, I don't pay attention to Ryu at all, and even I know that U-tilt is pretty abysmal in the range department. Just get around it, or beat it with basically any other move. I honestly can't think of a single character who struggles to beat Ryu's U-tilt when it's not a confirm or anything. lol

 

[GHNeko]

2/10 thread

why does this discussion have to be made so early in a character's lifespan.

no to climhazzard ledge snap. it doesnt matter if it marginally improves his recovery because he's super gimpable at points X Y and Z. he still has 2 methods of stalling, a way of covering his recovery via projectile, a SIZABLE wall jump, and a recovery that still has decent hitboxes that practically guarantees recovery if it hits on the way up or down as long as your intelligent about it. on top of that, cloud has decent horizontal magnent hands so getting poked AT THE LEDGE when trying to sweet spot is usually cloud's fault. windboxes and waterboxes are match up specific and you should just deal with that MU instead of trying to buff a character as a whole because of, literally, a handful of match ups.

no to FT nerfs due it killing so early because as previously mentioned, the optimal window for FT kills are like 50-90% depending on opponent weight, clouds rage, and the platform he hits with it. LB Cross Slash becomes just as effective as FT around 80% depending on variables while having a much better risk:reward ratio than FT and STAYS like that for the rest of the opponents stock. FT at that point is basically an other easy way to kill your opponent and if that scares you than GOOD. Be scared. Limit Break is supposed to be scary.

no to fsmash nerfs because it comes out on frame 19 and average reaction time is around 20~25 frames. If you're expecting it, then its even easier to see coming. You cant combo into and its not likely to shield poke. It being multihit is not a good thing because SDI exists and multi-hit moves inherently have the potential for opponents to fall out of it. Most fsmash kills are punishes, hard reads, or someone making a mistake while in shield. its punishable on whiff and on block by a variety of moves including GRABS which a lot of characters can get kill confirms off of. From the time Fsmash hit 3 hitbox expires to IASA, there is a whooping 36 frames of cooldown for cloud to deal with. yes there it shield stun, but even if we assume that shield stun cuts down vulnerability by 50% (and suggesting 18f of shield stun is stupid generous), that's still 18 frames of CD that cloud is a punching bag for.

no to uair changes. if you think uair is ridiculous than ya'll would **** on yourself at melee marth uair. the move has limited horizontal hitboxes and only combos into itself a few times without platforms and only from low to medium percents; this limits its usage in neutral dramatically and basically turns it into a juggling/combo move. it doesnt outshine his other aerials so dramatically much that you want to use it over Nair or Dair all the damn time. It's also not safe on shield so you can be mindless with it. its damn good and that's perfectly ****ing fine. let the move be good.

theorycraft is great and all but its just theory and what matters is plausibility and execution. trying to valdiate a viewpoint of whether something is too good or not good enough simply off of "well if player A reads/predicts this and that" without tangible evidence to prove the likelyhood of such, is not a strong argument because reality doesnt always follow the hard numbers. and that arguement goes both ways (in clouds favor, and against clouds favor) so relying on just this is just dumb.

the arguement that "Cloud isnt winning tourneys so he shouldnt be changed" is also nonsense because a poorly designed character needs to be fixed regardless of whether they're winning or not. That comes before competitive viability because NO ONE deserves their spot in a tier list.

THAT BEING SAID.

cloud is not a poorly designed character. he is very solid overall and as such nothing needs to be rebalanced for the sake of fixing his design.


in conclusion;

this thread is silly and people should just adapt to the character and see how effective his current design is in several months and reassess their feelings on this characters tools before tackling this topic.



PS:
this is the type of **** that gets the community hard to take seriously; not only in smash, but in other modern FGs.

nerf this. buff that. change this. update that. not even a month after the character drops.

not to implying that cloud DOESNT need changes and that everyone needs to gitgud, but that is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too early for this ****.


EDIT: And Ftilt is FINE. It's also a solid tool; despite being situational due to being outshined by the rest of his ground moveset. But guess what; unless a character is perfectly balanced, there are going to be moves that are relatively lackluster and see less use. But as long as it still sees use and is fairly useful then it can remain as such. Ftilt falls into that category.

 

[Legato]

People thought Roy's fsmash killed too early, people wondered if we should change him too when he first came out (though many cried for nerfs). Now he sits maybe middle tier, maybe low-high, but nobody calls for changes. I think once we figure out how to handle Cloud and how to use him that it will balance itself. I will admit, as a pika main it hurts when I get killed at 80% by fsmash, but it just means I need to respect the move more. I think he's fine.

 

[GHNeko]

ill be real. i'm not used to having a good move i never expect fsmash to kill at 70 with level 1 rage on the edge of FD, but it does and I feel bad.

but hey.

not my fault they were read by my pivot smash LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

stop pressing buttons at the ledge niggas lmaooo

 

[Duplighost]

Honesty, the only thing I think should be changed about Cloud is the fact that his Limit charges both when he charges it voluntarily, and when he is hit. It's almost like Cloud is being rewarded for getting attacked, does anyone else agree? If he only had the ability to increase his Limit meter solely by his command, I wouldn't be so bothered by it, but because poorly experienced Clouds are getting rewarded for me hitting them and then having them KO me at 70% is both annoying and discouraging.

Some may argue, "Well, Little Mac has the same thing," but experienced Little Macs purposely take damage through Super Armor to rack up their KO Meter. A Cloud, on the other hand, would never purposely and strategically fall into an attack to increase the Limit meter like a Little Mac would.

Just a thought. Not sure if it's relevant to everyone else's opinion, but personally I'm bothered by it. I know it doesn't give Cloud a huge advantage, but it's just one of those small things that weren't really necessary.

 

[GHNeko]

Nah. I dont think it should be changed because of the fact that not only is it a nice gimmick, but it would also be hypocritical to remove this thing for Cloud but not get rid of Lucario's aura. You'd also have to be for removing rage.

Also while Little Mac's can purposely take damage through super armor, I'm almost 100% sure Little Macs never intend to take damage strictly for the sale of building meter for KO Punch. I'm almost 100% sure that 99% of the time, they use super armor to stuff moves and building KO meter is just an afterthought/after effect.

Not only that but in the case of Cloud, it puts more emphasis on getting cloud off stage to gimp him as a form of counter play to his limit mechanic.

Limit Break is also not a straight up buff to cloud as it essentially seals free usage of specials and changes how the neutral should be played as cloud and against cloud; unlike mac and lucario for all intents and purposes can be played the exact same with full aura/KO punch.

Cloud is more flexible and versitile without limit mode on, so if you cant manage the neutral as cloud with limit break due to not being able to freely use specials, then you'll suffer for it and in the long run; i feel that it general will cost you the stock and at the vest least the limit break you took damage for.

It's a super gimmicky mechanic, but considering how this game plays, its still overall fairly tame compared to the pre-existing mechanics in game.

 

[MarioMeteor]

If you get hit by forward smash, you deserve the flight you're taking.

 

[Conn1496]

If you get hit by forward smash, you deserve the flight you're taking.

Unless it pokes through your shield, or it hits you mid-counter, etc. -which it occasionally does. I don't even like when it does it and I'm playing Cloud. It just feels - I dunno - dishonest.

My main problem with Cloud's F-smash is honestly the serious amount of jank I've already faced with it. lol I could forgive the strength if I didn't get hit by it from no fault of my own a good 10% of the time I actually get hit by it.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Unless it pokes through your shield, or it hits you mid-counter, etc. -which it occasionally does. I don't even like when it does it and I'm playing Cloud. It just feels - I dunno - dishonest.

My main problem with Cloud's F-smash is honestly the serious amount of jank I've already faced with it. lol I could forgive the strength if I didn't get hit by it from no fault of my own a good 10% of the time I actually get hit by it.

That definitely sounds like a "you" problem. If your judgement tells you to shield a frame 19 move and not just jump or roll, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Conn1496]

That definitely sounds like a "you" problem. If your judgement tells you to shield a frame 19 move and not just jump or roll, then I don't know what to tell you.

Saying "just don't shield it" isn't really a solution, sometimes it's the fastest reaction you have, or they catch you shield-stopping, etc. You might just even wanna hold an advantageous spot for a powerful OoS option (Most notably with characters that have killing forward/back throws if you're close to a ledge.), and since F-smash hits 3 times, you can't even spot dodge it to hold that position. -and again, there's also a problem with it beating at least one counter, which is a problem in and of itself.

I'm not saying "It's something that I literally can never beat." because that would make me an idiot, it's a damned F-smash, but again, the move is janky enough that it doesn't even matter if I see it coming sometimes, and that "sometimes" is really irritating, because dying when you made a defensive move that has a slim chance of being randomly unsafe is not something you want in a game.

Also, if you space it correctly, the move covers some characters' rolls in, so even rolls aren't guaranteed to be safe in certain situations.

I'm just pointing out that the move has a few wild properties to it that make it far more above average than if it was just a strong, moderately fast F-smash. -again, I play Cloud enough for this to be something that's happened from both sides of the situation multiple times, so I can tell you with confidence that I'm not the only one having a problem with Cloud's F-smash.

 

[Virum]

I think the fact that FSmash has been a discussion point in this thread really highlights to me how little people actually know about balance. FSmash is not a problematic move. Its range and power are offset by its slow startup, the fact that it's super punishable on block even when well spaced and the fact that it clanks with jabs and other weak moves. This is not a move worth complaining about, nor is it remotely close to being too strong.

Honestly I feel Cloud as a whole is in an alright spot in terms of balance. There may be some questionable elements of his design but at the moment I don't think the character is too overbearing. He's merely a very solid character with a lot of strengths and distinct weaknesses.