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Shine grab vs doubleshine grab

Crossie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Messages
84
Location
Seattle, WA
What are the pros and cons of each? I was talking to someone about this and I was under the impression that you can buffer a roll out of shine grab but not double shine grab. They didn't agree, but neither of us had enough frame knowledge to know who was right.
 

Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
Every character but Bowser can always spotdodge or roll out of single-shine grab. Here's the frame data (for Marth, but almost all characters start their spotdodge and roll intangibility at the same time so it's widely applicable): http://smashboards.com/threads/good-uses-for-nair.405792/#post-19537867

Here's the frame data for a double-shine where the victim buffers an action on the first shine (also on Marth):
Frame|Attacker|Victim (spotdodge)|Victim (forwards roll)|Victim (backwards roll)
1|Hitlag|Hitlag|Hitlag|Hitlag
2|Hitlag|Hitlag|Hitlag|Hitlag
3|Hitlag|Hitlag|Hitlag|Hitlag
4|Hitlag|Hitlag|Hitlag|Hitlag
5|Inactionable frame of shine|Shieldstun|Shieldstun|Shieldstun
6|Inactionable frame of shine|Shieldstun|Shieldstun|Shieldstun
7|Jumpsquat|Shieldstun|Shieldstun|Shieldstun
8|Jumpsquat|Shieldstun|Shieldstun|Shieldstun
9|Jumpsquat|Spotdodge startup|Roll startup|Roll startup
10|(Shine hitbox active)|Spotdodge intangibility|(Roll startup)|(Roll startup)
The entries for frame 10 are in brackets because the characters are actually in hitlag from the shine at that point.

As you can see, if the victim spotdodges then they will avoid the shine and subsequent grab, and if they roll then they will get hit out of the startup frames of their roll. Almost all rolls are intangible on frame 4, so it's a 2 frame window to hit them out of their roll if the shine is not stale, and a 1 frame window if the shine is stale (occupying somewhere around 2 or 3 positions in the stale moves queue) since that reduces the shieldstun by 1 frame.

Since Jigglypuff's forward roll is intangible on frame 3, she can buffer roll out of double-shine grab if the shine is stale (which is likely to be the case most of the time unless the Fox has just spawned or has been lasering heavily). Jigglypuff is the only character that can do this; the intangibility on both rolls starts on frame 4 for every other character except for Bowser, for whom it starts on frame 5.
 
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1000g2g3g4g800999

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 21, 2012
Messages
368
Location
Earth
Other things to note: they can buffer the input during the second shine, and Fox will have to wait an additional two frames after the second shine to JC grab.
 
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