Shields: Everything you need to know about them

[Sangoku]

Yep it's a nice discovery. Don't know yet how viable it is, but hopefully some current shield breaks won't be anymore.

 

[SheerMadness]

I think most of us knew that doing something out of your shield is faster than just letting go. Not sure I'm sold holding down makes it any quicker.

I'll definitely give it a try though.

 

[Sangoku]

Oh really? I thought it was new lol. Weird I had never heard about it then. And doing something OoS is only quicker if you have been hit in your shield, not if you were just holding it.

 

[The Star King]

I didn't know.

 

[SheerMadness]

Really? You guys never noticed the difference in just letting go vs upsmashing or something?

Plus theres a lot of instances like that with Yoshi breaking shields. You don't quite get the shield break but they're still in shield stun and their shield breaks in a delayed fashion because they chose to just let go of their shield.

 

[*rotaryTXR*]

I have now filled my brain with all the infomation I could cram in it with info on shields. Thanks for taking up my brain capacity.

 

[Sangoku]

Okay so I just got back on this (will do more the following days) and I will really have hard work...

Things seem really complicated.

1) Concerning shield deflection I don't know what else can be added except that it does indeed full damage and it only works when the hit touches an end of the shield (the angle will depend on that). What I think is if the laser (for example) goes just above the shield it will continue at 180° (obviously). Then if it hits just below the angle will be like 150° and the more it goes down, the smaller the angle gets until the point where it would be 90° where it just gets absorbed by the shield. This is just a hypothesis though and I don't have anything to prove it.

2) Concerning half damage shield grab, that's fortunately easy. If the opponent hit your shield, you get half damage, no matter how long you wait before grabbing. If he doesn't hit your shield you get full damage, no matter how long you hold your shield before grabbing. Also DK's cargo hold does normally 8%, 8% and when you shield grab (after having been hit that is), only the second 8 is divided by two. So it gives 8%, 4%.

3) Concerning the shine, that's where things are starting to get tricky. The shine multiplies by a bit more than 1.8 the damages. Haven't found the exact number yet and I don't understand why it's not an easy number (if not an integer, it could have stopped to the decimal). I don't understand how the knockback is computed either. A completely uncharged samus shot reflected to the maximum would kill the last fox.
Then if I have two foxes reflecting a samus shot, it will go on until it breaks. However if I have another fox shooting a laser between two other foxes, the laser gets reflected on the first fox's shine, reflected on the second fox's shine and then go through the first fox's shine. I only tried it when they were close to each other. A possible hypothesis is the shine reflecting lag/animation/whatever turns fox in another dimension.
Finally I can't manage to see when it breaks precisely. For now I'm at less or equal to 65%.

All this to say I haven't found much. Will do more the next days.

 

[DMoogle]

I only tried it when they were close to each other. A possible hypothesis is the shine reflecting lag/animation/whatever turns fox in another dimension.

Try it when they're far apart. It makes a difference. I'm pretty sure the same effect can be accomplished with, for example, red shells.

 

[The Star King]

Okay so I just got back on this (will do more the following days) and I will really have hard work...

Things seem really complicated.

1) Concerning shield deflection I don't know what else can be added except that it does indeed full damage and it only works when the hit touches an end of the shield (the angle will depend on that). What I think is if the laser (for example) goes just above the shield it will continue at 180° (obviously). Then if it hits just below the angle will be like 150° and the more it goes down, the smaller the angle gets until the point where it would be 90° where it just gets absorbed by the shield. This is just a hypothesis though and I don't have anything to prove it.

Maybe try to find out which angle range of the circle that is the shield will absorb instead of deflecting? I doubt it has to be exactly 90 degrees. Not sure how you would do this though lol.

2) Concerning half damage shield grab, that's fortunately easy. If the opponent hit your shield, you get half damage, no matter how long you wait before grabbing. If he doesn't hit your shield you get full damage, no matter how long you hold your shield before grabbing. Also DK's cargo hold does normally 8%, 8% and when you shield grab (after having been hit that is), only the second 8 is divided by two. So it gives 8%, 4%.

Oh, I thought you had to do it soon after the shield stun ends for some reason lol. Do you have to grab the person that attacked your shield? Or does any attack hitting your shield cause half damage in any following shield grabs, meaning you can get hit by Player 2 and shield grab Player 3 for half damage?

3) Concerning the shine, that's where things are starting to get tricky. The shine multiplies by a bit more than 1.8 the damages. Haven't found the exact number yet and I don't understand why it's not an easy number (if not an integer, it could have stopped to the decimal). I don't understand how the knockback is computed either. A completely uncharged samus shot reflected to the maximum would kill the last fox.
Then if I have two foxes reflecting a samus shot, it will go on until it breaks. However if I have another fox shooting a laser between two other foxes, the laser gets reflected on the first fox's shine, reflected on the second fox's shine and then go through the first fox's shine. I only tried it when they were close to each other. A possible hypothesis is the shine reflecting lag/animation/whatever turns fox in another dimension.
Finally I can't manage to see when it breaks precisely. For now I'm at less or equal to 65%.

All this to say I haven't found much. Will do more the next days.

It's multiplied by 1.8 AND rounded up to the next integer after each deflection. I haven't seen an example of this being wrong.

I have no idea how to calculate knockback lol

I'm guessing for the laser, the two Foxes were too close together (if you used the same distance for charge shot, remember that lasers travel faster). I think if you're still in the deflection animation other projectiles will pass through. So don't put them close together lol

For calculating when the shine breaks precisely... I know it's between 49% (charge shot deflected once) and 60% (red shell deflected 3 times). I HIGHLY suspect it's the same 55% as a shield (although it's impossible to get 55 from multiplying an integer by 1.8 and rounding up, so far all intents and purposes, it'll be 56%). If this true, as well as the 1.8 + rounding up thing, a projectile would need to do at least 31% before deflection to break a shine. I don't know of any projectile that does that much damage initially, so taking it a step further, a projectile would need to do at least 17% before two deflections to break a shine. I couldn't find a projectile that does exactly 17%, so taking it a step further again, we would need a 9% projectile. I am experimenting as I am writing this post lol

I used a Samus charge shot charged to 9%. And it did indeed break Fox's shine after three deflections, so it's less than or equal to 56%.

If there was a 30% projectile we could get it between 54 and 56, but I don't think there is. If there was a 16% or a 29% projectile we could get it between 53 and 56, but I couldn't find any of those either (except throwing items, whose damage I think depends on the speed of the item when it hits the character instead of just a constant damage, so I didn't really want to deal with that). We can't get 28, so we have to settle for 27, which we can get from 15.

I used a Samus charge shot charged to 15%. It didn't break Fox's shine after three deflections, so it's greater than 49.

So we know it's between 49 and 56. Is it possible to change the damage of attacks using GS codes? If we can do that, we can get more precise results.

 

[Then123]

Wonderful guide, it helps!

 

[Sangoku]

^That makes my heart shine. Guess what section I just added lol.

I will be now working on a "what to do while shielding" section, where I could mention (among other things of course) the shield grab doing half damage. Oh and by the way, this is property of the shield grabber: which means if p1 gets hit into his shield by p2 and then shield grabs p3, the grab will do half damage.

edit: haven't thanked you for your shine's HP research Star King sorry >__>. So thank you lol.

 

[erbanez]

This post is hidden in a shield and will not be visible until you look at it for about 10 seconds.

 

[Removed By Request]

Are there any attacks that can shatter a full shield completely? Luigi's Up+B seems like it should, or maybe Jigglypuff's Rest....

 

[ciaza]

I think we've covered that question before... iirc Samus upB, Samus upsmash, Yoshi dair and FAN FSMASH break a shield.

I think Samus upsmash is controversial.

Luigi can dair>uair>upB breaks a shield

Jiggs stuff>fsmash>rest does too.

 

[asianaussie]

Luigi can use N-Air in place of U-Air if FF U-Air is a hassle for you.

 

[The Star King]

Samus upsmash was only controversial because of me, and I was proven wrong by Sangoku's shield thread lol

 

[crush]

jiggs usmash?

 

[The Star King]

So, you're gonna start trolling the 64 boards, too? Melee wasn't enough for you?

inb4imnotatroll

 

[crush]

So, you're gonna start trolling the 64 boards, too? Melee wasn't enough for you?

inb4imnotatroll

Wow, very well thought out post ignoring the fact that it could be countered by a well-timed "pics or it didn't happen". Define "troll" please.

 

[The Star King]

Level 5 - Troll

Attack skill: 14
Defense skill: 7
Shots: n/a
Damage: 10-15
Health: 40
Speed: 7
Cost: 500 gold
Weekly growth: 3 per week
Special abilities: Regeneration - Top creature in stack regenerates all health at the start of each round.

 

[crush]

im not a troll >_>

 

[Then123]

Very nice thread, I certainly learned something.

 

[Sempiternity]

This is a great thread. Who woulda thunk that letting go of the controller was NOT the best option for getting out of a shield pressure situation?

 

[joY]

Car insurance?

 

[kenshen]

so how is this coming along because smash 64 is one of my faves and i can't wait for the day when i can play a smash 64 brawl mod

 

[tyler7988569]

Good Read, I actually just got smash 64 from a friends :3

 

[Fractalis]

great info


link's hylian shield also blocks some weak ranged attacks
when jigglypuff's shield fails it gets lauched upward
kirby, and yoshi all have a standard special that can breach a sheild

 

[asianaussie]

pretty sure link's shield does nothing in this game (aside from crouch cancelling)

everyone is launched upwards, jiggs just dies off the top if there's no solid object in her way

captain falcon's up-b also breaches the shield, as does the hyrule tornado

 

[Sangoku]

Link's shield doesn't do anything.

Kirby's and Yoshi's neutral B is considered as a grab:

It however doesn’t work for grabs (including: Captain Falcon’s upB, Kirby's neutral B and Yoshi's neutral B).

 

[Surri-Sama]

pretty sure link's shield does nothing in this game (aside from crouch cancelling)

The way you say it, it almost seems as if the shield does something during CC

 

[asianaussie]

it means link's crouch cancelling sort of makes sense, as opposed to everyone else's

i don't actually know anything about physics etc so sue me

 

[Surri-Sama]

I assumed "CC" would be like bracing your self for an attack.

 

[yani_]

Never knew there was so much to know about shields o_0 nicely done

 

[Channighan]

Doesn't Fox have a jab --> laser (repeat) to break a shield? But if I remember correctly, this can be avoided by the person who is sheilding to just jump OOS.

 

[Sangoku]

Pretty sure that's not a legit shieldbreak. And that's an euphemism. The time needed to jump and laser is way too long compared to the shieldstun confered by the jab.

I mean I'm sure it doesn't work, but if you want I can try it later to confirm that.

 

[Channighan]

Sure, I really dont know many "legit" shield breaks with Fox.

 

[Sangoku]

There are no easy ones. I mean they would all involve multishining at some point. And as was said, there is almost nobody who can multishine properly (that is who can consistantly shieldbreak).

You can reduce the number of shines by finishing with an upsmash and starting with a nair I guess, but there's not much else you can do.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0q_gFGnZCo
looks like you can also mess around with uair but the fact that he ends up using shines makes me think he could have jumped out of it before the end.

 

[jimmyjoe]

One option Jigglypuff does have is platform dropping on frame 15, then resting on frame 16, thereby getting a rest hit in before the attacking Jigglypuff is able to act (and the rest WILL hit)

Sorry just looking at this again, and thinking about some stuff I don't really understand.
Why will the rest hit? what if the attacking jiggly hit the shielding jiggly at the very end of the hitbox, wouldn't shielding jiggly need some frames to move into range for the rest to hit?

 

[Sangoku]

Of course if the attacking Jiggly jabs from the edge of the hitbox, the rest won't hit. This was just an example on how this 8 frames of shield drop thing could affect an ingame situation. In the first case, the attacking Jiggly has an advantage and could grab/have a legit shieldbreak following and in the second case, the shielding Jiggly could hit/have the stock.

 

[jimmyjoe]

Gotcha. I wasn't sure if there was something I didn't know about rest
But right, jiggly in the second scenario has options.