Shield breaking with desynch?

[Pasqual]

So I've been thinking lately. Peach's pseudo-pillar, if done perfectly, keeps an opponent in shield stun constantly until they shield break. I was wondering if anyone can check some frame data for me to see if there is anyway a couple desynched Icies could do the same. Possibly with jab, ftilt, or dtilt? I wonder about Blizzard's usefulness as well but that's pushing it. I'm guessing that this won't work but I figured it was worth looking into.

 

[dj asakura]

honestly, i've "dreamed" of such a thing.

i highly doubt there's a way to desynch and punish at a constant enough rate to pull it off though. however, if by some miracle there is....

it wont matter to much cause brawl is almost out -_-

but i kid, that'd be solid

 

[cemo]

If they're shielding, why not just jab > grab?

 

[Delphiki]

No need to break a shield, just grab.

If you want to be fancy, the only conceivable way (that I can think of) to do it is with desynched jab cancels. Which would be **** near impossible to pull off.

 

[Miharu]

Regular jab cancels with Ice Climbers is ****ed up enough >_>

 

[psicicle]

wouldn't most of the possible things push the opponent away before their shield breaks?

 

[Pasqual]

Would depend on the opponent's traction and whether they were light shielding, methinks.

Thanks for the input. You guys are probably right but I'm still gonna try a few things next time I have my hands on a Cube.

 

[N1c2k3]

No. Any char would be able to jump/roll out of their shield. Even if they're stuck in a corner, there's no moves that even if pulled off is as rapid succession as possible would create a constant state of shield stun. Kool idea, though...

 

[Pye]

No. Any char would be able to jump/roll out of their shield. Even if they're stuck in a corner, there's no moves that even if pulled off is as rapid succession as possible would create a constant state of shield stun. Kool idea, though...

Are you talking about in the whole game, or just the ICs? Because there ARE move combinations that can keep in constant shieldstun, the most famous one beeing Fox's 4-frame doubleshines. In theory, a perfect Fox player could break a shield as soon as he hit it with a shine, no questions asked, through doubleshines.

Can Peach's pseudo-pillar really shield break? Even Falco's Pillar, frame perfect, can't do that.

My guess is there MUST be some kind of IC shield-breaker, what with all their desynch possibilities. If anything would work, I'd have to put my money on perfectly alternating frame perfect jab-cancels...but uhh...yeah, that's really hard to do

Anyone with AR wanna try them and see if they can be roll buffered out of?

 

[1048576]

I think Peach's Pillar gives two-three frames of freedom after the second jab connects. Still, one nair and two jabs kills an awful lot of shield.

 

[Pasqual]

As far as I read in the thread about Peach's, if perfectly executed, they can't escape. XIF did it to someone at Pound 2 (can't remember who but it was someone I'd heard of before, not some random scrub). I think it's the iFC dair > double jab that leaves escape frames, not the nair version.

I've got a friend who's going to try and find his AR so he can test out the desynced jab cancels and some others for me. Here's hoping that the results, if not successful, at least show something interesting.

 

[Reside]

I have done it to cunning's fox before in a friendly with f-tilts, thats the only time ive pulled it off and im not sure if he just messed up.

 

[dj asakura]

when i read this the first thing that came to my mind was blizzard combos actually, but i know they wont work

i tried doing a dsynch -> nana blizzard/popo roll to other side -> popo blizzard and then just alternate blizzards, but nana was a ***** and kept coming back so i gave up and decided there's no point, haha

 

[Ripple]

As far as I read in the thread about Peach's, if perfectly executed, they can't escape. XIF did it to someone at Pound 2 (can't remember who but it was someone I'd heard of before, not some random scrub). I think it's the iFC dair > double jab that leaves escape frames, not the nair version.

I've got a friend who's going to try and find his AR so he can test out the desynced jab cancels and some others for me. Here's hoping that the results, if not successful, at least show something interesting.

he did it to Cunningkitsune

 

[dj asakura]

i ment to ask this awhile ago but i kept forgetting, what exactly is the jab cancel?

i feel like its something i should know about, but missed

 

[pockyD]

for ICs it's crouching after your first jab so that you can do another jab (not the second jab, but another first jab) asap

 

[dj asakura]

ah, ok

that explains the insane timing...

 

[1048576]

How about a desynched blizzard to Utilt to blizzard etc...

 

[Binx]

Blizzards and utilts push the shield too much and I doubt they have enough stun, I think its more practical if there is something you could do would be like blizzard to grab, even when someone is shield broken if you arent going to kill them with a smash your going to get the most pure damage out of a grab combo, also a grab almost always equals a free smash of some sort anyways so the breaking a shield and finishing them off would be just as difficult, also what method of desynch is going to be used to start this? The only thing I can think of is some crazy sort of noob nana desynch from a fair or bair (I am pretty sure bair is impossible) into blizzard something ect. If someone could find reliable ways to noob nana desynch into a shield break though it would potentially make fighting jigglypuff very entertaining.

 

[dj asakura]

just throwing this out there but i've pretty much got jab cancels down to an art. but really the only time i see being useful is when you have them backed into a corner which really only happens at pokemon stadium when the fire level comes.

as entertainging as shield breaking with the IC's would be, i'm realizing that there really are much better things you can do

 

[Zjiin]

If you've got a large target (i.e. DK) you can easily desynch u-tilts so there is no free window of hitbox frames. Looking at AR, f-tilt and d-tilt are just too slow. Although if you play with people like i do, who switch to light shielding when they see what you are doing, you're just going to push them back to a safe area.

 

[Pasqual]

If someone could find reliable ways to noob nana desynch into a shield break though it would potentially make fighting jigglypuff very entertaining.

That was basically the main idea behind trying to discover if it worked or not, for floaties who aren't susceptible to any particularly special grab combos. A sb'd Jiggs is dead, an sb'd Peach would eat both ICs' charged usmash, which would kill stupidly early on most levels.

As for someone who starts lightshielding instead of regular shield, you'd likely be better off just grabbing (or possibly d/fsmashing into the shield if it's already weakened).

 

[psicicle]

maybe if you got popo and nana on opposite sides of the shield (with a roll desync perhaps) and did desync uptilts. I remember you could do a pseudo infinite with this on an unshielded opponent. (if the opponent didn't DI)

 

[Delphiki]

I think Blizzard and U-tilt would end up shieldstabbing before they broke the shield. Just a reminder: let this thread ignore practicality. Breaking shields is 100% if you can just grab. EVEN AGAINST FLOATIES. Find my post in the floaty characters thread if you don't believe me. ^_^

psicicle: If Nana rolls away from Popo it won't do anything besides a bit of opponent panic. She leaves her leash, and you can't control her, unless you had her roll against a wall. In which case she would slowly be dragged back to Popo's position.

 

[psicicle]

well I guess you'd have to use a desynced wavedash to get nana to the other side then. Maybe it's possible if the opponent tilts their shield or something to prevent stabbing.

 

[mood4food77]

only jiggs

when jiggs breaks her shield...we all know what happens

for whatever reason

but grabbing is more effective

 

[pchoo]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=112627

That's frame-perfect data. Red frames are when they aren't in shield stun.
(for the peach pillar stuff on the first page >.>)

 

[Pasqual]

Weird, my bad about the misinformation on Peach then. Didn't realize that it's actually better without the slaps, as well.

 

[SCOTU]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=112627

That's frame-perfect data. Red frames are when they aren't in shield stun.
(for the peach pillar stuff on the first page >.>)

^^is some of the only true info in this thread. Peach's pillar is worse than People say. Falco's Pillar, when done perfectly is still shieldgrabable. Fox's multishine is escapable. For some reason, i'd overlooked any IC shield pressuring techniques. I'll look into this when i get home, and see what some of the data is on that. Also, if anyone has any other questions regarding frame data, please ask in the thread qutoed.

 

[Pasqual]

Thanks scotu, will do.

 

[SCOTU]

Now that i've thought about it a bit, I think there is definately reason to believe there might be one or more perfect shield pressure techniques for the ice climbers. Unfortuantely, i don't play them, and haven't looked in to their physics much. If someone could answer a few questions for me, it'd expediate my process of frame analysis.
Once you Desynch IC's (and say, you have popo doing some attack, like blizzard) You're free to time Nana's attacks however you like? also, for timing her attacks, is there still a 6 frame delay from when you enter the controls to when she starts, like there is when not desynched, or is her action instantaneous? Thanks, and i'll look into this, since it's very interesting. Good thinking, Pasqual.

 

[choknater]

try this: when someone is shielding, roll at them, and hold the c-stick toward them. nana will fsmash him, popo can dsmash/fsmash, and then you can alternate. if they dodge or jump, you will more than likely hit them. if they roll, you can chase with wd.

pretty effective if you can catch someone in a shield.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Are you talking about in the whole game, or just the ICs? Because there ARE move combinations that can keep in constant shieldstun, the most famous one beeing Fox's 4-frame doubleshines. In theory, a perfect Fox player could break a shield as soon as he hit it with a shine, no questions asked, through doubleshines.

Can Peach's pseudo-pillar really shield break? Even Falco's Pillar, frame perfect, can't do that.

My guess is there MUST be some kind of IC shield-breaker, what with all their desynch possibilities. If anything would work, I'd have to put my money on perfectly alternating frame perfect jab-cancels...but uhh...yeah, that's really hard to do

Anyone with AR wanna try them and see if they can be roll buffered out of?

Fox's shine will hit before the shield breaks because the hit boxes are too big. Falco can break shields because the hit box is much smaller, and the shine is stronger so it takes fewer hits...

Scotu, there is always a 6-frame delay.

 

[SCOTU]

Fox's shine will hit before the shield breaks because the hit boxes are too big. Falco can break shields because the hit box is much smaller, and the shine is stronger so it takes fewer hits...

Fox's shine will *NOT* hit before breaking a shield since it's big. Falco can break shields since his dair *IS* big. To poke a shield, you have to have the hitbox hit them, and *NOT* their shield. Falco's shine doesn't usually shieldpoke, since falco is usually very close to them because of pillar spacing. Fox's drill will often poke, since it has multiple hits, so it will often hit at the bottom, when most of the hitbox is in the ground. Falco's shine does do *significantly* more damage to the shield. Just thought i'd clear that up.

 

[Binx]

Thanks scotu, so then fox could theoretically do infinite jump canceled shines into the shield and break on every blocked shine?

 

[SCOTU]

except that it's escapable. There's a frame with no shield stun for each perfect itteration. this means that it can be spot dodged out of it. Also, everyone seems to be neglecting shield SDI. You can SDI to the left/right while in hitlag in your shield.

 

[SCOTU]

I've been thinking about this (tonight, i'm finally going to put my theories to the test in AR). But what i'm having trouble doing is finding a perfect lead in to it. I'll get back to you later tonight.

 

[Binx]

Awesome, and I didnt forget about the SDI, everyone ive talked to keeps disagreeing with me that it exists.

 

[SCOTU]

Awesome, and I didnt forget about the SDI, everyone ive talked to keeps disagreeing with me that it exists.

I'll have to make a vid. Or at least get screenshots. When i first mentioned it, i got semi-flamed for it "not existing". And i've also never heard of it from anyone else, so i thought i discovered it (guess not though if you've heard of it outside of the last few months). btw, what version do you have? it might be version dependant. I've got 1.1

 

[Pasqual]

Comparing some of Phanna's shield stun numbers and SDM's frame data, it looks like utilts and bairs (?) could work in theory, but that doesn't take into account shield stab and whatnot.

On the subject of SDI, isn't that the DI used by someone who's been freeze glitched by an ICs to move around very slightly? Or is that regular DI?