Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Laudandus]

His chain grab at low percent is 50-50, where he gets you on DI away from uthrow and DI in from dthrow. I'm not 100% on this but I'm pretty sure

 

[Sweet™]

I would run off the stage like a mad man and forward air his up B if he went straight up, or towards me at an angle, or I would use back air to hit him into the stage if he went more horizontally.

 

[darkatma]

Needles can always cover the sweetspot if you time it correctly. You could potentially run off fastfall early fair and it might reach (don't quote me on that). As long as you fair early enough you can still recover from the fastfall. Someone else mentioned turnaround grab ledge for invincibility, which might be good if he rides along the wall so you can invincible ledgehop nair to stagespike him/react if he techs.

 

[EddyBearr]

Needles can always cover the sweetspot if you time it correctly. You could potentially run off fastfall early fair and it might reach (don't quote me on that). As long as you fair early enough you can still recover from the fastfall. Someone else mentioned turnaround grab ledge for invincibility, which might be good if he rides along the wall so you can invincible ledgehop nair to stagespike him/react if he techs.

Fast-fall fair should not work in that situation, even with latest fair plus reversed up-B for maximum height, assuming you hit fox before he starts moving. I was in love with run-off fast-fall fair for a while, and that height is just a no-go. I've personally concluded that it's only good if the opponent is very high percent and just a little off from sweet-spot ledge-grab area.

One option is to nair trade, like Overtriforce did 60 times in this set: www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrJvRVj5LeI
AFAIK it should be the same in NTSC.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

Also, since the Fox was at zero percent a simple aerial trade may not be favorable, especially if he still has his jump. And in the picture the up-b was already started so it will probably be hard to get to the ledge faster then the up-b, since you aren't exactly close to the ledge.

 

[Sweet™]

I was watching a match today.

How safe is this backair that he did? I was kinda of surprised it didn't trade or anything.

 

[cisyphus]

I've seen lots of Sheiks do it so I'm sure it's pretty safe.

 

[Laudandus]

It's safe it works

 

[SonuvaBeach]

I was watching a match today.

How safe is this backair that he did? I was kinda of surprised it didn't trade or anything.

Taki missed the tech twice though which makes this questionable to me. If he hits the first tech, he likely ends up in a better position than sheik does - so you just have to understand that risk you're taking and surprise the opponent.

Still overalll OK because d-smash either would have been hard to hit, or wouldn't have. Needles would be difficult to time. Swag could have also got to the edge and did a rising nair that would have caught it - but also likely difficult to time due to him riding the wall.

 

[cisyphus]

^^These are good points, but I think the bair itself is okay. Had he teched, the fair would still have hit, and if he'd wall jump teched, that's put him at a perfect rising bair height. Of course, instead of the fair he probably coulda regrabbed ledge and covered with a rising nair since fox's distance from ledge is ambiguous enough that he probably would've just gone straight up.

But WD -> Bair actually covered most options. It would've hit a straight vertical FF and every one in between.

 

[Sweet™]

Today I learned. Thanks guys.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

^^These are good points, but I think the bair itself is okay. Had he teched, the fair would still have hit, and if he'd wall jump teched, that's put him at a perfect rising bair height. Of course, instead of the fair he probably coulda regrabbed ledge and covered with a rising nair since fox's distance from ledge is ambiguous enough that he probably would've just gone straight up.

But WD -> Bair actually covered most options. It would've hit a straight vertical FF and every one in between.

Agree to disagree my opinions are different from playing KJH so much who rarely misses his techs.
Walljump tech the first hit would have put him up really high above sheik, likely out of bair range. If not out of bair range though, the bair (strong or not) would not have had enough knockback to kill him (notice his % is super low). So you're both living and sheik either dies or hopes to beat him back to the ledge

If he techs the fair with a walljump a similar situation arises. The whole sequence was pretty much relying on no techs. Not my style

 

[EddyBearr]

I don't think he could have teched the bair. I'm pretty sure it didn't knock him down. The fair, I'm not sure of. I think he went into tumble but it's hard to tell.

Sometimes I go for late/weak bairs on Yoshi's to make them unable to tech.

 

[cisyphus]

I may be underestimating Fox's walljump height, yeah.

The fair definitely was techable though.

 

[tauKhan]

The fair definitely was techable though.

No it definitely wasn't. He didn't collide with the wall, the green flash and collision animation would have been visible in magnifying glass. Only moves that knock down can be teched.

 

[darkatma]

I was watching a match today.

How safe is this backair that he did? I was kinda of surprised it didn't trade or anything.

Watch closely the angle that Taki chose in this situation. He chooses something slightly lower in an attempt to ride the wall for tech opportunities. Had the angle been anywhere between sheik's legs as she slid off, the firefox would have hit sheik and the edgeguard would have failed.

The bair was too weak to send fox into tumble, so it was not techable. I'm not sure about the fair at the end, it looked ambiguous whether it sent into tumble or not. I wouldn't rely on this to get firefox every time, and I think in repeat situations firefox is likely to trade or win out against sheik's weak forward leg hitbox.

 

[tauKhan]

I'm not sure about the fair at the end, it looked ambiguous whether it sent into tumble

It was not, the collision would've shown and the fox would've bounced to right at least a little bit. Also I tested a bit in pal, there fair started knocking fox down at 38% (before hit). NTSC fox is heavier than pal fox, so probably a bit more is needed.

Edit: The green flash doesn't show in the magnifying glass, but the animation fox goes through looks different.

Also the correct way to edgeguard after that dsmash hit would've been turn -> wd -> grab edge -> drop ff dj bair upb regrab -> follow up or something similar, right?

 

[T0RN]

What is this wizardry at 4:40 with the two bairs? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBD8au4jQbg

 

[skaterbaj]

Foxes are starting to get faster. at least in my area. what are some other good techniques in neutral game/baiting against foxs besides empty hops and WD back>punish? is this MU even winnable on FD lol

 

[T0RN]

Foxes are starting to get faster. at least in my area. what are some other good techniques in neutral game/baiting against foxs besides empty hops and WD back>punish? is this MU even winnable on FD lol

Sheiks that I play as fox hardly ever use wavelanding and movement around the stage. Use that to your advantage.

 

[EddyBearr]

Foxes are starting to get faster. at least in my area. what are some other good techniques in neutral game/baiting against foxs besides empty hops and WD back>punish? is this MU even winnable on FD lol

Dash dancing, and extra-long-dash-dancing, work as decent baits.

I just beat (but then got beaten, so 1-1) a quite technical fox today in tourney on FD, so it's winnable.. but god I hate FD. Tech-chase and combo, is all I can say. You have to outplay them pretty hard.

What is this wizardry at 4:40 with the two bairs? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBD8au4jQbg

It's only 1 bair. He got caped.

 

[Sempai]

Just wanted to say, seeing all these posts from people who joined smashboards in 2013 and 2014.

Makes us old players so happy

 

[Phan7om]

When are some key times to use needles in the Sheik ditto?

 

[cisyphus]

SH needle grab (or any other relatively quick ground attack), edgeguarding, and whenever you can catch them with the full storm because 17% for free isn't bad. Circle camping on triangle platforms via can help maybe?

 

[SacaSuMoto]

Overtriforce vs KevinM Apex2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTP5MZfiYRE

The first match especially is how you beat mindlessly technical spacies. You bait them out to whiff an aerial and then start grabbing when they become scared and stay in their shield. Over also shows what to do in tech chase situations. Dash attk after you get some % on them and if you're late either shield and wait or crouch and wait to dsmash.

Once spacies and foxes become comfortable with the matchup, then they will not be falling for some DD baits and will not be simply running into your ftilts.
In these cases, missing and ftilt or grab can lead to 60% taken or death with foxes ability to combo and chase sheik.
So nowadays sheiks are abusing ledge invincibility, ledgedashes, platform movement, and shield drops to tack in % and evade fox. However, grabs are really what you want, what you really, really want.

How do you get grabs?
There are two main ways of getting grabs.
1) Grabbing them for messing up or for their lag.
You can't rely on this form of grabbing all the time, better players will not mess up their L-cancel to shine. You can make them whiff aerials and with DDing. It's amazing lol. You should be able to grab a waveshine through you, but nair-shine and doubleshine beat shield grab.. so don't count on it.
Sometimes if they're trying to be bold with their approach to you, you can catch them off guard with a single jab, the spaced jab should out range a shine irrc. They might get scared and will spotdodge, so you grab the spotdodge. Grabbing spotdodges is hard, but get comfortable with waiting for the animation to come out and give it a moment or two before you start the grab. However, if they CC the jab... then you're pretty much done LOL

2) Grabbing them when they're shielding.
This is where you might say that the whole game becomes just a series of interactions in and out of shield. or something like that..
First of all, you might be thinking "how can i even grab them while they're shielding? They can always spotdodge, grab, roll, jump, or wavedash away"
Well those would be the exact reasons why you can grab them while they're shielding, you can cover all those options. If they roll away, you chase them and you can probably get a clean grab or dash attack. If they wavedash back you can try to walk forward to ftilt them while they're still unable to do something from the wavedash. They shouldn't try to grab, you should always mind your spacing but if you feint them by dashing away and they grab..that's a free grab for you. If they jump, you ftilt or fair, this case is harder to pull off at times. Sheik will only be getting punished when the timings are usually too late late. If you keep whiffing ftilt or fair, even after they've rolled away.. you should be prepared to be on the defensive. If you grab right when they spotdodge, you will get shined or w.e the fox wants to do to you.
Now, it only becomes a matter of asking how long will they stay in their shield before they escape? If the answer is "too long/ long enough" then you can get a grab from them shielding.
But what does that mean, how do you know how much too long or long enough is? That is the hard question that every sheik must find and answer... the answer that determines how well they will place in the tournament. (lol)
The ways sheiks try to answer this question is by physically distorting the timings in which an opponent can escape by hitting an opponent's shield with a jab, fair, or an ftilt. As long as you don't whiff or you're not miss spaced you will be fine. Sheiks will then try to find the rhythm as to which their opponents like to escape and distorting these timing by hitting them right as they try to escape. Once all of these things are mixedup well by the sheik, then you find that the time in their shield starts to reach times of "too long" and "long enough" for you to get a grab. THEN YOU MUST ****ING PUNISH AND KILL THEM.

Once foxes start avoiding the ranges for you to be able to grab them, then it becomes way harder but DDing, CCing, needles, stuffing with f-tilt, and grabbing a whiff become more relevant. Also, if you get stuck in your shield too they're going to do the same thing to you to get grabs.

Kirbykaze vs Unknown522
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvfZxWiyDLo
This set is amazing.

 

[T0RN]

So I main fox, and I'm looking for a secondary main. I really want it to be sheik. Are there any tips for starting off with her?

 

[CrazyCupofJoe]

So I main fox, and I'm looking for a secondary main. I really want it to be sheik. Are there any tips for starting off with her?

After getting the basics like movement and recovery, learn grab follow ups as well as tilt follow ups depending on the character you are facing. Next I would say learn to tech chase the fast fallers into oblivion. Gimping as sheik will always benefit you when done correctly, so learning how to gimp with needles or bair/nair from ledge would be important. Also never forget about your needles.

 

[skaterbaj]

Thank sumoto. whats the proper way to DI shine?

 

[cisyphus]

Fox Shine depends on how the fox follows up the shine. Pay attention to how long their waveshines are in particular: if they do full-length waveshines, Smash DI in saves you whereas shorter waveshines (usually means the Fox isn't as technically proficient) can be DI'd out. Good Foxes will mix this up a bit to throw your DI off, though. It's tough. They also have all of their OOS options available so keep that in mind.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

For Fox:
You DI the waveshine out (smash DI and probably ASDI) to avoid the upsmash follow up, but the waveshine grab follow up is 100% guaranteed unless they mess up. So I usually just try to hard DI out, since I don't want to get upsmashed (which is not guaranteed if you do hard DI out). However, if they shine you and you two are very promiscuously close together you may want to try smash DIing in so you end up behind them and possibly throwing them off. You may want to buffer a roll by holding shield and left or right on the c-stick so you don't have to worry about messing up and getting punished for it. However, they can catch on to this pattern if you do it often and you will still end up in a bad position anyway. Just try to make sure you get the smash DI out and mixing things up as you get better at it.

For falco:
hard smash DI in or out.. the direction should minimize the amount of follow ups they can get.

 

[pagedMov]

So recently I just picked up Melee and decided to get involved in the competitive scene. By extension, I also started playing Sheik as my main, and I've had some questions on my mind.
1. What situations should I wavedash in? I hear it's a good spacing tool, but I've never really understood what they meant by that.
2. What should my mindset be when playing Sheik against the space animals? Usually I just get juggled into infinity by shines and I'm left clueless as to how to deal with it.
3. How the **** do I fight Jigglypuff

 

[EddyBearr]

So recently I just picked up Melee and decided to get involved in the competitive scene. By extension, I also started playing Sheik as my main, and I've had some questions on my mind.
1. What situations should I wavedash in? I hear it's a good spacing tool, but I've never really understood what they meant by that.
2. What should my mindset be when playing Sheik against the space animals? Usually I just get juggled into infinity by shines and I'm left clueless as to how to deal with it.
3. How the **** do I fight Jigglypuff

1. a. To grab the ledge for an edgeguard quickly
----b. To get back from the ledge (ledgedash)
----c. To change your position relative to your opponent while shielding (Wavedash out of shield)
------EX: Marth uses a forward smash on your shield while you are quite far away. You wavedash out of your shield towards them to forward tilt them, which you can't do by dashing or walking since the shield takes time to drop but not to jump out of.
------EX2: Falco uses an auto-cancel (lagless) backair on your shield up-close, and he's probably going to do it again. This is scary. Let's wavedash out of shield away from Falco to be out of back-air range.
----d. To stop Sheik's dash without having to skid.
------EX: I want to get closer to a camping fox, but I don't want to be so close that I'll be hit. I will dash towards them, then before I get too close, I will wavedash (in place, towards them, or backwards) to not be stuck in a skidding animation to get hit
----e. To navigate a platform quickly (wavelanding)
----f. To change Sheik's direction while dashing without a skid (improves "dash dance" game since it artificially lengthens her dash dance, since post-wavedash she can dash the other way)
----g. To bait moves and punish the opponent (great spacing tool)
------EX: A fox is going to nair me. I will wavedash backwards and they will miss their nair. I will then grab the fox and tech-chase them to oblivion.
----h. To be unpredictable in movement
------EX: The opponent keeps standing there. I will dash towards them and wavedash back a few times and then, instead of wavedashing back, I will dash-attack-cancel grab, so they will be taken by surprise.
----i. To quickly get slightly away from a knocked-down opponent to avoid a get-up attack or get-up grab, while still being close enough to f-tilt or jump-cancel grab. (great spacing tool, especially seen in fox tech chases).
2. a. Get them out of crouch cancel percent. Throw needles at them, get them with bairs, hit them with well-spaced forward airs. If you can somehow get a grab, then tech-chase them to increase their percent. If they are aggressive, shorthop nair out of shield will add some nice percent and usually reset things to neutral.
----b. Do not challenge them too hard and do not be too aggressive at low percents, or you will be destroyed. Do not f-tilt or dash-attack into a shield, you will always be punished unless the spacing is super perfect, and even then, you might still get punished. The correct response to an opponent who sits in shield is to grab them.
----c. When they are out of crouch-cancel percent or at least higher in percent, continue doing what was done before, but if you get the opportunity for a dash attack or forward tilt, then do it, and try to juggle them or knock them off the stage.
----d. If you get a chance to knock them off stage, do it. Always do it, as you can edgeguard or gimp them.
----e. When you get them off-stage, don't let them come back. Edgeguard them. Use bairs, needles, nairs, fairs, f-tilts into fairs if they go too high, or whatever else it takes to keep them off stage.
----f. Be good with your stage position, and stay on the ground if you can. Platforms are kind-of like the ground, and are good if diagonal from the opponent, but usually bad if above them unless good at shield-dropping. Being in the air too much means you'll eventually be caught in the air, and being caught in the air means you get "juggled to infinity"
----g. Sheik is a defensive character. Let them do the work, and punish their mistakes. Bait them if you can, space and zone them out. If you are being combo'd, it is important to DI well to get out of the combo. Generally speaking, DI fox away but mix-it-up at times, and Smash DI his up-airs. DI falco to the sides, and mix-it-up, until high percent; at high percents, DI'ing up and keep you safe from bair for quite a while.
----h. Sheik can be a beast on the ledge. Learn to master her ledge game, as it's a great way to quickly turn the tides on spacies. Perfect shino stalling, learn to poke from the ledge, learn to get back easily with ledgedash, learn to mix-it-up well, and generally have good ledge game. Watch any video with Mew2king's Sheik against a spacie to see how good ledge game can be.
3. a. Play keep away with bairs, fairs, needles, and tilts.
----b. Kill them with upair, or kill them off the side with forward air. Pay attention to ceilings and side blast-zone distances.
----c. Jigg will crouch almost everything you do, and go for a rest. Crouch-cancelled poorly spaced aerials or tilts will result in a rest. Dash attack is often a rest. Crouch creating missed grabs (Jiggs crouches too low) will result in rest. Don't get rested, so don't do anything unsafe.
----d. Jiggs will also up-tilt or up-air into rest. Di away from jiggs to prevent this. Down-throw will combo into rest if you DI into jiggs -- so DI away.

 

[Sempai]

TLDR for jiggs:

Bairs and needles
dont grab almost ever

 

[Rosy]

How viable in the match is sheiks:

run in fade away fair > jab> jab> d smash

Run in> fade away> waveland forward> f tilt

Run in d smash or hold u smash (when you're expecting them to spot doge from a grab or dash attack)

wd oos>dash>boost grab

I want to know which would be the best to do and how often they should be used.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

How viable in the match is sheiks:

run in fade away fair > jab> jab> d smash

Run in> fade away> waveland forward> f tilt

Run in d smash or hold u smash (when you're expecting them to spot doge from a grab or dash attack)

wd oos>dash>boost grab

I want to know which would be the best to do and how often they should be used.

Run in -> back flip fade away -> fair or landing(emptyhop)
Are good enough on their own. The extra jab jab dmash really depends on crap like.. opponents %, how close they are to you, if you're hitting their shield, what they like to do out of shield... so start with the first two steps. and build it from there. think about spacing and tricking your opponent.

The wavelanding forward or backwards is really tricky to use... because you can't do a move while youre actually wavelanding.. you have to wait for the animation to end in order for the ftilt to come out...so that's a long time when combined with the jumping and fading away.
backwards is probably more useful than forwards, forwards is probably more useful when you're dropping from a platform.

wd oos -> dash -> boost grab
it's pretty good, but JC grab might be better. JC grab doesn't put sheik's body out there as much, so you can grab spacie if they mess up a shine after you get out, since you'll be spaced or something like that. boostgrab is better if the opponent is really far away or right on top of you as your boosting, because it has a bigger grab box.

if you wd oos, the opponent should be recognizing to be on the defensive ASAP so you probably won't be getting these raw grabs as often as you'd like. wavedash oos -> ftilt is good for the reason that you can be spaced for it right away.

run in -> crouch -> dsmash
is really good, you don't have to hold it just crouch until you see the spotdodge and then do it. that way you can also CC if you get him by a jab.

Mixing up your options, even when one option may seem worse, will make all your decisions better in the long run. Sometimes you gotta play the player, other times you gotta play the matchup.

 

[Rosy]

Run in -> back flip fade away -> fair or landing(emptyhop)
Are good enough on their own. The extra jab jab dmash really depends on crap like.. opponents %, how close they are to you, if you're hitting their shield, what they like to do out of shield... so start with the first two steps. and build it from there. think about spacing and tricking your opponent.

The wavelanding forward or backwards is really tricky to use... because you can't do a move while youre actually wavelanding.. you have to wait for the animation to end in order for the ftilt to come out...so that's a long time when combined with the jumping and fading away.
backwards is probably more useful than forwards, forwards is probably more useful when you're dropping from a platform.

wd oos -> dash -> boost grab
it's pretty good, but JC grab might be better. JC grab doesn't put sheik's body out there as much, so you can grab spacie if they mess up a shine after you get out, since you'll be spaced or something like that. boostgrab is better if the opponent is really far away or right on top of you as your boosting, because it has a bigger grab box.

if you wd oos, the opponent should be recognizing to be on the defensive ASAP so you probably won't be getting these raw grabs as often as you'd like. wavedash oos -> ftilt is good for the reason that you can be spaced for it right away.

run in -> crouch -> dsmash
is really good, you don't have to hold it just crouch until you see the spotdodge and then do it. that way you can also CC if you get him by a jab.

Mixing up your options, even when one option may seem worse, will make all your decisions better in the long run. Sometimes you gotta play the player, other times you gotta play the matchup.

Ya I think for this, I am mostly thinking of these different options when playing a fox.

as for other matchups, I would do other things instead.

 

[CrazyCupofJoe]

2. a. Get them out of crouch cancel percent. Throw needles at them, get them with bairs, hit them with well-spaced forward airs. If you can somehow get a grab, then tech-chase them to increase their percent. If they are aggressive, shorthop nair out of shield will add some nice percent and usually reset things to neutral..

When are they out of CC %? I remember hearing that F-tilt will knock down around 26% but that seems way to early. Also, for the Jiggs matchup, I don't get to play it a lot but one of my practice partners has a jiggs that he will randomly pull out for fun. He gets me with Dair into rest a lot, is it guaranteed if I dont SDI out?

 

[skaterbaj]

Flash vs es phat On FD back in November (copied for FD match)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-...t-cl=84411374&feature=player_detailpage#t=340

Really Good Match Imo with solid commentary. this grab setup he did here at 0% was nice. is it true?(soft bair->up tilt->grab)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-...t-cl=84411374&feature=player_detailpage#t=489

 

[beanwolf]

Wow the sheik boards are far more active than I thought, I should join in discussion more often.

When are they out of CC %? I remember hearing that F-tilt will knock down around 26% but that seems way to early. Also, for the Jiggs matchup, I don't get to play it a lot but one of my practice partners has a jiggs that he will randomly pull out for fun. He gets me with Dair into rest a lot, is it guaranteed if I dont SDI out?

IIRC ftilt knocks Fox down at ~24% to 27% if he is NOT crouch cancelling, otherwise it's a lot higher. You're better off initiating tech chase with a grab which I'm sure everyone else said.

I'm fairly confident you can nearly always SDI out of Dair-->Rest. Hbox tried to cheese me with it in pools at FPV and failed every time

 

[CrazyCupofJoe]

I'm fairly confident you can nearly always SDI out of Dair-->Rest. Hbox tried to cheese me with it in pools at FPV and failed every time

If you don't SDI is it guaranteed? Or atleast a lot easier?