SUNG666
Smash Ace
^Love the charmander ava
Your play surprised me from what I watched on stream, ya have some good stuff
Your play surprised me from what I watched on stream, ya have some good stuff
-
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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA
- Thread starter KirbyKaze
- Start date
Uggggh. Moogle. You're so good against Peach. :l
Hey, can someone help me to better understand how sheik should utilize the platforms when trying to get advantageous positioning?
I never know when to use platforms in many MU's (except for obvious follow-ups). Most trouble comes with Marth and Falco on platforms. Any suggestions are great.
I never know when to use platforms in many MU's (except for obvious follow-ups). Most trouble comes with Marth and Falco on platforms. Any suggestions are great.
Are you below them, or on the platform with them?
Just in general... Maybe I didn't ask my question quote correctly....
My problem is just I don't use platforms very much to create space and I lost a lot of mobility... When I try to use platforms to create spacing, it always seems to be at the wrong time and I get punished or just don't gain an upper hand...
My problem is just I don't use platforms very much to create space and I lost a lot of mobility... When I try to use platforms to create spacing, it always seems to be at the wrong time and I get punished or just don't gain an upper hand...
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Sheik's stronger side-to-side than she is above people. Because f-tilt, bair, fair, grab, and dash attack all hit in the side area. So that may be part of it.
In that case, is there ever good reason to use upper platforms when the opponent (mostly marth/falco/ c. falcon) is on the same level as me? Or should I just stay on the same level and maintain distance until I see an opening?
Sorry if this questions are 'noob' :$ just really want to get better.
Sorry if this questions are 'noob' :$ just really want to get better.
You only take to platforms when you want to threaten fast fall f-airs or needle traps. It's essentially a way for you to stay at a short hop level and descend anytime you like. You're at a large disadvantage if any of the characters get under you while you're on a platform so avoid letting that happen.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Platforms are complex and add a lot to a situation. To name a few ways...
...They can act like pivots in that they give a place where the flow of combat can shift heavily or even change direction.
...They add a dead zone for descending air attacks, air-dodges (not the free-fall), some projectiles, and other things; the platform catches these actions and forces people doing them to land on the platform, which makes going around ground-control walls less effective.
...They allow you to be on a different plane than your opponent without immediately committing you to a fall trajectory.
...They can act like pivots in that they give a place where the flow of combat can shift heavily or even change direction.
...They add a dead zone for descending air attacks, air-dodges (not the free-fall), some projectiles, and other things; the platform catches these actions and forces people doing them to land on the platform, which makes going around ground-control walls less effective.
...They allow you to be on a different plane than your opponent without immediately committing you to a fall trajectory.
darkatma
Smash Hero
There is actually, and it was made by strongbad a year ago. You can find it in KK's fox guide http://smashboards.com/threads/kirb...ned-indefinitely.313447/page-11#post-14905478
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
A good exercise is to just generally think about where the opponent wants you to be against them. This may sound a little vague, but if you're unsure about what a situation gives Sheik, it can be good to try to think about it from your opponent's perspective. What can they do about it? Does it bring them closer to their goal, whatever that may be.
Falcon for instance wants to grab Sheik because it pops her up for combos. He wants to stomp her because it pops her up for combos. So there's a real theme about getting her into the air at a decent altitude so he can kill her with up air chains. So, since platforms are essentially raised ground, does it make sense for you to want to spend a lot of time up on them?
darkatma
Smash Hero
Meow......
I'm not sure how to handle Falcon dash dance. Here's a few axamples of the kind of situation I mean:
Here I try to f-tilt then d-tilt pre-emptively and get punished.
Here Android f-tilts pre-emptively and gets punished.
Here M2K SH nairs to beat approaches but get's baited.
I feel defending with tilts and sh-nair pre-emptively like that gives falcon too much chances for heavy punishes. Then again I don't know how I feel about counter camping with bairs because you kind of have to retreat the SH to not let him get under you before you bair, which gives him the stage space he likes. Boost grabbing in to his dash dance is powerful but super unreliable.
How should I play vs. that kind of dash dance? Reposition (and where) or just try to guess or is there ways to make it possible to react instead of pre-emptive stuff. I've read how crouching limits falcons offensive game because he kind of loses his nair and uair but I've never really seen this strategy in videos. If there's some good examples of that, I'd love to see.
E: Oh and also can someone explain what exactly "reaction windows" mean (regarding melee obv). I'm not that awesome with English so I'm not a 100% sure if I get it right. So I'm asking to be sure.
Here I try to f-tilt then d-tilt pre-emptively and get punished.
Here Android f-tilts pre-emptively and gets punished.
Here M2K SH nairs to beat approaches but get's baited.
I feel defending with tilts and sh-nair pre-emptively like that gives falcon too much chances for heavy punishes. Then again I don't know how I feel about counter camping with bairs because you kind of have to retreat the SH to not let him get under you before you bair, which gives him the stage space he likes. Boost grabbing in to his dash dance is powerful but super unreliable.
How should I play vs. that kind of dash dance? Reposition (and where) or just try to guess or is there ways to make it possible to react instead of pre-emptive stuff. I've read how crouching limits falcons offensive game because he kind of loses his nair and uair but I've never really seen this strategy in videos. If there's some good examples of that, I'd love to see.
E: Oh and also can someone explain what exactly "reaction windows" mean (regarding melee obv). I'm not that awesome with English so I'm not a 100% sure if I get it right. So I'm asking to be sure.
On my phone so I can't type much.
Needles disrupts their dash dance. See how they react.
Needles disrupts their dash dance. See how they react.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Vs Falcon
You want to get close to him so you can SH fair and bair him
When you're setting this sort of position up, you want to SH as he's dashing away or made a similar commitment (i.e. won't dash SH knee/uair you out of nowhere for the stock)
Shoot single needle / do needle stores vs heavy dash dancers to disrupt their rhythm. Sparingly ideally. You want to break up his movement and force him to focus on regaining his footing.
Beyond that, to close the space you mostly just walk forward and use your SH to zone him / bait out bad approaches at mid range and then to pressure him once you're inside (as we stated earlier). Walk crouch, dash crouch, and dash shield can all be really effective vs his flyby aerials for protection. You want really good WD OOS, SH OOS, and nair OOS timing in this matchup so you can shield-punish him for panic attacks in close range.
You want to be the one calling the shots in this one and you want to use your faster, better moves to push him out of position as much as possible. Your quality normals, dash attack, and huge grab are a big part of why your game following a movement lead in or aerial is overall way more cohesive than his and more effective. Play to that.
Standing on the ground the whole game so he can dash dance grab your f-tilt seems like a stupid strategy and easy way to lose.
You want to get close to him so you can SH fair and bair him
When you're setting this sort of position up, you want to SH as he's dashing away or made a similar commitment (i.e. won't dash SH knee/uair you out of nowhere for the stock)
Shoot single needle / do needle stores vs heavy dash dancers to disrupt their rhythm. Sparingly ideally. You want to break up his movement and force him to focus on regaining his footing.
Beyond that, to close the space you mostly just walk forward and use your SH to zone him / bait out bad approaches at mid range and then to pressure him once you're inside (as we stated earlier). Walk crouch, dash crouch, and dash shield can all be really effective vs his flyby aerials for protection. You want really good WD OOS, SH OOS, and nair OOS timing in this matchup so you can shield-punish him for panic attacks in close range.
You want to be the one calling the shots in this one and you want to use your faster, better moves to push him out of position as much as possible. Your quality normals, dash attack, and huge grab are a big part of why your game following a movement lead in or aerial is overall way more cohesive than his and more effective. Play to that.
Standing on the ground the whole game so he can dash dance grab your f-tilt seems like a stupid strategy and easy way to lose.
Nair comes out faster and is harder to punish so it's a better option unless you can react to a missed l-cancel or whiffed grab or something. Obviously you get more off of a grab in 90% of situations but it takes longer to come out, stays out for 2 frames and then leaves you vulnerable for a week.
Personally I find spamming grab out of shield is one of the easiest things to punish, especially since it's really noticeable when people start doing it–as any character, not just sheik. Try to break the habit if just practicing hitting different buttons when you're in shield if nothing else, get that muscle memory adjusted.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Nair moves you, hits higher, hits around you, hits behind you, hits a frame faster
Grab does 27836829319 damage
edit:
I'm shamelessly stealing Cactuar's wordings
Nair OOS is an interrupt
Shield grab punishes people for being bad in your face
Now that I've stolen Charles's phrasings, I am unstoppable mwahahaha
Grab does 27836829319 damage
edit:
I'm shamelessly stealing Cactuar's wordings
Nair OOS is an interrupt
Shield grab punishes people for being bad in your face
Now that I've stolen Charles's phrasings, I am unstoppable mwahahaha
I'm actually kind of upset with the lack of Sheiks that use Transform > Bair vs. a Jiggs at 60ish percent that missed a rest.
hey shiek mains. Ive played competitively for a while but ive never touched sheik, and im thinking about picking her up. I tried using her a bit in casuals but ive got no idea what im doing with her. Ive always been a Marth main. Essentially, im really wondering.....what do I do when an opponent is at low percents? (fast fallers)....... like....how do I rack damage on fast fallers? I guess ive been kinda spoiled with Marth CGs and utilt through plats, but yeah. Do I just kinda nickle and dime them until theyre above X percent? Or is there something sheik can do to get guaranteed damage?
It feels like if I try to go for shffled aerials I get punished.......unless I do like....a spaced raising fair/bair then drift backwards. Shes got to have something better than this on spacies / falcon. Halp?
Edit:
After watching some Amsah videos, it seems apparent that Sheik is kinda of required to play the tech chase / poke / nickle and dime game until 50%+.
Is this right?
It feels like if I try to go for shffled aerials I get punished.......unless I do like....a spaced raising fair/bair then drift backwards. Shes got to have something better than this on spacies / falcon. Halp?
Edit:
After watching some Amsah videos, it seems apparent that Sheik is kinda of required to play the tech chase / poke / nickle and dime game until 50%+.
Is this right?
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
That's a good question above.
But I'm considering switching from Fox to Sheik (or at least playing Sheik in a serious capacity again) and I'm really wondering how to approach neutral vs Falco. She's so immobile compared to the other characters I've had stints with (Marth, Falco) so the MU feels very foreign to me. I feel like she doesn't really have the tools to aggressively open up Falco or dictate the flow of neutral, less so than a typical character vs Falco.
If someone would inform me on "how to move" in the MU vs Falco that'd be nice. How do you open up Falco? How do you deal with lasers as Sheik? How do you go from 0% when a grab isn't presenting itself?
But I'm considering switching from Fox to Sheik (or at least playing Sheik in a serious capacity again) and I'm really wondering how to approach neutral vs Falco. She's so immobile compared to the other characters I've had stints with (Marth, Falco) so the MU feels very foreign to me. I feel like she doesn't really have the tools to aggressively open up Falco or dictate the flow of neutral, less so than a typical character vs Falco.
If someone would inform me on "how to move" in the MU vs Falco that'd be nice. How do you open up Falco? How do you deal with lasers as Sheik? How do you go from 0% when a grab isn't presenting itself?
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I like to mix up crouch PSing high lasers, and then when they shoot low lasers, you can SH over them and take lots of stage. Platforms are really good to get into the range where your SH would be effective.
At 0%, it is either grab or chip damage/not-legit combos, unless they're in a bad spot. Usually I try to do things like space aerials then grab their response. Such as I Bair them, then they roll away and I chase them and grab, things like that.
I think the hardest thing to learn when you're picking up Shiek is how to manage low % spacies. Their CC is so stupid.
At 0%, it is either grab or chip damage/not-legit combos, unless they're in a bad spot. Usually I try to do things like space aerials then grab their response. Such as I Bair them, then they roll away and I chase them and grab, things like that.
I think the hardest thing to learn when you're picking up Shiek is how to manage low % spacies. Their CC is so stupid.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
dammit you shouldn't have responded yet purpletuce, I made this
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
My advice didn't have enough sass to be legit though, so KK is still required.
Also, my Shiek is pretty rough, so KK would have more solid advice too. I just said what I do, which might not be optimal.
Also, my Shiek is pretty rough, so KK would have more solid advice too. I just said what I do, which might not be optimal.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Same startup as turnaround needle (smash the direction you want to face, reset joystick to neutral, press B), but you hold the B button, then hit R/L (Z probably works too, and might be better because it won't tech trap you).
virtuososteve
Smash Apprentice
Last night I was playing against Taj, his Fox, Falco, Marth, Samus and Falcon. He was teaching me to use my shield effectively and to make me practice my OoS game. Making me because I would get destroyed if I didnt do it. Ive learned that having good fluid movement in and out of shield is key with sheik, with any character. My advice against any spacie is to make sure your movement/WD Oos and N-air OoS is golden. It'ls helped me out a lot
Tell me how to beat a Falco who f-smashes, jab > smashes, and rolls a lot. I'm bad VS unorthodox playstyles because all the falcos I play are tecnical and use the more standard falco stuff.
Here's a video of this Falco player playing (vs fox in this video but you'll see his playstyle pretty well from this..)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT5pnHju9ds
Here's a video of this Falco player playing (vs fox in this video but you'll see his playstyle pretty well from this..)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT5pnHju9ds
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Fsmash is powerful but extremely punishable. It also can't be used to hit people on reaction.
Just bait it out and kill him for doing it. That's how you play people like that.
Just bait it out and kill him for doing it. That's how you play people like that.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
No vs Falco discussion?
I don't like asking a lot but the Sheik boards are esp dead
SacaSuMoto
Smash Journeyman
How does one gimp fox at low percents with back throw/ forward throw??
I can't always get the needle off stage gimp, jump fair or the fair doesn't do enough knockback to kill
should i just be grabbing the ledge, back air. then when they fire fox back hope that i read it correctly to punish to edgeguard?
ice vs baxon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcs-DgkNvJ8
kk vs westballz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ey7wv-71Zw
the main idea of both of their gameplays at low percents is to disrupt whatever the falco is trying to do to get some percentage off or gimps and at higher percentages your punishes are harder with dash attack, tilt, and fair. You want to be respecting the falco's ccing, his spacing and don't overcommit yourself too early.
the ice approach is to disrupt falco's lasers with needles or PSing to create openings on falco
the kk appraoch is to *** up falco's shield pressure with out of shield options like wavedash back to tilt,grab, needles or nair.
both of these can lead falco to over-commit and you punish the crap out of that, especially when they're at higher percentages when your moves won't feel like you're hitting a plastic bag in the air. some of these examples are falco nairing you, just runback or wavedash back grab. or falco doing high lasers which you can dash attack under. TRY TO FIGURE OUT FALCO'S LASER SHOOTING PATTERN/TENDENCIES (when they runback laser, run forward laser and then what they like to do out of laser so that they won't be as hard to deal with especially when they laser near you, runback to bait your attempt to punish their ****)
at low percents you don't want to be using too many arials or ftilts because of crouch cancelling to dtilt or fsmash or shine or something by falco. in the match upyou're going to get comboed but just use that time to practice your DIing out of combos. At the same time, falco's shine doesn't have that much range so you can punish that if it doesn't hit you with your limbs.
if i have charged needles and get a grab dthrow, sometimes i like to do the equivalent of samus charge shot to cover the roll away but with needles to get some free %$%$%
be aware that these are falco's hitboxes on bair and uptilt so some openings you think are there are actually not.
edit: dealing with fox in general is a lot harder
edit:edit: follow your heart
I can't always get the needle off stage gimp, jump fair or the fair doesn't do enough knockback to kill
should i just be grabbing the ledge, back air. then when they fire fox back hope that i read it correctly to punish to edgeguard?
also vs falco
ice vs baxon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcs-DgkNvJ8
kk vs westballz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ey7wv-71Zw
the main idea of both of their gameplays at low percents is to disrupt whatever the falco is trying to do to get some percentage off or gimps and at higher percentages your punishes are harder with dash attack, tilt, and fair. You want to be respecting the falco's ccing, his spacing and don't overcommit yourself too early.
the ice approach is to disrupt falco's lasers with needles or PSing to create openings on falco
the kk appraoch is to *** up falco's shield pressure with out of shield options like wavedash back to tilt,grab, needles or nair.
both of these can lead falco to over-commit and you punish the crap out of that, especially when they're at higher percentages when your moves won't feel like you're hitting a plastic bag in the air. some of these examples are falco nairing you, just runback or wavedash back grab. or falco doing high lasers which you can dash attack under. TRY TO FIGURE OUT FALCO'S LASER SHOOTING PATTERN/TENDENCIES (when they runback laser, run forward laser and then what they like to do out of laser so that they won't be as hard to deal with especially when they laser near you, runback to bait your attempt to punish their ****)
at low percents you don't want to be using too many arials or ftilts because of crouch cancelling to dtilt or fsmash or shine or something by falco. in the match upyou're going to get comboed but just use that time to practice your DIing out of combos. At the same time, falco's shine doesn't have that much range so you can punish that if it doesn't hit you with your limbs.
if i have charged needles and get a grab dthrow, sometimes i like to do the equivalent of samus charge shot to cover the roll away but with needles to get some free %$%$%
be aware that these are falco's hitboxes on bair and uptilt so some openings you think are there are actually not.
edit: dealing with fox in general is a lot harder
edit:edit: follow your heart
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
You want to stop Falco from dictating the match. You want to be the aggressor and use your huge attacks, vertical > horizontal movements (like angled SHs and WLs off side plats) to move around his SH attacks & SHLs. The shield options and being quick with them forces him to respect the space he needs to come in safely. This means he's fighting to be a certain proximity from you either by retreating to draw me into it or by pressing himself to breach the gap of safety. Once I recognize whether he's doing the former or the latter I decide what I'm gonna do.
If he runs away I either...
Camp needles back to disrupt him and try to get him to do something else...
Try to corner him at the edge and pressure him...
Sneak a dash attack under a bad laser...
Lots of dash in, dash SH away and that kind of dynamic pressure or the opposite if I can out-camp them.
If he attacks or tries to get into an approaching distance...
Dash attack a bad laser...
Grab a bad laser...
Walk/WD to keep myself at a spacing I can bair everything during a SH...
Dash shield then SH/WD back if he comes in otherwise just exit shield in place and continue combat...
Standing needle vs their laser in place and then f-tilt if they seem like they want to rush in / dash attack if it feels like they have committed to having the laser covering them...
I prefer shield and OOS to powershield because I feel it allows me more time and opportunities to scout the opponent's tendencies and feel them out. And I'm not trying to disrupt them in such an obvious and deliberate way. I feel Ice gets tomahawked a lot vs Falcos.
edit:
Someone asked what the concept behind a reaction window is.
It's exactly what it sounds like. It's a period of time where you have positioned yourself to be able to observe the foe's actions and deny certain options by reactively attacking or moving.
I'll give you an example during a tech chase...
Sheik d-throws Falco at 40% and he non-techs near the edge of the level but doesn't fall off. Sheik immediately SHs in place, facing him, to create a reaction window where she can cover his options by simply picking counters she's made available by SHing.
This is because if he:
1) Continues to lay there ---- she can slap him or falling needle reset
2) Rolls towards the edge ---- she can fair depending on how much of the roll it cuts off
3) Rolls through her ---- she can bair him
4) Wake up attacks ---- she can fast fall shield in response to it and u-smash OOS / shield grab
In combat, the idea is generally that you're getting a position where you have a bunch of important, fast, variable options on hand and some of them can be used to stop their approach options on reaction. Usually this just means attacking if they are crossing a certain distance threshold or making a certain level of commitment (you see them commit to the attack in the air, for instance) or maintaining a minimal space between you too very stubbornly.
You're probably wondering why do this crap. Well, Sheik as a character is not like Fox or Marth in that she is constantly moving and influencing a huge space around her with her dash's reach. Her reach is based more on her rather shorter movements and the length of her actual attacks in tandem. What this does is create a character who can control the space around her very effectively and cohesively but only within a restrictive proximity. So because her attacks are fast and her WD / SH back don't move her much, the idea is that you are using those movements to create positions where you can reactively attack their approaches when they commit to them within a certain window (WD has startup, jump has landing lag, etc). The idea is that you're exerting a certain pressure upon them by not allowing them to move into your space, which can mean a variety of things depending on the situation.
The idea of working with a reactionary playstyle versus a planned defense arrangement is that you're getting some benefits. Namely you don't commit as much to attacks and whiff less. You're less vulnerable to people simply waiting you out because if something doesn't cue for your attack, you simply WL or needle or reposition or whatever and haven't left yourself open the way you might if your defense dance was gonna have you l-cancel a bair into turn around f-tilt into SH back rising fair at that moment to protect against... certain approaches the opponent might try in that instance.
If he runs away I either...
Camp needles back to disrupt him and try to get him to do something else...
Try to corner him at the edge and pressure him...
Sneak a dash attack under a bad laser...
Lots of dash in, dash SH away and that kind of dynamic pressure or the opposite if I can out-camp them.
If he attacks or tries to get into an approaching distance...
Dash attack a bad laser...
Grab a bad laser...
Walk/WD to keep myself at a spacing I can bair everything during a SH...
Dash shield then SH/WD back if he comes in otherwise just exit shield in place and continue combat...
Standing needle vs their laser in place and then f-tilt if they seem like they want to rush in / dash attack if it feels like they have committed to having the laser covering them...
I prefer shield and OOS to powershield because I feel it allows me more time and opportunities to scout the opponent's tendencies and feel them out. And I'm not trying to disrupt them in such an obvious and deliberate way. I feel Ice gets tomahawked a lot vs Falcos.
edit:
Someone asked what the concept behind a reaction window is.
It's exactly what it sounds like. It's a period of time where you have positioned yourself to be able to observe the foe's actions and deny certain options by reactively attacking or moving.
I'll give you an example during a tech chase...
Sheik d-throws Falco at 40% and he non-techs near the edge of the level but doesn't fall off. Sheik immediately SHs in place, facing him, to create a reaction window where she can cover his options by simply picking counters she's made available by SHing.
This is because if he:
1) Continues to lay there ---- she can slap him or falling needle reset
2) Rolls towards the edge ---- she can fair depending on how much of the roll it cuts off
3) Rolls through her ---- she can bair him
4) Wake up attacks ---- she can fast fall shield in response to it and u-smash OOS / shield grab
In combat, the idea is generally that you're getting a position where you have a bunch of important, fast, variable options on hand and some of them can be used to stop their approach options on reaction. Usually this just means attacking if they are crossing a certain distance threshold or making a certain level of commitment (you see them commit to the attack in the air, for instance) or maintaining a minimal space between you too very stubbornly.
You're probably wondering why do this crap. Well, Sheik as a character is not like Fox or Marth in that she is constantly moving and influencing a huge space around her with her dash's reach. Her reach is based more on her rather shorter movements and the length of her actual attacks in tandem. What this does is create a character who can control the space around her very effectively and cohesively but only within a restrictive proximity. So because her attacks are fast and her WD / SH back don't move her much, the idea is that you are using those movements to create positions where you can reactively attack their approaches when they commit to them within a certain window (WD has startup, jump has landing lag, etc). The idea is that you're exerting a certain pressure upon them by not allowing them to move into your space, which can mean a variety of things depending on the situation.
The idea of working with a reactionary playstyle versus a planned defense arrangement is that you're getting some benefits. Namely you don't commit as much to attacks and whiff less. You're less vulnerable to people simply waiting you out because if something doesn't cue for your attack, you simply WL or needle or reposition or whatever and haven't left yourself open the way you might if your defense dance was gonna have you l-cancel a bair into turn around f-tilt into SH back rising fair at that moment to protect against... certain approaches the opponent might try in that instance.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Wow that was very specific and lot to digest. I'll read over it a few times and try to internalize that.
I wish I was experienced enough to make this into a conversation and dissect what you're saying and a practical and high level but I'll see where these words take me for now.
I wish I was experienced enough to make this into a conversation and dissect what you're saying and a practical and high level but I'll see where these words take me for now.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If anything doesn't make sense or needs clarification, feel free to point it out and I'll do my best to fix that.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Really glad KK came back to answer the Falco question, I get nervous when nobody comes in to validate/invalidate my advice.