Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Nihonjin]

lol, i'm a big amsah fan, but the matchup ain't that bad.

It's worse.

After trying for years to beat peach with using falco, sheik is a lot easier. if you think sheik gets comboed, try using falco on a really good peach.

Falco's easier than Sheik.

In NTSC it would be different. There you can at least punish any mistakes Peach makes, with grab or uair or whatever. I hope you will still try to use Sheik against Armada, Amsah. Just imagine your gayest type of Sheik ever, then play even gayer.

It's not much different, in NTSC he just avoids getting grabbed at all costs. Unlike it PAL it's not completely impossible, but it's still horribly in Peach's favor.

 

[Drephen]

yo nihonjin man up and stick with your character

sheik has countered peach for foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrr now nothing has changed

im ready to beat some armada *** and take his money....or euros....or whatever

 

[Cia]

Sheik vs Peach.. lol.

I **** it as Sheik

I **** it as Peach

I think we can agree that I just ****.

 

[unknown522]

I watched Amsah play against Armada this weekend. Amsah mostly used Fox, but I can agree that there's not much you can do against Armada's Peach with Sheik. After Armada got Amsah's sheik offstage with a downsmash or aerial, there was no way Amsah could get back.

sheik gets screwed over by every character like that. It's 1 of her only 2 weaknesses.

Even if he grabbed the ledge, Armada was just covering all options.

WD onto the stage from the ledge. It's completely safe and if Armada tries to attack, then you get a free hit.

It's not much different, in NTSC he just avoids getting grabbed at all costs. Unlike it PAL it's not completely impossible, but it's still horribly in Peach's favor.

d-throw is more than half the matchup in NTSC.

 

[Nihonjin]

yo nihonjin man up and stick with your character

I've done that for 4 years. But this time..Hell no. Maybe in NTSC I'll consider it, but in PAL? Pff..

Sheik has countered peach for foreverrrrrrrrrrrrrr now nothing has changed

Pff..ignorant. :embarrass

im ready to beat some armada *** and take his money....or euros....or whatever

If you beat him in a MM I'll give you $10. (I'd give you more but I'm poor :embarrass)

sheik gets screwed over by every character like that. It's 1 of her only 2 weaknesses.

No, she doesn't. I've never felt helpless recovering against any character except Peach.

WD onto the stage from the ledge. It's completely safe and if Armada tries to attack, then you get a free hit.

No, you don't. You either:

- Get hit
- Shield and get knocked off stage
- Shield and get shield stabbed
- Shield until it explodes
- Shield and try to grab but get nair'd/dsmashed
- Shield and wavedash back onto the ledge (which resets the whole thing)

d-throw is more than half the matchup in NTSC.

Which is why PAL is impossible and NTSC is hard.

Getting a grab in NTSC is hard.
Getting a grab in PAL is useless.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

i may get flamed for this but... why are we talking about the PAL match up werent we originally talking about NTSC. I think most of the sheiks in here play the NTSC version, and it must be an entirely different ballpark if the pall matchup is ~5-95

so PAL excluded if peach comes floating at you whats your best option spaced fairs?

 

[unknown522]

No, she doesn't. I've never felt helpless recovering against any character except Peach.

Many characters can b-air her back off the stage until she dies. A lot of characters can do other things, but there's so many to list.

No, you don't. You either:

- Get hit
- Shield and get knocked off stage
- Shield and get shield stabbed
- Shield until it explodes
- Shield and try to grab but get nair'd/dsmashed
- Shield and wavedash back onto the ledge (which resets the whole thing)

but you have complete invincibility when you do a ledge WD and still have enough time to attack/move. You will go through his move....you are invincible.

You can't tell me you didn't know that.....

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Many characters can b-air her back off the stage until she dies. A lot of characters can do other things, but there's so many to list.

but you have complete invincibility when you do a ledge WD and still have enough time to attack/move. You will go through his move....you are invincible.

You can't tell me you didn't know that.....

I thought you only had a few frames of invincibility? Like 5? How long does any tilt or attack take to come out (aerial w/ jump or tilt)? What can sheik do to stop peach from nairing or cc dsmashing her move?

 

[unknown522]

sheik's d-smash comes out frame 5.

but again, you can avoid the move / roll / jump.

mix it up, if you really have to (but you don't....it's sheik).

 

[SonuvaBeach]

But that is without WD onto ledge factored in.

 

[SPAWN]

Peach can grab the edge just by floating onto it when you shino stall. It's pretty tough timing I think but when you're at the pro level it's probably able to be done consistantly. I wanna start incorporating the gay thing m2k does where he fairs randomly in between shino stalls as a mixup also.

 

[unknown522]

But that is without WD onto ledge factored in.

I dunno how many, but it's definitely more than 5.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

I wanna start incorporating the gay thing m2k does where he fairs randomly in between shino stalls as a mixup also.

Yeah, it is a great way to keep them from trying to take the edge as your are still invincible during the start of the fair. It isn't too hard either once you've been fairing and regrabbing the edge as well as shino stalling.

I dunno how many, but it's definitely more than 5.

Yeah, rethinking it now and it definitely is. Since she is invincible for the start of aerials off the edge, and how many do they take to come out?

Armada/peach wouldn't come close enough to the edge where you can get a hit from a fair, but would stay away enough that if you try to WD on he'll either nair or d-smash you. I'm not sure, frame data will definitely help. But if Armada does get hit by a dsmash one time, I doubt he would again.

 

[Plairnkk]

Sheik vs Peach.. lol.

I **** it as Sheik

I **** it as Peach

I think we can agree that I just ****.

orly do u now? XD

 

[unknown522]

all I know is that there's enough invincibility to do a WD onto the stage and still be able to do an action afterwards.

It's probably around 20 frames of invincibility. I'm sorry I can't be or more help.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

for some reason i've always thought it was 16 frames.

I haven't read the number in years, but thats always what was stuck in my head.

edit- well, 16 frames is fox's firefox regrab frame. sheik gets invincibility on her upb at frame 18, so it must be higher than that. 20 is probably the correct number.

 

[DJRome]

i asked kk for how far into move options from ledgedash invincibility lasts, but from my tests, you really don't have much time to do anything, and i don't think any hitboxes can come out during your i-frames. if i recall, waveland is min 12 frames

 

[gm jack]

i may get flamed for this but... why are we talking about the PAL match up werent we originally talking about NTSC. I think most of the sheiks in here play the NTSC version, and it must be an entirely different ballpark if the pall matchup is ~5-95

so PAL excluded if peach comes floating at you whats your best option spaced fairs?

Nah, I think I started it asking for approaches and I'm in PAL. Played it again today and he is right. Sheik can't win in a striking contest, her projectiles are not nearly as useful as normal and her grab game is useless against Peach in PAL.

Still, if you can get a percent lead at the start of the match and ledge stall the rest away, should that not be included in the matchup? If Peach struggles to get you off the ledge, you are playing with in the rules (they can still reach you, and force you to move, but it's very hard) and I think Sheik's ground speed means she could reach the other edge as soon as it is taken before Peach catches up. Gay as hell, but it could be legit, unless I'm stretching the stalling rules too far.

I know it sucks, but if it is a legit tactic, then it's gg. A single needle is all it would take to get you the lead. I know not many people want to play like this, but if it is the best way to win, why not?

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

I think thats stretching the stalling rules too far.... also thats pretty gay stalling with a 4% damage lead isnt what smash is about

 

[gm jack]

I think thats stretching the stalling rules too far.... also thats pretty gay stalling with a 4% damage lead isnt what smash is about

If it wins you the prize money of a tournament like the upcoming Pound 4, then why not do it?

There is no honour in a game. Nobody cares about how flashy you are in a tournament match, only who wins and who loses. But doing it in a friendly is pretty **** gay.

 

[Magus420]

Ledgegrabbing Lag: Link (4); Everyone else (8)
Disabled Regrab Period: ALL (29)
Ledgegrab Lag + Regrab Lag: Link (33); Everyone else (37)

Ledge Invincibility: Link (33); Everyone else (37)

If you let go of the ledge the 1st chance you get you have 29 invincibility to work with. Sheik's ledgedash is really good since she gets above the edge quickly. At best you can get up to 10 inv frames while on the stage to do whatever (Fox/Falco can get up to 14). You can definitely get an invincible d-smash/grab/roll/jump/etc off with good timing.

 

[Pi]

If you let go of the ledge the 1st chance you get you have 29 invincibility to work with. Sheik's ledgedash is really good since she gets above the edge quickly. At best you can get up to 10 inv frames while on the stage to do whatever (Fox/Falco can get up to 14). You can definitely get an invincible d-smash/grab/roll/jump/etc off with good timing.

Is sheiks aerial interrupt viable with any of her moves?
If so how many frames of invincibility would this allow?

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

i still think it would be against the rules or a TO would come in and tell you to stop ledge stalling. If stalling like that was allowed smash should be a 1 stock game

 

[Pi]

i still think it would be against the rules or a TO would come in and tell you to stop ledge stalling. If stalling like that was allowed smash should be a 1 stock game

Jiggs rising pound stall and peachs butt bomb are banned because they're more practical stalls that keep the user nigh unreachable for an extended amount of time

A well timed ledgegrab against a stalling sheik could cost that shiek the stock

 

[gm jack]

Jiggs rising pound stall and peachs butt bomb are banned because they're more practical stalls that keep the user nigh unreachable for an extended amount of time

A well timed ledgegrab against a stalling sheik could cost that shiek the stock

However, I was thinking that Peach doesn't move particularly quickly, so it would be a lot harder for her to get Sheik off the ledge. It's gay and will get you hated, but assuming Armada makes the matchup **** that badly, it seems like a viable option.

 

[Nihonjin]

i may get flamed for this but... why are we talking about the PAL match up werent we originally talking about NTSC. I think most of the sheiks in here play the NTSC version, and it must be an entirely different ballpark if the pall matchup is ~5-95

Because I'm allowed to talk about whatever the hell I want..:embarrass

Many characters can b-air her back off the stage until she dies. A lot of characters can do other things, but there's so many to list.

Whether you die or not depends on your DI and smarts when recovering. With Peach your DI and smarts don't matter, you just die.

but you have complete invincibility when you do a ledge WD and still have enough time to attack/move. You will go through his move....you are invincible.

You can't tell me you didn't know that.....

Yeah, good luck with that.

 

[unknown522]

my friend's laptop's being gay again and won't let me make semi-long posts:

@sveet: I dunno the numbers either. My guess was always between 15 - 20 frames.

@DJ Rome: I was going to ask david about the frame data....lol

@Nihonjin: for edgeguarding, it's simple to hold the edge and keep hitting her off. It doesn't take any predicion to do that, unless you're over 100% when edgeguarding sheik.

The ledge WD thing, try it out. Do it fast though.

 

[SPAWN]

Shino stalling on the ledge is legit. It isn't banned from tournament because you can grab the edge from the stalling Sheik. Haha, this one time I was shino stalling a Falco player, game 3, and he was flipping **** saying that it was banned. All the while he was on the other side of the stage on FD laser camping. XFD.

Anyways, he said that I couldn't do that and I was like you can grab the ledge at any point. He then proceeded and grabbed the ledge and I lost my stock at 0. Still won the tourny set though. I really regret telling him that.

So, if you ever have someone complain about it just say call the TO over. Also before that say that if you pause it you get dq'd for that match.

Thanks for reading Spawn's guide for being an ultimate ****** and make people legitimately hate you.

 

[Nihonjin]

@Nihonjin: for edgeguarding, it's simple to hold the edge and keep hitting her off. It doesn't take any predicion to do that, unless you're over 100% when edgeguarding sheik.

Like I said, good luck..:embarrass

The ledge WD thing, try it out. Do it fast though.

I did, it doesn't work..:embarrass

 

[soap]

it's not too hard to invincible ledgedash through moves

what is hard is when marth and peach don't attack but rather space out your ledgedash with rangy priority.

your invincibility ends and u are in bad spacing

 

[Spife]

this discussion is making me sad

 

[Nihonjin]

it's not too hard to invincible ledgedash through moves

what is hard is when marth and peach don't attack but rather space out your ledgedash with rangy priority.

your invincibility ends and u are in bad spacing

Exactly. :embarrass

 

[unknown522]

Like I said, good luck..:embarrass



I did, it doesn't work..:embarrass

alright, just trying to help

it's not too hard to invincible ledgedash through moves

what is hard is when marth and peach don't attack but rather space out your ledgedash with rangy priority.

your invincibility ends and u are in bad spacing

I'm aware of that, which is why I said you could do other things besides attack.

 

[Nihonjin]

alright, just trying to help

And I appreciate it. =]

I'm aware of that, which is why I said you could do other things besides attack.

Like?

Roll = Get hit
Spotdodge = Get hit
Jump = Get hit
Double jump = Get hit
Run to the middle of the stage = Get hit
Retreat back tot he ledge = Back where you started..

 

[soap]

u can buffer roll or spotdodge whilst still invincible.

its just predictable

best way to get off the ledge and do stuff is the clod zero dair lolz

 

[unknown522]

And I appreciate it. =]



Like?

Roll = Get hit
Spotdodge = Get hit
Jump = Get hit
Double jump = Get hit
Run to the middle of the stage = Get hit
Retreat back tot he ledge = Back where you started..

If you see them clearly trying to space on you or decide not to attack, then you can get on the stage to at least regain position. If they're commited to an attack, then you can go through them and shield / attack them with d-smash. You can even try to do a DJ from the ledge and land near the corner without an attack, if they're out of your range. You'll be out of their range as well since you're sheik (unless they're marth). Simple get up for the ledge when you're below 100% is effective (not spammable). You can try rolling when they are attacking (not recommended at all). Shortened WD? There has to be an opening at some point.

If I saw a vid, I could easily tell you what you could do in what situation.

It's not easy, but it's possible and there are a lot of options. Do different things based on where your opponent is positioned. Everything they do takes time as well. I would say as far as taking a hit may help you regain position, depending on what move it is. I'm sure you will find a way onto the stage.

Edit: all these things I suggested are without getting into platform stages (I was thinking about FD only}. Anyways, if peach is holding the ledge, have you tried doing up-b onto a platform? Peach's jump is pretty slow. Maybe you could take a hit going the other way, DI it and possibly be close enough to recover again without doing up-b. Or when you get the ledge, simply DJing from the ledge onto a platform?

 

[Pi]

Like?

Roll = Get hit
Spotdodge = Get hit
Jump = Get hit
Double jump = Get hit
Run to the middle of the stage = Get hit
Retreat back tot he ledge = Back where you started..

Can your opponent react to each one of those options without fail while not sacrificing ability to react to the others?

Many things in smash require an amount of guessing, if you're telling me that peach/marth/armada players has the ability to react to split second decisions accurately 100% of the time then I don't know what hope the rest of us who lack super human reaction speed have.


I'm trying to imagine how peach can cover all of sheiks options when she's on the edge.
Jump - pretty slow, easy to react to
Roll - if predicted at low %'s can get you throw back off stage, high %'s dsmash might cover this quite nicely
Get up - pre 100% fairly hard to react to unless predicted, post 100% if you know the animation fairly easy to react to and punish
WD on - you have quite a few options out of this, attack, spot dodge, jump, roll, I can't possibly believe that you can't change things up and still not be able to get back onto the stage.
I can't see peach standing in wait and reacting to every one of these options and the ones I forgot to mention.
Granted I don't have the level of experience you do against the level of opponents you do but I do fight marths on a regular basis and have never felt it impossible to get back onto the ledge once I grabbed it, and I can't invincibly wavedash as samus.

I'm sorry if you've run through all these options and have come to the same conclusion, but while I believe that yes getting back onto the stage is a chore, it's not impossible, and shouldn't be as easy to punish as I've understood you are trying to make it seem.

 

[I.B]

Can your opponent react to each one of those options without fail while not sacrificing ability to react to the others?

Many things in smash require an amount of guessing, if you're telling me that peach/marth/armada players has the ability to react to split second decisions accurately 100% of the time then I don't know what hope the rest of us who lack super human reaction speed have.

QFT.

Ideally, Armada (assuming it's his peach you're talking about) should be ready to punish all those options. But in reality, like knihT said, there is almost nobody who has the reaction time to punish each and every one of those options 100% of the time when they come up.

Players often get frustrated and think that's how the match is playing out, but when you look back at a video of it, you can probably think of better options in a given situation.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMj5dCTbQ9o
watch the end of the match, armada edgeguarded that sheik relentlessly but he was able to get back (even as zelda) and even beat armada

 

[Luma]

well at that time armada was only good, not ARmada-good

plus say stuff like "that sheik" when you talk about CJ, makes me sad ._.