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Sheik - Roy Match-Up Discussion

EnGarde

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
654
3DS FC
4914-3671-9440
Last edited:

EnGarde

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
654
3DS FC
4914-3671-9440

Score|:4feroy:
Overall|?
Neutral|?
Roy at Advantage|?
Roy at Disadvantage|?
Roy Edge/Ledge guarding|?
Roy on Recovery|?
Far Away|?
Mid Range|?
Close Combat|?

Preferable Stage Choices:

-

Stages to Avoid:

-

Notable Posts:

Woah, really impressed with the format that you suggest for people to follow. Really breaks it down to each individual factor (even if its a bit intimidating :p). I'll probably use your metric for this write-up.

But yea, I'm from the Sheik boards and here to offer my input on the MU. Disclaimer: I'm a Sheik main, not a Roy main. I'm fully aware of my own tools and potential abilities, but not Roy's, so forgive me if my input isn't as thorough as it could be. My personal experience in this MU is also a little sparse, so forgive me if this is a bit too theoretical.

MU OVERVIEW

Overall, this MU is in Sheik's favor (no surprises there). Sheik's myriad of options combined with her highly dominant neutral and edgeguarding game means this MU can become a bit suffocating for Roy. Our boy isn't completely outclassed however, as he does have some reliable combos and the ability to kill very early. This factor combined with Sheik's light weight means that things aren't as bad as they could be.

I would give this MU a 60:40 Sheik standing (maybe a little more even?).

Neutral

Roy has to approach. Sheik has needles to force this, and once you're in mid-range she'll start F-air walling. Roy will want to space with N-air, which is basically your main neutral option. It'll keep the aerial space occupied and catch any Sheik's that try to approach via the air due to its long duration. Roy can stuff a grounded Sheik approach with Jab and D-tilt, due to their good poking ability. This MU basically requires that you outplay your opponent, as your tools are inferior and Sheik gets so much from one opening. Don't get grabbed. I know that statement is kind of like "Don't breathe air", but Sheik gets so much off of grabs that you really can't afford it. If you're proficient at Perfect Pivoting, then using that to bait out moves from Sheik is a very good option. Since you're at a disadvantage here one of your main goals is to create situations where the opponent makes a mistake and you capitalize on that, so the displacement that PPing causes is very helpful for that. When punishing, don't get greedy. Going for a an F-smash or grab is tempting, but Sheik has godlike framedata. Your dash attack is fast and reliable, so stick to that when punishing small mistakes. Your U-tilt is pretty good as an anti-air and at covering a wide area.

A very good tool that Sheiks will use is F-air > Grab, so you will by extension have to avoid F-air at all costs as well. I'm unsure as to what moves beat what, but I'm gonna assume that Sheik's F-air beats all of your aerials. If N-air does beat F-air, make sure to abuse that edge.
Sheik will use F-tilt to stuff grounded approaches, and D-tilt (with crouch) to avoid aerials and punish upon landing. F-tilt, F-air and D-tilt can be made safe on shield, so if she uses them properly don't be reckless and go for a punish. Just accept their safeness, shield them and wait for an easier opening.

Roy at an advantage

Roy is able to obtain an advantage primarily through N-air and Grab. Side-B is also decent since its quick and can confirm into the full combo. Sheik is almost the perfect height and weight for comboing, plus your grab game is decent, so you'd want to stick to getting D-throw combos. Coming in with a falling U-air > whatever move is also good as punish. Of course, Roy doesn't have the combo means that Sheik does. Once you've finished a D-throw combo for example, make sure to read and hard punish her landing. Do whatever you can to prevent from getting back to the ground safely. She will mix up her landing by moving towards one side of the stage and then Bouncing Fishing to other side. Another method she'll use is B-reversing needles to suddenly change her direction. Be aware of these options position yourself to challenge all of them (if you can).

Roy at a disadvantage

In order to prevent the most amount of damage from Sheik's combos, DIing away is usually the order of the day. Do this for when Sheik has you in a F-air string. Sheik also has a powerful high-percentage combo of N-air > Bouncing Fish. If you get hit by a weak N-air, DI away to minimize the chance of being hit by the BF follow-up. When being thrown at early percentages, I'd actually recommend DIing in and up, rather than away. DIing up and in stuffs up F-throw > Bouncing Fish most of the time, and usually Sheik's don't expect you to go directly up after a F-throw, leading them to miss a F-air follow up. Needless to say you will want to mix-up your DI often. At high percents however, you really do want to DI away, as this will make it much harder for Sheiks to combo you with stuff like U-air. Other notes are to B-reverse your neutral B, as that's a good way to mixup your falling movement.

Roy edgeguarding

2 words: Good luck. Sheik's recovery is pretty busted. She basically recovers for free every time to the ledge. The only time I'd recommend going off-stage for an edge-guard is if you know what her aerial path is gonna be and you go in with a F-air. Roy's KO ability should lead that to a stock every time. Otherwise, you need to be really smart with your ledge getup reads. This is where Roy salvages the MU from the depths of drudgery; He just kills so damn early. You need those F-smash reads on roll-ons. You need those U-smash reads on jumps from the ledge. Near the ledge Roy can kill Sheik around 75%, which is certainly a boon for you guys. If you can read her getup options with aerials pretty consistently then that's a good way to keep the match in your favor, but its certainly easier said than done.

Roy recovery

Roy has a fairly predictable recovery, but one that's hard to swat away with Sheik, as opposed to someone like Falcon. Sheik will try and intercept you if she's confident in knowing where you'll be offstage, since her aerial mobility is so great. Aerial needles to Bouncing Fish is a killer here, so don't forget that that's a potent option or she'll catch you with it when you aren't expecting it. If you're far offstage, good Sheiks will bouncing fish into the stage and use the rebound to intercept you, basically dashing all hope of getting back for you. Generally, stick to going low for recovery, and go high as a mixup. That said, I'm unsure as to whether Sheik can do this to you guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36imZt-HzrM
If she can that's just another thing you need to look out for.

STAGES
Take Sheik to Battlefield, Town and City, Dreamland, Halberd and Lylat. Battlefield and Dreamland are similar in traits, shutting down F-throw > Bouncing Fish and having large blast zones. You're better at killing than Sheik so the extra effort to kill won't really effect you guys, but Sheik will feel it. Town and City and Halberd allow for you to kill Sheik around 60% or so, giving you a great edge here. Sheik does benefit slightly from this as well though. Lylat is a good choice if a Sheik relies on needles a ton. This is generally a good option to level out the playing field, where Sheik can't abuse her projectiles completely.


Relevant combo data

We don't actually have the numbers for Roy, but he has the same weight and falling speed as Pac-man, so we'll be using those for the time being:

F-throw > Bouncing Fish (percents for when its true without extenders)
DI away: 0-33%
DI up and in: None

D-tilt > U-air (for when it starts becoming true)
Standing combo: 106%
Double jab > D-tilt > U-air: 101%
D-tilt Roy on ledge > U-air: 114%
Into Vanish: 106%

Weak N-air > Bouncing Fish
DI away starting percentage: 85%
DI away ending percentage: 130%

Just basic Sheik combo percents on Roy. Watch out around these percents for these combos.
That's all for the moment. I'll probably come back later to give more info, but this is it for now.
 
Last edited:

EnGarde

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
654
3DS FC
4914-3671-9440
General Posting Guidelines
  • Quality Posts: Post relavant, detailed responses when possible. Avoid posting simple matchup ratios/scores. Providing data or tournament replays to support your post is always appreciated.
  • Civil Discussion: A discussion has more value when conducted in a civil manner than one with personal attacks. Please stay respectful of other posters.
  • Full Potential: Always assume that both characters are being played to their full potential. Don't base your position on sub standard play.
Analysis Guidelines
  • The Overall Matchup Score: Which character has the advantage over the other, and by how much. See below for definitions.
  • How The Matchup Should Be Optimally Played: How to fight the opponent more efficiently and deal with them. General do's and don'ts of the matchup.
  • Relavant Data: Frame data and tournament replays, among other things.
  • Stage Choice: Which stages should be chosen against the opponent, and which stages should be avoided. Also, how the stage elements factor in to the matchup.
Gameplay states to consider in your analysis
  • Neutral - Neither character have any significant positional advantages
  • Roy at an Advantage - How does Roy establish an advantageous postion, and how does he optimize keeping his opponent at a disadvantage?
  • Roy at a Disadvantage - How does Roy minimize damage while at a disadvantage (i.e. optimal DI while getting combo'd / juggled), and what tools can he use to escape?
  • Roy Edge/Ledge guarding - What tools does the opponent have while recovering, and how does Roy convert edge guards into stocks?
  • Roy on Recovery - What edge/ledge guarding tools does the opponent have, and how does Roy avoid them while recovering?
  • Roy far away from the opponent - What tools does the opponent have when Roy is far away from them, and how does Roy optimally close the distance? Is this a neutral position, or disadvantageous to Roy?
  • Roy at mid range away from the opponent - What tools does Roy and the opponent have when Roy is mid range away from them, and what can Roy do to convert into an advantageous position?
  • Roy in close combat - What close combat tools does Roy and the opponent have? Is this a more advantageous position for Roy or the opponent, and what should Roy do to space optimally to convert into an advantageous position?
Matchup Scoring

+4 = decisive advantage for Roy
+3 = large advantage for Roy
+2 = medium advantage for Roy
+1 = small advantage for Roy
±0 = even or insignificant (dis)advantages for Roy
-1 = small disadvantage for Roy
-2 = medium disadvantage for Roy
-3 = large disadvantage for Roy
-4 = decisive disadvantage for Roy
 

_Tree

The no-more hero
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Woah, really impressed with the format that you suggest for people to follow. Really breaks it down to each individual factor (even if its a bit intimidating :p). I'll probably use your metric for this write-up.

But yea, I'm from the Sheik boards and here to offer my input on the MU. Disclaimer: I'm a Sheik main, not a Roy main. I'm fully aware of my own tools and potential abilities, but not Roy's, so forgive me if my input isn't as thorough as it could be. My personal experience in this MU is also a little sparse, so forgive me if this is a bit too theoretical.

MU OVERVIEW

Overall, this MU is in Sheik's favor (no surprises there). Sheik's myriad of options combined with her highly dominant neutral and edgeguarding game means this MU can become a bit suffocating for Roy. Our boy isn't completely outclassed however, as he does have some reliable combos and the ability to kill very early. This factor combined with Sheik's light weight means that things aren't as bad as they could be.

I would give this MU a 60:40 Sheik standing (maybe a little more even?).

Neutral

Roy has to approach. Sheik has needles to force this, and once you're in mid-range she'll start F-air walling. Roy will want to space with N-air, which is basically your main neutral option. It'll keep the aerial space occupied and catch any Sheik's that try to approach via the air due to its long duration. Roy can stuff a grounded Sheik approach with Jab and D-tilt, due to their good poking ability. This MU basically requires that you outplay your opponent, as your tools are inferior and Sheik gets so much from one opening. Don't get grabbed. I know that statement is kind of like "Don't breathe air", but Sheik gets so much off of grabs that you really can't afford it. If you're proficient at Perfect Pivoting, then using that to bait out moves from Sheik is a very good option. Since you're at a disadvantage here one of your main goals is to create situations where the opponent makes a mistake and you capitalize on that, so the displacement that PPing causes is very helpful for that. When punishing, don't get greedy. Going for a an F-smash or grab is tempting, but Sheik has godlike framedata. Your dash attack is fast and reliable, so stick to that when punishing small mistakes. Your U-tilt is pretty good as an anti-air and at covering a wide area.

A very good tool that Sheiks will use is F-air > Grab, so you will by extension have to avoid F-air at all costs as well. I'm unsure as to what moves beat what, but I'm gonna assume that Sheik's F-air beats all of your aerials. If N-air does beat F-air, make sure to abuse that edge.
Sheik will use F-tilt to stuff grounded approaches, and D-tilt (with crouch) to avoid aerials and punish upon landing. F-tilt, F-air and D-tilt can be made safe on shield, so if she uses them properly don't be reckless and go for a punish. Just accept their safeness, shield them and wait for an easier opening.

Roy at an advantage

Roy is able to obtain an advantage primarily through N-air and Grab. Side-B is also decent since its quick and can confirm into the full combo. Sheik is almost the perfect height and weight for comboing, plus your grab game is decent, so you'd want to stick to getting D-throw combos. Coming in with a falling U-air > whatever move is also good as punish. Of course, Roy doesn't have the combo means that Sheik does. Once you've finished a D-throw combo for example, make sure to read and hard punish her landing. Do whatever you can to prevent from getting back to the ground safely. She will mix up her landing by moving towards one side of the stage and then Bouncing Fishing to other side. Another method she'll use is B-reversing needles to suddenly change her direction. Be aware of these options position yourself to challenge all of them (if you can).

Roy at a disadvantage

In order to prevent the most amount of damage from Sheik's combos, DIing away is usually the order of the day. Do this for when Sheik has you in a F-air string. Sheik also has a powerful high-percentage combo of N-air > Bouncing Fish. If you get hit by a weak N-air, DI away to minimize the chance of being hit by the BF follow-up. When being thrown at early percentages, I'd actually recommend DIing in and up, rather than away. DIing up and in stuffs up F-throw > Bouncing Fish most of the time, and usually Sheik's don't expect you to go directly up after a F-throw, leading them to miss a F-air follow up. Needless to say you will want to mix-up your DI often. At high percents however, you really do want to DI away, as this will make it much harder for Sheiks to combo you with stuff like U-air. Other notes are to B-reverse your neutral B, as that's a good way to mixup your falling movement.

Roy edgeguarding

2 words: Good luck. Sheik's recovery is pretty busted. She basically recovers for free every time to the ledge. The only time I'd recommend going off-stage for an edge-guard is if you know what her aerial path is gonna be and you go in with a F-air. Roy's KO ability should lead that to a stock every time. Otherwise, you need to be really smart with your ledge getup reads. This is where Roy salvages the MU from the depths of drudgery; He just kills so damn early. You need those F-smash reads on roll-ons. You need those U-smash reads on jumps from the ledge. Near the ledge Roy can kill Sheik around 75%, which is certainly a boon for you guys. If you can read her getup options with aerials pretty consistently then that's a good way to keep the match in your favor, but its certainly easier said than done.

Roy recovery

Roy has a fairly predictable recovery, but one that's hard to swat away with Sheik, as opposed to someone like Falcon. Sheik will try and intercept you if she's confident in knowing where you'll be offstage, since her aerial mobility is so great. Aerial needles to Bouncing Fish is a killer here, so don't forget that that's a potent option or she'll catch you with it when you aren't expecting it. If you're far offstage, good Sheiks will bouncing fish into the stage and use the rebound to intercept you, basically dashing all hope of getting back for you. Generally, stick to going low for recovery, and go high as a mixup. That said, I'm unsure as to whether Sheik can do this to you guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36imZt-HzrM
If she can that's just another thing you need to look out for.

STAGES
Take Sheik to Battlefield, Town and City, Dreamland, Halberd and Lylat. Battlefield and Dreamland are similar in traits, shutting down F-throw > Bouncing Fish and having large blast zones. You're better at killing than Sheik so the extra effort to kill won't really effect you guys, but Sheik will feel it. Town and City and Halberd allow for you to kill Sheik around 60% or so, giving you a great edge here. Sheik does benefit slightly from this as well though. Lylat is a good choice if a Sheik relies on needles a ton. This is generally a good option to level out the playing field, where Sheik can't abuse her projectiles completely.


Relevant combo data

We don't actually have the numbers for Roy, but he has the same weight and falling speed as Pac-man, so we'll be using those for the time being:

F-throw > Bouncing Fish (percents for when its true without extenders)
DI away: 0-33%
DI up and in: None

D-tilt > U-air (for when it starts becoming true)
Standing combo: 106%
Double jab > D-tilt > U-air: 101%
D-tilt Roy on ledge > U-air: 114%
Into Vanish: 106%

Weak N-air > Bouncing Fish
DI away starting percentage: 85%
DI away ending percentage: 130%

Just basic Sheik combo percents on Roy. Watch out around these percents for these combos.
That's all for the moment. I'll probably come back later to give more info, but this is it for now.
 

Jenna Zant

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 26, 2014
Messages
205
This is a pretty bad matchups. Perfect shields and dance trotting are your best friends. Wait until Sheik leaves an opening in her defenses, and punish. Don't let her catch you off stage or in endlag. Be careful with her, and especially make sure to use your rage to threaten her, hard. Overall, 60:40 in Sheik's favor.
 

Darklink401

Smash Master
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I'd put it at -3, or 30:70

It may be 35:65, because of Roy's killpower, but that alone can't save an entire matchup (see Sheik vs Bowser XD)

For a more detailed explanation of my thoughs, let's get some stuff out of the way:

Needles at high %s destroy Roy.
Sheik can deal with nair VERY well
Sheik dash attack can punish Roy's neutral B (not an easy feat)

Overall, Sheik's combo game on Roy is pretty terrible for the Red boy wonder, with ftilt comboing into itself from 17% upwards to 50% or so, and grab combos super rough. One mistake off the stage will cause Roy his stock, as Sheik can go as far as she wants to to edgeguard him.


On the plus side of the coin, Roy DOES kill early, and he has pretty fast attacks. I've found that as long as Roy can keep stage control and not get overwhelmed by the Sheik, it seems almost close to even. However, as soon as Roy loses that control over the match, Sheik can snowball him until he caves in.

Not sure on the overall stages, but something with platforms is preferable to lessen the ability to needle camp.
 
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Gemba Board

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
113
Is the :4marth: MU as hard as this one? I imagine Roy having a rough time spacing nair to keep sheik out. If he does hit, it'll be sourspot and lead to nothing since you're using it on neutral. In fact, Roy generally sucks at neutral because of that. He needs to be hyper offensive to make up for it, and sheiks frame data on fair and nair make that unbearable.
 
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Darklink401

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Is the :4marth: MU as hard as this one? I imagine Roy having a rough time spacing nair to keep sheik out. If he does hit, it'll be sourspot and lead to nothing since you're using it on neutral. In fact, Roy generally sucks at neutral because of that. He needs to be hyper offensive to make up for it, and sheiks frame data on fair and nair make that unbearable.
Marth struggles vs Sheik but not as much. I'd say its 70-30 for Sheik vs Roy (potentially 75-25) but 60-40 for Sheik vs Marth
 
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ligersandtigons

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Since Blazer has armour, how useful is it as an OoS option or as a way to catch Sheik's aerial approaches?
 

Gemba Board

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
113
Since Blazer has armour, how useful is it as an OoS option or as a way to catch Sheik's aerial approaches?
I was sorta wondering the same thing. Wiffed neutral b into blazer is a great frame trap too. But I don't know if it will be worth it if the sheik decides to space you once your shield is up expecting blazer. The reward you get isn't all that great at low percentage and at high the sheik shouldnt place herself in that oos position anyway. Blazer does have some kill potential though. I guess it depends on the read as always.
 

Seraphim.

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Since Blazer has armour, how useful is it as an OoS option or as a way to catch Sheik's aerial approaches?
If you can predict the fair or the Sheik overextends himself OoS Blazer is a good punish at higher percents since it can kill. Blazer could also be good to catch a Sheik using BF to get back onstage.
 

Wasserwipf

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Ok I know I'm a bit late to the party but yea. I guess this is a fitting place to show you this:

So yea, guess if you perform it correct OoS its a nice option. That is if you see the Bouncing fish coming (which is sometimes extremly obvious for some reason...)
 

Bobert

"...And His Music Was Electric"
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Ok I know I'm a bit late to the party but yea. I guess this is a fitting place to show you this:

So yea, guess if you perform it correct OoS its a nice option. That is if you see the Bouncing fish coming (which is sometimes extremely obvious for some reason...)
I don't think it's possible to catch her with Blazer if she holds away even if you chase her. She can jump away before she lands too.
 
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Dj9000

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Feb 2, 2015
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Ok I know I'm a bit late to the party but yea. I guess this is a fitting place to show you this:

So yea, guess if you perform it correct OoS its a nice option. That is if you see the Bouncing fish coming (which is sometimes extremly obvious for some reason...)
Yeah, I think it'll work maybe once per Sheik, because she can hold out of it, and if she does the rebound hit, she can kill you with the bull**** fact that the move can hit when it's not even facing you (happened to me trying to punish shielded BF as Falcon). Still really cool option though :D
 
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