Sheik ledge game discussion

[saviorslegacy]

In this thread we will be discussing everything dealing with the ledge.
This includes planking, anti planking, gimping and how to get to the ledge/stage.
Since this is character based I decieded to make it a discussion.
I'll go ahead and state my opinion. Your job is to add or remove information.

Without further ado we will go over our first option... planking!


Planking is attacking people from the ledge and regrabbing the ledge.
Sheik isn't exactly the best person ever when it comes to planking, but she can still do it.
So lets go over her overall options.

Ledge drop> second> Fair> regrab the ledge
Ledge drop> second jump> rising Needle Storm> regrab the ledge
ledge jump> rising Chain> second jump> regrab the ledge
ledge drop> instant Bair> DI back to regrab the ledge
ledge drop> second jump> rising Nair> regrab the ledge
ledge drop> second jump> rising Uair> regrab the ledge

There isn't much to say here.
Just use an option when they rush the ledge when you are trying to get back on.
Most of the time you should opt to getting off of the ledge though.

An important part of planking is invincibility frames, but that is also useful when gimping.
So here are her options:

ledge drop> second jump under FD's lip> wall jump/wall stick> Vanish> regrab
ledge drop> jump + Vanish (if timed right you will auto snap but the explosion will come out before you grab)> regrab the ledge
ledge drop> chain> instant pull in
ledge drop> Vanish> regrab the ledge



Now onto the first discussion.
Here will will talk about how to recover, recovery from the ledge, how to beat their planking, how to gimp them and how to keep them on the ledge.
First off.. MARIO!
*discuss



Be very careful when recovering.
He will almost always attempt to cape you and reverse your direction. You should usually go for the tether.
He will eventually catch on and you will need to recover low and try to teleport through the danger zone and touch the stage ASAP when you come out.

If you are on the edge you should simple get off with a rising Fair. Mario is shirt ranged and you will clank with everything he has. Also, be aware that he can cape you when you come up so be careful.

Mario is a poor planker. Simple use Chain to beat his planking.
If he ever tries to fireball just f-tilt them.

Use Needle's to remove his second jump. It will limit him to just Super Jump Punch. To beat this either use the chain and lock him under the ledge or time an edge hog.
If he gets to the stage with super jump punch just ledge drop> second jump> Bair to send him back out.

To keep him at the edge just use Bair and grabs. Also Needle's work well on anything other than ledge jumping and rolling.

I play Mario for low tier tourneys.

recover:
Mario is an AMAZING gimper. He has cape, FLUDD, a spike, up air, and back air. All of them are amazing gimping tools. You have to mix up your recovery, or else you will get caped. If he capes you too early, the start up lag of vanish will outlast the reversed controls. Be careful when going for the ledge. Mario can just ledge hog, or fludd you away. If you tether with the chain, the fludd will not affect you. If Mario is hanging on the ledge, be careful. He can aerial out of it, or he can ledge drop > cape and regrab the ledge.

recovery from the ledge:
You really have to mix this up. If he predicts a get up/get up attack/roll, he can forward smash (which kills early when sweetspotted) or down smash to send you back out there where he can start his gimping game again. Be careful when ledge hopping or ledge drop > double jump. He can cape you to send you back out, or he can back air/neutral air. His back air has pretty good range, and his neutral air has awesome priority, so don't try to challenge it. While Mario is on the stage, watch out for a ledge drop up B. If you are too close, it will hit you and knock you away, allowing Mario to get back onto the stage. If you shield it, Mario just regrabs the ledge.

how to beat Mario's planking:
Mario will plank by ledge drop > up B, or they can just ledge drop > cape which makes them grab the ledge again. If he is planking with his cape, you can hit him before he grabs the ledge again. If he is planking with his up B, you have to watch out for it. It can hit you through the stage, knocking you away. If you time it right, you can grab the ledge before Mario does with his up B, but if he sees this coming, he can cape stall, double jump, and get back the the stage.

how to gimp Mario:
Mario's recovery is his major downside. Get rid of his second jump and Mario can say good by to a stock. Even though Maro's recovery is bad, he still has his cape. When he capes in midair, his momentum stops and he hovers there for a second or two. This can cause you to miss you aerial, or get sent back to the stage from his cape. Mario can also cape backwards and hit you with his back air. Keep in mind, he only gets to use the cape like this once until he lands, grabs the ledge, or is hit. If Mario is in the upper corner and has a fully charged fludd, he can B reverse the fludd to propel him back to the stage with his back towards you, which lets him use his back air.

how to keep Maio on the ledge:
Just read and punish the get up/get up attack/roll and send him back off the stage with a grab or down smash. If he jumps from the ledge and air dodges, punish the ending lag. If he jumps from the ledge and uses a neutral air, be careful. His neutral air autocancels, so you have to hit him with a perfectly spaced aerial at his head or else you will be hit.

Luigi can be a hard person to gimp.
He is really floaty and has really good recovery moves. However, there are ways to beat him.

When Luigi is recovering you have to remember that his down B only works when he has enough upwards momentum. Because of this he always jumps before using down B.
This limits him to using only coin jump.

Ways to gimp:
When Luigi is trying to recover you should almost always snipe him with a Needle. It will remove his best recovery option. After that you should almost always follow up with a Fair to finish the gimp. If you can't do that you should ledge hog/chain hog. When he lands on the stage with his up B he has a lot of lag. At that point you should ledge drop, use your second jump and perform Bair to send him over the pit once more. Repeat until he is finally gimped.

Since his second method of recovery is so different and only is really good when he is above the stage I decided to talk about it separately.
When Luigi use's over B you can always stop it with a Needle. You can also knock him out of it with Fair/Bair.

Can Luigi be Chain guarded?
A: Yes he can. Once locked over the ledge he has no options to get through it.

How to beat his planking:
If you space far enough away you wont get hit by any melee moves. He can still throw Fire Balls though. The idea here is to just throw Needle's whenever he jumps up past the ledge.

How Sheik can recover:
Luigi can be a annoying since he can practically float.
When he comes at you to gimp you should always use Chain to tether. Then try to gimp him.
If he grabs the ledge then it can be harder for you to recover because you have to aim for the stage. Since he is so floaty and slow to punish you, you can be safe in some instances.

Gimping luigi is soooo important in this matchup we should be trying to gimp him every single time he is offstage. if luigi attacks when you do he will win so you have to wait for when he is vulnerable. Tornado and missle are ur ques to go get him cause he has alot of cool down after both. If he is smart he will try and mix up his recoveries most of then time he will recover high. When he nados hit him afterward same with missle. If he recovers low bait an attack after his second jump and try to fair him.

Watch out for luigis nado if he decides to use it while recovering low do not get hit by it or try to gimp him in mid nado it will kill you! Other than that tho luigis is fairly esay to gimp especially since he has slow air speed.

Chain at the ledge works ok but he can jump away from the ledge and fireball so if they figure it out its not worth doing.

If you know Luigi is recovering low using his nado, you can run off the ledge and reverse needle. This will stop them mid tornado, and since they were spamming B, they will shoot a fireball and fall to their death. Chain can work, too.

You have to be very careful when getting back on stage from the ledge. If Luigi predicts a get up/roll, you will be fsmashed or up Bed. If you get up attack and Luigi shields it, he will slide away giving you some breathing room. If you jump from the ledge, be careful since Luigi is like a ball of priority. He can eat through your aerials.

Whenever I play against Luigi, they usually don't chase me off stage. If they do, though, one fair/bair/dair can kill you.

Peach has an awesome recovery, that can fall prey to Sheik.
Follow these steps to bring her down.

Peach's main root of recovery is float. The cool thing is that this can be canceled by a Needle.
Make sure to always hit her with a Needle when she starts to float.
Her second best option is up B. Chain absolutely destroys this.
Her final option is over B and it only work when she is above the stage or to were she can grab the ledge.
So the game plan is 1 Needle + Chain to gimp Peach/get her up damage.
A Fair to knock her out of float/up B is also a good idea.

Unfortunately, she ***** our recovery too.
Try to Vanish to the stage. Most Peach's will float a little bit away from the stage and wait for you. She can easily grab the ledge and mess up your tether.
Just try your best to not get sent somewhat downwards when fighting her and you'll be okay.























:shiek:


























































































I will make the post look better later.
As of right now, just discuss Mario.

 

[thexsunrosered]

I feel like this thread could be an amazing tool and should be reviewed constantly. I am really really interested in seeing this thread progress. Now as for input for me, that will come another day

 

[saviorslegacy]

I feel like this thread could be an amazing tool and should be reviewed constantly. I am really really interested in seeing this thread progress. Now as for input for me, that will come another day

Trust me on this... I will make sure to bump it and annoy people until they post in it.
I will also keep it updated. xD


The reason why I am making it is because I am tired of going, "Oh that's cool!" in a match and finding something that could help me out a lot in gimping/another aspect. I am also starting to hate going "should I go off stage, stay on stage or what?"
I hope that this becomes organized to where anyone can learn how to exploit Sheik at the ledge to the fullest. Also as an extra, since this deals with off stage I hope to show her off stage options.

 

[Dcold]

Hmm...what's this smell...? Oh that's right that AT we were talking about.

Good thread idea, AT makes Sheik's ledge game more interesting on how to stop plankers safer i would guess but not completely safe though.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Hmm...what's this smell...? Oh that's right that AT we were talking about.

Good thread idea, AT makes Sheik's ledge game more interesting on how to stop plankers safer i would guess but not completely safe though.

It doesn't stop plankers safer. It would be a BIG mistake to use the NLC against plankers.
Plankers keep themselves tight to the ledge and will shut down any attempt to get in that close. Also, you put yourself in danger of getting gimped or spiked.
To stop plankers I prefer to use a full hop Needle's.
That way I land with no lag.

What the NLC is useful for is linking it safely into Nair or Fair. If you are lucky it can set up a stage spike by if they are closer to the stage than you and they don't attack you. That and it can take away their second jump while you position Sheik to gimp them.
However, since people rarely come in straight except for when grabbing the ledge this AT's main use is for safely linking into Nair. Which is good enough for me because Nair can kill.

It might be a footstool set up, but that is untested.

 

[choknater]

i just chain when ppl plank

or do a timing attack by running off the stage and bairing <3 ahh ****

 

[Dcold]

It doesn't stop plankers safer. It would be a BIG mistake to use the NLC against plankers.
Plankers keep themselves tight to the ledge and will shut down any attempt to get in that close. Also, you put yourself in danger of getting gimped or spiked.
To stop plankers I prefer to use a full hop Needle's.
That way I land with no lag.

What the NLC is useful for is linking it safely into Nair or Fair. If you are lucky it can set up a stage spike by if they are closer to the stage than you and they don't attack you. That and it can take away their second jump while you position Sheik to gimp them.
However, since people rarely come in straight except for when grabbing the ledge this AT's main use is for safely linking into Nair. Which is good enough for me because Nair can kill.

It might be a footstool set up, but that is untested.

Well what can i say, use it smart and pray the other player has bad reaction time ;D

 

[B!ggad]

I'm not too familiar with the "mechanics" behind the chain jacket (why or even IF the hitbox appears and reappears), but considering Fsmash chain jacket's range, I'd imagine it to actually have some use against planking.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Well what can i say, use it smart and pray the other player has bad reaction time ;D

I learned me lesson with footstools, that thinking is more like dreaming.

I'm not too familiar with the "mechanics" behind the chain jacket (why or even IF the hitbox appears and reappears), but considering Fsmash chain jacket's range, I'd imagine it to actually have some use against planking.

The chain jacket is an intended glitch that takes the last hit box performed and loops it into the chain.
It is known as a third dimensional attack by some.

FSmash is a huge freak of nature. I don't want to comment to much on it but lets just say that it is unreliable until we get its hit boxes to glow and we study it.

 

[rathy Aro]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7380011
Just posting the old thread as a reference.

 

[-Mars-]

Fsmash is almost as bad as ZSS'.

 

[stealth3654]

I play Mario for low tier tourneys.

recover:
Mario is an AMAZING gimper. He has cape, FLUDD, a spike, up air, and back air. All of them are amazing gimping tools. You have to mix up your recovery, or else you will get caped. If he capes you too early, the start up lag of vanish will outlast the reversed controls. Be careful when going for the ledge. Mario can just ledge hog, or fludd you away. If you tether with the chain, the fludd will not affect you. If Mario is hanging on the ledge, be careful. He can aerial out of it, or he can ledge drop > cape and regrab the ledge.

recovery from the ledge:
You really have to mix this up. If he predicts a get up/get up attack/roll, he can forward smash (which kills early when sweetspotted) or down smash to send you back out there where he can start his gimping game again. Be careful when ledge hopping or ledge drop > double jump. He can cape you to send you back out, or he can back air/neutral air. His back air has pretty good range, and his neutral air has awesome priority, so don't try to challenge it. While Mario is on the stage, watch out for a ledge drop up B. If you are too close, it will hit you and knock you away, allowing Mario to get back onto the stage. If you shield it, Mario just regrabs the ledge.

how to beat Mario's planking:
Mario will plank by ledge drop > up B, or they can just ledge drop > cape which makes them grab the ledge again. If he is planking with his cape, you can hit him before he grabs the ledge again. If he is planking with his up B, you have to watch out for it. It can hit you through the stage, knocking you away. If you time it right, you can grab the ledge before Mario does with his up B, but if he sees this coming, he can cape stall, double jump, and get back the the stage.

how to gimp Mario:
Mario's recovery is his major downside. Get rid of his second jump and Mario can say good by to a stock. Even though Maro's recovery is bad, he still has his cape. When he capes in midair, his momentum stops and he hovers there for a second or two. This can cause you to miss you aerial, or get sent back to the stage from his cape. Mario can also cape backwards and hit you with his back air. Keep in mind, he only gets to use the cape like this once until he lands, grabs the ledge, or is hit. If Mario is in the upper corner and has a fully charged fludd, he can B reverse the fludd to propel him back to the stage with his back towards you, which lets him use his back air.

how to keep Maio on the ledge:
Just read and punish the get up/get up attack/roll and send him back off the stage with a grab or down smash. If he jumps from the ledge and air dodges, punish the ending lag. If he jumps from the ledge and uses a neutral air, be careful. His neutral air autocancels, so you have to hit him with a perfectly spaced aerial at his head or else you will be hit.

 

[Judo777]

finally someone took the initiative. I suggested making this thread in two different threads a while ago. I think this is one of the most important aspects of sheiks game. It is her method of killing at reasonable percents. Thank you SL.

Lets make sure and do this thread right. Just remember there is no set way to gimp/edge-guard people and there is no perfectly safe recovery in the game everyone can be gimped and edge-guarded, granted some are easier than others and higher risks.

 

[choknater]

sexy tip: if someone's foot is standing right on the ledge, u can ledge drop with back and uair with the c-stick to quickly uair the person standing, the hitbox goes high enough. peach and mk can do this, sheik's hitbox barely reaches but it's just enough if they're standing there. very rare that someone will be standing in that spot but i tried it and it worked

 

[thexsunrosered]

Uair reaches alot further than that >.>

 

[ThreeSided]

Let's not forget vanish gliding as a gimping tool. It's very situational, and against some characters dangerous, and is not exactly effective as a "gimp", but if you know how to do it and throw it in seldomly (you should almost never be using this technique), you can catch them off guard and do a fair amount of damage/kill. When you're first doing it, if the opponent has a floaty character such as MK, Kirby, Dedede, or ROB, then they will have a tendency to just float around for a bit longer when they see you dashing towards the edge, thinking you are trying to hug it, which can often get them hit. But more importantly, it tends to scare your opponent a bit, and works as a great mind game: they will likely try to avoid that general area next to the stage, or if they have good control over their recovery, hesitate when you dash for the edge. Because let's face it: That **** looks scary, especially if you haven't seen it before. This is a perfect time to dash off and Fair/rising Fair.

 

[Dcold]

Chain over ledge can basically destroy everyone except MK Jigs Snake i feel. If they try to plank then chain over ledge can basically ruin that plan. Especially Mario, with a sub-par vertical and horizontal recovery, chain hurts him big time.

 

[Judo777]

Chain over ledge can basically destroy everyone except MK Jigs Snake i feel. If they try to plank then chain over ledge can basically ruin that plan. Especially Mario, with a sub-par vertical and horizontal recovery, chain hurts him big time.

Actually i think jiggs is one of the most viable people to chain camp because she doesnt have an upb so if you hit her out of all her jumps she dies.

Also vanish gliding is good but be careful. Watch to see if they will get the ledge if you miss cause if they do have to go onto the stage or you die. Also vanish gliding is very unsafe on yoshis because if you do a max distance glide and miss and they grab the ledge you die because if you try to go onto the stage you will slide off the slope in helpless state.

 

[Dcold]

When i say that, i mean over the ledge you can gimp their second jump with the chain. Those characters would be immune to being gimped by it. Jigs can go under it and side b to jump to go around the chain. But chain camping over the ledge can have the same effects, and expands who we can camp with it.

 

[-Mars-]

people are really ignorant about the chain lmao i rack up like 50% sometimes on morons lmao.

 

[Dcold]

Lmao Mars, its funny when they are knocked down, and you sh chain when they are getting up, you can get a good 70% if you move the control stick from diagonal down of your direction to diagonal down of the remote direction. It's hilarious. People think the chain sucks and is a waste of a move, they obviously don't know what that are talking about.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Since there is so much talk about gimping I thought I would revive this thread.

If you have any input on Mario please go ahead and post it.
We are now discussing Luigi.

 

[Judo777]

Gimping luigi is soooo important in this matchup we should be trying to gimp him every single time he is offstage. if luigi attacks when you do he will win so you have to wait for when he is vulnerable. Tornado and missle are ur ques to go get him cause he has alot of cool down after both. If he is smart he will try and mix up his recoveries most of then time he will recover high. When he nados hit him afterward same with missle. If he recovers low bait an attack after his second jump and try to fair him.

Watch out for luigis nado if he decides to use it while recovering low do not get hit by it or try to gimp him in mid nado it will kill you! Other than that tho luigis is fairly esay to gimp especially since he has slow air speed.

Chain at the ledge works ok but he can jump away from the ledge and fireball so if they figure it out its not worth doing.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Chain at the ledge works ok but he can jump away from the ledge and fireball so if they figure it out its not worth doing.

Technically this will not work since the idea is to keep them from grabbing the edge.
Also, if he does try to ledge drop we will hit him right then and there. He wont get a Fire Ball on us.

 

[-Mars-]

To add on to what Judo said. If you take Luigi's second jump it's incredibly easy to gimp him because then they won't have the option of rising nado unless they have godlike button presses like Boss lol. So yea hitting Weegee with needles offstage is really effective....also if he gets stuck under the stage you should pull out the chain to hit him out of his rising nado.

Just watch out for misfires....his recovery is really predictable actually. I think it's easier to gimp him than Mario.

 

[Judo777]

Technically this will not work since the idea is to keep them from grabbing the edge.
Also, if he does try to ledge drop we will hit him right then and there. He wont get a Fire Ball on us.

you have to be pretty perfect to prevent them from grabbing the ledge. but i suppose u are right. However if he does get it even if we hit him after he lets go he can still jump back and fireball.

 

[saviorslegacy]

you have to be pretty perfect to prevent them from grabbing the ledge. but i suppose u are right. However if he does get it even if we hit him after he lets go he can still jump back and fireball.

If you are dangling the chain over the ledge then you will be perfect.
The idea when you are chain locking is to get the chain into the air with the analog and then twitch it with the c-stick.
Anyone can easily lock Marth if he steps into the part of the chain that is dangling and is closest to Sheik. That is if they only use the c-stick and Marth DI's into it, but point made.

 

[stealth3654]

If you know Luigi is recovering low using his nado, you can run off the ledge and reverse needle. This will stop them mid tornado, and since they were spamming B, they will shoot a fireball and fall to their death. Chain can work, too.

You have to be very careful when getting back on stage from the ledge. If Luigi predicts a get up/roll, you will be fsmashed or up Bed. If you get up attack and Luigi shields it, he will slide away giving you some breathing room. If you jump from the ledge, be careful since Luigi is like a ball of priority. He can eat through your aerials.

Whenever I play against Luigi, they usually don't chase me off stage. If they do, though, one fair/bair/dair can kill you.

 

[saviorslegacy]

*updated
Now onto Peach.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I think that this is important.
Sheik has trouble killing, but she does NOT have trouble gimping or defending the ledge. I have played games in the past were I have taken the foe to the ledge at like 40%, work him to over 100% and then kill him with a rising Nair, stage spike or something like that.
So has gimpyfish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwconAONjxE


Things to answer are....
"How do I gimp Peach?"
(and) "How do I fight her over the ledge."

 

[Judo777]

this thread needs to be worked on. Its a good idea but alot of the info in the OP is kinda wrong.

Luigi is probably one of the easiest characters in the game to gimp. Other than that it just needs a more in depth look. There arent 1 move reactions to peoples recovery. I feel like i might type something up here in the near future.

 

[-Mars-]

yea, Luigi's recovery is extremely telegraphed. If your smart you can punish him every time he attempts to recover. Needles can steal his second jump or stop his side b, leaving him pretty much helpless.

The chain can also gimp him if used right lol.

 

[-Mars-]

Yea saviors or someone should really see this idea to fruition because Sheik imo is one of the best at gimping in the game......but aside from early Gimpyfish there has been little innovation on that front.

 

[-Cross-]

That would be such a huge topic though. I do agree that Sheik has solid gimping abilities, dunno about one of the best. In general, brawl has yet to fully extend itself into edgeguarding, character wise only MK's have really seen how good edge guarding can be as shown by M2K, but even then you still see quite a few MK's who don't go offstage as much as they should imo. I guess we could start slowly from character to character. Although first of all, the OP is just limited in describing Sheik's ledge game. First off, Sheik's planking is in general pretty bad imo and only becomes good when she can use her chain. But within the limit of the 3 uses of chain, Sheik can do some crazy things very quickly.

 

[-Mars-]

Vanish ledgestall. I've yet to test on whether or not u can be punished.

I agree that her planking game isn't good, but I disagree that she isnt one of the better gimpers:

MK
Wario
Pit
Kirby
ROB
Pikachu
G&W
Peach
Sonic
Squirtle
Samus
Jigglypuff.

Only characters imo that can challenge somebody offstage AND safely recover if they miss.

Sheik is arguably better than some of these characters.

 

[Judo777]

Vanish ledgestall. I've yet to test on whether or not u can be punished.

I agree that her planking game isn't good, but I disagree that she isnt one of the better gimpers:

MK
Wario
Pit
Kirby
ROB
Pikachu
G&W
Peach
Sonic
Squirtle
Samus
Jigglypuff.

Only characters imo that can challenge somebody offstage AND safely recover if they miss.

Sheik is arguably better than some of these characters.

I personally think that sheik is number 2 behind MK imo. While her recovery isnt as good and her aerials arent as high priority sheik does have some very important things concerning gimping people. I would say you combine her uncontested double jump, her needles, her chain, her quick aerials (which is very important), the trajectory of her aerials, her fall speed and her ability to change direction in mid air quickly all warrant her as number 2 imo. Sheik just has everything you can give someone who needs to gimp people bar priority and recovery distance (the 2 things MK has.)

 

[thexsunrosered]

that gimpyfish match was ****ing crazy lol
I woulda been so hyped

 

[-Cross-]

Eh, I guess I'm just afraid that I might be overrating Sheik, but whatever it's not a terribly important point. Btw what do you mean by uncontested second jump Judo?

Just a point of clarification. Does Sheik get invincibility the moment her chain clings onto the edge? And say that I just hung there until the invincibility frames wore out, would I have any invincibility frames if I retract the chain and start to actually cling on the edge?

Btw what game are you talking about thexsun?

 

[Judo777]

Eh, I guess I'm just afraid that I might be overrating Sheik, but whatever it's not a terribly important point. Btw what do you mean by uncontested second jump Judo?

Just a point of clarification. Does Sheik get invincibility the moment her chain clings onto the edge? And say that I just hung there until the invincibility frames wore out, would I have any invincibility frames if I retract the chain and start to actually cling on the edge?

Btw what game are you talking about thexsun?

Oh sheik has THE BEST double jump in the game except for yoshis (tho i dont think those are really comparable) it is tied with Falco and DK for height but its also the fastest vertically in the game (barely faster than falcos tho the difference is very small). Its amazing.

No sheik doesn't get any invincibility until you actually retract the chain. Then its the same as everyone esles. The difference is sheik is the only character that is invincible in mid retraction. Im not sure if her retraction is instant. If not then she might have more than other tethers if u count the usable invicibility plus the invincibility she gets when retracting.

 

[-Cross-]

Mid retraction? Holy **** that is too good. Yeah, Sheik's offstage tricksies were one of the main reasons I picked her up, nice to know that I made a good choice. Wow that second jump info is surprising. DK... Fox doesn't have a better 2nd jump? Mildly surprised