Sheik finisher %s, nair/fair>bouncing fish combo %s, whole-cast proportional kill %s (Updated!)

Othayuni · Jan 1, 2015

This came about because I needed a bunch of specific data on when combos worked, when was a good time/position to try specific finishers, and how to adjust based on what character I was matched up against. I ended up mining tons of data myself, and though there's always more to collect, this has already really helped me pick earlier, more efficient kills and be more timely with my combos. I've gathered all my data so far here in hopes that it will help you, too.

It should be noted that all of these tests are based on training dummies and therefore cannot factor in DI! I would expect DI to alter the effectiveness of this data by several % (as @

Tristan_win wisely reminds me). Blank spots are data I haven't collected yet. If you want to contribute, I'll use your data for those spots as long as no tests of my own say otherwise!

Character Proportional KB Resistances
Simply put, there's more to how knockback resistant a character is than their weight. There are useful weight tables out there, but none of them can really tell you "If it works at this % on fox, what % should I use it at on rosalina?"--that's what this table is for, for the entire cast. There are two tables, one for horizontal knockback and one for vertical, which turn out to be quite different. This chart should be useful to everyone, not just Sheik matchups.

Character Average Proportional %s Needed to Kill Horizontally, Compared to Mario (100%)

Rank | Character | Rule of Thumb % | Data-based proportion
1 | Bowser| 116%| 1.157
2 | Donkey Kong| 110% |1.10
3 | Charizard |107% |1.069
4 | Dedede| 106% |1.064
5 | Gannondorf| 105% |1.046
6 | Samus| 105% |1.046
7 | Yoshi |104% |103.8
7 | Wario |104% |103.8
9 | Ike |104% |103.5
10 | Lucas | 103% | 1.033
10 | Bowser Jr.| 102% |1.023
12 | Roy | 102% | 1.022
13 | Link |102%| 1.015
13| Mega Man| 102% |1.015
15 | ROB |101%| 1.008
15 | C.Falcon| 101% |1.008
16 | Mario| 100% |1
16 | Dr. Mario| 100% |1
16 | Shulk| 100% |1
16 | Ryu | 100% | 1
16 | Mii | 100% (+/- 2%) | 1 (.98-1.02)
22 | Lucario| 99% |.992
23 | Villager| 98% |.985
23 | WF Trainer| 98% |.985
23 | Dark Pit| 98%| .985
26 | Ness |98% |.977
26 | Pac Man| 98% |.977
28 | Luigi |97% |.969
28 | Pit |97% |.969
28 | Robin |97% |.969
28 | Sonic |97% |.969
32 | Toon Link| 95% |.954
32 | Duck Hunt| 95% |.954
34 | Diddy |95% |.951
35 | Palutena| 95% |.946
35 | Marth |95% |.946
37 | Peach |94% |.938
37 | Lucina |94% |.938
39 | Greninja| 93%| .931
40 | Zelda |92% |.915
41 | Little Mac| 91%| .908
42 | Sheik |90% |.904
43 | Kirby |89% |.892
43 | Meta Knight| 89%| .892
43 | Olimar |89%| .892
46 | Rosalina| 88%| .885
46 | ZSS |88% |.885
46 | Falco |88% |.885
46 | Pikachu| 88%| .885
50 | G&W |86% |.862
51 | Fox |85% |.851
52 | Mewtwo | 84% | .841
53 | Jigglypuff| 84%| .838

Character Proportional %s to Kill Vertically, Compared to Mario (100%)

Rank|Character|Rule of Thumb % | Data-based Proportion
1 | Dedede| 121% | 1.21
2 | Donkey Kong| 116% | 1.16
3 | Bowser| 112% | 1.12
4 | Ike | 107% | 1.07
4 | Bowser Jr.| 107% | 1.07
4 | Mega Man| 107% | 1.07
7 | Gannondorf| 106% | 1.06
7 | C.Falcon| 106% | 1.06
9 | Charizard |105% | 1.05
9 | Wario | 105% | 1.05
11 | Link | 104% | 1.04
11 | ROB | 104% | 1.04
13 | Samus| 103% | 1.03
14 | Shulk| 102% | 1.02
14 | Lucario| 102% | 1.02
16 | Roy | 101% | 1.01
16 | Duck Hunt| 101%| 1.01
18 | Yoshi | 100% | 1
18 | Mario| 100% | 1
18 | Dr. Mario| 100%|1
18 | Ryu | 100% | 1
18 | Mii | 100% (+/- 2%) | 1 (.98-1.02)
23 | Dark Pit| 99%| .99
23 | Pit |99% | .99
23 | Robin | 99% | .99
26 | Pac Man| 98% | .98
26 | Diddy | 98% | .98
26 | Marth |98% | .98
26 | Lucina | 98% | .98
30 | Villager| 97% | .97
30 | Sonic |97% | .97
30 | Little Mac| 97% | .97
30 | Luigi | 96% | .96
33 | WF Trainer| 95% | .95
33 | Ness | 95% | .95
35 | Toon Link| 94% | .94
35 | Lucas | 94% | .94
37 | Peach | 93% | .93
37 | Greninja|93% | .93
39 | Falco | 92% | .92
40 | Palutena| 91% | .91
40 | Zelda |91% | .91
40 | ZSS | 91% | .91
43 | Sheik | 90% | .9
43 | Meta Knight| 90% | .9
45 | Olimar | 89% | .89
45 | Pikachu| 89% | .89
45 | Fox | 89% | .89
48 | Rosalina| 86% | .86
49 | Kirby | 85% | .85
50 | Mewtwo | 84% | .84
51 | G&W | 83% | .83
52 | Jigglypuff| 77 | .77

Bouncing Fish Combo Data:
Bouncing fish is a true combo with fair and nair depending on what part of the attack hits and at what %. This table is designed to study what the % ranges of the combo are. These are based on what I'd call a "training room combo"; the training room registers it as a 2-hit combo but do not factor in DI.

|Start | Easy End | True End
Fair Strong Hit (5.5%) | 21 | 65 | 100
Fair Weak Hit (4.8%) |35| 85 |
Nair Strong Fwd. hit (8%) | 67 | 95 | 105
Nair Weak Fwd. Hit (5%) | 90 | 145 | 150
Nair Strong Bckwds. Hit (7%) | |
Nair Weak Bckwds. Hit (4%) | 100 | 175 | Crazy %s

How to read the table:
"Start" is the earliest % I can get the move to combo in to bouncing fish on Mario and have the training room register it as a 2-hit combo.
"Easy end" is the last % at which I don't have to do anything besides use the attack and then hit bouncing fish.
"True end" is my record % achieving a 2-hit training room combo in training room using "chasing" techniques to continue to enable bouncing fish to hit past the easy end %s. The combos can be extended significantly by quickly jumping and/or dashing after the opponent between the aerial attack and bouncing fish.

I would note for tacticians that outside of these ranges (give or take the power of DI to influence it), it is possible for your opponent to escape, but you might be able to chase a "false combo" in to a bouncing fish if you're fast and they don't react in time or read correctly.

Sheik Finisher Threshholds
These test the earliest %s at which Mario can be killed by a given move, from positions described in the graph. Cross reference with the proportional KB resistance chart to apply to other characters. Like the KB resistance chart I've split this in to horizontal and vertical killers for easy cross reference.

Side-killing attacks:

Upwards-killing attacks:

* Anti-air done to Mario standing on a platform with Sheik below. Anti-ground is both characters on floor level standing on their feet and I used a Sheik dummy since they can be hit by the grounded usmash and have a nice clean mathematical relationship to Mario. For example, on ground level, Sheik died at 99% uncharged and generally dies at 90% of the vertical damage it takes to kill Mario so I predict Mario would die at 110% if he could be hit by grounded usmash.

Tristan_win · Jan 2, 2015

Please don't claim something is a 'true combo' unless you tested for DI in Vs mode as it's only true if it's inescapable.

Other then that, O_o'

It took me a while to understand what exactly I was seeing. With Fair 5.5 which is how much damage it does, Fair 4.8 for weak hit, 8 Nair or strong nair, 7 Nair or back hit nair, 5 nair or weak hit, 4 nair or back weak hit. Then the new terminology with 'False Start' which means it connects but does not combo? True start, when it starts to work, easy end I'm assuming meaning its no longer easy? True ending when it stops working no matter what you do. False ending is just baffling to me.

So putting that altogether Sheik can combo Mario into BF
Fair 21-65%
Strong Nair 67-95%
Weak Nair 90-145%

These numbers can be improved though other means such as dashing, jump or even both into BF which extend the numbers
Fair 21-100%
Strong Nair 67-105%
Weak Nair 90-150%

Backwards Weak hit nair though can combo more or less forever once it reach 100%. ~This is something I will look into as I believe it has only a little be less knock back from 5 Nair.

After that you went down the list of moves to learn killing percents. Judging from your number you did it in training mode and did not wait for the 'kill effect' ...which I can't really blame you for as you don't need to on the wii u.

What I don't understand though is 'Right edge to left blast' I think I understand what that means but not where you got those numbers. Did you test the left side of Battle field platform with usmash and then the right?

The last nugget of info was at the very bottom, dthrow uair killing percents 120% without double jump and then strangly 126% with double jump. Are you suggesting double jumping only increases the range for this to work by 6%? Or that double jump makes uair kill later?

Overall I'm very impressed by all your hard work!!! ...Although I would of prefer if the information was a bit more...user friendly and neatly put together. I know you can do that as this: http://i.imgur.com/axR4NOg.png is orgasmic. It's a lot clearer what your trying to say.

By the way If you don't mind that I waited until the kill effect to appear before recording you can use this to help finish your chart

Vanish, incomplete

+6-7 Zzs center DI
+8-10 De3 center DI
+11 Jiggly center DI

| From edge, outward | From Center
Bowser | 128% | 152%
Dedede | 125% | 166%
Rob | 117% | 144%
Yoshi | 116% | 138%
Lucario | 112% | 140%
Sonic | 110% | 134%
Robin | 110% | 134%
Diddy Kong | 108% | 137%
Peach | 107% | 125%
Greninja | 106% | 130%
Zero Suit Samus | 100% | 125%
Pikachu | 100% | 123%
Rosalina | 100% | 119%
Mario | 112% | 138%
Marth | 106% | 135%
Little mac | 102% | 132%
Duck Hunt Dog | 108% | 136%
Toon Link | 109% | 130%
Villager | 111% | 133%
Jigglypuff | 94% | 109%
Kirby | 99% | 119%
Game & Watch | 98% | 115%
Wario | 117% | 146%

Othayuni · Jan 2, 2015

Tristan_win said:
Please don't claim something is a 'true combo' unless you tested for DI in Vs mode as it's only true if it's inescapable.

Other then that, O_o'

It took me a while to understand what exactly I was seeing. With Fair 5.5 which is how much damage it does, Fair 4.8 for weak hit, 8 Nair or strong nair, 7 Nair or back hit nair, 5 nair or weak hit, 4 nair or back weak hit. Then the new terminology with 'False Start' which means it connects but does not combo? True start, when it starts to work, easy end I'm assuming meaning its no longer easy? True ending when it stops working no matter what you do. False ending is just baffling to me.

So putting that altogether Sheik can combo Mario into BF
Fair 21-65%
Strong Nair 67-95%
Weak Nair 90-145%

These numbers can be improved though other means such as dashing, jump or even both into BF which extend the numbers
Fair 21-100%
Strong Nair 67-105%
Weak Nair 90-150%

Backwards Weak hit nair though can combo more or less forever once it reach 100%. ~This is something I will look into as I believe it has only a little be less knock back from 5 Nair.

After that you went down the list of moves to learn killing percents. Judging from your number you did it in training mode and did not wait for the 'kill effect' ...which I can't really blame you for as you don't need to on the wii u.

What I don't understand though is 'Right edge to left blast' I think I understand what that means but not where you got those numbers. Did you test the left side of Battle field platform with usmash and then the right?

The last nugget of info was at the very bottom, dthrow uair killing percents 120% without double jump and then strangly 126% with double jump. Are you suggesting double jumping only increases the range for this to work by 6%? Or that double jump makes uair kill later?

Overall I'm very impressed by all your hard work!!! ...Although I would of prefer if the information was a bit more...user friendly and neatly put together. I know you can do that as this: http://i.imgur.com/axR4NOg.png is orgasmic. It's a lot clearer what your trying to say.

By the way If you don't mind that I waited until the kill effect to appear before recording you can use this to help finish your chart

Vanish, incomplete

+6-7 Zzs center DI
+8-10 De3 center DI
+11 Jiggly center DI

| From edge, outward | From Center
Bowser | 128% | 152%
Dedede | 125% | 166%
Rob | 117% | 144%
Yoshi | 116% | 138%
Lucario | 112% | 140%
Sonic | 110% | 134%
Robin | 110% | 134%
Diddy Kong | 108% | 137%
Peach | 107% | 125%
Greninja | 106% | 130%
Zero Suit Samus | 100% | 125%
Pikachu | 100% | 123%
Rosalina | 100% | 119%
Mario | 112% | 138%
Marth | 106% | 135%
Little mac | 102% | 132%
Duck Hunt Dog | 108% | 136%
Toon Link | 109% | 130%
Villager | 111% | 133%
Jigglypuff | 94% | 109%
Kirby | 99% | 119%
Game & Watch | 98% | 115%
Wario | 117% | 146%

Hey! I really like your guidelines for how to clean this up. I had a feeling it was a pretty raw mess, haha. I'll work on turning it in to an in-forum table with clearer explanation; I'm excited that the data is interesting enough to be worth it.

In the mean time, to answer some of your questions about all the unclear stuff:
False combo is what I call escapable but situationally effective combos, like most jab cancels. Whether or not they succeed is based on the success of the readers. So in a training room, it's based on when I can get the followup to look fluid, but it's not registered as a 2-hit combo. That said, you're exactly right that this is all missing DI-factoring studies right now.

But based on what I've got from the training room, true start is the earliest I can get it to register as a 2-hit combo and true end is the latest. Easy end is when I don't have to do anything fancy to extend the combo, like dashing or jumping, collectively "chasing" in my notes. Between the true start and easy end brackets, I just have to land and hit bouncing fish.

The uair thing is me basically saying you can do the down throw at 120% to get it to 126% or just hit them while they're at 126% at an equivalent height.

Right edge to left blast is like hitting from the right side of final destination towards the left blast zone. Right now it's only filled out for usmash because those are the same no matter where you hit since it goes up. I consider that whole study incomplete.

Thanks so much for the interest! I'll update this thread over time in to a nicer looking, more clearly worded, embedded table.

Syde7 · Jan 5, 2015

Really appreciate the hard work. As Trisatan said, if you could make it into an easier to digest format, that'd be great. I actually don't mind it in spreadsheet form (so I can save it and tuck it away in my book o' sheik for studying, lol), though it would be great to have a "key" explaining what the various terms and numbers means (weak/strong hits, true end, etc...) for reference while perusing the data (or change the terminology.)

Other than that, outstanding effort & work, very much appreciated.

Othayuni · Jan 6, 2015

Check it out, guys! I updated the crap out of this! It's all clean and shiny! New data too!

Tristan_win · Jan 6, 2015

I wish there was a option to double like a post.

Syde7 · Jan 6, 2015

Ditto to what Tristan said. Very much improved visually from the first iteration, chock full of useful information that will def help everyone make wiser decisions during matches!

I might take this data and do the conversions myself for my own records (and probably post them here as well) so I just want to 2x check that I understand the math:

Essentially, take the % (attack) kills Mario, and multiply that by the % located in the "Rule Of Thumb" column for (character) to find out the % that (attack) kills (character).

Correct?
Again, thanks for the contribution.

Othayuni · Jan 6, 2015

Yes, that's correct! Let me write out an example just so I'm absolutely certain we're on the same page:

Mario dies edge-to-blast to bouncing fish at 130 damage;
Sheik has 90% of mario's horizontal knockback resistance (ratio = .9);
Ergo sheik dies from BF edge-to-blast at (130 * .9) = 117 damage.

And if you go in to the training room, I think you'll find that that is in fact an accurate prediction.

Happy hunting!

Syde7 · Jan 6, 2015

On the same page exactly, good sir. Much obliged.

Sheik finisher %s, nair/fair>bouncing fish combo %s, whole-cast proportional kill %s (Updated!)

Othayuni

Smash Apprentice

Tristan_win

Not dead.

Othayuni

Smash Apprentice

Syde7

The Sultan of Smut

Othayuni

Smash Apprentice

Tristan_win

Not dead.

Syde7

The Sultan of Smut

Othayuni

Smash Apprentice

Syde7

The Sultan of Smut

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