SH AD Options - Mixup opportunities and hit confirms galore

[Conda]

Skimmed this sub and couldn't find a topic dedicated to this.

Short hopped air dodges are fantastic for Marth, can't believe I never really noticed what it offers Marth.

Was chatting about this in the Comp. Forums briefly after Shaya shed some light on it. Here's my post from there:

I think this may actually be helpful on Marth/Lucina, as their short hop air dodge is a legitimate approach option as they can use every aerial just before landing, perhaps it'd be rather feasible for them to implement footstool jumping into that "aggressive" option spread.

Wow, didn't know this. Labbing it up, it's amazing.

SH airdodge -> nair lets Marth follow up with almost anything afterward upon landing. When you sh airdodge and use nair afterward, the first hit of the nair comes out and stuns the opponent, and Marth lands with no landing lag and can use anything to follow up.

So far I've found Fsmash and Usmash can be used, but can be clashed with many 3-4 frame moves (nairs) because they're a little slow. This is still awesome though because you usually still get your fsmash out. This is awesome because the reward on fsmash is huge.

If you calculate that you need a faster option, there are LOADS to choose from - utilt, dtilt, and dsmash work beautifully to follow up on hit confirm.

You can also use grab after landing to ensure a follow up as the grab is so quick, and it'll likely clash with nairs. This is probably one of the best followups you can do as it is safe on hit and block. So if your nair hits, your grab will land. If your nair hits a shield, you'll grab them out of shield if they don't first.

Not to mention how useful it is for using moves other than nair. Nair is for ground followups, but fair, uair, and shield breaker work beautifully too. And sh airdodge to side B is super fun.

Loving this, Marth actually feels so much better when using sh airdodges.

Basically - SH+AD and then NAIR before landing gets a hitbox out without any landing lag than can be followed up with on hit-confirm. If you don't hit, you can go for a grab, shield breaker, or some other mix-up. Grab is super dependable as a follow up.

You don't even have to use NAIR at all though after the AH AD - there are other options. You can use Side B, B, nothing, Fair, Uair, or double jump for a footstool (wee!).

Uair leads to followups due to low landing lag, fair is a solid hit, and side b can rack up damage really well. Doing nothing and grabbing upon landing makes this a basic SH AD approach, but marth's ability to use aerials after the airdodge give him so many good options.

 

[Shaya]

If you go over the coalition thread you'll find all the details of this and more. Being behind the Marth meta lasts only until you read all the pages of gold mined information.

 

[Conda]

If you go over the coalition thread you'll find all the details of this and more. Being behind the Marth meta lasts only until you read all the pages of gold mined information.

Thanks Shaya. So even with these possibilities, do we still feel Marth can't really compete as a solomain like in previous games?

 

[Shaya]

Why would something I've known for 3 months really help him compete?
It feels good, and looks good. It isn't infallible by any means and strays away from mix up to more so risky-gesture, unless you're using it reactively. The limit of this is that you can't really vary your air dodge timing at all, there is no "bait" there, if players respect both rising aerial and the possibility of an air dodge (on reaction) they will punish.

It's been talked about as being good for Megaman and other projectile zoners. Actually in general, anyone who cannot reliably punish well spaced aerials on shield (i.e. like 10-15 characters).

 

[Emblem Lord]

It is a damn solid option, but not infallible. And the reward isn't crazy. The SH airdodge itself is what makes it good imo. Marth can break past zoners without much risk.

 

[EternalFlame]

In agreement that its quite a solid option, and I didnt think too much on it until X ian started using the other options of sh ad like 2 or so Months back xD

Its part of my staple gameplay these days and Id recommend anyone to do similar (especially for the Nair and Fair options). Really it helps with also the B moves, and the setups can really stack up together when using stuff like this inbetween

 

[Conda]

Mario can do a lot with this too (as can tlink, samus, DH, and peach). But only marth can get that first hit of the nair to follow up with a ground option. So good.

 

[EternalFlame]

Mario can do a lot with this too (as can tlink, samus, DH, and peach). But only marth can get that first hit of the nair to follow up with a ground option. So good.

Yeah, the fact that a lot of the cast can do it makes this approach really useful if you know your opponent is an agro type player. Though I imagine Mario could get his UAir setup from this too, along with any other character that has a similar speed and weight and up.

Really, the approach leads to easy landing Aerial setups for those of the right properties, and gives a better chance for those combos to happen xD

 

[Conda]

Yeah, the fact that a lot of the cast can do it makes this approach really useful if you know your opponent is an agro type player. Though I imagine Mario could get his UAir setup from this too, along with any other character that has a similar speed and weight and up.

Really, the approach leads to easy landing Aerial setups for those of the right properties, and gives a better chance for those combos to happen xD

Yeah its also super fun haha. I think my main is gonna have to be able to use this tech also for some characters who cannot do it, they can still do some decent FH AD options. Nothing quite like marty or marios Sh Ad though.

And yeah Mario gets his uair out after Sh Ad, which is great.

Funnily, greninja cannot do anything after except for Up B, which is kind of interesting.

Peach can also do Nair or float afterward to do any aerial which adds to her tech ceiling. Still not sure of learning her is worth it though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I...underestimated this. This is soooooooooooooooo legit. Like, it allows Marth to camp virtually anyone in the game. He can SH AD then jump instant AD then AD again on the way down and still recover in time to have normal landing recovery. If they try to hit you just buffer a Uair or a up b to blow through them. Combine this with perfect pivot, walking, smart rolling, empty SHs and poking with d-tilt and Marth can wall with mobility and invincibility frames not so much his sword.

Good **** @ Conda . Marth's meta just evolved a bit more.

Seriously guys try it. Even if you havent mastered perfect pivot just combine the SH AD with walking, fox trots and smart rolls. Its so good. SH AD then roll towards your opponent is hella good when they try to make a hasty approach.

It's a strong bait tactic that draws opponents in and makes them want to swing at you. Then you swing back and stuff them. Dont be afraid to dance in and out of other peoples zones. You gotta show your opponent you are not afraid of their zone.

Also pro tip. Setting the c-stick to tilt is a MUST with Marth. Trust me guys. You HAVE to. Walking to d-tilt is waaaaaaaaaaaay too vital. So is perfect pivot to d-tilt.

I'm starting to feel Marth isnt worth playing unless you intend to master perfect pivot. He is far more fluid with it. At the very last SH AD has to be mastered.

 

[jmanup85]

I...underestimated this. This is soooooooooooooooo legit. Like, it allows Marth to camp virtually anyone in the game. He can SH AD then jump instant AD then AD again on the way down and still recover in time to have normal landing recovery. If they try to hit you just buffer a Uair or a up b to blow through them. Combine this with perfect pivot, walking, smart rolling, empty SHs and poking with d-tilt and Marth can wall with mobility and invincibility frames not so much his sword.

Good **** @ Conda . Marth's meta just evolved a bit more.

Seriously guys try it. Even if you havent mastered perfect pivot just combine the SH AD with walking, fox trots and smart rolls. Its so good. SH AD then roll towards your opponent is hella good when they try to make a hasty approach.

It's a strong bait tactic that draws opponents in and makes them want to swing at you. Then you swing back and stuff them. Dont be afraid to dance in and out of other peoples zones. You gotta show your opponent you are not afraid of their zone.

Also pro tip. Setting the c-stick to tilt is a MUST with Marth. Trust me guys. You HAVE to. Walking to d-tilt is waaaaaaaaaaaay too vital. So is perfect pivot to d-tilt.

I'm starting to feel Marth isnt worth playing unless you intend to master perfect pivot. He is far more fluid with it. At the very last SH AD has to be mastered.

Noted. I might pick him back up to compliment my Ganondorf. Guess it's time to master these techs. But what's the best way to master perfect pivoting? It seems too difficult for me atm.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I...underestimated this. This is soooooooooooooooo legit. Like, it allows Marth to camp virtually anyone in the game. He can SH AD then jump instant AD then AD again on the way down and still recover in time to have normal landing recovery. If they try to hit you just buffer a Uair or a up b to blow through them. Combine this with perfect pivot, walking, smart rolling, empty SHs and poking with d-tilt and Marth can wall with mobility and invincibility frames not so much his sword.

Good **** @ Conda . Marth's meta just evolved a bit more.

Seriously guys try it. Even if you havent mastered perfect pivot just combine the SH AD with walking, fox trots and smart rolls. Its so good. SH AD then roll towards your opponent is hella good when they try to make a hasty approach.

It's a strong bait tactic that draws opponents in and makes them want to swing at you. Then you swing back and stuff them. Dont be afraid to dance in and out of other peoples zones. You gotta show your opponent you are not afraid of their zone.

Also pro tip. Setting the c-stick to tilt is a MUST with Marth. Trust me guys. You HAVE to. Walking to d-tilt is waaaaaaaaaaaay too vital. So is perfect pivot to d-tilt.

I'm starting to feel Marth isnt worth playing unless you intend to master perfect pivot. He is far more fluid with it. At the very last SH AD has to be mastered.

I abuse airdodge baits all the time with Mario and Ganon. I personally think while it's quite useful, it's nothing to be really excited about. It's a mixup obviously, and we'll eventually all have adapted to it and integrated it universally pretty soon. I do however believe that this universal option is good for the game and makes a lot of matchups way more balanced because of the amount of nonsense that people aren't allowed to get away with mindlessly.

Perfect pivoting is pretty silly though, but I'm terrible at doing it in both directions consistently.

 

[Novaseer]

A short hop airdodge is basically a 36 active frame action with a 7 frame start up (counting the jump squat). We can compare this to a roll which is a 30 frame action with a 3 frame start up. The airdodge has 7 frames with no invincibility at the end compared to a roll's 9. Right away we see that the airdodge is both slower and longer than a roll with a comparably vulnerable ending. The airdodge's advantage is its slightly longer invincibility (4 frames) and mobility control. They both also cover the same max distance.

My point is that if a roll is considered generally an unsafe option, then so is a short hop airdodge if the opponent knows the correct punish. The punish for most characters to use is an early short hop N-air. The meaty, lasting frames of a typical N-air lets it hit Marth guaranteed as he leaves the airdodge. Plus, since they're short hopping as well, they can match mobility with Marth whose air movement is already a little on the slow side.

The short hop airdodge is a good option to have, but I hesitate to call it amazing.

EDIT: Corrected my frame data. Airdodging looks even worse now. Air dodge data comes from here, and roll data from here.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thats why you gotta combine it with all the other mobility options. The airdodge is one part of the equation.

 

[CommanderRin]

This was like a discovery from a few months ago.

Well, the more Marcina's that learn it, the better I guess :*

Grab is my favorite follow-up cuz lotsa characters can just shield everything and then punish.

SH-AD U-Air -> DB is best tho (not actually, just my most used)

 

[Shaya]

I would say we greatly underappreciate our ability to jump before landing out of most aerials.

Also

() +
= down tilt
(all variations) = forward tilt

I find I like the ability to easily charge smash attacks as 2g.
Especially with my super secret down smash technology (I don't think there would be a faster + longer range move with only a 2 frame release window).

 

[EternalFlame]

I...underestimated this. This is soooooooooooooooo legit. Like, it allows Marth to camp virtually anyone in the game. He can SH AD then jump instant AD then AD again on the way down and still recover in time to have normal landing recovery. If they try to hit you just buffer a Uair or a up b to blow through them. Combine this with perfect pivot, walking, smart rolling, empty SHs and poking with d-tilt and Marth can wall with mobility and invincibility frames not so much his sword.

Good **** @ Conda . Marth's meta just evolved a bit more.

Seriously guys try it. Even if you havent mastered perfect pivot just combine the SH AD with walking, fox trots and smart rolls. Its so good. SH AD then roll towards your opponent is hella good when they try to make a hasty approach.

It's a strong bait tactic that draws opponents in and makes them want to swing at you. Then you swing back and stuff them. Dont be afraid to dance in and out of other peoples zones. You gotta show your opponent you are not afraid of their zone.

Also pro tip. Setting the c-stick to tilt is a MUST with Marth. Trust me guys. You HAVE to. Walking to d-tilt is waaaaaaaaaaaay too vital. So is perfect pivot to d-tilt.

I'm starting to feel Marth isnt worth playing unless you intend to master perfect pivot. He is far more fluid with it. At the very last SH AD has to be mastered.

Um... you do realize that its been written/spoken on in the past right? ^^" We've had the SH Air dodge > attack tactic for a while now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

By itself I didn't consider it that strong, but when you combine it with other movement options it shines.

I also didn't see it as special because in my state I only fight top tier chars in tourney for the most part, and those chars really don't care about the SH AD. So I wasn't able to see it's potential until I fought people that used other chars that played footsies.

You are the third person to say this to me btw.

 

[EternalFlame]

By itself I didn't consider it that strong, but when you combine it with other movement options it shines.

I also didn't see it as special because in my state I only fight top tier chars in tourney for the most part, and those chars really don't care about the SH AD. So I wasn't able to see it's potential until I fought people that used other chars that played footsies.

You are the third person to say this to me btw.

the whole delay on SmashBoards is always a joy :/ My appologies sir

 

[chococrow]

If you sh ad nair and land right next to them you can go to a down tilt and shutter step a tipper f smash at low percents.