[SERIOUS] What makes Ganon unique from Captain Falcon or Ike?

[dizzypink]

I've been thinking about getting into Ganon since I heard he can use his sword and float in 3.5, but other than that what major differences does he have from Falcon or Ike? It seems like anything he can do, they can do with a bigger hitbox or faster and follow it up better too. It seems useless to get good at Ganon when I already have a good Ike AND CF.
Can someone explain to me what Ganon can do that those two can't? Does he have any unique launches that I forgot about? Is it just a matter of knowing when to fly? Why doesn't his similarities with these characters come up more often?
PS. I guess I could be considered a noob on account of my knowledge of the game, it's admittedly very little, but I grow more from playing than studying, so I'm using this post mostly to see what I'm missing about Ganon so I can make full use of him. Thanks!

 

[teluoborg]

1- http://smashboards.com/threads/the-entrance-of-the-castle-q-a-faq-and-useful-links.356884/
Serious question : is it hard to find ? Do I need to change the title so that it's more obvious the questions should be asked there ? No sarcasm intended.

2- obligatory : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZNJhUld7Ek

3- If you really want to start a serious discussion you should start by listing a few things you think Ganon does similarly to Ike or Falcon, because as someone who plays the 3 characters to some extend I don't see any save from the "dash dance for a while then go in with side B" strat.

 

[dizzypink]

1- http://smashboards.com/threads/the-entrance-of-the-castle-q-a-faq-and-useful-links.356884/
Serious question : is it hard to find ? Do I need to change the title so that it's more obvious the questions should be asked there ? No sarcasm intended.

2- obligatory : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZNJhUld7Ek

3- If you really want to start a serious discussion you should start by listing a few things you think Ganon does similarly to Ike or Falcon, because as someone who plays the 3 characters to some extend I don't see any save from the "dash dance for a while then go in with side B" strat.

Oh yeah, sorry. I don't know why I made this thread honestly, it's just I was playing with a friend at the time and didn't think to look stuff up.

 

[G13_Flux]

ganon now has a way to deal with projectiles more efficiently than ike of CF. additionally, the damage output and KO potential that ganon has is quite unreal, and compared to the other two, you will find yourself killing earlier with ganon if you make the right reads.

compared to falcon, ganon is slower but has better coverage and range with his moves, and obviously more power. because of the speed difference of these two characters, you cant play ganon like you play falcon. you cant DD around and then go in for the JC grab punish eventually.. it doesnt work that way with ganon. you have to space ftilts, fairs, and bairs, and really make use out of platforms in conjunction with your uair as a means of covering a lot of space. in MUs where disjoints would render it difficult for falcon, i would use ganon. additonally, ganon doesnt get comboed as hard, and has a better recovery, which means hes going to survive a lot longer. i can already tell you that MUs like roy and marth are going to be a lot better for ganon than for CF for those reasons.

compared to ike, ganon lacks the disjoint but still wins the power competition by a bit. ganon also has a better edge guarding game than ike. where ganon shines over ike is in the endlag of most of his attacks. things like uair, ftilt, fair, dair, and dtilt are moves that are going to be very critical in this comparision that show that ganon has more than a few moves that will beat out ikes in terms of speed, with a few of those being ganons main killers, and a valuable set up from CCing. i would also argue that between moves like fair, uair, nair, and bair, ganon is superior at controlling airspace. ike certainly has ranged aerials, but fair has too much start up and end lag to be used outside of combo finishers as relialbly, uair doesnt cover well above him, and ganons bair beats out ikes in terms of duration and power consistency (no reduction in power at the tip).

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

ganon now has a way to deal with projectiles more efficiently than ike of CF.

Not to nitpick or anything, but being incredibly fast is a much better answer to projectiles than our silly reflector.

 

[G13_Flux]

Not to nitpick or anything, but being incredibly fast is a much better answer to projectiles than our silly reflector.

i would agree with you in some MUs. but there are other MUs, like falco, that CF has classically done less than sub par in. powershielding is one way to go, sure, but youre going to get a higher percentage of reflects completed with ganons neutral b, and that could alter the MU for him. falcons only way to deal with projectiles really is to nair through them, which requires commitment, and is terribly telegraphed and very CCable, which i know all to well as a peach main from melee. not saying his reflector is game breaking, but it gives ganon an answer to situations that CF or ike dont have answers to, and takes a bit of the heat off. even if this takes a few MUs that were 55-45 in favor against ganon, and turns them even, thats still a jump, and shouldnt be discredited.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Our reflector is very situational from a certain distance that may or may not effect our opponent and could also effect us and sometimes is better to power shield or even clank or not do lol.

I do like pimp slapping hoes tho.

 

[dizzypink]

ganon now has a way to deal with projectiles more efficiently than ike of CF. additionally, the damage output and KO potential that ganon has is quite unreal, and compared to the other two, you will find yourself killing earlier with ganon if you make the right reads.

compared to falcon, ganon is slower but has better coverage and range with his moves, and obviously more power. because of the speed difference of these two characters, you cant play ganon like you play falcon. you cant DD around and then go in for the JC grab punish eventually.. it doesnt work that way with ganon. you have to space ftilts, fairs, and bairs, and really make use out of platforms in conjunction with your uair as a means of covering a lot of space. in MUs where disjoints would render it difficult for falcon, i would use ganon. additonally, ganon doesnt get comboed as hard, and has a better recovery, which means hes going to survive a lot longer. i can already tell you that MUs like roy and marth are going to be a lot better for ganon than for CF for those reasons.

compared to ike, ganon lacks the disjoint but still wins the power competition by a bit. ganon also has a better edge guarding game than ike. where ganon shines over ike is in the endlag of most of his attacks. things like uair, ftilt, fair, dair, and dtilt are moves that are going to be very critical in this comparision that show that ganon has more than a few moves that will beat out ikes in terms of speed, with a few of those being ganons main killers, and a valuable set up from CCing. i would also argue that between moves like fair, uair, nair, and bair, ganon is superior at controlling airspace. ike certainly has ranged aerials, but fair has too much start up and end lag to be used outside of combo finishers as relialbly, uair doesnt cover well above him, and ganons bair beats out ikes in terms of duration and power consistency (no reduction in power at the tip).

Thank you, this was something like what I was looking for at the start.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

ganon also has a better edge guarding game than ike.

Uhhhhhhh

Sorry but as long as Ike's fair exists I have no idea how this can be true ...

Develop the hover edgeguard metagame first, then maybe we can talk about this.

 

[Electric Tuba]

One thing Ganon DOES have over Ike's edgeguard is that he can wait out any stalls by just hovering.

 

[dizzypink]

I feel like Ike and Ganon have different types of edgeguards but it depends on the match up and stage who does better with it. Ganon can wait out more stuff, like electric tuba said, but Ike can just totally prevent the need to edgeguard by going out there with a fair. Ganon is safer, but Ike is slightly easier to handle and more reliable I feel, so I'd give the edgeguard game to Ike on small stages, but on bigger ones I have to say Ganon wins out more often.

 

[Super_Primid]

I've been thinking about getting into Ganon since I heard he can use his sword and float in 3.5.

Not trying to be mean but he can use his sword for ONE warlock punch strength move...... A taunt.

 

[dizzypink]

Not trying to be mean but he can use his sword for ONE warlock punch strength move...... A taunt.

I know, but it's much longer range than his punch was, and with a much bigger hitbox now that it's a swing instead of a punch. I think it's slightly better than his punch was.

 

[Super_Primid]

I know, but it's much longer range than his punch was, and with a much bigger hitbox now that it's a swing instead of a punch. I think it's slightly better than his punch was.

Depends, in most peoples opinion (mine too) they say it is better. Though othets can argue that you can turn around with warlock punch..



Then we just say that we have super armor on our attack.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Alright well, for starters.

- Ganon is very different from Ike in that a lot of his kill options are not disjointed and his edgeguarding is not as good as Ike's, but that's not to say Ganon's edgeguarding isn't good, because it's amazing.
- Ike does not have a hover, which significantly improves Ganon's edgeguarding and helps just a smidge in Ganon's neutral (enough to count)
- Ganon's D-Throw is probably one of if not the best throw in the game, with there being legitimately no real optimal DI at most percents to my knowledge.
- Ganoncides, while not major or even mostly applicable, are only achievable with Ganondorf. This is worth noting because Ganoncides are the best.

As for which of the two is better, tough call. I don't play enough Ike or have enough experience. I am of preference towards Ganon but preference and factual performance are different beasts entirely, hah.

Not gonna explain Captain Falcon because playing them side by side yields the most accurate observation ever. They're hardly comparable beyond animations.

 

[Ace55]

- Ganon's D-Throw is probably one of if not the best throw in the game, with there being legitimately no real optimal DI at most percents to my knowledge.

Optimal DI for dthrow exist. It's just typically: how do I get to a platform or which way won't get me killed outright.

 

[CORY]

i think that's what he was implying : p it's just really hard to di in such a way that ganon can't react and get something out of it. (unless that's also what you were saying and i'm just taking your response too seriously : O )

 

[Ace55]

i think that's what he was implying : p it's just really hard to di in such a way that ganon can't react and get something out of it.

I know, I just wanted to stress that DI'ing his dthrow in ways that minimize the punishment taken is still very important. He's gonna be able to hit you regardless most of the time.

 

[TTTTTsd]

i think that's what he was implying : p it's just really hard to di in such a way that ganon can't react and get something out of it. (unless that's also what you were saying and i'm just taking your response too seriously : O )

yeah this is what I meant. I know there are ways to DI properly from it to avoid MAX punishment but overall I'm pretty sure like 90% if not more of the time Ganon gets at the very least a respectable followup from D-Throw. It's such a god damn good throw. And to think it's LITERALLY just Falcon's but with the direction they bounce in altered slightly and some other small value changes (I love how such little things snowball into a huge thing, god bless Melee's clones)