Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Shaya]

Marth, Lucina, Pits and Meta Knight all have sword trails that start the frame before the hitbox.
In some of meta knight's cases it's to cover the fact that he only has really short durations (HIS UP AIR IS ONE FRAME) and that the hitbox travels between two points within that single frame; so in MK's case here it kinda makes sense - there is still hitboxes appearing around these slashes.

However in Marth's case, it's particularly awful, none of these moving hitboxes; we're not pushing 4 frames of hitboxes into 3 but giving 4 frames of visuals, we're just removing an entire area where people would expect hitboxes to exist.

Meh.

 

[bc1910]

Guys, just popped in to say I think I'm gonna pick up Marth as my secondary. Sheik is getting so boring, and Marth seems like a good fit for me.

I'm sure this is better suited to the Q&A thread but I just wanted to ask a quick question about his jab confirms and the different things he can do to different fall speeds. Am I safe with jab > Utilt on everyone, or is it only fast fallers that need to worry about that?

Any tips for a beginner Sm4sh Marth?

 

[Shaya]

Up tilt is good because it's 6 frames. Dtilt is what you do on the faster fallers at a certain point, then you're looking at up tilt.
Jab 1 again is also very good obviously (fastest thing we can do).

 

[Vipermoon]

Now look, I'm just wandering around, and I imagine I've gotten on your bad side in the past... But here's my two cents.

Marth has a ton of moves that don't remotely match the animation, correct? Jab I think was the big one, maybe not.

Pit has the same issues as well on many moves. Most notably on his Ftilt, which both doesn't actually hit on the first frame it would appear to and the whole top sword might as well not exist. You'd think it's some ***** last-second nerf, but you should also know this is one of Pit's most notably rehauled normals. The old animation matched the new attack better then the new animation, honestly. I could explain this further, but it's pretty clear they could of switched out for the old animation whenever they wanted.

You know why they didn't? Because it looks cool, and making it 1:1 could cause balance issues, balanced to the animation or not. The opposite is also true. Captain Falcon needs his crazy Fsmash to blow through stuff and hit people hard where he otherwise couldn't. And it even applies to other things, such as Mewtwo's cannon weight vs. Pikachu's, Samus's clunky floatyness, or Yoshi's unique egg shield.

Some characters have had moves made to match better... Some. Some don't match as well, and others that were corrected had the animation tweaked and not the hitboxes. Matching up Captain Falcon's Fsmash animation would be ridiculous, don't you think?

Point is that every character is complete. From Shiek to Samus, Nintendo's given us what they consider to be complete and slowly have been inching it closer to perfection. They're not going to "complete" Marth or Pit or Pika or Mewtwo or Captain Falcon because they were never incomplete to begin with. This is how the game is.

Pit has a couple of pretty bad ones too actually. There are two that come to mind.

His Usmash animation suggests that it has almost no range in the beginning and all the range in the end. The exact opposite is true. The back hit of Pit's Usmash will go right through literally any hurtbox, even tall ones. There's simply nothing there.

Pit's Nair can go right through a character's face (and almost half of their body) and still not hit.

I don't know why this happened to most characters. If they didn't want hitboxes in certain places they could have made a different animation in the first place and still made it look cool. I won't call this kind of thing "complete." My definition of complete isn't that.

 

[ben1707]

Guys, have any of Marth's MUs been hurt/benefited from this patch? I can only notice vs Ike being worse, but I'm probably wrong on that.

 

[LancerStaff]

However in Marth's case... we're just removing an entire area where people would expect hitboxes to exist.

Pit has a couple of pretty bad ones too actually. There are two that come to mind.

His Usmash animation suggests that it has almost no range in the beginning and all the range in the end. The exact opposite is true. The back hit of Pit's Usmash will go right through literally any hurtbox, even tall ones. There's simply nothing there.

Pit's Nair can go right through a character's face (and almost half of their body) and still not hit.

I don't know why this happened to most characters. If they didn't want hitboxes in certain places they could have made a different animation in the first place and still made it look cool. I won't call this kind of this "complete." My definition of complete isn't that.

With Pit's Ftilt it's both missing hitboxes and doesn't actually start the frame you'd expect. The swords glow on like frame six when the hitbox doesn't appear until ten, and I'm completely serious when I say the top blade might as well not exist. There's only one hitbox attached to the move. There's no hitboxes at all above the middle of Pit's Ftilt.

On top of what's been mentioned already, Pit's Jab 1, Fsmash and Dair all have lacking hitboxes, much like Marth. Considering Dair is our strongest combo tool, having it completely whiff when rising up to hit an opponent and only having two frames on either side where it's safe on hit (on a grounded opponent) and only one optimal comboing hit pretty severely limits it's effectiveness.

It's useless to ask for "more complete" hitboxes. Nobody is going to get them.

 

[Vipermoon]

It's called the Ike Treatment and it could happen again. But yes, they will never finish every character.

 

[ben1707]

I feel like I'm talking to a wall

 

[Shaya]

I think the answer is "we don't know".

 

[FallenHero]

ben1707 I don't really know.

 

[Locuan]

As the others have said, the patch has only been out for a few days. It'll take a while to figure changes in match-ups.

 

[ben1707]

Thank you for answering, and I'm very sorry for rambling.

 

[FallenHero]

That was not really rambling it was a legit question that we just don't know the answer to yet. Honestly I ramble a lot about off topic things here because I don't have any place to talk about it, so I just kind of come here and say it in a post that half has to do with Marth and half doesn't.

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys, I set up the following thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/community-project-marth-and-lucinas-ledge-traps.419666/

The idea, as with the match-up thread @A_Kae set up, is so that we can all work together in figuring out what to do in different scenarios to advance Marth's gameplay. In this case, ledge traps. It'd be great if we can get that going as it is a topic that is important for both trapping opponents and evading opponents traps. I hope you will all participate in this.

I also may or may not have gotten the idea to do the thread because I suck at ledge situations...

 

[Vipermoon]

Hey guys... this may be the sad truth. Regardless, I will NOT argue about this. It is my opinion.

http://smashboards.com/threads/viab...ive-impressions.410551/page-284#post-20258309

 

[Shaya]

Upper Mid was definitely a bit of a pipe dream, I'm sure I didn't really hold onto it for any period of time.
I don't really care much though; spacing tipper fair and dtilt is probably his main focus again. If you expected winning tournaments and every match being hype with 100,000 hits on youtube, you came for the wrong guy.

Also I don't think people can shield drop between dancing blade hits now. Down-B final on a shield may actually be a real thing.
Assuming brawl-ish data, 3rd to 4th hit probably would be, but 2nd to 3rd is no longer a thing... so even more ability to pressure with the move.

Like, DB1 in the air is probably not wifi-fraud tier as much anymore either.

Marth's play style in this game is a lot closer related to ZSS than I expected; don't do rising aerials, play around people respecting your jump or getting in the way of people trying to hit your jump. Set up a trap and just don't ever let people escape. Get a landing sour aerial and let sane amounts of damage and positional advantage come in for you.
That's Marth. It's pretty okay.

 

[Vipermoon]

Hmm. I don't know if not being able to shield drop dancing blade is a good thing (you don't usually want them to stay in shield) especially DB4 down which is extremely punishable in Smash 4. However, then maybe they can't roll OoS which is good.

Even so, being stuck in shield against any dancing blade and the DB4 multi-hit doesn't mathematically make sense. There are 6 frames between each multihit IIRC and even more between the rest of DB.

Marth's play style in this game is a lot closer related to ZSS than I expected; don't do rising aerials, play around people respecting your jump or getting in the way of people trying to hit your jump. Set up a trap and just don't ever let people escape. Get a landing sour aerial and let sane amounts of damage and positional advantage come in for you.
That's Marth. It's pretty okay.

That's actually the thing. I played A LOT of friendlies at TBH and some of the advice/feedback I got against really good players playing really good characters was that often when I jumped it was an invitation to run towards me with a shield/dash attack/something fast. That was last patch but it's basically the same idea.

Also, LancerStaff , I played a lot of games with Pink Fresh and I now see that the MU is 55-60 in Pit's favor (I thought it was maybe even). This is almost SOLEY because of Pit's dash attack.

 

[Shaya]

3 shield stun frame gains.
DB4's a 6 frame loop with 2 frames of hitboxes. So only chars with 2 frame spot dodges can do as such, but spot dodging db down4 wouldn't be a wise choice.

Not sure if in between hits are guaranteed earlier, but I trust how annoying it is to deal with against a level 9 CPU =), I'm just respecting it using it at the moment if it strikes my shield.

 

[Halfminded]

What's the stance on the scenario where Marth and opponent are in shield with their backs toward each other?


Btw offtopic: Shaya , how's GJ-bu? I see I have it on my backlist of series to watch

 

[DariusM27]

What's the stance on the scenario where Marth and opponent are in shield with their backs toward each other?


Btw offtopic: Shaya , how's GJ-bu? I see I have it on my backlist of series to watch

Backair. Sh airdodge to nair 1. Run. Something like that.

 

[Halfminded]

Backair. Sh airdodge to nair 1. Run. Something like that.

Well I meant how you feel about being in that situation (like? dislike?). I feel he covers a decent amount of possibilites.

 

[Shaya]

It's one of my eternal favourites I'd say. Actually sad it ended.

 

[Halfminded]

Guess I'll bump that one up the list then.

 

[Shaya]

It's still only a moe/comedy/slice of life show. But it's been the best I've seen =)

 

[FallenHero]

Marth has a lot of combos and even inescapable kill combos with his up air, the problem is that landing a SH up air in the neutral is not exactly easy to do at all. Maybe you can get it to hit with a ton of empty SHs, but even then your opponent might notice you are getting close to them when you try to do the up air on them.

 

[Rashyboy05]

So could anyone tell any real advantages on both sides between Marth and Roy? Between the two, which one has a better neutral? Or which aerials are safer on shield among the two?

 

[Vipermoon]

Found out on FG that double jump shield breaker from the ledge even with a good amount of charge won't usually break shields anymore. You could probably break a full shield if you charge until the very last moment you're able to charge before going back under the ledge but at that point only an idiot will stay in shield.

 

[Reizilla]

Yeah... I didn't think 5 shield damage was a big deal at first, but I feel like I've hit at least 20 shields since the patch and only broken one. All the others have just a tiny bit remaining :/

 

[Vipermoon]

Exactly. I'll even be happy if just the tipper had better shield damage.

 

[LancerStaff]

Also, LancerStaff , I played a lot of games with Pink Fresh and I now see that the MU is 55-60 in Pit's favor (I thought it was maybe even). This is almost SOLEY because of Pit's dash attack.

Told you that Pit's dash attack was good. Hitbox may be bigger then it appears... Been slacking off on testing the normal stuff because of the shieldstun changes. Still not sure about Fsmash, but haven't had much time to think about it either.

Any idea if the match was recorded?

 

[Vipermoon]

Told you that Pit's dash attack was good. Hitbox may be bigger then it appears... Been slacking off on testing the normal stuff because of the shieldstun changes. Still not sure about Fsmash, but haven't had much time to think about it either.

Any idea if the match was recorded?

No you generally couldn't do friendlies on stream because the stream was usually busy. I mean I knew it was good but against Marth it's absolutely devastating. Anytime Marth lands or jumps you can basically dash attack him. It was similar when it was Pink Fresh vs Mr. E (friendlies). It's a similar or even worse situation when it's Marth vs Fox or MK because those dash attacks are just stupid fast and actually start deadly combos unlike Pit's.

Edit: And Pit's does 11% like WTF kind of damage is that!?

 

[LancerStaff]

No you generally couldn't do friendlies on stream because the stream was usually busy. I mean I knew it was good but against Marth it's absolutely devastating. Anytime Marth lands or jumps you can basically dash attack him. It was similar when it was Pink Fresh vs Mr. E (friendlies). It's a similar or even worse situation when it's Marth vs Fox or MK because those dash attacks are just stupid fast and actually start deadly combos unlike Pit's.

Edit: And Pit's does 11% like WTF kind of damage is that!?

Hehe, now you know why it's not much of a combo starter. You can get stuff off at lower percents though, sometimes even Smashes.

If it did combo into stuff like Bair at KO%s though... Well, top eight of Big House probably would of had one or two Pits. And he would of gotten nerfed with Luigi.

 

[Vipermoon]

It has been tested and proved while we were trying to get the exact shield HP number that Shield Breaker's additional shield damage doesn't rise gradually while charging. We assumed this happened because of how little charge was needed to break a shield. It turns out it needed little charge only because total shield HP was always much lower than we thought.

Conclusion: Shield Breaker always did/does +30/+25 HP + damage to shields unless fully charged. The only thing changing during charging is damage of the attack. Because SB is unreactable only without charge this makes the move useless for breaking shields. It's a kill move. Why did I use the word useless? Against a full shield, mathematically, you need a fully charged or very nearly fully charged SB to break a shield. Does that sound useful? Only a fool will let that hit them.

We should technically be getting SB breaks as often as it happened in Brawl and Melee (but it will still happen more often than that because no one uses the move in those games).

 

[Halfminded]

I don't know how to feel about ftilt granting me more reliable followups on BF platforms than fsmash.

 

[Halfminded]

Bleh, mobile flub. Ignore

 

[HFlash]

Umm... shouldn't a tilt have more follow ups than a smash?

 

[Vipermoon]

Hey meant it's easier to hit them with Ftilt (and even most of that sword trail goes right through them).

 

[HFlash]

It does seem less likely to hit those "over the head" tippers with fsmash compared to brawl (below an opponent who is on BF platforms). I'm guessing this is due to fsmash being one of those moves to have the range nerfed from brawl?

 

[Vipermoon]

It did get a range nerf horizontally. Idk about vertical but I remember BF platform Fsmashes in Brawl to be just as difficult/almost as difficult. The platform heights could be different too (sometimes I feel like Smash 4's is lower).

None of this would be a problem if Fsmash matched the sword trail.

 

[Langston777]

if you can bait an AD into a BF platform it feels a lot more consistent. probably something to do with the landing animation's hurtbox covering more of the platform. just something to keep in mind.