Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[A_Kae]

AceTechHD Marth needs either a better DB or some throw combos before he needs range changes on his fsmash. He got some range buffs on other moves to compensate. Here's Shaya's post on it:



Note: If anyone can tell me how to get the link for the specific post as opposed to having to quote the whole thing, I'd appreciate that .

Click on the post number at the bottom of the post (just above the like/reply buttons) and copy the link that pops up.

Here's the link to that post: http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-data.379064/#post-18062624

 

[HFlash]

Marth is so close to being a high tier, if he isn't one by next year I am going to be disappointed.

It doesn't matter how many buffs Marth gets, if there isn't anyone to represent him, he will never be considered more than a hypothetical "high tier" character. As Gandhi once said, "Be the change you want to see in the world." So follow Ryuga's footsteps in Rebirth V (streamed today) and show than a dedicated "low tier"(in this case Ike) can keep the likes of Zero's Shiek.

A_Kae Thanks! Will do!

 

[AceTechHD]

AceTechHD Marth needs either a better DB or some throw combos before he needs range changes on his fsmash. He got some range buffs on other moves to compensate. Here's Shaya's post on it:



Note: If anyone can tell me how to get the link for the specific post as opposed to having to quote the whole thing, I'd appreciate that .

I see but are we comparing other characters changes as well because I'm sure other returning characters have received more range since brawl. Not to mention some of the new characters ranges such as Duck Hunt, Ryu and Greninja seem to be very close if not longer than Marth's current range.

 

[FallenHero]

It doesn't matter how many buffs Marth gets, if there isn't anyone to represent him, he will never be considered more than a hypothetical "high tier" character. As Gandhi once said, "Be the change you want to see in the world." So follow Ryuga's footsteps in Rebirth V (streamed today) and show than a dedicated "low tier"(in this case Ike) can keep the likes of Zero's Shiek.

A_Kae Thanks! Will do!

Well I do get to practice with a friend who is a Lucas and Ike main who is insanely good at the game, the problem is that I don't get much out of practicing with him, because I find it very difficult to get in good damage with Marth thanks to his horrible throws and he is almost frame perfect with his shielding when I try to go for an attack like up air or jab that can start combos. He told me I need to implement empty SH a lot more, so next time we hang out I will make sure to do that. I'm not even joking when I say this, me and him both believe he can take down ZeRo, the problem is we don't really have much of a way to prove that. I might sound crazy, but I think he is a better player than Esam, Nairo, and ZeRo.

 

[HFlash]

Tbh (don't take this the wrong way) I am pretty sure that if your friend is consistently beating you, he is probably the better player (or at least, the more cognitive player, and has figured out your game plan). Nothing to be ashamed of, one of my main training partners is smarter about the game than me, but I make it even somehow with a better over all punish game. The best thing I can tell you is either replay your videos, watch the habits of your opponents and yours, and what it is he is doing to punish your habits. Even better, submit videos of you guys playing and have others critique it. Everyone hates criticism, but it's the only way to improve (God knows I'm farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr from national level good). Oh and

I might sound crazy, but I think he is a better player than Esam, Nairo, and ZeRo.

I've actually played friendlies with Esam and trust me, unless you are vastly superior to me, you will get bodied (and not have intimate Pika knowledge which at the time playing him, I had absolutely none of). To be fair, I didn't even know who Esam was, and I was in for a rude awakening.

 

[FallenHero]

Tbh (don't take this the wrong way) I am pretty sure that if your friend is consistently beating you, he is probably the better player (or at least, the more cognitive player, and has figured out your game plan). Nothing to be ashamed of, one of my main training partners is smarter about the game than me, but I make it even somehow with a better over all punish game. The best thing I can tell you is either replay your videos, watch the habits of your opponents and yours, and what it is he is doing to punish your habits. Even better, submit videos of you guys playing and have others critique it. Everyone hates criticism, but it's the only way to improve (God knows I'm farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr from national level good). Oh and


I've actually played friendlies with Esam and trust me, unless you are vastly superior to me, you will get bodied (and not have intimate Pika knowledge which at the time playing him, I had absolutely none of). To be fair, I didn't even know who Esam was, and I was in for a rude awakening.

I think I have figured him out for the most part, but the problem is I feel Marth's throws make it difficult to beat him. I can definitely say he is much better at the game than I am, considering he actually owns the game and I don't. I can beat him if I use Falcon or Ryu against him since my playstyle with those two can better deal with him, but I can't really beat him consistently. Actually I should not have said that he is better than Esam, because I think Esam would actually body him with Pikachu, but I honestly would not be surprised if he were to beat Nairo and ZeRo in a set, though I would be extremely proud of him for doing so. Damn, I must sound so dumb right now, but maybe I need to play against one of the 3 best players myself to see if he could take them on.

 

[Shaya]

Not trying to offend but....
You're out of your mind.

Not sure how to explain why without sounding condescending... :|
I honestly believed I could have a shot against people worse than M2K before my first time going big during Brawl. I was already dominating people at tournaments at home. But I was naive.

Instead of assuming the most positive range of things when looking to evaluate something you have no outer experience with (neither does he?), you should also consider the idea that someone who can 3 stock you can get 3 stocked, and so on and so forth. No player since mid melee has ever come out of no where in this game, it takes years.

Like... if you think ESAM can body him (????) then I can assure you so can many other good players. Your ability to comprehend player skill is very likely off whack by several magnitudes.

Maybe this will put things into perspective.
IF your friend was good enough to beat ZeRo and Nairo in Smash4 right now, I'd be questioning why he goes to school.
And I'm sure you would've read from me before about how Smash is just a grand hobby and you should stay in school, don't skip classes to play smash or something similarly silly.
You only get one opportunity to shape your brain to be varied and skillful; and the brain wants nothing more than to be lazy and will lie to you or willingly take shortcuts forever, you're more likely to believe it as a teenager. School is way more important than Smash, but my assertion still stands..

So if your friend is that good, they are foregoing making hundreds of dollars a weekend into likely super smash esports stardom (sponsorships, followings, etc) as a 15 year old kid with no relation to the smash community coming out of no where to crush two of the strongest and most consistent Smash4 players we have seen thus far, miles ahead of the rest of the top level player cohort by results significantly.

 

[HFlash]

Dam... way to lay it down thick.

Edit: Just to add my tidbit in experience, I was pretty good at Brawl, like regional decent back in 2010, 2011 or so, but I was really out of touch with the Smash competitive scene (I played it more for fun than anything). I knew a friend that happened to be highschool friends with MVD and I played an after noon with MVD. At the time, I was furious that I consistently could only take off like a stock and a half off of MVD. Maybe he was toying with me, maybe he was genuinely taking me on. Regardless, in a tournament set, despite being a pretty decent player, MVD would have always taken a tournament set off of me or at worse make it 3-1. Unless I leveled up significantly from then, I would never have a chance at taking a top level player like MVD. Tbh, looking at the Smash rankings, and seeing MVD so high, makes me feel good that I could take a stock off of him consistently while having real life obligations like making it to Med School. This game is a great hobby, and is alot deeper than it looks from the outside, but unless you put your absolute 100% into the game, purely blood, sweat and tears, you will never have a shot of taking a tournament anything off of these top players. Don't be discouraged by what you have been told, but just realize that you are trying to compare yourself to mount Rushmore when you haven't yet raised a pebble in tournament results.
Note: Didn't mean to ramble on so much.

 

[FallenHero]

Not trying to offend but....
You're out of your mind.

Not sure how to explain why without sounding condescending... :|
I honestly believed I could have a shot against people worse than M2K before my first time going big during Brawl. I was already dominating people at tournaments at home. But I was naive.

Instead of assuming the most positive range of things when looking to evaluate something you have no outer experience with (neither does he?), you should also consider the idea that someone who can 3 stock you can get 3 stocked, and so on and so forth. No player since mid melee has ever come out of no where in this game, it takes years.

Like... if you think ESAM can body him (????) then I can assure you so can many other good players. Your ability to comprehend player skill is very likely off whack by several magnitudes.

Maybe this will put things into perspective.
IF your friend was good enough to beat ZeRo and Nairo in Smash4 right now, I'd be questioning why he goes to school.
And I'm sure you would've read from me before about how Smash is just a grand hobby and you should stay in school, don't skip classes to play smash or some ****, you only ever get one opportunity to shape your brain to be varied and skillful; and the brain wants to be lazy and will lie to you forever, but you're more likely to believe it as a teenager; however it's a huge mistake.

So if your friend is that good, they are foregoing making hundreds of dollars a weekend into likely super smash twitter stardom as a 15 year old kid with no relation to the smash community coming out of no where to crush two of the strongest and most consistent Smash4 players we have seen thus far, miles ahead of the rest of the top level player cohort by results significantly.

You are probably right, it probably comes from me being able to crush a lot of players without trying when I feel like I can beat them, but then he is able to completely crush me at least when I play Marth.

I think this is a good representation of what was going down in my brain lol

Dam... way to lay it down thick.

Nah man I think he is right I am not really bothered since I am kind of the type to lay it down a bit more harshly and not even apologize in advance or after most of the time.

 

[Shaya]

It's not like it's impossible, and that type of feeling where you go "I'm the best and I'm going to win" is what catalyzed me to where I am now.
BUT "reality shock" had it's negatives results; I felt that there was no way for me to get better as a player back home in Australia because not enough people were out there trying to be "the best". It made me stop "caring" about the game for years until I got to the thought process "I only care about getting better".

If you set your sights too high and you didn't come close to expectations it can be quite the disaster for one's ego/esteem.
"I'm going to win" is definitely better for someone going to a tournament than "I expect to lose, hope I don't get 3 stocked a dozen times", but they're still both poor ideologies.

 

[FallenHero]

It's not like it's impossible, and that type of feeling where you go "I'm the best and I'm going to win" is what catalyzed me to where I am now.
BUT "reality shock" had it's negatives results; I felt that there was no way for me to get better as a player back home in Australia because not enough people were out there trying to be "the best". It made me stop "caring" about the game for years until I got to the thought process "I only care about getting better".

If you set your sights too high and you didn't come close to expectations it can be quite the disaster for one's ego/esteem.
"I'm going to win" is definitely better for someone going to a tournament than "I expect to lose, hope I don't get 3 stocked a dozen times", but they're still both poor ideologies.

Yeah we want to go play in tournaments, but here in NYC all we really have is Nebulous Gaming and in the Bronx it is a barren wasteland for competitive smash. I look forward to when we can travel on our own to play in tournaments in the city.

 

[Shaya]

If you engage the local community you may find avenues for getting rides/safety/etc.

 

[MVD]

Dam... way to lay it down thick.

Edit: Just to add my tidbit in experience, I was pretty good at Brawl, like regional decent back in 2010, 2011 or so, but I was really out of touch with the Smash competitive scene (I played it more for fun than anything). I knew a friend that happened to be highschool friends with MVD and I played an after noon with MVD. At the time, I was furious that I consistently could only take off like a stock and a half off of MVD. Maybe he was toying with me, maybe he was genuinely taking me on. Regardless, in a tournament set, despite being a pretty decent player, MVD would have always taken a tournament set off of me or at worse make it 3-1. Unless I leveled up significantly from then, I would never have a chance at taking a top level player like MVD. Tbh, looking at the Smash rankings, and seeing MVD so high, makes me feel good that I could take a stock off of him consistently while having real life obligations like making it to Med School. This game is a great hobby, and is alot deeper than it looks from the outside, but unless you put your absolute 100% into the game, purely blood, sweat and tears, you will never have a shot of taking a tournament anything off of these top players. Don't be discouraged by what you have been told, but just realize that you are trying to compare yourself to mount Rushmore when you haven't yet raised a pebble in tournament results.
Note: Didn't mean to ramble on so much.

Uhhh whats your name?

Also, I live a pretty busy life. Work 6 days a week and have two jobs outside of smash, so the whole dedicating 100% isnt true for everyone

 

[ben1707]

Hello guys! Today was the first time I ever played a really good player, and it made me notice how much of a scrub I actually am (maybe because I don't have people to practice with, no johns). So this might be a little unrelated to Marth, but do you have any tips so that I can make my game better in general? (I'm mostly having trouble with my fundamentals though). I know it seems broad as all living crap, but I REALLY just want to get better.
Also, if anyone would be kind enough, I would really appreciate it if someone would post their NNID so that I can have someone to practice/play friendlies with (I REALLY need to stop "practicing" with computers. They're terrible at everything). Sorry from all the rambling, It kinda got over my head. :D

 

[HFlash]

So I finally have time to start labbing and actually working on spacing and AT's on my Marth and I gotta say I feel pretty scrubby. Fox trotting and trot cancelling is pretty straight forward. For w.e reason, I can't seem to get B reversing Shield Breaker. I seem to either just get the turnaround SB if I do the forward back forward input on the control stick, and if I do it any faster, I keep getting DB. A quick video showing how the proper wavebounced/b reversed SB would be really appreciated. (That or tips that helped you get it down).
Note: I already looked at My Smash Corner's video on it. Doesn't help and I'm getting

 

[ben1707]

So I finally have time to start labbing and actually working on spacing and AT's on my Marth and I gotta say I feel pretty scrubby. Fox trotting and trot cancelling is pretty straight forward. For w.e reason, I can't seem to get B reversing Shield Breaker. I seem to either just get the turnaround SB if I do the forward back forward input on the control stick, and if I do it any faster, I keep getting DB. A quick video showing how the proper wavebounced/b reversed SB would be really appreciated. (That or tips that helped you get it down).
Note: I already looked at My Smash Corner's video on it. Doesn't help and I'm getting

To get B-Reversing any move, what you do is you gain forwards momentum in any direction, then jump, then do the input for the move you want to B-Reverse and SOME FRAMES LATER you press the opposite direction that you imputed first. Buttons sequence is

It's kinda heavy to start doing it (especially with side specials), but once you get it down, just lab it for some hours, and then it becomes muscle memory.
A wave bounce, in the other hand, needs you to gain momentum in either direction>jump>hit the opposite direction>special move input>the opposite direction to the one you just imputed. Buttons sequence would
be
B Reversing SB is (usually (in my experience)) almost never useful in neutral or follow ups, but it's rather a "surprise" to people that are shielding while you're landing, and Wave Bounced SB is almost exclusively used for either spacies or if you're one of those people who like to use SB as horizontal recovery, so don't get too worried about it .

Edit: added the button inputs.

 

[Vipermoon]

Put the Launch Rate at 0.9x and try Dthrow and Fthrow. They are soooooo sexy! I want throw combos now. Those exact throws.

Edit: Dthrow into Fsmash is super cool

 

[Ako.]

Is it wrong to think Roy is a better character than Marth? Been playing with him for a while, and it so much easier to rack up dmg and get kills with him. Thinking of learning him and use him as a back up.

 

[Shaya]

Roy has higher tuned numbers than Marth does, although functionality/option diversity wise, Marth comes out ahead (imo).
If you're succeeding with Roy, just use Roy I'd say. Wait until you find complications and struggles and ponder whether Marth can/would do better (he oft can) in that particular match up.

Roy's better initial walk, much faster dash speed, rocket aerial mobility and a functioning combo throw (fthrow) means to me, for the most part, that if Roy has control of the game, he's going to be pumping out damage and wins. But if the opponent's character can slow down the pacing of the game for whatever reason (it's not just top tiers), Roy starts to fall apart and struggle capitalizing from my experiences thus far.
Roy IMO gets destroyed by Rosalina, while Marth by most people's opinions has a solid advantage. Marth struggles significantly against Luigi, but Roy due to his mobility and higher damage values can more easily keep Luigi out and more readily get in if there's a hole in Luigi's zoning.

If you're thinking about the big "winners" Marth has over Roy, you're thinking: Up Air (higher damage, more safe, better follow ups, etc), Shieldbreaker (less safe than flare blade but more range and heavy reward), Neutral Air spacing/zoning (it's safer, has more range, marth's floatiness exemplifies you weaving to wall approaches) and off stage pressure/gimping (Roy can but it's a 1-trick pony, Marth can go underneath stage height + can recover better).

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah that's a great statement about Roy. If you can manage to slow down his gameplay (which Marth specializes in) then you can beat him.

 

[Reizilla]

Why does Marth lose to Luigi? He's my best character against the local Luigi, what is he not doing properly?

 

[ReturningFall]

So I finally have time to start labbing and actually working on spacing and AT's on my Marth and I gotta say I feel pretty scrubby. Fox trotting and trot cancelling is pretty straight forward. For w.e reason, I can't seem to get B reversing Shield Breaker. I seem to either just get the turnaround SB if I do the forward back forward input on the control stick, and if I do it any faster, I keep getting DB. A quick video showing how the proper wavebounced/b reversed SB would be really appreciated. (That or tips that helped you get it down).
Note: I already looked at My Smash Corner's video on it. Doesn't help and I'm getting

To get B-Reversing any move, what you do is you gain forwards momentum in any direction, then jump, then do the input for the move you want to B-Reverse and SOME FRAMES LATER you press the opposite direction that you imputed first. Buttons sequence is

It's kinda heavy to start doing it (especially with side specials), but once you get it down, just lab it for some hours, and then it becomes muscle memory.
A wave bounce, in the other hand, needs you to gain momentum in either direction>jump>hit the opposite direction>special move input>the opposite direction to the one you just imputed. Buttons sequence would
be
B Reversing SB is (usually (in my experience)) almost never useful in neutral or follow ups, but it's rather a "surprise" to people that are shielding while you're landing, and Wave Bounced SB is almost exclusively used for either spacies or if you're one of those people who like to use SB as horizontal recovery, so don't get too worried about it .

Edit: added the button inputs.

It's worth noting if you do wavebounce in this way it's really hard (you have to be essentially frame perfect as you transition directions if I remember). If you assign C stick to attack, you can (gently?) hold the c-stick in the reverse direction and then do a regular b reverse in the opposite direction to wavebounce. You don't need to give up your C-stick quite like My smash corner says...That said, I've never actually pulled off a consistent wavebounce so you probably shouldn't quote me on that.

A lot of the guys who are heavy B-reversers/wave bouncers like assigning special to a shoulder button (often R). Or jump. Or both.

I do have a very consistent b-reverse and can pull it off consistently in both on and offline matches. Took me many months to get to that point and I can say from experience I don't think Marth benefits from it that much.

In theory and in practice, I find turnaround or B-reverse up-B far more useful. It lets you go slightly deeper because you get the extra little forward motion to the ledge. It also allows a better punish OOS if you've been crossed up. For that, you just have to get used to rolling the stick fast enough from up to the direction you want to face...but it sounds like you've got this one already.

I do like using neutral B-reverse to punish opponents who do stupid things when I'm above them (like throw smash attacks as I cross them up). It's also a reasonable way to fake people out as you run away and transition from defense to offense. But if DB reaches, it's a better punish anyway.

Also, I'm sure most of you guys know this, but for anyone reading this thread later, there is no need to jump to b reverse or wavebounce. Just do the B->stick motion and you're good. You can do it offstage, out of a slide (meaning, you'll need to quit holding forward to run if you want the neutral B) or as a (risky) landing fakeout.

 

[Shaya]

Why does Marth lose to Luigi? He's my best character against the local Luigi, what is he not doing properly?

By never ever committing first. He has no reason to. One fireball, into another fireball, into another fireball, into another fireball, is something Marth can't reliably get through at all; he is relying on READING Luigi grabbing, either a whiff (which is a struggle to punish) or throwing out something that knocks him away; but if he were to fireball again instead and we choose something for beating the dash grab and get hit by that fireball, we're likely to get dash grabbed. He can also dash to shield which with fireballs covering things, none of our rising aerials being safe (they really really are most definitely not against Luigi) it's just always a 1:2 at best for Marth in neutral and Luigi completely destroys him in disadvantage state harder than we do to him.

Roy's better damage values on close range hits (+better safety on long range hits) negates his dash to shield bar power shield, tipper down tilt doesn't produce a disgusting amount of clank lag that gives luigi a guaranteed dash grab (easily; it actually gives him a running Up Smash or Fsmash at point blank) allowing him a more reliable walk approach (jab is faster end lag than ours too and can handle fireballs plus dash to shield to some extent), and rocket landing fair/nair at mid range distances (further away than his dash grab) are fast enough to capitalize on relative reaction to fireballs or him moving. Roy's falling speed can mess with down throw follow ups as well, and having more control from both down throw and forward throw generally allows him to keep Luigi in a poor position for longer than Marth can in a way that's basically guaranteed follow ups.

 

[Halfminded]

rocket landing

I don't believe I've heard that term before, but maybe I know what it is and just not the name.
Care to explain?

 

[Vipermoon]

I think he means Roy's crazy good air speed.

Shaya Do we know Roy's air acceleration, friction, and gravity? I can't find them anywhere.

 

[FallenHero]

I just realize why my Marth sucks: I always commit first. I'm going to have to try and remember that you can't really commit in this game especially with Marth.

 

[PK Gaming]

Roy has higher tuned numbers than Marth does, although functionality/option diversity wise, Marth comes out ahead (imo).
If you're succeeding with Roy, just use Roy I'd say. Wait until you find complications and struggles and ponder whether Marth can/would do better (he oft can) in that particular match up.

Roy's better initial walk, much faster dash speed, rocket aerial mobility and a functioning combo throw (fthrow) means to me, for the most part, that if Roy has control of the game, he's going to be pumping out damage and wins. But if the opponent's character can slow down the pacing of the game for whatever reason (it's not just top tiers), Roy starts to fall apart and struggle capitalizing from my experiences thus far.
Roy IMO gets destroyed by Rosalina, while Marth by most people's opinions has a solid advantage. Marth struggles significantly against Luigi, but Roy due to his mobility and higher damage values can more easily keep Luigi out and more readily get in if there's a hole in Luigi's zoning.

If you're thinking about the big "winners" Marth has over Roy, you're thinking: Up Air (higher damage, more safe, better follow ups, etc), Shieldbreaker (less safe than flare blade but more range and heavy reward), Neutral Air spacing/zoning (it's safer, has more range, marth's floatiness exemplifies you weaving to wall approaches) and off stage pressure/gimping (Roy can but it's a 1-trick pony, Marth can go underneath stage height + can recover better).

Agreed. I don't think Roy is that great of a character in practice; like you mentioned, his advantages don't count for much when an opponent refuses to play his game. He has a mechanic that rewards players for getting in their opponents faces, but he uses a sword and has the accompanying flaws that most sword users have up close (ie: normals outside of jab that are simply too slow for CQC). You get very little reward from playing him the way a sword user ought to be played (ie: spacing normals) and his game plan is fairly one-dimensional. His recovery is also fairly dismal. He loses to rushdown and loses to character who can lame him out.

But the absolute worst thing about Roy is his inability to close out stocks. Mein Gott, does this character struggle when it comes to getting kills. Seriously, his Fsmash might be stupid strong, but good luck landing it outside of hard punishes. He lacks consistent kill set ups, so he's pretty much limited to aerials near the ledge, ftilt near the edge, the incredibly risky blazer oos and a handful of situational combos. This is a character who desperately needs platforms to assist in getting kills.

Even Marth (w/o Tipper) is better at closing out stocks than Roy.

 

[Vipermoon]

I disagree. Roy should have no problem closing out stocks. While hard to hit, Utilt (103kbg, 12%) and Ftilt (100kbg, 12.5%) are safish to throw out and extremely strong. And Blazer OoS isn't that tough to get. His Jab (to reverse Bair), Dthrow (to Blazer), and Fthrow (to dash attack) setup for kills well enough. They aren't that reliable but he has enough of them. Better than a lot of characters at least. Roy has an easier time killing than most characters. He also has good ledge coverage and can use that to take stocks.

But Marth slightly wins in this department for many reasons with the biggest being that his aerials are easier to kill with.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ftilt/tilt are laggy and need to be thrown at point blank KO; they are most certainly not safe moves to throw out. The combos you mentioned are again, situational (and outright ineffective in Dthrow to Blazer's case. That is most certainly not a thing).

Roy might has an easier time killing than most characters (who don't matter) but he is definitely inferior at killing in comparison to most of the characters that do matter. I mean, just watch this match. Ryo's Roy gets Mario to a fairly high %, but is just incapable of landing the kill. He has nothing to throw out, no consistent set ups (the situational combos are predictably, theorycraft). The closet he gets to KOing Mario is down throw to Up B that he admittedly misses, but for the most part this is a character who struggles to finish his plate.

I can't see how Roy could ever possibly be better than Marth (a character who somewhat struggles at KOing himself)

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, I'm not entirely sure he's 1-dimensional.
Forward Tilt is a very solid move though; it's awkward to punish for sure (it's less lag than marth ftilt).
Forward Smash is a power shield punish. Stupendously good one too. He can also pivot fsmash out of a run and unlike Marth won't slide away (it made me realise in fact that I should be practicing the spacing for the way marth slides with his pivot fsmash) which considering his run speed and low height during a dash...
Up-B OoS is also good; realistically only thing holding this one back is just knowledge; if this was Brawl me I'd know exactly what moves blazer isn't an out of shield punish for, the rest is a cinch.

I'm mostly fine with closing out stocks as Roy due to fthrow and following DI with either fair or dash attack. Sour down tilt into dash attack or dash fair exists too.
He is actually more spacing-focused than you'd think given his specs and implicit abilities; his well spaced sour spots are as safe/safer than our sour spots... and they're at maximum range. Forward Air is safer on shield than Marth's and is designed to either be full hopped, rising sh into double jump for comboing or waiting and fast falling. I doubt many Roys yet are using his individual moves optimally.


Also talking about down tilt follow ups, I reminded myself of this just yesterday although it used to be one of my favourite/best set ups in Brawl (I don't know how I did forget but whatever).
AS MARTH; Down tilting someone near a ledge into a run off forward air combos at kill percent... or basically almost any percent. Gah why can't Marth's dtilt be 21 ending again, would've probably made this more obvious.

 

[Vipermoon]

I love Dtilt to Fair. I've never seen it combo on the combo counter but it's not like I specifically tried it to see.

 

[FallenHero]

I love Dtilt to Fair. I've never seen it combo on the combo counter but it's not like I specifically tried it to see.

I've seen aerial DB1 combo into tipper fair, but it is really inconsistent.

 

[Vipermoon]

You can combo SH Fair into DB1 alternatively.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

So I had this ide some time ago http://smashboards.com/threads/why-dont-we-make-sub-forum-wars.417178/#post-20205260 maybe there is something you can do with it.

 

[Locuan]

So I had this ide some time ago http://smashboards.com/threads/why-dont-we-make-sub-forum-wars.417178/#post-20205260 maybe there is something you can do with it.

Sneak Sneaks, your post was moved to our general thread. Make sure you ask questions like these here. Additionally, you should not post the same thread on multiple character boards as it is considered spam.

On another note, I personally like the idea. In fact, I tried to start a similar thing around January within the Lucina boards moving outward. It never caught on. At that point it was mostly focused to the Marcina's. However, depending on how you develop the idea it could be successful.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Sneak Sneaks, your post was moved to our general thread. Make sure you ask questions like these here. Additionally, you should not post the same thread on multiple character boards as it is considered spam.

On another note, I personally like the idea. In fact, I tried to start a similar thing around January within the Lucina boards moving outward. It never caught on. At that point it was mostly focused to the Marcina's. However, depending on how you develop the idea it could be successful.

Actually I will be honest with you, I dont have the influence, I would love to see the war results and replays but I think Im just underpowered, maybe you, an admin, can make this happen?

 

[Locuan]

Actually I will be honest with you, I dont have the influence, I would love to see the war results and replays but I think Im just underpowered, maybe you, an admin, can make this happen?

Develop your idea further, have as much of the idea written down and ready to go and PM me with the info later. I can try and guide you through the right path. Your idea seems very ambitious. It's best to start with something small and move on from there.

 

[PK Gaming]

Hmm

I'm still not convinced, but I trust that you know about Roy than I do, and I don't want to belabor the point further.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm

I'm still not convinced, but I trust that you know about Roy than I do, and I don't want to belabor the point further.

Eh, I'm just wary of any character being truly 1-dimensional; I view this game in a slightly different light lately.

 

[PK Gaming]

Speaking as someone who's been negative to a point where it was affecting my gameplay, I guess that's the right outlook to have, haha