Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Eternal Neo]

There's no reason we can't keep playing Melee.

Then keep playing it? No one's stopping you and from what it sounds like, you won't be the only one still playing melee. There's no reason to act so offended that some people would rather move on to brawl though.

 

[pockyD]

that's a flawed argument because the top chars ALREADY have very little landing lag

do you think it's easier to notice if a marth, sheik, peach, samus, etc isn't l-canceling as opposed to a ganondorf, link, yoshi, or bowser?

in the long run, it will only widen the gap

edit: hot **** i should really use quotes when i reply

but to sum up my argument - if you think ganondorf has a rough time vs sheik now, it will be impossible if you can't l cancel

 

[AKC12]

Wife, in my opinion... You've lost it... And your opinion is so biased towards Melee it's not even funny... SKILL STILL MATTERS NO MATTER WHATS GONE...

NO L CANCEL, NO WAVE DASHING ALL SKILL IS GONE! ROLL SPAMMING GOOD OMFG NO MORE CONTROLLER HAXOR SKILLS!!! OH NO THE PERSON IS FLYING AWAY FROM THE STAGE THIS MEANS NO MORE AUTO DEATH TO THEM! AH NO MORE QUICK RELFEX/MIND MEMORIZATION OF PRECISE TECHS, ITS A NEWB GAME NOW SINCE SKILL W/CONTROLLER IS ALL GONE!

It's not freakin all about skill with the controller, not in this game. You think that's the only way for it to be a good game competitvely, and edge guarding... Mind games is a given and the bulk of it, precise usage of new techs. It's now a true skill to edge guard well. It's a true skill to combo w/the least combo oriented char. Plus the game has only been out for less than a month. Six years from now your statement will most likely rival that of the ones who say the computer is a useless piece of crap. The most skilled with the new game will dominate, that's a fact.

Sure don't like it, but don't call it a piece of crap competitvely, and in a way towards us who think Brawl is better. It shows us, or at least me, what you are...

 

[Wife]

Lol.

Let's all go play Street Fighter.

Anyway listen I'm closing the thread and I won't be reading it anymore. But the post was to back up Scar; I'm sure he can take it from here.

Lol I can't believe you said methinks. Clearly the part about getting *** does NOT apply to you, my friend.

Peach outz.

 

[AKC12]

that's a flawed argument because the top chars ALREADY have very little landing lag

do you think it's easier to notice if a marth, sheik, peach, samus, etc isn't l-canceling as opposed to a ganondorf, link, yoshi, or bowser?

in the long run, it will only widen the gap

edit: hot **** i should really use quotes when i reply

but to sum up my argument - if you think ganondorf has a rough time vs sheik now, it will be impossible if you can't l cancel

Difference of opinion. I know of the char. who has lil lag cancel, but at least some of their other moves do, limiting comboing that requires landing. But the new game all in itself IMO will close the tide, at least a little. I'm sure the faster char. will hit TT and take up the majority, but those other char. will win tourney's a lil more often.

 

[Athos]

Eh well I read a majority of the thread (God not all of it, theres too much here) and I generally agree with Scar. As of now, Melee is a superior game because it rewards competitive players.

Part of me really wishes that Brawl was developed by Blizzard Entertainment. Blizzard made the most balanced competitive game of all time, Starcraft; and now it's developing Starcraft 2 in a way that will reward competitive players. Blizzard knows that it can't automate too many processes(Like automatic mining) because pro-korean gamers will complain at the lack of a level of skill. Instead Blizzard is working with korean pro-gamers to make Starcraft 2 even more rewarding to experienced hands than Starcraft is.

I think part of the reason Brawl ended up the way it did because Melee players didn't have their voices heard. Or rather, even if they were heard the Big-Whigs at Nintendo didn't care at about a minority who favored competition. The whole thing is really rather sad, because regardless of what we think, we can't make this game like Melee. No matter how many glitches and "ATs" we search for; this game cannot match the level of depth that Melee provided. In this respect, Scar is absolutely right.

 

[BananaNut]

Im not sure this is entierly related to competitiveness, but I'll bring it up anyway.

Im Melee, you could play the different characters the same and still have a decent win/loss ratio; but in brawl, each character plays differently. You won't be able to play Sonic like Olimar, for example. That fact increases brawl's depth in gameplay. Granted, it hinges the matches more on character choice, not AT's but there are some advanced techs in brawl that I'd like to bring up also.

1)Pivot grabbing: You perform it by running past your opponent, turning around, then tapping the grab button for less lag and a faster grab. From all the pro video's I've seen, it seems like no one has mastered this. From what I see in it's potential, is faking your opponent to think you will try for a running grab, thus forcing them into a back roll, only to find themselves in the cluches of your damage-inflicting hands.

2) Perfect sheilding: Another one from the dojo, if you sheild just as an enemy attack his you, it will cancel ALL lag on your part, opening them up for attack. (Hey, everybody who L cancled! Build this into your relfex-memory! and yes, that includes me.)

While two techs and a character choice don't make up for the many options in melee, I think this does.

EDGEGUARDING!
With the grab box easy to sweetspot on to, characters have an easier time getting onto the ledge. That means that the player guarding the edge must be aggressive, very agressive. While people get better at guarding the edge in general, more people will counter with their character's different moves or maybe an airdodge. When the guarders figure out the spacing on the airdodge, they will try to counter that. And it will all lead up in a spiral of guarding/countering/stalling techniques.

 

[Papapaint]

Okay, I'm seeing a lot of the following:

"I'm not convinced that camping is as viable as strategy as you're making it sound."

And to this, I respond with the following:

Play me on wifi. This is not a challenge, it's not me saying I'm the best at the game by far, it's simply me showing the viability of camping as a tactic. I'll record the match and post it here.

I'm not saying I'll win, or even that I'll do particularly well (I'm a little too twitchy to be a camper), but I will certainly be able to show the viability of camping as a strategy and show how I'm always at an advantage as the defensive player.

If you're up for testing this out, hit me up on AIM at AlmightyPancakeJ

 

[thumbswayup]

well said, wife. all brawl noobs should read his post.

 

[Papapaint]

Im not sure this is entierly related to competitiveness, but I'll bring it up anyway.

Im Melee, you could play the different characters the same and still have a decent win/loss ratio; but in brawl, each character plays differently. You won't be able to play Sonic like Olimar, for example. That fact increases brawl's depth in gameplay.

You could not play the different characters the same. That's just sheer ignorance.

And no, vastly different characters doesn't exactly increase depth on its own, particularly not when there are only a few truly viable characters. Melee's depth isn't exactly hinged on the fact that Marth and Pichu are in the same game...

 

[DRaGZ]

Wife is just going through the grief cycle right now.

1. Denial: The initial stage: "It can't be happening."
2. Anger: "Why me? It's not fair."
3. Bargaining: "Just let me live to see my children graduate."
4. Depression: "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"
5. Acceptance: "It's going to be OK."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kübler-Ross_model

It's all scientifically verifiable!

 

[MajinSweet]

Ok, are you chowder heads ready for the truth? The truth is, Brawl is a child's game, plain and simple. It was made for, and with the sole purpose of satisfying, small children or those who have no intention of putting out more effort than you would to play Jak and Daxter.

So was Melee. Really, is there anyone denying this? Most people agree that Melee's depth was mostly based on mistakes.

The writing is on the wall, and I'm so disappointed that we are as a community planning on moving forward with this game. I could really write a book on the endless shortcomings of Brawl, such as how it has about as much depth as a sandbox, but let me make my point: Brawl was made to ease the pain of persons who suffered in the face of complicated Melee gameplay. I mean, the dude even said it himself he doesnt want to the game to be so competitive. I've had the game since it's Japanese release and it seems abundently clear what the benefits of this game are . . .

This makes no sense, the average person that played Melee for a short time, enjoyed it with friends and single player--they never even knew about the competitive scene. You really think Nintendo was worrying about getting casual sales with Brawl or something? With the amount of hype this game had, with the amount of appeal it had, already has the Smash Brother Name, you could go on forever.

Like to roll a lot? NO PROBLEM!! No big deal friend, you might get hit once, twice at worst. Roll away!

Melee started out the exact same way.

Can't space your upB on the ledge? NO WORRIES!! Feel free to check your cell phone while you play, you won't be punished. The auto-suck on ensures that EVERYONE can get back on the ledge, not just those with talent.

You could say the same thing about Melee where you slide up along the side of the stage with an Up-B, think Mario on Final Destination. In Brawl, you just get stuck and die. And auto ledge grabbing doesn't help against ledge hogging.

Can't train your fingers to WD, L-Cancel, or meteor cancel? DONT' SWEAT IT!! Now no one can, so the division of skill will be much more fair. Finally, thank god!!

Complex controls don't make the game better in anyway, in fact keeping the control simple or at least easy to use, while still have in interesting game is what most developers strive for.

There's some kid down the street who always whoops your *** and then makes fun of you in 7th grade science class? HELP IS HERE!! Because now with Brawl, you can basically
mash your palm against the controller and make great things happen.

Again, this is just silly--Melee was very noob friendly.

**** guy, for that matter, he'll be so busy tripping randomly you can just get him then. Or **** man, after you hit him you'll have a good 12 seconds before he comes back down again so you have plenty of time to plan your next attack. This way there will be no pressure whatsoever during the match.

Actually, tripping may not be random. Many people, myself included have noticed that some players trip much more than others and some don't trip at all really.

That's because in Melee you were forced to make bsplit second decisions, supported by split frame timing and precise finger movements. ON TOP of the mind games which people are flaunting as the upside of Brawl.

Not when the Melee was a month old, it was a slow noob fest. Brawl will get faster too.

If Melee was Fight Club, then Brawl is like, you know when you would wrestle in those ball pits? You could pretend you were Edward Norton, but everything is padded anyway and besides you know your mom is watching from outside anyway just in case.

Except you know, Melee is very noob friendly as well.

Melee still has years left on it. We were just figuring it out. M2k was discovering new things up to the end, and some random kid won the last tournament. There's no reason we can't keep playing Melee.

Go ahead, no one is stopping you. I don't think any pro brawlers care if you keep playing Melee. Some of us are glad to be playing something new and fresh. Why can't you under stand that, and why must you insist on attacking the game for being so noob friendly when Smash has always been like that?

My final argument and then I'll finish:
How on earth are you going to convince a girl that playing smash for a living isn't so stupid? In Melee you could explain the complex mechanics, the sophisticated mental battles, and high level of competition.
How are you going to get any *** at all if you have to explain why you spend your weekends playing Brawl? Just look at it. It's ****ing embarrassing.[/color]

Yeah, you could explain them those mechanics, and mind games YEARS after the game came out. Have you guys really forgotten that when Melee first came out it was a roll spamming mess? I think there is still that youtube video floating around of Azen vs some random guy in green greens with nothing but, roll spamming, throwing items, and link's Up B.

Look this is my point, I'm not trying to sound condescending, or flaunt my opinion but, what did you expect when you first played Brawl? Did you expect to understand every facet of the game from the moment you picked up the controller allowing you to do frame perfect attacks? Did you expect an expansive meta game to explode after a week of play that offered tons of depth? I knew before I even got the game that it would be a noob fest for a while, until people learned to punish certain things--its no different than how Melee started.

 

[MajinSweet]

Pancake, wanna play me then, I'll take your challenge. I'll be able to play in a hour and a half if thats okay.

 

[Fletch]

Ok, are you chowder heads ready for the truth? The truth is, Brawl is a child's game, plain and simple. It was made for, and with the sole purpose of satisfying, small children or those who have no intention of putting out more effort than you would to play Jak and Daxter.

The writing is on the wall, and I'm so disappointed that we are as a community planning on moving forward with this game. I could really write a book on the endless shortcomings of Brawl, such as how it has about as much depth as a sandbox, but let me make my point: Brawl was made to ease the pain of persons who suffered in the face of complicated Melee gameplay. I mean, the dude even said it himself he doesnt want to the game to be so competitive. I've had the game since it's Japanese release and it seems abundently clear what the benefits of this game are . . .

Like to roll a lot? NO PROBLEM!! No big deal friend, you might get hit once, twice at worst. Roll away!

Can't space your upB on the ledge? NO WORRIES!! Feel free to check your cell phone while you play, you won't be punished. The auto-suck on ensures that EVERYONE can get back on the ledge, not just those with talent.

Can't train your fingers to WD, L-Cancel, or meteor cancel? DONT' SWEAT IT!! Now no one can, so the division of skill will be much more fair. Finally, thank god!!

There's some kid down the street who always whoops your *** and then makes fun of you in 7th grade science class? HELP IS HERE!! Because now with Brawl, you can basically mash your palm against the controller and make great things happen.
**** guy, for that matter, he'll be so busy tripping randomly you can just get him then.
Or **** man, after you hit him you'll have a good 12 seconds before he comes back down again so you have plenty of time to plan your next attack. This way there will be no pressure whatsoever during the match.

That's because in Melee you were forced to make bsplit second decisions, supported by split frame timing and precise finger movements. ON TOP of the mind games which people are flaunting as the upside of Brawl.
If Melee was Fight Club, then Brawl is like, you know when you would wrestle in those ball pits? You could pretend you were Edward Norton, but everything is padded anyway and besides you know your mom is watching from outside anyway just in case.

Melee still has years left on it. We were just figuring it out. M2k was discovering new things up to the end, and some random kid won the last tournament. There's no reason we can't keep playing Melee.

My final argument and then I'll finish:
How on earth are you going to convince a girl that playing smash for a living isn't so stupid? In Melee you could explain the complex mechanics, the sophisticated mental battles, and high level of competition.
How are you going to get any *** at all if you have to explain why you spend your weekends playing Brawl? Just look at it. It's ****ing embarrassing.

This is the best post I've ever read. It's a little extreme, but I think the only way to get the point across to the Brawl supporters.

 

[derf]

<3 wife (even if he hates florida)

 

[Zeborg]

Ultimately, the only indication of the competitiveness is results. No more, no less. Will there be consistent victors at tournaments? We'll just have to wait and see. For now, it's mainly speculation.

 

[AKC12]

*sigh* 3-5 years later................................

 

[eyestrain92]

Lol.

Let's all go play Street Fighter.

Anyway listen I'm closing the thread and I won't be reading it anymore. But the post was to back up Scar; I'm sure he can take it from here.

Lol I can't believe you said methinks. Clearly the part about getting *** does NOT apply to you, my friend.

Peach outz.

Use words that don't get blocked by the censor. I need to point out being a vet does not entitle you to being thick and hotheaded. You're the primary example of what we DON'T need competitive players looking like. Calm down.

If we can maintain the cool here, no reason to shut this. We're getting SOME intelligence here.

 

[Papapaint]

Pancake, wanna play me then, I'll take your challenge. I'll be able to play in a hour and a half if thats okay.

I might be playing Halo 3 with some friends around then, but IM me anyway. Until then, I'd love to test this out on someone.

 

[Fletch]

So was Melee. Really, is there anyone denying this? Most people agree that Melee's depth was mostly based on mistakes.

Irrelevant.

This makes no sense, the average person that played Melee for a short time, enjoyed it with friends and single player--they never even knew about the competitive scene. You really think Nintendo was worrying about getting casual sales with Brawl or something? With the amount of hype this game had, with the amount of appeal it had, already has the Smash Brother Name, you could go on forever.

No they obviously weren't, we're just mad they screwed over the competitive players in the process.

Melee started out the exact same way.

Addressed a million times before; we didn't have the community we do now who are looking for things to make this game deeper. We have not found anything close to game-breaking yet.

You could say the same thing about Melee where you slide up along the side of the stage with an Up-B, think Mario on Final Destination. In Brawl, you just get stuck and die. And auto ledge grabbing doesn't help against ledge hogging.

This doesn't make any sense. He's arguing Up+B's require spacing to sweetspot and not incur landing lag; now any character can just Up+B at any time to protect himself. Auto ledge grabbing does help against ledge hogging due to lag time on the ledge induced and ledge hogging in general being nerfed.

Complex controls don't make the game better in anyway, in fact keeping the control simple or at least easy to use, while still have in interesting game is what most developers strive for.

Do not agree with whatsoever; skill between players can be greatly differentiated by more complex controls, but I guess this is a matter of opinion, so whatever you think.

Again, this is just silly--Melee was very noob friendly.

I hope this was a joke.

Actually, tripping may not be random. Many people, myself included have noticed that some players trip much more than others and some don't trip at all really.

Everything we know so far points to it being random. Even if it isn't, pointless "tech" to implement to just cater to randomness.

Not when the Melee was a month old, it was a slow noob fest. Brawl will get faster too.

Hopefully, but we haven't seen any progress yet and have tons of experienced people working on it.

Except you know, Melee is very noob friendly as well.

Again, this better be a joke.

Go ahead, no one is stopping you. I don't think any pro brawlers care if you keep playing Melee. Some of us are glad to be playing something new and fresh. Why can't you under stand that, and why must you insist on attacking the game for being so noob friendly when Smash has always been like that?

Most pros are playing Brawl just because they've been playing Melee for years and are looking for something fresh; it just isn't going to last because there is no depth to the game. We're mad Brawl came out because it's going to split the competitive Melee community and make Smash out to be a simple game.

Yeah, you could explain them those mechanics, and mind games YEARS after the game came out. Have you guys really forgotten that when Melee first came out it was a roll spamming mess? I think there is still that youtube video floating around of Azen vs some random guy in green greens with nothing but, roll spamming, throwing items, and link's Up B.

Again, addressed this point already; we know way more about Smash than before, and have a way larger community working on fixing strategies. Nothing game-breaking has come up yet.

Look this is my point, I'm not trying to sound condescending, or flaunt my opinion but, what did you expect when you first played Brawl? Did you expect to understand every facet of the game from the moment you picked up the controller allowing you to do frame perfect attacks? Did you expect an expansive meta game to explode after a week of play that offered tons of depth? I knew before I even got the game that it would be a noob fest for a while, until people learned to punish certain things--its no different than how Melee started.

I hope you're right, but there is no indication of this being the case. Melee was a "beautiful mistake", and it appears the developers have done everything in their power to cater to the casual crowd this time around. And sadly, the metagame just points to camping being the dominant strategy.

 

[behemoth]

Umm, who was Melee made for? 18-24 year old gamers who spell things with numbers and count moves in frames?

Look, I suppose that I'm in the smallest minority here as a competitive player who is actually going to try to play brawl (though I hope my beloved melee community stays alive!), but I have a bone to pick with a couple points:

First off, why is it a bad thing that it is easier to get back? That just means it's more of a challenge and more rewarding to keep someone off stage! Isn't challenge and reward what games are built on? And I mean competitively too.

That's also a form of punishment I don't see discussed much here.

Second, I will ask this again: Just hypothetically (because I don't think it's true), what if Brawl is deeper than Melee? How long would you honestly think it would take for the community to find out, especially when there are a lot of our brightest minds jumping ship?

Also, **** off wife. Not everyone who enjoys brawl is a noob.

I will finish with this:

Please tell me exactly who you think Melee was made for?.

 

[DRaGZ]

I might be playing Halo 3 with some friends around then, but IM me anyway. Until then, I'd love to test this out on someone.

Hey almightypancake, I'd like to play you as well. Just friendly stuff to try out strats, and I'm always looking for people to play online. My AIM is azooazoo. My BC is in my profile. I probably won't be available until around midnight Pacific Time though.

 

[Papapaint]

Please tell me exactly who you think Melee was made for?.

Everyone, and anyone.

 

[BigRick]

The orange posts made my day...

 

[LavisFiend]

The debate should not exist because the central point of the competitive debate is debating on a thing that is already complete.

The issue I have with this is that you hear constant bellyaching and butthurt over the end result of Brawl, and that everyone believes their word is authentic or god when their word is actually common and overused.

Not a single one of you have anything to say that is authentic. You make constant excuses that you are "just debating" because it supplies cover to what you are actually doing, which is complaining. You are pissed that Brawl did not live up to Melee's standards, and thus, you are griping. Pure, unadulterated griping. That really is all there is to it.

Then you throw a temper tantrum whenever you hear someone tell you to just play Melee. You then retort with "I LIKE THE GAME BUT IT WILL NEVER BE COMPETITIVE LIKE MELEE IS WHAT I SAYIN" which is just another way of saying " I WANT TO GET A RISE OUT OF PEOPLE FOR NO PARTICULAR REASON AND TRY TO PROVE A POINT THAT NO ONE WISHES TO AGREE WITH BECAUSE I AM A DRAMA QUEEN."

Sure people will take sides, it's normal, but it dosen't mean jack that both sides are arguing on either side of a ditch, and that not a single side is smart enough to get their head out of their *** and find a bridge to connect both sides.

People take opinions too seriously. They can't stand to be wrong, because they take everything to the heart. It dosen't help that people continue to poke people by drilling people over and over and over and over with the same watered down "points" and "evidence" to the point a argument emerges.

People will not change their views on something, so why bother trying? Who gives a crap what their views on a videogame's future is? Each and every one of you try to carry your opinion as fact, when really, your opinion is just as subjective as their opinion on your ideas.

What I am getting at is when someone makes the suggestion to just play melee, then JUST GO PLAY MELEE. It is a suggestion made so that you can enjoy a game that you vocalize as you enjoying so much. Quit getting all butthurt and defensive over nothing, and if you like Brawl? Fine, but the fact is that debating over a videogame's future is pointless because none of us can truly say what is going to happen.

In conclusion:

Shut the hell up, to both sides, and play Smash.

 

[LavisFiend]

Ignore this.

 

[LavisFiend]

The debate should not exist because the central point of the competitive debate is debating on a thing that is already complete.

The issue I have with this is that you hear constant bellyaching and butthurt over the end result of Brawl, and that everyone believes their word is authentic or god when their word is actually common and overused.

Not a single one of you have anything to say that is authentic. You make constant excuses that you are "just debating" because it supplies cover to what you are actually doing, which is complaining. You are pissed that Brawl did not live up to Melee's standards, and thus, you are griping. Pure, unadulterated griping. That really is all there is to it.

Then you throw a temper tantrum whenever you hear someone tell you to just play Melee. You then retort with "I LIKE THE GAME BUT IT WILL NEVER BE COMPETITIVE LIKE MELEE IS WHAT I SAYIN" which is just another way of saying " I WANT TO GET A RISE OUT OF PEOPLE FOR NO PARTICULAR REASON AND TRY TO PROVE A POINT THAT NO ONE WISHES TO AGREE WITH BECAUSE I AM A DRAMA QUEEN."

Sure people will take sides, it's normal, but it dosen't mean jack that both sides are arguing on either side of a ditch, and that not a single side is smart enough to get their head out of their *** and find a bridge to connect both sides.

People take opinions too seriously. They can't stand to be wrong, because they take everything to the heart. It dosen't help that people continue to poke people by drilling people over and over and over and over with the same watered down "points" and "evidence" to the point a argument emerges.

People will not change their views on something, so why bother trying? Who gives a crap what their views on a videogame's future is? Each and every one of you try to carry your opinion as fact, when really, your opinion is just as subjective as their opinion on your ideas.

What I am getting at is when someone makes the suggestion to just play melee, then JUST GO PLAY MELEE. It is a suggestion made so that you can enjoy a game that you vocalize as you enjoying so much. Quit getting all butthurt and defensive over nothing, and if you like Brawl? Fine, but the fact is that debating over a videogame's future is pointless because none of us can truly say what is going to happen.

In conclusion:

Shut the hell up, to both sides, and play Smash.

 

[LavisFiend]

The debate should not exist because the central point of the competitive debate is debating on a thing that is already complete.

The issue I have with this is that you hear constant bellyaching and butthurt over the end result of Brawl, and that everyone believes their word is authentic or god when their word is actually common and overused.

Not a single one of you have anything to say that is authentic. You make constant excuses that you are "just debating" because it supplies cover to what you are actually doing, which is complaining. You are pissed that Brawl did not live up to Melee's standards, and thus, you are griping. Pure, unadulterated griping. That really is all there is to it.

Then you throw a temper tantrum whenever you hear someone tell you to just play Melee. You then retort with "I LIKE THE GAME BUT IT WILL NEVER BE COMPETITIVE LIKE MELEE IS WHAT I SAYIN" which is just another way of saying " I WANT TO GET A RISE OUT OF PEOPLE FOR NO PARTICULAR REASON AND TRY TO PROVE A POINT THAT NO ONE WISHES TO AGREE WITH BECAUSE I AM A DRAMA QUEEN."

Sure people will take sides, it's normal, but it dosen't mean jack that both sides are arguing on either side of a ditch, and that not a single side is smart enough to get their head out of their *** and find a bridge to connect both sides.

People take opinions too seriously. They can't stand to be wrong, because they take everything to the heart. It dosen't help that people continue to poke people by drilling people over and over and over and over with the same watered down "points" and "evidence" to the point a argument emerges.

People will not change their views on something, so why bother trying? Who gives a crap what their views on a videogame's future is? Each and every one of you try to carry your opinion as fact, when really, your opinion is just as subjective as their opinion on your ideas.

What I am getting at is when someone makes the suggestion to just play melee, then JUST GO PLAY MELEE. It is a suggestion made so that you can enjoy a game that you vocalize as you enjoying so much. Quit getting all butthurt and defensive over nothing, and if you like Brawl? Fine, but the fact is that debating over a videogame's future is pointless because none of us can truly say what is going to happen.

In conclusion:

Shut the hell up, to both sides, and play Smash.

 

[Papapaint]

All aboard the LavisFiend failtrain!

Also, if all I'm doing is complaining, then why did I dedicate several hours to making this complete Falco guide: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4108765#post4108765 ?

If all I'm doing is complaining, why has my rank on wifi wars gone from 7 to... I have no idea anymore... simply because I want to find alternate strategies?

If all I'm doing is complaining, why do I keep saying things like "Brawl is very fun, and we can work to find some potential in it"?

 

[Toadster5]

Lol.

Let's all go play Street Fighter.

That sounds like a really good idea. It's actually developed for competitive play with the assistance of competitive players.

 

[Eggm]

Ok, are you chowder heads ready for the truth? The truth is, Brawl is a child's game, plain and simple. It was made for, and with the sole purpose of satisfying, small children or those who have no intention of putting out more effort than you would to play Jak and Daxter.

The writing is on the wall, and I'm so disappointed that we are as a community planning on moving forward with this game. I could really write a book on the endless shortcomings of Brawl, such as how it has about as much depth as a sandbox, but let me make my point: Brawl was made to ease the pain of persons who suffered in the face of complicated Melee gameplay. I mean, the dude even said it himself he doesnt want to the game to be so competitive. I've had the game since it's Japanese release and it seems abundently clear what the benefits of this game are . . .

Like to roll a lot? NO PROBLEM!! No big deal friend, you might get hit once, twice at worst. Roll away!

Can't space your upB on the ledge? NO WORRIES!! Feel free to check your cell phone while you play, you won't be punished. The auto-suck on ensures that EVERYONE can get back on the ledge, not just those with talent.

Can't train your fingers to WD, L-Cancel, or meteor cancel? DONT' SWEAT IT!! Now no one can, so the division of skill will be much more fair. Finally, thank god!!

There's some kid down the street who always whoops your *** and then makes fun of you in 7th grade science class? HELP IS HERE!! Because now with Brawl, you can basically mash your palm against the controller and make great things happen.
**** guy, for that matter, he'll be so busy tripping randomly you can just get him then.
Or **** man, after you hit him you'll have a good 12 seconds before he comes back down again so you have plenty of time to plan your next attack. This way there will be no pressure whatsoever during the match.

That's because in Melee you were forced to make bsplit second decisions, supported by split frame timing and precise finger movements. ON TOP of the mind games which people are flaunting as the upside of Brawl.
If Melee was Fight Club, then Brawl is like, you know when you would wrestle in those ball pits? You could pretend you were Edward Norton, but everything is padded anyway and besides you know your mom is watching from outside anyway just in case.

Melee still has years left on it. We were just figuring it out. M2k was discovering new things up to the end, and some random kid won the last tournament. There's no reason we can't keep playing Melee.

My final argument and then I'll finish:
How on earth are you going to convince a girl that playing smash for a living isn't so stupid? In Melee you could explain the complex mechanics, the sophisticated mental battles, and high level of competition.
How are you going to get any *** at all if you have to explain why you spend your weekends playing Brawl? Just look at it. It's ****ing embarrassing.

Best post ever.

This is the best post I've ever read. It's a little extreme, but I think the only way to get the point across to the Brawl supporters.

I feel the same way.

 

[Banks]

Lol.

Let's all go play melee.

 

[Winston]

Let's all quadruple post.

Seriously, LavisFiend, that **** was epic.

 

[MajinSweet]

Irrelevant.

Actually, its extremely relevant and a point people try to ignore because its very valid and hurts there argument. Melee was a great competitive game with lots of depth but, mostly it came from mistakes. Brawl could turn out the exact same way, especially considering the the game at its core has many of the same features and concepts. Way to many people try to just ignore Brawl supporters with "Brawl wasn't meant to be competitive" and they just totally ignore that Melee was the same exact way. Its just plain unfair.

No they obviously weren't, we're just mad they screwed over the competitive players in the process.

We don't really know if they did that yet, I'm really leaning towards them not doing that from my experience.

Addressed a million times before; we didn't have the community we do now who are looking for things to make this game deeper. We have not found anything close to game-breaking yet.

We have been constantly finding little things that will impact the game, no one is even close to putting them all together and applying them, once that happens--you can be sure the game will change quite a bit.

This doesn't make any sense. He's arguing Up+B's require spacing to sweetspot and not incur landing lag; now any character can just Up+B at any time to protect himself. Auto ledge grabbing does help against ledge hogging due to lag time on the ledge induced and ledge hogging in general being nerfed.

I know this, but my point was Melee had its own version of "noob friendly" recovery to argue against his point of Brawl "just being for kids". In Brawl, if you try to Up's into the side of the stage, it punishes you with a death. Why do we ignore the loss of certain Melee things that were noob friendly and only focus on the things that Brawl has that are noob friendly. Simply because its different?

Also, many characters have to be very careful about when they choose to use Up B, or different recovery methods depending on the situation. People that require tethers get ***** by edge hogging now. And now, Brawl is more about edge guarding before you even get to use an Up B, Brawl's edge guarding game is so much different.

Do not agree with whatsoever; skill between players can be greatly differentiated by more complex controls, but I guess this is a matter of opinion, so whatever you think.

I didn't say it didn't, I just said complex controls don't just make a game better, and easier to use controls don't make the game worse. A game can still be amazingly complex and competitive with simple controls.

I hope this was a joke.

Nope, Melee is a VERY noob friendly game, doesn't mean it can't be great for the hardcore though. Brawl might turn out the same way.

Everything we know so far points to it being random. Even if it isn't, pointless "tech" to implement to just cater to randomness.

Unless the tripping is there to punish certain types of movement, thus the game would require more complex controls.

Hopefully, but we haven't seen any progress yet and have tons of experienced people working on it.

Experienced people don't really matter at this point to be frank, the games new and besides mental battles, everyone is essentially at the same level. Its simply up to the masses to play the game, and its still way to soon to expect major results.

Again, this better be a joke.

Nope.

Most pros are playing Brawl just because they've been playing Melee for years and are looking for something fresh; it just isn't going to last because there is no depth to the game. We're mad Brawl came out because it's going to split the competitive Melee community and make Smash out to be a simple game.

We don't know it doesn't have depth yet, many competitive players from traditional fighters said the same thing about Melee. It took some of them 5 years to be convinced, some never were convinced. Why are some people so adamant on "proving" that Brawl has no competitive game play? Do you want the game to fail in a competitive scene? Why?

Again, addressed this point already; we know way more about Smash than before, and have a way larger community working on fixing strategies. Nothing game-breaking has come up yet.

Brawl is vastly different that Melee in the game play department, some Melee habits may even work against you when playing the game. SSB may be a different story but, I'll be the first to admit that I don't have much experience with that game. My point is, as much as we may think we know what to look for, we really don't. And secondly, we shouldn't even be looking for "game breaking techniques" yet. We should just focus on applying basic game play functions and currently know AT's to a higher level.

I hope you're right, but there is no indication of this being the case. Melee was a "beautiful mistake", and it appears the developers have done everything in their power to cater to the casual crowd this time around. And sadly, the metagame just points to camping being the dominant strategy.

I really just have to disagree, the game has quite a few things put in a purpose for people looking for a competitive edge. The game has way to much diversity and characters for there not to be anything in the ways of depth. Maybe it won't have as much depth as Melee? But whats the point in theorizing? Why don't we just find out for ourselves?

 

[-Hoggle-]

Lol.

Let's all go play melee.

Lets play melee and brawl!

 

[Eggm]

Lol.

Let's all go play melee.

FTW!!! SPOC V Scar's tournament this saturday Banks, bring mainhamshiprie omgggg that'd make it even more epic than it already is. Cyrain/plank/HAT want to come from md/va, and nj/pa is gonna b there strong, ny is brining hax/jman/alukrd/vanz, its going to be sweet, i hear pittsburg is coming to omg!

 

[Batchfile]

Well.. "Competitive" seems to have more connotations here.

I do not see Brawl as a less competitive game. Although, the game is indecisive when it comes to winning.

No doubt that Brawl's new features such as the Final Smashes and Assist Trophies add a twist to gameplay. But, I see people taking the wrong outlook on these features.

Especially more so on Final Smashes. The game designers obviously didn't want this as a grab and go item. But people fail to see the second intention of the Smash Ball. And thats to provide a chaotic setting to where players not only must concentrate on the Ball, but at their opponents too. It's a more tactical thing. I cannot deny that under some circumstances this may not be the case. But overall, the outcome will generally be the same.

But.. While playing against people.. The winner is usually a common victor among matches. But part of the game was designed to provide not as much experienced players a fighting chance by all these unseen surprises. Because obviously, the game's makers were logical about the situation and knew that the same person always coming out at the top would only be more enjoyable to that one person. And we ALL know how that feels.

But ultimately, the person who has developed a tactical way to handle all the situations (including surprise ones) he/she will be faced will be the "common winner".

PM me to reply. Or reply here then PM. I could go on and on but waving this Wii remote around is getting annoying.

 

[San Diego Reaper]

Yeah... Melee>Brawl

I am and was a big competitive player in melee. I am very familiar with all the techniques such as wave dashing and L canceling and use them very frequently. I love melee because its fast, competitive and fun.
Brawl is fun in its own way too. I dont deny that. But the game is simpler, things are slower. Techniques that made the game faster and harder were removed. sadly, the game is basic fighting. Its not until you play melee at these really high levels that you begin to appreciate how much skill it took.
Yeah, brawl is fun. But most people agree that brawl is no where near the competitive level of melee so to play it in a tournament say EVO.. i feel like they are using an easy version of the real game.

In short Melee= more competitive..therefor should still be mainstream in tournies
Brawl=simple fun with friends (simple as in not as difficult as melee)

 

[Bibbed]

I don't even know where to start. . .

First off, it's pretty apparent that the only people here arguing against Wife's or Scar's posts are people that don't even play the game competitively. In which case, stop ****ing posting on this thread. This is includes you behemoth, no one's ever ****ing heard of you, so you can go **** off.

Secondly, if any one here argues that Melee was all about tech skill, then you seriously only played the game for about 5 minutes. If those saying this had ever attended a Melee tournament they would know that every person there can wavedash, L-cancel, waveshine, JCG, and everything else until their blue in the face. IT'S NOT HARD. So what's the separator? Mindgames. Just like Wife said, making split second decisions. Brawl doesn't require that. You could draw your plan out on a piece of paper while you wait for your opponent to fall from the sky.

Lastly, can we transfer idiots like Eternal Neo, AKC12, and behemoth to GameFAQs? They be praised as gods for their "insight" over there.

 

[Big Bob]

To the orange post: There is absolutely no reason to be a ******* on the internet. Quit with this holier than thou attitude about a **** video game. It does not affect you in anyway, so shut up.

Anyway, one reason I think of Brawl as competitive is because of its relative youth; so far, it seems like the character balance in the game is superb, and no characters are clearly better or worse than the rest of the cast, unlike Melee's metagame, where Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, and Peach players are pretty much used by everybody. (Yeah, there are exceptions, but those are still the most common) In comparison, pretty much every Brawl player I've seen is consistently using their own characters of choice, and the only "good" characters are the ones people use for themselves. Yeah, I've seen arguments for Pit and Toon Link, and I think they're valid, but it's too soon to really say that they dominate the game. Many unique characters like Pokemon Trainer, Olimar, and Snake have yet to be fully explored, and the fun of discovery is what makes the game competitive; if only to find out who is the best.