Data Samus Match-Up Discussion Thread 2.0

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The Rosalina sub-forum is analyzing Samus again this week. Here's the link to the page if you have anything to contribute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/409970/

 

[Afro Smash]

One last thing guys...from what I can tell bf/dreamland are our best stages, but is there any character you won't take there? Or do you always pick or counter pick one of those stages regardless of the opponent? I took cloud there on a counter pick a while ago and by god the amount of uairs I constantly plummeted into...

Falcon/Zss/Cloud/Rosa/Bowser/Zard and maybe some more I don't take there because the Up Air pressure is too strong or to avoid early deaths from grabs

 

[Anfantast]

Falcon/Zss/Cloud/Rosa/Bowser/Zard and maybe some more I don't take there because the Up Air pressure is too strong or to avoid early deaths from grabs

I personally think it is a bad idea to take R.O.B. to BF or DL as well.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

Any tips on Sonic vs. Samus?

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Any tips on Sonic vs. Samus?

I use bombs a lot vs sonic, because sonic doesn't have much in the way of aerial approaches. Because he relies on keeping distance and punishing, or pressuring close up and punishing whiffs or shields, bombs are annoying to sonic. If he goes into an aerial neutral b, try spot dodging instead of shielding. It's more punishable that way. Don't fall for spin dash shenanigans. Stand your ground and let sonic overextend and make sure you stay mobile but in control.

 

[Afro Smash]

Sonic is easily fast enough to react to and run through bombs or just turnaround, you would need to be near full stage length to do that safely. Super Missiles are much better pressure imo and beat spindash too

 

[Vyrnx]

Spindash goes under super missiles. I really think Samus's neutral is practically nonexistent in this MU. We can't set up a zone/midrange game at all on Sonic, though it's really stage dependent. I guess Sonic can struggle against shield, so if you can manage to move around while still avoiding his stray bairs/uairs/fsmash etc and then abuse shield it can be somewhat tough for Sonic to get the kill. But eventually his killthrows will start working.

 

[Xygonn]

I ledge camp the **** out of sonic. He has garbage ledge pokes.

 

[KayJay]

Tiny CS stops Sonic's Spindash and is pretty safe in the neutral.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Sonic is easily fast enough to react to and run through bombs or just turnaround, you would need to be near full stage length to do that safely. Super Missiles are much better pressure imo and beat spindash too

Yes, he CAN run through bombs, but that's much much easier said than done when combined with ledge camping. The MU boils down to his garbage ledge and offstage game to our much greater ledge punishes and the combos and kills we can get from them.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

Thank you so much everyone! I will be sure to keep all of your tips and strategies in mind next time I run into a Sonic in bracket.

Also, about the bad ledge pokes on Sonic's part... If you regrab once against Sonic past like 120%, his Dsmash WILL kill you lol. Though aside from that, yeah he doesn't have much else. Maybe down angled Fsmash? Not sure if that reaches Samus grabbing the ledge. Same for Dtilt. But I am very sure Dsmash will and kill.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Thank you so much everyone! I will be sure to keep all of your tips and strategies in mind next time I run into a Sonic in bracket.

Also, about the bad ledge pokes on Sonic's part... If you regrab once against Sonic past like 120%, his Dsmash WILL kill you lol. Though aside from that, yeah he doesn't have much else. Maybe down angled Fsmash? Not sure if that reaches Samus grabbing the ledge. Same for Dtilt. But I am very sure Dsmash will and kill.

You should never be regrabbing unless it's with your tether so you're safe from that stuff.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

Someone was talking about abusing ledge-play against Sonic though. So I thought that meant regrabbing.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Someone was talking about abusing ledge-play against Sonic though. So I thought that meant regrabbing.

Well, yes, and no. You mentioned being hit by a dsmash, but that would never happen if you tethered to the ledge instead of just neked grabbing it. For instance, ledge drop and f-air to hit. If he shields, you pull back and tether the ledge without zipping up. You're safe from smashes if you stay low, and you have a ledge to tech if you see him run off and bair stagespike you.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

But what if he spring gimps you? Our DJ would've been wasted already. D:

 

[Afro Smash]

But what if he spring gimps you? Our DJ would've been wasted already. D:

Depends where he does it but generally you'll either have to tech, or you'll just about be able to make it back to the ledge with Up B, but he can catch you with down angled F Smash

 

[White_Pointer]

Seems like Corrin hands us our arse on a silver plate. Huge range, everything's disjointed, stupidly good frame data, no lag on many of her moves, can't punish them even if you power shield them. A good Corrin gets around zairs easily, side b seems to have some kind of intangibility frames or armour on it that just ignores zair and missiles completely. She can also fire off her charge shot a lot more often than we can fire off ours and it's dangerous even with a small charge on it.

Corrin is actually broken if you ask me. Not even Sheik has levels of BS this high. Corrin is being slept on a bit because everyone's worried about Bayonetta's jank but seriously, Corrin is the one they should be worried about.

 

[meleebrawler]

Disjoints can be an issue for Samus trying to approach... but Charge Shot means she doesn't really have to. It renders all of Corrin's options from a range useless, and there isn't usually a lot she can do to stop it from charging since her mobility isn't so good. Corrin is also combo food due to being a fastfaller, and rather easy to gimp since her recovery is very linear.

I don't see her being worse than 60:40 for Corrin, it's quite doable for Samus, she just has to be VERY patient, like every other brawler, but fortunately she has the means to make Corrin approach and make doing so a chore. Charge the shot, be ready for side b approaches and use bombs to mess up her microspacing.

 

[Afro Smash]

Idk how people keep saying Corrin is easy to gimp, her up b has a lot of invincibility at the start and a HUGE disjoint on it, it's pretty much unchallengable from above unless you have disjoints yourself.

I'd personally say it's at least 40:60 for us atm, she's as good at midrange as we are and better up close, very hard to challenge in the air because of her disjoints (especially that nair), and lots of her moves send you vertically which put us in our worst position, and she has far safer kill options in side b and grabs

 

[meleebrawler]

Idk how people keep saying Corrin is easy to gimp, her up b has a lot of invincibility at the start and a HUGE disjoint on it, it's pretty much unchallengable from above unless you have disjoints yourself.

I'd personally say it's at least 40:60 for us atm, she's as good at midrange as we are and better up close, very hard to challenge in the air because of her disjoints (especially that nair), and lots of her moves send you vertically which put us in our worst position, and she has far safer kill options in side b and grabs

It's not that Dragon Ascent is easy to challenge, it's Corrin's crap aerial mobility combined with up b's limited trajectories that severely restrict how she can recover. Go out against her early to force an unfavorable reaction, don't wait for her to get in up b range.

This isn't a fun matchup, especially when at a deficit, but more than doable with a healthy dose of patience and Charge Shot fear mongering. Make the combo hits count and keep up the pressure offstage.

 

[Afro Smash]

I wouldn't say it's limited, it's definitely less linear than a lot of other recoveries (especially compared to other FE characters), and she can back air offstage to get good momentum forward, and she can side b stages with walls for an extra jump. She's not ungimpable ofc it's just difficult enough that it isn't a boon for us in the matchup

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

I'm pretty sure that this MU is unfavorable for Samus.

 

[White_Pointer]

Yeah I agree with Afro Smash on Corrin's recovery, it isn't exactly easy to gimp due to its huge disjoint.

And I don't believe Corrin's slow speed is really an issue when she has such crazy range on many of her moves. Her fsmash actually outranges our grab and comes out faster. Even her back air outranges all of our aerial options (and is a kill move to boot), and her down air beats our up b for good measure. There's nothing we can do to challenge her nair and it seems we have an incredibly hard time landing. Most of her aerials have incredibly low end lag on them too and we can't even punish them if we power shield them. Up b out of shield generally isn't an option as because of her range, she won't be anywhere close enough to hit her.

I think I know why her side b seems to ignore most of our options and that's because the hitbox on it appears to clank with our zair or missiles. However unlike other moves that stop when they clank, Corrin's side b keeps going, which really is pretty broken. Why is side b even a kill move?

CosmicCosmos has won two Shockwaves in a row now with Corrin, I predict we are going to be seeing a lot more of her in the near future. She's a contender for top 10 for sure.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Personally I have hope for the MU. Our zair eats her side b, we can use bombs vs her mobility, CS eats through hers on reaction, though it may be difficult to ouright gimp her, her recovery is still telegraphed and relatively easy to tether trump and punish buffers, she's combo food for us, and most importantly, we're much more mobile than her on the ground. I'd say rather than trying to intercept her aerials (we just can't), use your superior ground mobility and bombs to poke at patience and force whiffs for punishes. I think with that in mind, she's beatable. I don't think she's any worse than 40:50, or any better than 50:50 as of now.

 

[White_Pointer]

-_ellipsis_-

Zair doesn't eat side b from my experience, it seems to clank with it (at least the first part of the move with the dragon arm). Same story with missiles. And her side b doesn't get cancelled when it happens.

You can't really rely on our charge shot beating hers on reaction either, because ours takes longer to charge and she can spam even low powered charges that are dangerous. Our partially charged CS won't threaten her at all, it's gotta be fully charged and good luck finding enough openings to charge it.

And she might be slow but she's honestly not THAT slow. We most definitely do not have better ground mobility than her. Have you actually looked at the run speed numbers? Samus is 1.504 and Corrin is 1.5. It's virtually identical. That fact combined with her huge range just doesn't make this matchup at all fun.

 

[meleebrawler]

-_ellipsis_-

Zair doesn't eat side b from my experience, it seems to clank with it (at least the first part of the move with the dragon arm). Same story with missiles. And her side b doesn't get cancelled when it happens.

You can't really rely on our charge shot beating hers on reaction either, because ours takes longer to charge and she can spam even low powered charges that are dangerous. Our partially charged CS won't threaten her at all, it's gotta be fully charged and good luck finding enough openings to charge it.

And she might be slow but she's honestly not THAT slow. We most definitely do not have better ground mobility than her. Have you actually looked at the run speed numbers? Samus is 1.504 and Corrin is 1.5. It's virtually identical. That fact combined with her huge range just doesn't make this matchup at all fun.

We may not really outmaneuver Corrin, but our dash attack is certainly much better and safer burst mobility.

Don't see why you insist on comparing the two projectiles either. We can store our charge, Corrin can't. You also don't need it fully charged to overpower the water ball at anything other than full charge itself.

 

[JAZZ_]

We may not really outmaneuver Corrin, but our dash attack is certainly much better and safer burst mobility.

Don't see why you insist on comparing the two projectiles either. We can store our charge, Corrin can't. You also don't need it fully charged to overpower the water ball at anything other than full charge itself.

True but good corrins take to the air where they cant be challenged by anything except maybe zair, and most wont sit and play projectile wars, if they play patient at all Samus is in a bad spot.

 

[Vyrnx]

Corrin's projectile is pretty irrelevant in this MU. Like, it's not good or spammable. If you are getting hit by the bite, then it is because you are trying to punish it and messing up. We don't necessarily need to try to punish Corrin after she uses her projectile anyway, since the projectile is incredibly weak (by shield damage and priority) and doesn't do much of anything to affect our neutral. Not that it isn't punishable, it definitely is.

Well spaced moves like zair, ftilt, and utilt, but especially zair, make me think we beat Corrin midrange. I also think we can preemptively challenge her aerials. From Corrin's perspective, for instance, her fair will not beat Marth's, because Marth's is faster. It's the same with Samus' nair (but it obviously lacks the range of Marth's fair, so you have to jump in farther and commit, whereas Marth can always fade back). It's not a great MU, but it is definitely not worse than 40:60 (or 45:55 sue me). And for what it's worth I don't see Corrin as top 10 at all. Good yes, definitely not top 10.

 

[White_Pointer]

Corrin's projectile is pretty irrelevant in this MU. Like, it's not good or spammable. If you are getting hit by the bite, then it is because you are trying to punish it and messing up. We don't necessarily need to try to punish Corrin after she uses her projectile anyway, since the projectile is incredibly weak (by shield damage and priority) and doesn't do much of anything to affect our neutral. Not that it isn't punishable, it definitely is.

I disagree that her projectile is irrelevant in this MU. I think you're underestimating how good the move actually is. Even a partially charged one is enough to stun us for long enough for her to get a follow up on it, and that is definitely spammable if the Corrin wants to play that way. Our fully charged CS will clank with her fully charged water ball, and if it isn't fully charged and doesn't clank with the water wall, it can possibly still clank with the bite.

If she ever gets in on us we are combo food for days at low percentages. Zair is the only thing we have that can challenge her in the air and that alone isn't good enough. Her fsmash actually outranges our grab, and comes out faster for good measure. We can't even up b out of shield to punish her aerials on shield most of the time because they have enough range and are disjointed enough that she's usually not close enough to be hit by it, and even if she was her aerials are basically lagless and she can almost immediately follow up from one. Her dair beats our up b too for the record, so you can't even try to bait an up b kill as she can just dair us. She's unchallengable in the air except for zair. We can't really challenge her off stage very well, amd you can't even punish a shielded side b.

Without a disjoint of our own or better frame data, I think we are up the proverbial creek without a paddle in this MU.

 

[meleebrawler]

I disagree that her projectile is irrelevant in this MU. I think you're underestimating how good the move actually is. Even a partially charged one is enough to stun us for long enough for her to get a follow up on it, and that is definitely spammable if the Corrin wants to play that way. Our fully charged CS will clank with her fully charged water ball, and if it isn't fully charged and doesn't clank with the water wall, it can possibly still clank with the bite.

If she ever gets in on us we are combo food for days at low percentages. Zair is the only thing we have that can challenge her in the air and that alone isn't good enough. Her fsmash actually outranges our grab, and comes out faster for good measure. We can't even up b out of shield to punish her aerials on shield most of the time because they have enough range and are disjointed enough that she's usually not close enough to be hit by it, and even if she was her aerials are basically lagless and she can almost immediately follow up from one. Her dair beats our up b too for the record, so you can't even try to bait an up b kill as she can just dair us. She's unchallengable in the air except for zair. We can't really challenge her off stage very well, amd you can't even punish a shielded side b.

Without a disjoint of our own or better frame data, I think we are up the proverbial creek without a paddle in this MU.

...Dragon Fang Shot does at most 13%, well below Charge Shot's 25%. Don't see how it's clanking. The bite might, but because Charge Shot goes so fast it'll be really hard to charge it in time. It's really pretty useless for camping, since even the most inept approaches don't have much trouble reacting to the telegraphed, unable-to-be-canceled charge and powershielding. Mainly it's used to catch landings and keep opponents from recklessly running in on Corrin.

Attacking Corrin head-on usually doesn't end well, and when played well won't leave herself open to Screw Attack OOS like you say, but it's somewhat mitigated by her poor crossup ability. Basically anytime Corrin jumps at you, drop a bomb between the two of you; it will at the very least hinder her from following up a successful hit, and she doesn't have a lot of wiggle room to avoid it due to her poor airspeed and fast falling.

 

[Vyrnx]

The MU isn't good but let's not exaggerate.

I disagree that her projectile is irrelevant in this MU. I think you're underestimating how good the move actually is. Even a partially charged one is enough to stun us for long enough for her to get a follow up on it, and that is definitely spammable if the Corrin wants to play that way. Our fully charged CS will clank with her fully charged water ball, and if it isn't fully charged and doesn't clank with the water wall, it can possibly still clank with the bite.

This move is not good or anywhere near spammable. We can't complain about followups off the move when there isn't a good excuse to ever get hit by it. To put it into perspective, Corrin's neutral b is laggier on the ending than Samus' uncharged neutral b and significantly laggier than the ending of ZSS' uncharged neutral b. i.e. uncharged fang shot is not spammable at all. It is also ridiculously reactable (it is an already mediocre frame 15, but only hits on frame 15 if you are literally right next to Corrin since it is a projectile) and ridiculously slow in the air. And the reward for landing it is usually 4% no followups.

Mid charge fang shot is even worse, because obviously the startup is slower. But mid charge is the only way Corrin will get followups sub 110%, and I shouldn't even mention followups when nobody should be getting hit by a frame ~30 (much more than that when range is factored) projectile in the first place.

Samus has way stronger projectiles. If some FG Corrin is spamming fang shot, use missiles (10%, definitely an advantageous "trade" though missiles eat through various levels of fang shot) or charge CS and shield the highly reactable projectile, then keep charging during the ridiculously high endlag on the move. With fully charged CS the Corrin will only use fang shot if they want to take 25%. The bite never does more than 10% until full charge, and fully charged bite comes out on frame 85. So if you see Corrin start fang shot, you can fire CS on reaction and there is zero risk of CS clanking with anything--it is a guaranteed 25% damage and possible KO.

A tourney Corrin will never ever use fang shot against Samus, and will probably never use fang shot against the majority of the cast. Just like Zero Suits rarely use neutral b. Corrin is at a huge disadvantage for using the move, especially against characters with chargables.

If she ever gets in on us we are combo food for days at low percentages.

Samus isn't combo food to Corrin. Corrin has very limited, situational combos against the whole cast, and especially against a floaty like Samus who escapes almost everything with DI'ing up/away and jumping. I think an issue in the MU is how much of Corrin's moveset knocks Samus up in the air. I go to the ledge a lot against Corrin (I do against any character who juggles, because the ledge is way better than the air almost always). It could be more accurate to say that Corrin can put Samus in a disadvantageous situation fairly easily (not for free), but not that Samus is combo food for Corrin.

Zair is the only thing we have that can challenge her in the air and that alone isn't good enough.

I almost agree except that we also have CS. Nair can be alright as well, but preemptively jumping and CSing a Corrin who continually approaches through the air can catch them off guard and get a stock. We should also shield always when Corrin approaches through the air, or take another defensive option like shad, roll, walk back, etc. If you are really feeling it then pivot grab but our pivot grab is so bad on whiff. Shielding tends to be best though since we can challenge her OOS.

Her fsmash actually outranges our grab, and comes out faster for good measure.

I don't see many situations where this would really be a factor. It also doesn't come out faster, not that it matters because it's not a situation that happens.

We can't even up b out of shield to punish her aerials on shield most of the time because they have enough range and are disjointed enough that she's usually not close enough to be hit by it, and even if she was her aerials are basically lagless and she can almost immediately follow up from one.

Corrin's bair is safe on shield. The others we can dtilt. Also, for what it's worth, if Corrin doesn't space well, her aerials definitely have lag/her other moves have startup and up b will most definitely punish her. Otherwise, dtilt.

Her dair beats our up b too for the record, so you can't even try to bait an up b kill as she can just dair us.

Also don't see situations where this would happen. If it is really an issue against a particularly dumb Corrin player, then bait the dair.

There are bigger issues with the MU, some of which you already pointed out, like Corrin's disjoints, juggling, side b, recovery, kill options, and her mobility isn't that bad. My reply was really to point out the exaggerations and that her projectile isn't good. Not that the MU is easy or 50:50 or anything.

 

[Afro Smash]

Dragon Fang Shot is still a great projectile, can trap landings, kill outright or combo in to kills, and the bite makes it virtually impossible to hard punish unless you double powershield or something. It is still relevant in this MU as well because we're not always going to have a CS handy to beat it and good Corrins are never going to just use it in the neutral, they'll use it with a wavebounce coming from the air when we're already pre emptively in shield expecting a disjointed aerial etc.

Also we are usually good from the ledge, but her F Smash and Immediate Side B can punish pretty much any of our more advanced ledge options from a safe distance, whilst all we can punish her with from that range is Zair (possibly CS), so being forced to the ledge a lot in this Match Up is worse for us than in most others.

I still need more practice but defo sticking with 40:60 for now

 

[meleebrawler]

It's Corrin's advantage since she is not as reliant on mistakes as Samus for damage and KOs, and can counter most attacks with disjoints. But Samus at least can do some meaningful things to Corrin outside sword range, plus unlike more rushdown oriented fighters it only takes minor victories in neutral to get charge. Corrin has to play absolutely perfectly to keep Samus from charging outside the word "GO".

 

[White_Pointer]

I'd really like to see some gameplay videos of Samus beating high level Corrins then. I don't mean your average FG hero, I mean actual tournament calibre Corrins. Because I've played a few, and felt literally helpless a lot of the time, and there's only a small number of characters in the game that make me feel that way. If the matchup if manageable I want to see proof that it is.

 

[Vyrnx]

I'd really like to see some gameplay videos of Samus beating high level Corrins then. I don't mean your average FG hero, I mean actual tournament calibre Corrins. Because I've played a few, and felt literally helpless a lot of the time, and there's only a small number of characters in the game that make me feel that way. If the matchup if manageable I want to see proof that it is.

I mean, personal impressions is all we have right now. I doubt anyone will be seeing any high level Samus vs high level Corrin tourney matches for a long time--Samus being unpopular and Corrin being new, and if there are tournament matches the likelihood of them being videoed is pretty low. So for now a lack of videos doesn't negate anyone's arguments (i.e. I could say, show me a video that proves Corrin isn't manageable or I won't believe you). But for now there is nothing wrong with just impressions (from both perspectives).

 

[FlAlex]

I'd really like to see some gameplay videos of Samus beating high level Corrins then. I don't mean your average FG hero, I mean actual tournament calibre Corrins. Because I've played a few, and felt literally helpless a lot of the time, and there's only a small number of characters in the game that make me feel that way. If the matchup if manageable I want to see proof that it is.

Any hope of Depth fighting CosmicComsos or Ryo?

 

[Abbey Street]

It can be safe to say that Samus has faced evil in many a form throughout her travels across the galaxy. The Space Pirates, Metroids and Galactic Federation all know this very well.

But for Samus, the journey is never over. There will always be another bounty to hunt, another mission from the Federation, another uprising of the Space Pirates in a quest to enact vengeance on Samus. But this time, the evil she must face is...different.

Ganondorf, the King of Evil, will inevitably cross paths with Samus on the grand stage of Smash. He appears human, but thanks to magic unseen by Samus's kind, possesses the power and resiliency comparable to Ridley, Samus's sworn nemesis. With the mysterious Triforce of Power in hand, he seeks naught but complete domination, and will not hesitate to employ his black magicks to eviscerate anyone in his path.

Despite being otherworldly in the powers he possesses, Ganondorf is far from an unfamiliar adversary. There is plenty of intel, and thus it's wise for Samus and The Federation to gather up everything they can find in preparation for Samus's next epic confrontation. Thankfully, the King of Evil's followers have been gathering intel as well, and are courteously sharing their own knowledge in the Ganondorf Matchup Thread.

Click here to gather and discuss intel on Ganondorf

 

[FlAlex]

It can be safe to say that Samus has faced evil in many a form throughout her travels across the galaxy. The Space Pirates, Metroids and Galactic Federation all know this very well.

But for Samus, the journey is never over. There will always be another bounty to hunt, another mission from the Federation, another uprising of the Space Pirates in a quest to enact vengeance on Samus. But this time, the evil she must face is...different.

Ganondorf, the King of Evil, will inevitably cross paths with Samus on the grand stage of Smash. He appears human, but thanks to magic unseen by Samus's kind, possesses the power and resiliency comparable to Ridley, Samus's sworn nemesis. With the mysterious Triforce of Power in hand, he seeks naught but complete domination, and will not hesitate to employ his black magicks to eviscerate anyone in his path.

Despite being otherworldly in the powers he possesses, Ganondorf is far from an unfamiliar adversary. There is plenty of intel, and thus it's wise for Samus and The Federation to gather up everything they can find in preparation for Samus's next epic confrontation. Thankfully, the King of Evil's followers have been gathering intel as well, and are courteously sharing their own knowledge in the Ganondorf Matchup Thread.

Click here to gather and discuss intel on Ganondorf

That's a really well put and dramatic invitation.

But I think you forget that Samus has blown-up planets and an entire dimension, while Ganon is constantly thwarted by
pre-pubescent boys in tights.

Nuff said...

 

[White_Pointer]

And Villager? This is just my experience, but I've never faced an unbeatable Villager, ever. Mainly because I disturb him with my zair and I get to win the space war with it.

I find zair ineffective in this MU cause Villager just fairs you from a longer range. There's no real point trying to space Villager out with zair in the first place cause Villager wants to play the zoning game anyway, but even if you try, zair loses or at worst trades with his fair, which he can spam faster, and he's always gonna have a lloid rocket coming at you that forces you to shield, dodge or jump over, all of which he can follow up with stuff to continue his zoning. I was training with a good Villager not long ago and nothing I tried was particularly effective. Our projectiles, even CS, are mostly irrelevant, not just due to pocket (a Villager can spot dodge our full CS, and still be able to turn around and pocket it, wtf) but because lloid rocket clanks with all of them, even full CS during the rocket's startup, and the tree of course blocks everything too. You can't even grab him reliably due to how our grab works, you end up standing in front of the rocket that was thrown out a frame before, which will probably hit you before you can get a throw off.

I find Samus struggles in general with many zone-heavy characters, including Toon Link and Duck Hunt Duo (not so much with Mega Man or Pac-man though) but Villager is the worst of them. Samus has no way to force a Villager to approach; Villager has no need to approach really, he's perfectly happy just throwing things at you all game long and Samus is not fast enough to take advantage of any openings that might come up. If you ever manage to get in close, Villager has plenty of tools to push you out again. I don't even attempt that MU with Samus anymore, it's so lopsided it's not even funny. The matchup is terrible and easily Samus' worst MU in the entire game by miles. None of her other MU's are even close to this level of bad, not even pre-patch MK.

On the plus side, Corrin was nerfed, so yay

 

[DungeonMaster]

I find zair ineffective in this MU cause Villager just fairs you from a longer range. There's no real point trying to space Villager out with zair in the first place cause Villager wants to play the zoning game anyway, but even if you try, zair loses or at worst trades with his fair, which he can spam faster, and he's always gonna have a lloid rocket coming at you that forces you to shield, dodge or jump over, all of which he can follow up with stuff to continue his zoning.

Are you using your Z-air into Dash combo? I have never really understood why people found villager so difficult in the past, I think it's because I was using the Z-air dash without knowing what it was. You can go through his tree, his rocket, his f-air/b-air and hit him into a combo.
At one point I had a really rough patch vs. villager, but now I just don't find them threatening. They play games and traps vs. other characters but it's like 4% they tack on you if you guess wrong and 14+ on them if you guess right.

I'm still working through the patch right now, feeling things out, but we have only a handful of bad matchups now, really since understanding the combo system, it's even or positive pretty much across the board. I felt that way before patch, I think the quality of life adjustments are really making this highly technical character cream less technical characters.