Sakurai does not want Smash to be a competitive franchise

[RDK]

SRK can have Brawl. They're the ****tiest community that goes to EVO, by far. If they want to go out and "develop offenses and defenses" for Brawl, let them. But do you honestly think they know more about the game than us? Give me a break.

And I like how Yuna is labeled a troll for destroying everyone's arguments. Lawl.

 

[mikeHAZE]

blarggggggggggggggggggg nvm

 

[6footninja]

she's classic trolling. Just very smartly since she's a director, known smasher and no one has the balls to call it out. I'm sure everyone who's being annoyed by her arguing everywhere feels like they're being trolled.

also stfu *** *karakusa -> fierce -> exhayate*

I know what I'm talking about, as do the legion of srk'ers laughing at your board.

QFT.

10 ballsy moves

 

[SiegKnight]

Stop arguing about brawl in the first place. Discuss setups, tactics, start being serious about the game. Just saying melee owns it; go compare it in another board. She's disproving peoples arguments, but they're being trolled by being lured into the argument in the first place. Gimpy obviously looks down on Brawl with a condensencing tone and thats where his idea for these threads come from. Food for thought, or a reason to rebel on brawl.

 

[RDK]

Stop arguing about brawl in the first place. Discuss setups, tactics, start being serious about the game. Just saying melee owns it; go compare it in another board. She's disproving peoples arguments, but they're being trolled by being lured into the argument in the first place. Gimpy obviously looks down on Brawl with a condensencing tone and thats where his idea for these threads come from. Food for thought, or a reason to rebel on brawl.

You're an ignorant fool if you think ALL we're doing is looking down on Brawl. The game's already been figured out by most smart people who understand the mechanics of the Smash metagame. Brawl is competitively inferior to Melee. It's just the facts.

All the BAAWWWing that's going around is the product of extremes on both sides--a.k.a., Melee people who are depressed about Brawl sucking man testicles, and Brawl n00bs who have no idea what they're talking about.

 

[SiegKnight]

Why don't you idiots slaughter both of them and limit your so called competetive board to actual tactical and gameplay relative discussion? Its like 50% of all I hear in any brawl thread.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Stop arguing about brawl in the first place. Discuss setups, tactics, start being serious about the game. Just saying melee owns it; go compare it in another board. She's disproving peoples arguments, but they're being trolled by being lured into the argument in the first place. Gimpy obviously looks down on Brawl with a condensencing tone and thats where his idea for these threads come from. Food for thought, or a reason to rebel on brawl.

lol, Gimpy's a troll and Yuna, well SHE's just flaming, obviously.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Stop arguing about brawl in the first place. Discuss setups, tactics, start being serious about the game. Just saying melee owns it; go compare it in another board. She's disproving peoples arguments, but they're being trolled by being lured into the argument in the first place. Gimpy obviously looks down on Brawl with a condensencing tone and thats where his idea for these threads come from. Food for thought, or a reason to rebel on brawl.

Bawwwww?

How can we be serious about a game that has been blatantly SKEWED in terms of competitive playability and in depth? Have you even PLAYED Melee at a competitive level? Because I will tell you what, Knight, Melee's sheer level of technical depth outstrips anything that SRK has in its line-up. Things like l-canceling, wavedashing, bomb teching, super wavedashing, etc...****, I could go on with the list of things that make Melee so competitively viable. Any one of us here could.

So, what does Street Fighter and the rest of its sister games have in common? A metagame that consists of Sonic Booms, Flash Kicks, and sweeps? And the occasional canceled Super? Oh, and MAYBE some camping peppered in for some flare? Parries? MvC2 near infinites? Or the spamming of a single upward slash in Soul Calibur (coughNightmarecough) that pretty much ends matches on the spot? I could go on with the list, you know. But some of the **** I listed isn't even half as deep or half as involving as Melee's metagame.

Brawl lacks the things that made Melee deep; hell, it's not even as balanced as rock-paper-scissors. It's hard to make heads or tails of what IS balance right now in Brawl's metagame. There are no true combos because of the horrific lack of hitstun. Whatever semblance of depth it does have lies in the camping and the horrible defensive aspects. There's no reward for outstanding offense anymore and rewards for outstanding offense are prevalent in every good fighting game.

You guys need to lurk moar and l2read. The majority of the community has voiced its opinion on Brawl and have garnered sufficient evidence to support our claims. Unlike most members of SRK, we know our games in our respective franchises. The only reason why you guys are even looking at us right now is because of the surge of popularity Melee had in the past two or three years---but even then that was haphazard at best, considering that you guys have always contemptuously regarded the Smash franchise as nothing more than a kid's game.

We have every right to dislike Brawl. It's a disappointment. I, personally, am one of the few people that hopes to GOD that the metagame will develop into something a little more palatable. With the way things are going now, however, it doesn't appear to be that way. So, I'll continue playing both games...but, I'll probably end up taking Melee more seriously than Brawl.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Lavos]

As a casual reader of these forums, I must say that SiegKnight made me laugh.

He's doing nothing to alleviate the elitist stereotype about SRK.

 

[Corigames]

I think SiegKnight is trolling us to make us mad... let's flame him!

Discussion boards are for talking. There are multiple threads to chose from. If this one doesn't fit your style, go elsewhere. There is an entire BRAWL TACTICS board! Go there if you want meaningful discussion. General board is for your silly threads, argument threads, speculation threads, and anything else that fits no where else. Guess where a thread on the acts of Sakurai go? No, not stage discussion. No, not character discussion. Not the video room. F'ing GENERAL discussion.

Learn 2 forum

 

[Avalon262]

All I'm missing right now is a bag of popcorn while I read the clash of opinions by both side. Some of the things each side are saying is kind of funny.

 

[Yuna]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^i like how you dont know what you're talking about, how is yuna a troll lol.

(*HI YUNA WE MET ONCE AT MLG ANAHEIM IN LIKE 06!)

Hiiii, Mike. *waves*

she's classic trolling. Just very smartly since she's a director, known smasher and no one has the balls to call it out. I'm sure everyone who's being annoyed by her arguing everywhere feels like they're being trolled.

also stfu *** *karakusa -> fierce -> exhayate*

I know what I'm talking about, as do the legion of srk'ers laughing at your board.

Are you saying that SRK likes items and "unneutrality" or are you saying that you (and only you) like them? Yours posts are a bit incoherent so it's hard to tell exactly what it is you're trying to say ("SRK are developing their defense and offense" - O... K...).

The only things I got out of it were that you like items and "unneutrality" and that I'm a very smart troll. And apparently a woman.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Hiiii, Mike. *waves*


Are you saying that SRK likes items and "unneutrality" or are you saying that you (and only you) like them? Yours posts are a bit incoherent so it's hard to tell exactly what it is you're trying to say ("SRK are developing their defense and offense" - O... K...).

The only things I got out of it were that you like items and "unneutrality" and that I'm a very smart troll. And apparently a woman.

A very sexy woman.

 

[Yuna]

A very sexy woman.

Indeed. Have you seen the pictures? There are pictures.

 

[Reaver197]

The crux of the issue, I guess, is that Brawl is sort of being put forth as the competitive standard of the Smash community, whether intentionally or not, replacing Melee as the competitive mainstay. The inclusion of Brawl at EVO and, as far as I can tell, the exclusion of Melee adds to that feeling.

However, a core group of people feel that Brawl does not facilitate or live up to playing high-level competition, and that the emphasis on Brawl as the competitive game of the Smash community is an error that will, in the end, have a negative impact on the competitive aspect of the community and possibly the community as a whole.

Though this may feel trivial and quaint to some, if not many, I feel it is important to choose the best, most competitively viable game this community has to put forth for the competitive scene.

Also by no means am I saying that no one should or can play Brawl or have tournaments if they want, but for the serious world of competitive gaming, Melee really ought to be the primary focus. The worry I have is that amidst the influx of newcomers that Brawl has brought into the loop, plus the inevitable popularity that it being a newly released, highly anticipated game that it has garnered, Melee will be drowned out and forgotten.

I have a sneaking suspicion that I will get attacked heavily for this post, for both right and wrong reasons.

 

[mikeHAZE]

yeah lol, you're a mean GIRL yuna.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=151626&page=97

If I may direct everybody's attention to this particular SRK thread.

Who here thinks that Spear Pillar should be counterpickable or neutral?

...

Anybody?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Yuna]

Stuff

Exactly. I'm all for both coexisting, I can accept that. But a lot of people want Brawl to replace Melee and for us to drop Melee completely. In that case, I'd argue dropping Brawl instead.

In my opinion, we should either keep both or drop Brawl.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=151626&page=97

If I may direct everybody's attention to this particular SRK thread.

Who here thinks that Spear Pillar should be counterpickable or neutral?

...

Anybody?

Smooth Criminal

I think they're considering leaving items on. I saw someone actually bring items up when discussing Spear Pillar at least.

But, yeah, why are they even considering leaving it on?

 

[Corigames]

But, yeah, why are they even considering leaving it on?

Because some people like to compensate for their lack of skill instead of getting better.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I think they're considering leaving items on. I saw someone actually bring items up when discussing Spear Pillar at least.

But, yeah, why are they even considering leaving it on?

Oh, you haven't even scratched the surface yet Yuna. You should read on.

This is one of my personal favorite quotes from the SRK people:

Because some people like to compensate for their lack of skill instead of getting better.

QFT.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Pink Reaper]

Indeed. Have you seen the pictures? There are pictures.

I've seen those pictures. I get all hot just thinking about them.

Also, spear pillar should be neutral because being able to dodge random one hit ko **** lasers is what really proves skill.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I've seen those pictures. I get all hot just thinking about them.

Also, spear pillar should be neutral because being able to dodge random one hit ko **** lasers is what really proves skill.

Don't forget the inverted controls, Reaper. Takes true skill to realize WTF is going on as you're trying to recover.

Seriously, guys, this is getting ********.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Bocom]

Actually, Yuna, your opinion about Brawl and Melee coexisting is pretty good. I mean, I assume you'll host the Melee tournament on the next UppCon (right? right?!). That's good, because that means that someone like me can host a miniature Brawl tournament, just for fun and stuff. I'd be glad if you'd play in that tournament, it would mean so much to me.

And also, I would of course be in the Melee tournament, like I was in '04. Well, I got ***** pretty hard, but that was before I knew about the scene. >_>

 

[PhillCollins]

Its getting Tarded in here, lets get it tarded in here

 

[NES n00b]

When SRK gets serious about Smash: the failure commences

http://forums.shoryuken.com/forumdisplay.php?f=244

People, please read this. Pure entertainment.

Seriously, I thought the Brawl boards had bad ideas but man was this terrible. Read:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=151754
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=151626&page=97

There are more, but classic debates abound. It's obvious alot of them just started Smash.

 

[SiegKnight]

You can't say entertainment on this board without it trying to link me via an ad into a 360 at amazon.com or something. You're probably better off not saying it. I think some of the debates here eclipse anything in this board outside of tactical discussion.

And coreygames, yes, wise idea. Thats why I rarely ****ing come outside of tactical discussion when browsing this awful as hell places. Why isn't this in melee discussion instead again? I'm ****ing confused. Blatant trollism.

 

[Aesir]

I like how SRK likes brawl, and Smashboards likes melee.

Brawl is a pretty in depth game, but when you compare it to melee it's like comparing The Mariana Trench to *insert some ocean here*

I think it sort of says something about the quality of games both communities like. /Trash Talk.

 

[SiegKnight]

because no fighting game in history ever started out almost entirely about spacing with no unequal rock paper scissors right? I'm pretty ****ing sure most of them know SFIV is weak as it is in japan with the test cabs out, they think its way too shallow to compete with third strike for now, but the same was said of third strike - a game with almost IDENTICAL base mechanics - when that came out, compared to II.

They like melee, they just are playing the new game to play. All game ****ing suck at release. Didn't anyone outside of your ****ty little backwater community tell you? All games, ever. No exceptions. I've never seen a game be technical upon release, not even VF4 was too technical as people thought it was degenerate compared to 3, and thats the most complex and in your face game ever.

VF5 is an exception as its just like 4, as are GG Slash and AC like XX. But when XX first game out, that was different too. Those are more like direct updates under the same game engine as their prequels. When third strike/sf3 series pioneered, they weren't at all like alpha or 2. Stuff you knew before - crouch cancel, etc - in the other games didn't work.

Purely BECAUSE of the game engine seeming to 'suck.' If you literally got a melee 2.0, all your old tricks and physics abuse would work just peachy. Of course you'd be happy with that. Anyone is when they get a sequel and all their old **** is nerfed or removed.

All games start off ****. Even mvc2, the most broke game ever. Melee started off ****. 64 started off ****.

Are you really this stupid?

 

[Yuna]

Can we all agree not to reply to SiegKnight? He's not even worth it.

 

[Aesir]

^Siegwhatever the **** your name is: Lulz while you have a point, no other fighting game was made by a bitter scrub. Aka Sakurai, he clearly went out of his way to make sure the technical aspect of the game was removed. This is part of Nintendo's new philosophy of creating games for the masses. The fact that anyone can pick up the game and play and not feel discouraged is something Sakurai strives for and he succeeded with brawl.


So while your argument holds water now, I can say with high certainty that nothing much will change in brawl.

Deal with it, the game just isn't that great for competitve purposes.

 

[SiegKnight]

^^^ *to my previous post*

for the only answer to this stupid *** melee vs brawl debate you could get that works in brawls favor. Also, Yuna, shut the hell up. If you have something against me, disprove my logic as opposed to just shutting your senses off to someone. The latter proves you're useless as a person overall.

Its obvious Brawl focuses more on character specific junk than blanket techniques like Melee advocated. Alot of sequels end up this way when they nerf blanket techniques, in alot of fighting games. Its always been history. In games like SF3 they introduced much more realistic sprite detection and advocated basic spacing, when no one thought there was anything to learn. Years later, and theres ****loads of character specific setups and nonsense around.

Dedede's chain grabs and Snake's strategic proxy space control are prime examples of this, as are some other pivot tricks and other things characters have that only *THEY* can use.

No hitstun is the only argument I've seen against Brawl that will still apply once all the characters are fully explored and understood, and its a small and not very relevant one. Hitstun is still there too, just minimalized.

 

[Corigames]

So... what Brawl fanatics are telling me is to give the game more time? Why?

Some times you pick up a game and go, "Wow, I really like this game. I think I'll play the hell out of it!" Is this alright? Shouldn't you give it more time to see if you actually don't like it before you make that decision? I mean, who knows, the game may turn around and fail the crap out of you. Other times, you pick up a game and go, "Wow, I really like this game. I think I'll play the hell out of it!" and it stays good. The game actually follows through and becomes one of your favorite games ever (or so to say).

If both of those cases can be true, why can't I pick up a game an go, "Wow, this game sucks. Why did I buy this again?" You can't change first impressions. If I spent 2 months on this game and still don't like it, chances are, I'M NOT GOING TO F'ing LIKE IT! So, please interwebs, stop telling me to like something I don't. I'm only playing this game because of two reasons. One, a lot of great players quit playing because this game is the definition of a bad sequel. So I have a chance to be well-known at it the first chance I get to paly on a national or international level. And two, because no one plays melee competitively anymore. that's just how it is.

 

[SiegKnight]

I'll tell you this; I don't care if Brawl succeeds or not. Smash, to me, sucks. I don't have respect in my posts or a strong mind in my words when I try to debate, not because I'm a fool, but because I think the series is useless. The only good game out of the lot is Melee, in its current explored form. I think any fighting game that ****s over its fanbase so badly isn't worth it at all in the first place, and the character balance was very 'Marvel.'

But I'm going off of my observation, not blind hope. No matter what developers try, it has a snowballs chance in hell of working. SF3 tried to bind us to basic spacing and done its best to kill competetivism in a different way and for different reasons. It wanted a tourney scene, Ono wanted that. Did it want people using Uriens Aegis to setup for destructive mindgames and Yun's Genei Jin being the pivotal focus of the meta game? No. No no no no. It went through three games to balance itself and still only four characters ended up usable.

Thats a developer that actually knows what he's trying to fight against, and fought with all his knowledge to kill all them tricks. Think Sakurai has a better chance? Don't be a FOOL. Some of the most complex games I've spent like 5 months on with knowledge of a prior game, thinking I knew it all, I 'knew' I knew it all. Heck, I was as adamant about it on whatever board they had up for such games. But then you get some bighead or a japanese player discovering ways to creatively put 2 and 2 together, and focus his game around something ridicolously abusive and open ended.

Thats the basis of Shine setups, the basis of Aegis reflector setups, the basis of Custom Combos in Alpha, the basis of dustloop, the basis of anything that holds dominance in a competetive videogame ever. Its something unintended yet part of the game, open ended, and opens up possibilities in all sorts of directions.

Its often character specific, so please don't blame brawls physics engine?

 

[Aesir]

I'm pretty sure Yuna's disproved you already, as anyone who makes claims such as the ones you're making would easily become cannon fodder for him.

Thats just my assumption though,

 

[Yuna]

I'll tell you this; I don't care if Brawl succeeds or not. Smash, to me, sucks. I don't have respect in my posts or a strong mind in my words when I try to debate, not because I'm a fool, but because I think the series is useless. The only good game out of the lot is Melee, in its current explored form. I think any fighting game that ****s over its fanbase so badly isn't worth it at all in the first place, and the character balance was very 'Marvel.'

Why are you even here then? Did you create an account on Smashboards just to troll?

But I'm going off of my observation, not blind hope. No matter what developers try, it has a snowballs chance in hell of working. SF3 tried to bind us to basic spacing and done its best to kill competetivism in a different way and for different reasons. It wanted a tourney scene, Ono wanted that. Did it want people using Uriens Aegis to setup for destructive mindgames and Yun's Genei Jin being the pivotal focus of the meta game? No. No no no no. It went through three games to balance itself and still only four characters ended up usable.

SF3 is SF3, Brawl is Brawl. One game developer's game does not affect the other, especially when they work entirely different.

Thats a developer that actually knows what he's trying to fight against, and fought with all his knowledge to kill all them tricks. Think Sakurai has a better chance? Don't be a FOOL.

Sakurai deliberately programmed the game in such a way that it ended up ruining competitive viability. He did it to appeal to the greater masses, but at the same time, it also killed competitive viability. The game engine itself is limiting us in such a way that save for discovering game-breaking glitches (which would have to be some major glitches that really break the game), it's not going to change.

Unless we find a whole slew of new glitches (on top of the ones we've already found), that's not going to change. We're been through this again and again.

Ypu bring nothing new to the table, you're quasi-trolling if not outright trolling and apparently, you don't even like Smash. So I say: Go away.

 

[Reaver197]

There's a key difference in between the intents of the designers of each game, and how fully realized their intent was. Most fighting games are made to be competitive, whereas Smash Bros never intentionally was. It was just that design goal was poorly realized in Melee, leading to an actually surprisingly yet unintended deep and competitive game. For Brawl, Sakurai did a very good job in more fully realizing his goals for the Smash Bros series, which included making it less competitive or tech based.

In the end, using other fighters as examples of history doesn't really apply to the Smash Bros series, because they start out with the intent to be competitive, whereas Smash Bros never has. Also, such comparisons does nothing to prove or show any strong competitive gleams in Brawl.

I also would like to put forward the argument I made earilier about Brawl not being able to reward different styles of play, in particular any sort of aggressive play. As far as I can tell, no other seriously competitive game gives little to no reward for trying to play aggressively.

 

[SiegKnight]

assumption in deed. Look, I'm not talking to you. Just the general bystander who wants some know how on their own games potential. Words are words, experience is another thing altogether. I know all the tricks in brawl discovered so far for characters I main. Foxes insane shine jump cancel crap, the chaingrabs, and alot of other naunces too. Its been discovered far more quickly than alot of tricks I've seen in games.

All thats needed is for the community to make practical setups for some of this junk. No results will show for months, but with time, the gameflow is fully controlled and understood. You can direct it into these setups and build a game around it.

I don't give a crap about Yuna's theory fighting.

If the game turns out to be awful on all ends, then it won't be because she could tell it was impossible. No one can tell yet. I'm not an idiot, I know games can turn out useless. Not because its happened before with this many people trying to destroy it up anyway, but because its just possible, unlikely or not.

But I doubt it.

And sf3 is sf3, sure, but setups apply to any fighting game. The only thing that really advocates the impossibility of setups in brawl is the floaty engine, as its hard to direct people into a certain position you'd need to set something up in. And thats... it really.

I think the physics engine can be controlled with time though.

What makes competetivity is simply several dangerous setups you can mediate your game around. That makes it a race to put someone in such a setup. Eg dedede's chaingrab. People in a fighting game mediate their tactics around one or two particularly abusive options that tear up their enemies far more than the other tactics.

They're often unintentional, theres your hint. It applies to card games too and anything else, btw. Once them setups are figured out, its smooth sailing.

 

[orintemple]

Yuna >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Siegknight

I think we are done here.

 

[Yuna]

There's a key difference in between the intents of the designers of each game, and how fully realized their intent was. Most fighting games are made to be competitive, whereas Smash Bros never intentionally was. It was just that design goal was poorly realized in Melee, leading to an actually surprisingly yet unintended deep and competitive game. For Brawl, Sakurai did a very good job in more fully realizing his goals for the Smash Bros series, which included making it less competitive or tech based.

In the end, using other fighters as examples of history doesn't really apply to the Smash Bros series, because they start out with the intent to be competitive, whereas Smash Bros never has. Also, such comparisons does nothing to prove or show any strong competitive gleams in Brawl.

I also would like to put forward the argument I made earilier about Brawl not being able to reward different styles of play, in particular any sort of aggressive play. As far as I can tell, no other seriously competitive game gives little to no reward for trying to play aggressively.

Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen EX. It's not a conventional fighter, but it's quite deep for an anime license game.

They did some mind-boggingly stupid things for EX (the sequel to GNT 4 which introduces tons of new mechanics, techs and cancels to the series, much like Melee). In fact, the transistion between GNT 3 and 4 and 4 and EX are scarily similar to that of 64 -> Melee -> Brawl. Only in GNT's case, they actually wanted to make a good balanced game with depth (I think).

Anyway, in the transistion from EX, they increased gravity. Much like decreasing it in Brawl, it made combos non-existent. Heck, several natural combos wouldn't hit someone fully off a throw or just off the ground at all because they'd fall to the ground before the combos finished. Meanwhile, they made chakra gain ridiculously high. Once you get 75% chakra, it's the equivalent of a Guilty Gear Burst, only in GNT EX, you could get your burst back several times over in a single round.

Among other Brawl-like things, they made everything unsafe after only two hits. This in a game where there is no Low-Mid-High system (much like Smash, but they don't have shieldstabbing) so turtling is already promoted. In GNT4, shieldbreaking was a good strategy but not anymore! Everything is usnafe after two hits (unless the 1st hit is unsafe as well), forcing people to turtle even more and poke with BB and then just stop.

GNTEX is not like Brawl where you can mixup with throws a lot because throws will only hit someone standing completely still (as in: not performing a move. Running counts as being still as well) or who's currently in the startup of their Back B (a counter). You can also break throws by hitting X, Y, A or B at the exact same frame the throw connects.

So it all became a camp- and pokefest. And the GNT-community whined and huffed and puffed and simply threw the darn game in the thrashcan.

Incidentally, GNT4 was released on the Gamecube and GNTEX on the Wii. Scary isn't it?

 

[SiegKnight]

But I doubt it.

And sf3 is sf3, sure, but setups apply to any fighting game. The only thing that really advocates the impossibility of setups in brawl is the floaty engine, as its hard to direct people into a certain position you'd need to set something up in. And thats... it really.

I think the physics engine can be controlled with time though.

What makes competetivity is simply several dangerous setups you can mediate your game around. That makes it a race to put someone in such a setup. Eg dedede's chaingrab. People in a fighting game mediate their tactics around one or two particularly abusive options that tear up their enemies far more than the other tactics.

They're often unintentional, theres your hint. It applies to card games too and anything else, btw. Once them setups are figured out, its smooth sailing.

I CAN BOLD CAPS TOO LOL

Thats what makes competetivity. Sirlin has an article about it I believe, even though I hate his guts, he had a point. Its also an argument that applies to card games, strategy rpgs, and other crap.

Unequal rock paper scissors, I guess is the theory.

If you have even one option more dangerous than your other 2 - or 10 - then the game can be competetive, and you develop strategies around that option, using the others to set it up generally.

Dedede's chain grab is one daaaamn nice one already.