Sakurai and his own Kirby bias

[Quillion]

No, it’s really not. Yes, Kirby Star Allies will focus more on Kirby, but Smash has been good about representing a multitude of different titles in franchises, so why isn’t Kirby the same when his own game shows how much has been created over the years.

As for your point about Hyrule Warriors, Smash does only offer a little less on representation than that game. They both contain references to Ocarina, Twilight, and Skyward Sword, as well as the added titles such as Majora’s Mask, Wind Waker, Spirit Tracks, A Link Between Worlds, and now Breath of The Wild. Outside of the Seasons games, what Zelda title does Hyrule Warriors have that Smash doesn’t have covered with either character designs, assists, or stages?

Compare Hyrule Warriors representation ratio with Smash to Star Allies and the imbalance is clear. Star Allies has a total of 9 games represented by unique characters in the Dream Friends section, only one of those characters has a title represented in Smash being Marx.

Okay, if you're going to prioritize quantity over quality, then in terms of spirits, Kirby has among others Dark Mind, Galacta Knight, Magolor, Sectonia, Susie, and the Mage Sisters.

Kirby even has Ultra Sword and Dedede his masked form just to pay lipservice to the newer games. How is that different from Zelda having all those spirits and just a few palettes to represent some of the other games?

Honestly, I still don't even know what you guys want specifically.

 

[KetchupKaffei]

Kirby Super Star was the last game he made.

Kirby Super Star is like debatably the best Kirby game ever. It rivals with Kirby Crystal Shards for that title. All the other Kirby games afterwards kinda fall under them. Kirby Amazing Mirror, Kirby's Nightmare in Dreamland, Kirby Air Ride, and Kirby Squeak Squad, all great titles, but not as great as Super Star and Crystal Shards.

Kirby Squeak Squad being the last of the Kirby gems, as things became much too painfully easy in the future Kirby games and half the time unoriginal. Making old time fans like me to draw away a bit from the series.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Okay, if you're going to prioritize quantity over quality, then in terms of spirits, Kirby has among others Dark Mind, Galacta Knight, Magolor, Sectonia, Susie, and the Mage Sisters.

Kirby even has Ultra Sword and Dedede his masked form just to pay lipservice to the newer games. How is that different from Zelda having all those spirits and just a few palettes to represent some of the other games?

Honestly, I still don't even know what you guys want specifically.

You don't know what you want because you're refusing to listen.

Yes, we have some spirits. That's good. Guess what? They're just spirits. They're not anything major. Most people agree that spirits are nothing more than jpegs with stat boosts, it's not like they put much effort at all designing them. There wasn't much though put in while making these and you're acting like it was some huge gift from Sakurai.

Kirby "even has" Ultra Sword as his Final Smash. Don't pretend that Final Smashes are something major. They're small, five second cutscenes and some people don't even play with the smash ball on. Looking at all of the content, we only have spirits, final smashes, and some music tracks to represent the majority of Kirby games. The things people care most about: stages, assist trophies, and fighters, are all from the earliest days of the Kirby franchise. Final Smashes aren't "lipservice." You're acting like Sakurai has gone out of his way to represent modern Kirby when all of the major content in this game comes from early games.

How is that different from Zelda: Zelda actually has most of the content it needs to represent its series. Ocarina of Time, The Wind Waker trilogy, A Link to the Past and Breath of the Wild are represented through fighters. Most of the original Zelda games are represented through Hyrule Castle and Temple. Bridge of Eldin represents Twilight Princess. Gerudo Valley also represents OOT, Skyloft represents Skyward Sword, and finally Great Plateau Tower represents Breath of the Wild. Even in the AT's we have a ton of representation. Ghiriahim represents SS, Skull Kid and Moon represent MM, and Midna represents TP.

Kirby? All of the fighters, stages, and assist trophies represent the original games, Super Star, and Nightmare in Dream Land.

Kirby Super Star was the last game he made.

Kirby Super Star is like debatably the best Kirby game ever. It rivals with Kirby Crystal Shards for that title. All the other Kirby games afterwards kinda fall under them. Kirby Amazing Mirror, Kirby's Nightmare in Dreamland, Kirby Air Ride, and Kirby Squeak Squad, all great titles, but not as great as Super Star and Crystal Shards.

Kirby Squeak Squad being the last of the Kirby gems, as things became much too painfully easy in the future Kirby games and half the time unoriginal. Making old time fans like me to draw away a bit from the series.

That's completely subjective. Frankly I'm enjoying modern Kirby games just as much as Super Star. Especially considering the new art direction, aesthetics, music composure and emphasis on characters I'd say there's way more to modern Kirby games than you're acting like. Squeak Squad being the "last Kirby gem" makes no sense unless you genuinely think all Kirby games after it were mediocre.

And aside from that I'm absolutely sure nostalgia from old time fans isn't the only reason there's an appalling lack of modern Kirby content.

 

[KetchupKaffei]

You don't know what you want because you're refusing to listen.

Yes, we have some spirits. That's good. Guess what? They're just spirits. They're not anything major. Most people agree that spirits are nothing more than jpegs with stat boosts, it's not like they put much effort at all designing them. There wasn't much though put in while making these and you're acting like it was some huge gift from Sakurai.

Kirby "even has" Ultra Sword as his Final Smash. Don't pretend that Final Smashes are something major. They're small, five second cutscenes and some people don't even play with the smash ball on. Looking at all of the content, we only have spirits, final smashes, and some music tracks to represent the majority of Kirby games. The things people care most about: stages, assist trophies, and fighters, are all from the earliest days of the Kirby franchise. Final Smashes aren't "lipservice." You're acting like Sakurai has gone out of his way to represent modern Kirby when all of the major content in this game comes from early games.

How is that different from Zelda: Zelda actually has most of the content it needs to represent its series. Ocarina of Time, The Wind Waker trilogy, A Link to the Past and Breath of the Wild are represented through fighters. Most of the original Zelda games are represented through Hyrule Castle and Temple. Bridge of Eldin represents Twilight Princess. Gerudo Valley also represents OOT, Skyloft represents Skyward Sword, and finally Great Plateau Tower represents Breath of the Wild. Even in the AT's we have a ton of representation. Ghiriahim represents SS, Skull Kid and Moon represent MM, and Midna represents TP.

Kirby? All of the fighters, stages, and assist trophies represent the original games, Super Star, and Nightmare in Dream Land.


That's completely subjective. Frankly I'm enjoying modern Kirby games just as much as Super Star. Especially considering the new art direction, aesthetics, music composure and emphasis on characters I'd say there's way more to modern Kirby games than you're acting like. Squeak Squad being the "last Kirby gem" makes no sense unless you genuinely think all Kirby games after it were mediocre.

And aside from that I'm absolutely sure nostalgia from old time fans isn't the only reason there's an appalling lack of modern Kirby content.

Well, it could be but the overwhelming response to Kirby Super Star and the sales can say a ton. It was infact so beloved that there was a remake of the game for the DS and it was also received heavily loved. I didn't say the Kirby games after Squeak Squad was mediocre, you seem to fail to understand that it was just how things were changing for Kirby and how it didn't really appeal like the last ones did. The games without a doubt became much more easier, beginning with Kirby's Epic Yarn. Like I said however, the game is fun, but it doesn't pose much of a challenge. Kirby's return to dreamland was fun, but eventually I kind of grew bored of the stage layouts, however I love banana dee inclusion(please let him be in ultimate).

Notice how I say unoriginal half the time. Because there are times within the new Kirby games that are sorta like copying and pasting. Like the level layout, Green Plains, Snowy Plains, desert kinda plains, lava area

 

[Quillion]

Notice how I say unoriginal half the time. Because there are times within the Kirby games that are sorta like copying and pasting. Like the level layout, Green Plains, Snowy Plains, desert kinda plains, lava area

To be fair, someone else brought this up:

The notion that modern Kirby doesn't warrant a stage because Super Star set the foundation for the series' iconography when Sm4sh introduced a New Super Mario Bros. 2 stage, a Super Mario 3D Land stage, a New Super Mario Bros. U stage and a Super Mario Maker stage is laughable to me.

I think we just need to accept that Kirby really isn't big enough to warrant such a big influx of "recent content" to add to what is already there. I'm sure even Sakurai knows this.

Mario warrants all of those similar "grasslands" stages by virtue of being the biggest video game franchise of all time (actually second to Pokémon in overall merchandising, but surpassing it in pure video game sales). Pokémon has a mix of stadiums and ominous "Pokémon Leagues" for similar reasons.

Now, I'm pretty sure that the whole issue started because of the whole Great Cave Offensive fiasco back in Smash 4. But that was just Sakurai exercising his ability to come up with new stage concepts. Something that the newer Kirby games wouldn't support as well.

Again, I could go for another character for Kirby; I really want another Kirby character. But Kirby just isn't as big as Mario or Pokémon as franchise, nor does it have the luxury that Fire Emblem has in terms of building its characters off of a single template.

 

[Captain Shades]

Okay, if you're going to prioritize quantity over quality, then in terms of spirits, Kirby has among others Dark Mind, Galacta Knight, Magolor, Sectonia, Susie, and the Mage Sisters.

Kirby even has Ultra Sword and Dedede his masked form just to pay lipservice to the newer games. How is that different from Zelda having all those spirits and just a few palettes to represent some of the other games?

Honestly, I still don't even know what you guys want specifically.

Spirits mean nothing..., that’s like saying Golden Sun is as well represented as Mario because all its characters are in as spirits. Zelda is different due to having multiple stages and assists along with costumes that represent multiple titles. What fans want are more assists and stages, maybe even put the 4th member Bandana Dee in as a character. As of right now about 2/3rds of Kirby history is relegated to the smallest references possible.

To be fair, someone else brought this up:



I think we just need to accept that Kirby really isn't big enough to warrant such a big influx of "recent content" to add to what is already there. I'm sure even Sakurai knows this.

Mario warrants all of those similar "grasslands" stages by virtue of being the biggest video game franchise of all time (actually second to Pokémon in overall merchandising, but surpassing it in pure video game sales). Pokémon has a mix of stadiums and ominous "Pokémon Leagues" for similar reasons.

Now, I'm pretty sure that the whole issue started because of the whole Great Cave Offensive fiasco back in Smash 4. But that was just Sakurai exercising his ability to come up with new stage concepts. Something that the newer Kirby games wouldn't support as well.

Again, I could go for another character for Kirby; I really want another Kirby character. But Kirby just isn't as big as Mario or Pokémon as franchise, nor does it have the luxury that Fire Emblem has in terms of building its characters off of a single template.

I think the big enough argument is a little more subjective here. Kirby is up there as one of Nintendo’s biggest franchises that isn’t based around Mario, mainly lagging behind Pokémon and Zelda. Even bringing up the big enough argument, then you must explain why smaller franchises get treated better, such as Fire Emblem which has 5 titles represented in characters alone, or going off the template argument, why does Metroid have more characters and titles represented through that and stages. Samus and Ridley represent Metroid, Dark Samus for Prime, and Zero Suit for Zero Mission. Add in Super, Other M, and Prime for stages and really outside of Fusion and 2, it seems that Metroid practically had its full series covered and represented more titles than the more popular and successful Kirby franchise. (No hate on Metroid, just pointing out its better treatment)

I guess my opinion is, if Metroid can get tons of representation, why shouldn’t a bigger franchise like Kirby, which at this moment stands as having less characters than both FE and Metroid while definitely being the bigger franchise

As for stages, why couldn’t Sakurai pick a more modern title over Super Star. If he wanted a maze-like design, than why not go with the literal maze and Metroidvania style of Amazing Mirror. As for the abysmal side scrolling stage Dream Land, did he really have to pick that over literally any other title. Dream Land 2 could have had the Animal Buddies. Also we literally have a Kirby Smash Bros with Fighters Deluxe, which came out before Smash, could he have not taken ideas from that?

 

[Arthur97]

DK: There could have been a King K. Rool boss, or perhaps something from the recent DKC games.
Metroid: Any form of Ridley or maybe Mother Brain.
Yoshi: Yeah I dunno. Kamek?
Earthbound: Bring Porky back!
Fire Emblem: Grima???
Sonic: Eggman
Street Fighter: M. Bison, c'mon.
Splatoon: DJ Octavio?

Some of those might be problematic as they seemed to be aiming for larger bosses. M.Bison is pretty much another fighter. Ridley and K. Rool literally are. Grima...maybe if they through in lots of "stage" hazards though I might be willing to go for Madeus despite how much I love Awakening. Grima could work ala Giga Bowser though and also serve as an unlock fight.

 

[culumon]

I think we just need to accept that Kirby really isn't big enough to warrant such a big influx of "recent content" to add to what is already there. I'm sure even Sakurai knows this.

Mario warrants all of those similar "grasslands" stages by virtue of being the biggest video game franchise of all time (actually second to Pokémon in overall merchandising, but surpassing it in pure video game sales). Pokémon has a mix of stadiums and ominous "Pokémon Leagues" for similar reasons.

Now, I'm pretty sure that the whole issue started because of the whole Great Cave Offensive fiasco back in Smash 4. But that was just Sakurai exercising his ability to come up with new stage concepts. Something that the newer Kirby games wouldn't support as well.

For what it's worth, I'm not advocating more Kirby grasslands stages for the sake of it. Two is more than enough.

What I am saying is that, despite the New Super Mario Bros. games and 3D Land offering less new iconography than Kirby, Sakurai still saw it fit to give those titles new stages. Representing those games was the evident priority, and the unique gimmicks were retrofitted onto that. And yes, Mario is the most popular series in Smash, it being prioritised over Kirby is just a given, etc. But it's not just Mario.

Zelda got Spirit Tracks and Skyloft. Pokémon got the Unova League, the Kalos League and Prism Tower. DK got Jungle Hijinxs. Mario Kart got Mario Circuit from 8 and Rainbow Road from 7. Metroid got Pyrosphere. Fire Emblem got Arena Ferox. Yoshi got Woolly World. Pikmin got Garden of Hope. Kid Icarus got Reset Bomb Forest and Palutena's Temple. Wario got Gamer. Sonic got Windy Hill Zone.

Every single franchise from 64, Melee and Brawl that returned for Sm4sh and got new games in the interim received stages from their most recent entries. Every single one. F-Zero, EarthBound and Star Fox are the only series to have gotten stages exclusively from older games - the series that hadn't received new installments since Brawl. But for every other franchise, the name of the game was very very evidently "rep newest games first, make stages around that later". The only two stages to muddy those waters are Gerudo Valley - which still could be taken as an Ocarina of Time 3D stage - and Coliseum. But Kirby was the ONLY active franchise to have gone without its newest entries receiving stages in Sm4sh. I doubt that taking the same approach to Kirby as had been done to literally every other active series would have an impossible task - the Lor Starcutter and Another Dimension would surely make for imaginative stages? And yet it was the only series where the intent to prioritising a central concept took precedent over "repping" new games.

Whether or not one could consider this is a meaningful problem in the first place is another question entirely. Prioritising "hey, I have a really cool idea for a stage based on a past game!" over "guess we gotta rep the newest thing in x series" is a good thing, in theory, if it were applied to more than just Kirby. I value creativity far more than I value relevance... but also, when relevance is clearly the factor prioritised in Smash, for every single one of those series except one, that's indicative of something. That's a pattern being broken. What that break in the pattern indicates, and whether or not that even matters in the first place, is going to vary from person to person. I'm not going to lose sleep over it, nor do I think it makes Sakurai some nepotistic hack or anything. It's small potatoes in the grand scheme of things. But I can at the very least sympathise with fans of modern Kirby feeling miffed at the fact that their series is the only one like this. And I don't think Super Star setting the standard for all future Kirby games is a decent enough excuse, because God knows that Super Metroid didn't stop Other M from getting a stage.

Also the fact that Dream Land GB and the Great Cave Offensive are crappy stages on their own merits doesn't help matters.

 

[Deleted member]

First of all, I kinda sorta agree.

I think that if we actually got any major content from Kirby (such as a new character or stage) it would indeed be representative of more modern Kirby games.

But of the stuff we got, it's either negligible or secondary imo. Yes, we did get the Marx boss fight, but we also gotta remember what kind of impact Marx has had as a boss on the future franchise as a whole.

I can definitely tell that a loooot of future final bosses took inspiration from his oddly versatile moveset.

And that aside, he's singleplayer content only.

The spirits representation I dunno if I care too much about. It's accurate to your claims that more modern characters are delegated to a spirit role rather than something more meaningful, but I think the spirit fights against them also means something in terms of development. Chef Kawasaki was a welcome assist trophy for me, since he kinda is a callback to Kirby's better final smash from Brawl and he's also a cute nostalgic character.

But we are indeed missing something that's post Return to Dreamland. Robobot is a game I find to be rather important in the grand scheme of things, as well as Return to Dreamland and Star Allies. And for a franchise that Sakurai created, we haven't really seen any new fighters since Brawl. Which is odd. Not too disappointing, but still odd.

There are a lot of good modern Kirby representative options, but in the end I don't think it's that big of a deal. That is, I basically agree with you in regards to the more meaningful stuff, but it doesn't really bother me that much.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

To be fair, someone else brought this up:



I think we just need to accept that Kirby really isn't big enough to warrant such a big influx of "recent content" to add to what is already there. I'm sure even Sakurai knows this.

Mario warrants all of those similar "grasslands" stages by virtue of being the biggest video game franchise of all time (actually second to Pokémon in overall merchandising, but surpassing it in pure video game sales). Pokémon has a mix of stadiums and ominous "Pokémon Leagues" for similar reasons.

Now, I'm pretty sure that the whole issue started because of the whole Great Cave Offensive fiasco back in Smash 4. But that was just Sakurai exercising his ability to come up with new stage concepts. Something that the newer Kirby games wouldn't support as well.

Again, I could go for another character for Kirby; I really want another Kirby character. But Kirby just isn't as big as Mario or Pokémon as franchise, nor does it have the luxury that Fire Emblem has in terms of building its characters off of a single template.

Aside from the fact that Kirby games have sold like hot cakes recently and certainly warrant at least some form of decent representation.....

It's less about warranting stages and more about original content. We have like a billion overworld styled or themed Mario stages. A Bowser's castle stage or something like Beat Block galaxy with changing platforms would be way cooler than what we currently have. We have three stages that are all Green Greens style which is super redundant. If we could get something from a recent Kirby game but also a unique location that would be way better than anything we currently have.

 

[GhostYB]

I'm really tired of it honestly, the games still great but as a Kirby fan it's painful to see just how unbalanced it's representation is. Every significant comes from the same 3 games. The lack of modern representation is tiring.


Every stage
All 3 assist trophy
The boss

Even the closest to a modern remix is for a game over ten years old.


Kirby is doing better than ever and just concluded a wonderful era, but you'd hardly know it looking at Smash, everything modern is just small things like ported songs, some spirits and a couple of colours. The most significant thing modern Kirby has gotten was the final smashes.


Even if a character is too much to ask for regarding Bandana Dee, we couldn't even get a stage. I know an Epic Yarn stage was "planned" but why when it was decided that it would become Woolly World did you decide to make Great Cave Offensive? Really?

Even Spirit Battles, I only remember encountering Mage Sisters, Susie and Magolor


At this point, the only part of Kirby Super Star that Sakurai hasn't included a major reference too was Dyna blade.


Surely it's not too much to ask for a stage from the modern era is it? Smash Wii U gave a modern stage to every franchise with a modern game except for Kirby. It's just absurd at this point.

I agree but it's ironic considering he's not even that much of a good character in most smash games

 

[KetchupKaffei]

Aside from the fact that Kirby games have sold like hot cakes recently and certainly warrant at least some form of decent representation.....

It's less about warranting stages and more about original content. We have like a billion overworld styled or themed Mario stages. A Bowser's castle stage or something like Beat Block galaxy with changing platforms would be way cooler than what we currently have. We have three stages that are all Green Greens style which is super redundant. If we could get something from a recent Kirby game but also a unique location that would be way better than anything we currently have.

As a Kirby main and lover, I love the all the Kirby stages and I think each one is very unique and memorable. Great Cave for me is not as much of course, but that's because I rarely choose giant stages for 8 player smash when I'm playing only up to 4 players online. But when I happen to do play it, it is quite fun.

The only thing I would ask for however if we had the option to get something new from the Kirby series, would have to be without a doubt Banana Dee. But I have a small feeling he may not be in, as I feel Nintendo(since they picked the DLC roster) chose more extreme and unexpected fighters judging how they picked Joker.

But hey, a Kirby fan can dream.

 

[Nepht]

I'm really tired of it honestly, the games still great but as a Kirby fan it's painful to see just how unbalanced it's representation is. Every significant comes from the same 3 games. The lack of modern representation is tiring.


Every stage
All 3 assist trophy
The boss

Even the closest to a modern remix is for a game over ten years old.


Kirby is doing better than ever and just concluded a wonderful era, but you'd hardly know it looking at Smash, everything modern is just small things like ported songs, some spirits and a couple of colours. The most significant thing modern Kirby has gotten was the final smashes.


Even if a character is too much to ask for regarding Bandana Dee, we couldn't even get a stage. I know an Epic Yarn stage was "planned" but why when it was decided that it would become Woolly World did you decide to make Great Cave Offensive? Really?

Even Spirit Battles, I only remember encountering Mage Sisters, Susie and Magolor


At this point, the only part of Kirby Super Star that Sakurai hasn't included a major reference too was Dyna blade.


Surely it's not too much to ask for a stage from the modern era is it? Smash Wii U gave a modern stage to every franchise with a modern game except for Kirby. It's just absurd at this point.

Its just how it is. I wanted Susie playable in Smash but Nintendo most likely told the devs 3 Kirby reps only. Those reps will always be Kirby, King Dedede and Meta Knight they are the icons of the series so will always get in. Nintendo is at fault here there are lesser Nintendo IPs with more reps in Smash and I find that anger inducing.

 

[Arthur97]

Also the fact that Dream Land GB and the Great Cave Offensive are crappy stages on their own merits doesn't help matters.

Hey now, don't go insulting GB Dream Land. Though, a general GB stage that did more than Kirby may have been better.

 

[Opossum]

Well, Rathalos and Dracula are my beefs. Galleon is odd, but this game is clearly about Smash anyway, not Nintendo, not games in general.

I agree, Rathalos and especially Dracula are odd picks. I know Castlevania and Monster Hunter are closely associated with Nintendo, but they just feel odd especially since there are way more iconic 3rd party picks for bosses. Seriously Sakurai, you have a villain almost as iconic as Bowser and decide not to use him for Sonic’s classic mode boss. Eggman should have come way before Dracula as a boss if 3rd parties are to get bosses.

I never thought I'd see the day where someone claimed having Dracula as a boss was a bad decision. Castlevania is completely centered around Dracula. His boss fights are iconic. He's a villain that outright transcends video games due to being public domain. To act like Dracula is some no-name who shouldn't have been in is baffling.

Yes, we have some spirits. That's good. Guess what? They're just spirits. They're not anything major. Most people agree that spirits are nothing more than jpegs with stat boosts, it's not like they put much effort at all designing them. There wasn't much though put in while making these and you're acting like it was some huge gift from Sakurai.

Kirby "even has" Ultra Sword as his Final Smash. Don't pretend that Final Smashes are something major. They're small, five second cutscenes and some people don't even play with the smash ball on. Looking at all of the content, we only have spirits, final smashes, and some music tracks to represent the majority of Kirby games. The things people care most about: stages, assist trophies, and fighters, are all from the earliest days of the Kirby franchise. Final Smashes aren't "lipservice." You're acting like Sakurai has gone out of his way to represent modern Kirby when all of the major content in this game comes from early games.

It's easy to say modern Kirby has nothing if you disregard the stuff it does have. Final Smashes ARE major. Like it or not, a Final smash is an attack in a character's arsenal.

 

[Arthur97]

I never thought I'd see the day where someone claimed having Dracula as a boss was a bad decision. Castlevania is completely centered around Dracula. His boss fights are iconic. He's a villain that outright transcends video games due to being public domain. To act like Dracula is some no-name who shouldn't have been in is baffling.

It's easy to say modern Kirby has nothing if you disregard the stuff it does have. Final Smashes ARE major. Like it or not, a Final smash is an attack in a character's arsenal.

I act like he doesn't belong. The new kid on the block gets a boss (and with it a while adventure area), meanwhile other series both first and third party get nothing.

 

[NintenRob]

Bandana Dee is among my most wanted, but you know I would have been satisfied with a stage and remix, and I understand this probably wasn't the game for it since most franchises didn't get new stages, but we couldn't even get an assist trophy (or new remix)

We really should have gotten something from Return to Dreamland last game

 

[Opossum]

I act like he doesn't belong. The new kid on the block gets a boss (and with it a while adventure area), meanwhile other series both first and third party get nothing.

It's fairly clear to me that they were going for aesthetic variety. Castlevania's gothic fantasy vibe and incredibly iconic labyrinthine eponymous castle gave aesthetic variety. Add onto that the fact that Dracula's boss fights have incorporated multiple phases since their induction and it gave a ton of material to work with.

If you go through the trouble of licensing Castlevania, why wouldn't you pull whatever you can from it? Honestly the only third party boss that would've even come close would've been Eggman.

 

[Arthur97]

It's fairly clear to me that they were going for aesthetic variety. Castlevania's gothic fantasy vibe and incredibly iconic labyrinthine eponymous castle gave aesthetic variety. Add onto that the fact that Dracula's boss figs have incorporated multiple phases since their induction and it gave a ton of material to work with.

If you go through the trouble of licensing Castlevania, why wouldn't you pull whatever you can from it? Honestly the only third party boss that would've even come close would've been Eggman.

And Eggman would have been great. Or Wily.

Metroid also could have provided a multi-phase boss.

As for odd licensing, they licenced Rathalos and some music...and that's about it. Clearly, maximizing all their licences was not top priority.

 

[UltimateXsniper]

I act like he doesn't belong. The new kid on the block gets a boss (and with it a while adventure area), meanwhile other series both first and third party get nothing.

To be fair, smash has been more about a celebration of gaming and they've been more accepting about 3rd parties with each title. I think Dracula is a fine pick. Rathlalos kind of fits but definitely would of prefer a boss from any other 3rd party franchise that's playable at least.

 

[Arthur97]

To be fair, smash has been more about a celebration of gaming and they've been more accepting about 3rd parties with each title. I think Dracula is a fine pick. Rathlalos kind of fits but definitely would of prefer a boss from any other 3rd party franchise that's playable at least.

No it's not. This game is about Smash, let's not kid ourselves. Even if it weren't the sheer disproportionate amount of Nintendo content is still there.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I agree with this thread, though about characters I think that Magolor would be a better representative of the modern era than Bandana Waddle Dee.
Another Dimension and the ancients have been a major plot/lore element of all the modern Kirby games (excluding maybe Triple Deluxe, where anyway Another Dimension was still a Kirby Fighters stage), and while Magolor (who is directly associated with Another Dimension) has been playable only once, he's still considered as an important character for his own merits and not just for being playable (he's kinda the Rosalina of Modern Kirby; Another Dimension is to Magolor what the galaxy/gravity gimmick is to Rosalina).

If you ask me, in order to represent the modern era, I would still put Bandana Waddle Dee in the game, but as an assist trophy, replacing Knuckle Joe with him completely, and I would put Magolor in as playable instead (as much as the fans want the other way, I think that this is the options that makes the most sense).

Also there is nothing in Smash that represents Kirby's "art" games, such as Dream Land 3 and the crayon graphics, Canvas Curse's art style, Rainbow Curse and the clay world, and Epic Yarn's fabric. That has been a major recurring element in the series and it's not represented... Yoshi has his world of wool and cardboard represented in Smash, the Woolly World and Yoshi Story stages, why can't Kirby have a clay stage or a paint stage from Canvas Curse, or that cursed Epic Yarn stage that got scrapped?

And speaking of the Dark Matter trilogy, the factory on Shiver Star (Kirby 64) is one of the most iconic locations from the Kirby series; you can argue that it's a mechanical stage like the Halberd, though it's still a very iconic and well known location, and its music is even more iconic and recurring than the location itself. Why it's not represented in Smash yet?
Also at least one character from the Dark Matter trilogy should definitely be playable; we need modern Kirby representation offcourse, but the Dark Matter trilogy is half of the Dream Collection:

the other half being more than well enough represented in Smash already.
(I'd definitely go with Adeleine for this, though the animal friends are also a good option, considering how they were also featured in spin-offs such as Star Stacker. I prefer Adeleine though because with her drawing skills she can represent many more characters and game elements - potentially including the Animal Friends and Dark Matter - simply by drawing and summoning them).

An art-related stage, Another Dimension and the Factory are IMO the biggest lacks of Kirby representation in Smash so far (stage-wise), and we were very close of getting an Epic Yarn stage to fill the art-related slot; we got a Yoshi Story 3.0 stage instead.
Then, a character from the Dark Matter trilogy (+ 1 assist trophy and other content representing the trilogy) and a character from the modern series (+ at least 1 assist trophy and other content to represent the modern games).
This content should have been added starting with Smash 4, not all in one game; yet, in 2 Smash games, we have got nothing of this.

 

[Sabertooth]

I just realized reading this thread that Donkey Kong is pretty much in the exact same boat. All characters, stages, and the 1 Assist Trophy can be dated back to the very first Country, even if Jungle Japes is allegedly based on DK64. There's absolutely nothing from the Retro Studios or PAON games except for spirits and some ripped music tracks. Obviously it's not for the same reasons as Kirby since Sakurai never worked on DK, but it's something to think about. Dixie Kong and Bandee would go a long way toward acknowledging the progress that both series have made through the years.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Why is everyone acting like we only need one fighter to represent Modern Kirby? This has been by consensus for a while:

The Kirby series should have:

• The four recurring characters ( and BDee)
• Another recurring protagonist from early Kirby (Gooey, Adeline, etc.)
• A villain from early Kirby (Probably just Marx)
• Any of the villain/protagonists from modern Kirby (Magolor, Taranza, Susie, etc.)

Personally I feel like that represents both early Kirby and modern Kirby pretty well with 1-2 true villains in the mix (because let's face it King Dedede and Meta Knight have been less of villains lately).

 

[Captain Shades]

I just realized reading this thread that Donkey Kong is pretty much in the exact same boat. All characters, stages, and the 1 Assist Trophy can be dated back to the very first Country, even if Jungle Japes is allegedly based on DK64. There's absolutely nothing from the Retro Studios or PAON games except for spirits and some ripped music tracks. Obviously it's not for the same reasons as Kirby since Sakurai never worked on DK, but it's something to think about. Dixie Kong and Bandee would go a long way toward acknowledging the progress that both series have made through the years.

Not to discredit you, but you guys did have a level for DKC Returns in the Wii U game, and Jungle Beat had a stage in Brawl. I know the stages are missing in Ultimate, but Sakurai did at least attempt to give modern DK more representation, it just so happened that the stages didn’t work out. I do agree though, DK and really the other Mario spin-off titles could be treated better, though I’d argue that WarioWare is in a worse boat than DK as not even Wario seems all that accurate to his own titles, and the series seems to be glossed over every time.

I will also agree that Dixie Kong needs to be in Smash, she feels like one of those missing member types being the only main protagonist of the DKC trilogy to not be in. Add in Bandana Dee for the missing 4th member of the Kirby crew, and Impa as the missing Hyrule Warrior (or you know, the only Zelda character outside of the main 3 to appear in more than 2 main line titles) and I feel Smash would be more complete in a sense.

I agree with this thread, though about characters I think that Magolor would be a better representative of the modern era than Bandana Waddle Dee.
Another Dimension and the ancients have been a major plot/lore element of all the modern Kirby games (excluding maybe Triple Deluxe, where anyway Another Dimension was still a Kirby Fighters stage), and while Magolor (who is directly associated with Another Dimension) has been playable only once, he's still considered as an important character for his own merits and not just for being playable (he's kinda the Rosalina of Modern Kirby; Another Dimension is to Magolor what the galaxy/gravity gimmick is to Rosalina).

Ehh... Bandana Dee is still pretty important. He has been given quite a bit of characterization over the years and feels like the Kirby development teams personal OC of sorts since they were able to mold him into an original character unlike the already established 3. I think it’s pretty clear that HAL wants Bandana Dee to be the official 4th member and be seen as a character that stands amongst Kirby, Meta Knight, and King Dedede, so I don’t feel an assist would make sense for a character built up to stand with the greats and one that kinda represents the new era starting in 2009.

Why is everyone acting like we only need one fighter to represent Modern Kirby? This has been by consensus for a while:

The Kirby series should have:

• The four recurring characters ( and BDee)
• Another recurring protagonist from early Kirby (Gooey, Adeline, etc.)
• A villain from early Kirby (Probably just Marx)
• Any of the villain/protagonists from modern Kirby (Magolor, Taranza, Susie, etc.)

Personally I feel like that represents both early Kirby and modern Kirby pretty well with 1-2 true villains in the mix (because let's face it King Dedede and Meta Knight have been less of villains lately).

I personally believe Kirby needs more characters, I think people are just trying to think realistically. As Sabertooth put it, DK is the closest series to the situation we’re in and it took years to get both Diddy and K Rool, and even still they are missing the all important female member of the Kong family, Dixie. I feel Kirby fans have been backed into a corner where they feel that it’s one character or nothing. Also, you should add a Meta Knight echo to your list as Dark, Galacta, or Morpho can easily use the Meta move set.

I never thought I'd see the day where someone claimed having Dracula as a boss was a bad decision. Castlevania is completely centered around Dracula. His boss fights are iconic. He's a villain that outright transcends video games due to being public domain. To act like Dracula is some no-name who shouldn't have been in is baffling.

Dracula’s more known for movies, books, and tv though, not video games if we are to take Smash as a celebration of gaming. I should also say that it more has to do with there being more ‘iconic’ video game bosses they could choose from if they were to go third party and only have two as it seems. Like I said, why not of Egg Man when he is a character that is practically as well known as Bowser and has tons of material to work with. Dr. Wily and M. Bison could have also been bosses that represent video games. I think Dracula is cool, but could have been someone different, I think me and others are just mad that the new kid on the block, Castlevania, is getting better treatment than even bigger and more historically relevant characters like Sonic who has been in Smash since Brawl.

Honestly the bosses overall were kinda disappointing. Other than the fact that Master and Crazy Hand filled way to many Classic Mode boss slots,I feel some bosses could have been different. I wish Galleom was replaced with another character because he feels so odd and such a random pick from Brawl. If they wanted a generic Brawl boss, why not Tabuu, or why not choose a boss that has some relevance to the franchises in the game like Rayquaza or Porky. Third party could have had better bosses, especially seeing as how Sakurai included spirits from Ubisoft but nothing else, like why not have a boss battle against Rabbid Kong or something like that.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I just realized reading this thread that Donkey Kong is pretty much in the exact same boat. All characters, stages, and the 1 Assist Trophy can be dated back to the very first Country, even if Jungle Japes is allegedly based on DK64. There's absolutely nothing from the Retro Studios or PAON games except for spirits and some ripped music tracks. Obviously it's not for the same reasons as Kirby since Sakurai never worked on DK, but it's something to think about. Dixie Kong and Bandee would go a long way toward acknowledging the progress that both series have made through the years.

Wait, was Jungle Hijinxs from Smash 4 from early DK games?

 

[$.A.F.]

You have become a parody of yourself. Do you really think a completely clueless newbie can handle Cloud's Limit system?! At least as Kirby, you can flail around and do semi-decently in low-level play, and he even has multiple jumps so he can save himself after bumbling straight off a cliff.

r/woooosh

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I just realized reading this thread that Donkey Kong is pretty much in the exact same boat. All characters, stages, and the 1 Assist Trophy can be dated back to the very first Country, even if Jungle Japes is allegedly based on DK64. There's absolutely nothing from the Retro Studios or PAON games except for spirits and some ripped music tracks. Obviously it's not for the same reasons as Kirby since Sakurai never worked on DK, but it's something to think about. Dixie Kong and Bandee would go a long way toward acknowledging the progress that both series have made through the years.

Donkey Kong is not very well represented, but it's still decently repredented. It got a DKCR stage in Smash 4 (even though it has not returned) and now it has King K Rool. The absence of Dixie Kong is ridicolous but that's pretty much all the franchise needs: Dixie Kong and maybe a Tropical Freeze stage.
They even represented the Donkey Kong arcade game with a stage.

Kirby's situation is much worse.

To be honest, even Mario would need a Bowser's Castle stage since the beginning, and the fact that's missing is ridicolous too.

Why is everyone acting like we only need one fighter to represent Modern Kirby? This has been by consensus for a while:

The Kirby series should have:

• The four recurring characters ( and BDee)
• Another recurring protagonist from early Kirby (Gooey, Adeline, etc.)
• A villain from early Kirby (Probably just Marx)
• Any of the villain/protagonists from modern Kirby (Magolor, Taranza, Susie, etc.)

Personally I feel like that represents both early Kirby and modern Kirby pretty well with 1-2 true villains in the mix (because let's face it King Dedede and Meta Knight have been less of villains lately).

If I had to decide, I would add all the Dream Friends to Smash, plus Dark Matter Blade and Galacta Knight, and maybe Queen Sectonia and Chef Kawasaki (playable) too.
The Kirby series has countless cool characters with unique skills, the problem is that they are too many, and I can't see the Kirby series getting more than 5 reps anytime soon.
I know that Fire Emblem has, well, 7, but 4 of them are clones and semiclones; all the Kirby characters would be unique.
Though, I agree that only 1 newcomer would not be enough to represent all the various aspects of the Kirby series.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And here I am thinking that Bandana Dee is the only one we need.

Let's focus on one at a time guys.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

And here I am thinking that Bandana Dee is the only one we need.

Let's focus on one at a time guys.

but why should I focus on Bandana Dee when I don't like him and I prefer Adeleine instead...
I think everyone should focus on their favorites and not on the one who is seen as more likely.

What we should focus on is asking for more Kirby representation that doesn't come from Sakurai's games, not just fighters but stages and assist trophies too.
No matter what or who, as long as it doesn't come from Kirby's Dream Land, Kirby's Adventure, Kirby Superstar or Kirby's Air Ride (as much as Marx would be cool, I'd prefer other characters simply because Marx comes from Kirby Superstar and Kirby Superstar is already overrepresented).

 

[Mogisthelioma]

And here I am thinking that Bandana Dee is the only one we need.

Let's focus on one at a time guys.

We've been doing that since 2008 and we've gotten nothing. Kirby fans need to dream bigger. There's a reason Isaac fans haven't given up yet.

 

[Opossum]

We've been doing that since 2008 and we've gotten nothing. Kirby fans need to dream bigger. There's a reason Isaac fans haven't given up yet.

"Asking for one thing has yielded no results. Now we should ask for everything so there's even more of a reason for them to ignore the demand!"

Please tell me how that logic makes any sense. It's like asking to borrow five dollars from someone, them declining, and then asking them for twenty dollars instead.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

"Asking for one thing has yielded no results. Now we should ask for everything so there's even more of a reason for them to ignore the demand!"

Please tell me how that logic makes any sense. It's like asking to borrow five dollars from someone, them declining, and then asking them for twenty dollars instead.

Well clearly if we've been diligent and thoughtful, aside from Kirby's incredible popularity, there should be at least some form of recognition.

I made that comment mainly on the speculation that BDee's not in ultimate due to a lack of priority in the extremely limited newcomer selection. I'm sure if we had done more and BDee ended up more popular something would have happened.

 

[Captain Shades]

Well clearly if we've been diligent and thoughtful, aside from Kirby's incredible popularity, there should be at least some form of recognition.

I made that comment mainly on the speculation that BDee's not in ultimate due to a lack of priority in the extremely limited newcomer selection. I'm sure if we had done more and BDee ended up more popular something would have happened.

Not really. BD was up there in popularity with K Rool and seemed to be a dominant force in Japan, I just don’t think popularity was much of a factor when picking characters. Outside of K Rool, and maybe Ridley, most characters can be explained as being icons of recent titles: Isabelle, Incineroar, and Inkling. Simon and Richter were pretty much Sakurai picks as the last time they were really popular within Smash speculation was just when people were salty Konami was being represented by Snake instead of a bigger Nintendo icon.

 

[Opossum]

Not really. BD was up there in popularity with K Rool and seemed to be a dominant force in Japan, I just don’t think popularity was much of a factor when picking characters. Outside of K Rool, and maybe Ridley, most characters can be explained as being icons of recent titles: Isabelle, Incineroar, and Inkling. Simon and Richter were pretty much Sakurai picks as the last time they were really popular within Smash speculation was just when people were salty Konami was being represented by Snake instead of a bigger Nintendo icon.

Sakurai outright said Castlevania polled well in one of his columns. All it shows is that our little fan polls don't represent the big picture.

There's also Chrom and Dark Samus, who were added explicitly due to their popularity.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Not really. BD was up there in popularity with K Rool and seemed to be a dominant force in Japan, I just don’t think popularity was much of a factor when picking characters. Outside of K Rool, and maybe Ridley, most characters can be explained as being icons of recent titles: Isabelle, Incineroar, and Inkling. Simon and Richter were pretty much Sakurai picks as the last time they were really popular within Smash speculation was just when people were salty Konami was being represented by Snake instead of a bigger Nintendo icon.

Hold on, KKR a dominant force in Japan? Wasn't he popular in the West too?

 

[Sabertooth]

I know it's a little different with DK seeing as we got Rumble Falls and Jungle Hijinx, and I hate to be picky, but those stages aren't in Ultimate so I really don't count them. I'd love to get them back as even just a Battlefield form for each would be tremendous.

I want more Kirby characters not because Kirby as a series needs more or anything, but because Kirby has dope characters and I want them in Smash. Give me literally any Dream Friend, any main villain, any spin-off character. They're all gold and the fact that they're ignored is criminal.

 

[Captain Shades]

Hold on, KKR a dominant force in Japan? Wasn't he popular in the West too?

I should clarify, BD was a huge character in Japan as Kirby is extremely popular with the Japanese audience. Polls show that he wasn’t far behind K Rool, who seemed to be a world leader when it came to character picks. Either way, both were extremely popular across the globe, it just so happens that K Rool was in first whereas Bandana Dee was either 2nd or 3rd.

I know it's a little different with DK seeing as we got Rumble Falls and Jungle Hijinx, and I hate to be picky, but those stages aren't in Ultimate so I really don't count them. I'd love to get them back as even just a Battlefield form for each would be tremendous.

I want more Kirby characters not because Kirby as a series needs more or anything, but because Kirby has dope characters and I want them in Smash. Give me literally any Dream Friend, any main villain, any spin-off character. They're all gold and the fact that they're ignored is criminal.

I mentioned that when I commented, but yeah, DK is lacking now. I guess it’s just better to see that Sakurai tried to represent the modern era throughout two titles rather than act like it doesn’t exist for 3 generations of Smash.

 

[Arthur97]

I'll admit, I'm surprised K. Rool had much of a following at all in Japan given he is very much a Western addition to the landscape.

 

[Quillion]

As Iko MattOrr said, we need to admit that we just expect Dee to be in Smash, not necessarily want him. He really has no memorable qualities other than HAL pushing him.