Roster Discussion Thread (Closed)

[FlareHabanero]

Donkey Kong was never a Mario character, though.

Except for the times he was part of the Mario series.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Saki from "Sin and Punishment" highly deserves to be in smash4.
Besides, he is an assist trophy character after all. -_^♭

Saki is more gender confused than Marth!

 

[Deleted member]

Hmm, so it appears that Smash 4 has finally gotten a forum to itself, but I've already said my peace on characters in the Smash Bros. 4 thread that was once on and I don't have much else to say for now. I will make three posts before I return to my hiatus from Smash 4 discussion (which I will leave from once we get a trailer, whenever that'll be). This is my last post for awhile. I made one on Zoroark and another on Mega Man in their respective support thread, now for this one.

I love Smash (obvious). It is my favorite video game franchise so far and the only game I am anticipating at the moment. After Smash 4 is out, I will not be following video games anymore. The excitement that was once there has burned out and has moved to movies and TV shows (mostly anime). So I hope this ends with a bang and not a whimper, so my expectations are very high in general.

If people want to hear my thoughts on what I picked for my prediction roster, it's here. BTW, I'm predicting 6th gen instead of Victini. I will post this again as I do not expect my roster to change until release. Here are some characters I think have a realistic shot of being in that I hope are included:

- Mii
- Mewtwo
- Saki
- Samurai Goroh
- Krystal
- Duck Hunt Dog
- King K. Rool
- Toad

And most of all, Mega Man.

Those are my highly wanted characters that would get me hyped for this game. There are others I would like to see, but they are either unrealistic or not as high of a priority.

Regarding expectations for roster, we have to be careful with them. This doesn't mean try to keep your expectations as low as possible as after all, we don't want to be walking around saying "Lucario will unfortunately be replaced by Zoroark and Ike with Krom" in a depressing mood. But we have to be reasonable. There is no way we are getting more than 59 characters in the next game (transformations included) and we probably won't get more than 56 characters (again, transformation included). I would expect somewhere between 51-56 characters. Not too high, not too low. Possible to be disappointed, especially if you're very optimistic, but let's face it, disappointment is likely going to happen, so don't avoid it, just try to be reasonable with expectations.

Speaking of why I use transformations included, we have to remember that Sakurai takes into account transformations when including characters. Pokemon Trainer in Sakurai's eyes count as three characters, not as one and he sees the roster as expanding to 26 in Melee and 39 in Brawl. Whatever number we get he will see in transformations. It would be a good idea to get into the habit of including transformations in character counts when making rosters or discussing series with transformations included (including series that has a chance to get transformations characters, such as Pokemon and Super Mario Bros. (although slim, still possible)).

The thing I don't understand with the recent Namco-Bandai teaming up with Sakurai bananza is how this relates to characters. There is no indication that they'll be bringing in-game content to the game other than game play (which is what WE should be talking about in regards to Namco-Bandai as that's where the majority of their impact on the game will take place) and Japanese are moderate, so just because they are working with Sakurai doesn't mean we're getting them. As far as I'm concern, I think the chances of us getting a Namco character is slim and if there is one, it'll be Pac-Man. For third-parties in general, if they do return, I expect to see Mega Man in, which I go in depth about in the Mega Man thread.

I would like to take the time to ask all Namco-Bandai characters supporters to be careful with assuming that a company taking part in the game means characters. This was a mistake I made with Victini when I assumed that because Junichi Masuda had it as his favorite Pokemon that it gave him a fair shot (hint: Victini doesn't have a flying fling of a chance, let's not kid ourselves). Seriously regret putting so much into someone as impossible as Victini, although if the impossible were to happen, I would not be opposed to Victini (as opposed to the probable 5th gen choice Zoroark... ugh...).

While a Namco-Bandai rep has more chances than Victini, it isn't a likely situation. It is in the same situation as it was a month ago and I don't see Pac-Man or anyone else getting the support needed for Sakurai to get one in by fan demand and I don't see Namco-Bandai expressing interest in one.

Also, try not to "win" debates. All it's going to do is lead into flame wars that accomplish nothing and turn people off of discussing Smash 4. ChronoBound, Starphoenix (kinda), and HyperFalcon are the only pre-Melee people left because everyone else have either gotten tired of Smash or have had it with the wars. We should be glad that they will be in present for one last time and it would be a great opportunity for people to go to the link above and read the Super Smash Bros. Wii-U thread. I was extremely active until February, 2012 and posted from April, 2012-June, 2012 on that thread, so I know a lot about these people. If you are going to debate, focus on getting your point across and once you have said your point, don't push it and turn it into an argument. Just let it go and do something else (whenever that is go to other Smash 4 topics or other stuffs in life).

I certainly didn't expect the Smash 4 thread to open so early. What I thought was going to happen was that the Smash Bros. Wii-U thread would last until the reveals of characters. But at least that gives me a lot more to read once I return. And when I do, I have plans for the Smash 4 forum and it'll be probably some of my favorite memories on video game boards, regardless of how crazy it gets and how the roster turns out.

Until that time comes, time for me to jet. If anyone wants to talk to me, I'm going to be on YouTube under astarisborn94 where I do videos on Toonami and commentaries. Eventually, I will expand to other stuffs and make Smash videos once I start getting into Smash discussion again.

Stay gold.

Bang.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Except for the times he was part of the Mario series.

You mean when Mario was part of the Donkey Kong series. FYI, Mario was a DK character first.

DK is a GUEST character in the Mario games. He's not an actual Mario character and never was and never will be.

Same with every DK character. They aren't Mario characters and never will be.

Geno IS a Mario character because he's only in Mario games. He also originated in them. He just wasn't made by Nintendo.

^ Well, I am a more tolerant person, SSBF. Thanks.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

@Super Smash Bros. Fan: You could always repost your roster here instead of redirecting users to a locked thread. There's also the Roster Prediction Display Thread, but that's for if you want to show off your roster.

 

[JavaCroc]

I updated my roster and will re-post it once. If I change it again, I won't repost it. As I said before, this is a personal whims roster and thus is not necessarily made with logic or reason - it's just what I'd like to see (and possibly what I'd actually choose if I were developing SSB4).

CHANGES:

• Replaced Captain Syrup for Paper Mario (now there's TWO Mario alternates. Horrible. )
• Swapped Victini for Zoroark. I honestly don't care about which 5th-gen Pokemon gets in. But having Zoroark, Mewtwo, and Lucario on the same roster looked interesting to me.
• Added Dark Samus and Krom.

Answers to possible questions:

• Layout? Look at Melee's roster layout.
• Mewtwo's position? I don't know why the Roster Maker keeps putting him out of position.
• Dr. Mario below rest of Mario series? In my roster he represents the Puzzle League series along with Lip.
• And to clarify, Paper Mario would also represent his own series of games.

Starting Roster

Full Roster

 

[xXIke-SamaXx]

If we had these 3 categories for Smash and it seems Fire Emblem fits it very well..

it will be like this

Power: Ike>Krom>Marth

Speed:Marth>Krom>Ike

Reach: Krom>Ike>Marth

where would Roy fit ? tell me guys ? his role is filled with the existence of Ike if not Ike it will be Krom , I can't imagine Sakurai kicking Ike and putting Roy in or putting Roy in and not put Krom specially when Krom is gaining popularity.....we might have this sort categorization:

Damage: Krom+heavy weight

Knockback:Ike+Reach

Speed:Marth+Reach and Lyn+attack speed and a bow



Still Roy can't fit these slots, because he isn't portrayed as a fast character.

 

[JordantheGiant]

What newcomers do you guys think will be revealed in the trailer? Like Metaknight, Pit, Wario, ZSS & Snake (am I missing anyone?).

I think Toad, Starfy, Little Mac & Ridley are all quality options.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Well there's obviously Mario, Link, Kirby, and Pikachu. In terms of newcomers, Takamaru, Starfy, Little Mac, and Isaac could be a good start.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Newcomers?

Ridley, Bowser Jr./Shadow Mario or Toad(both, or technically all 3 great choices), Isaac, Tingle, Ghirahim, Pac-Man, MegaMan.

All good choices.

 

[MasterWarlord]

What if - are you ready for this, guys? - we added two newcomers from the Mario franchise?

This isn't as far of an impossibility as other people might think, but the way for it to happen is to make one of them Paper Mario and make him count for his own series. That seems to be the obvious way to keep everybody happy, and seems like something Sakurai would do IMO, especially with the new (terrible) game coming to 3DS.

. . .And no, I don't actually want this to happen. I'm not excited at the prospect of another Mario.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Sakurai himself is very stingy with adding more Mario characters, so at best we'll only see one. Arguably not counting the Donkey Kong, Yoshi, and Wario sub series.

(also how do you know Paper Mario: Sticker Star is going to be terrible if it hasn't been released yet?)

 

[Oasis_S]

This isn't as far of an impossibility as other people might think, but the way for it to happen is to make one of them Paper Mario and make him count for his own series. That seems to be the obvious way to keep everybody happy, and seems like something Sakurai would do IMO, especially with the new (terrible) game coming to 3DS.

Strange. You don't usually say dumb things.

 

[MasterWarlord]

(also how do you know Paper Mario: Sticker Star is going to be terrible if it hasn't been released yet?)

No partners, no experience, no badges, items required to attack, only 7 chapters. I assumed they would've learned to not experiment with these sorts of core gameplay changes after SPM.

Strange. You don't usually say dumb things.

I would not come into this thread if I wasn't expecting to get ripped to shreds. Tell me why I am wrong.

And yes, I put Paper Mario alongside another Mario character on my roster, but I don't think it's exactly guaranteed, to say the least. It's one of the very first cuts I'd make.

 

[Oasis_S]

Ah... Well... When you put it like that...

I've just always been annoyed when people say that they can solve all the problems by changing Paper's icon. It's like. No. That does not mean that now you can have both Toad and Paper. It is still BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that he's just a paper version of Mario. Paper Mario trophies were also with the REGULAR Mario ones, and it's not like Doc was given his own symbol either. I don't think there's anything to indicate that WOULD happen, and even if it did, it's not like Sakurai would pull a fast one over anybody. Everyone knows he's still a Mario character like Yoshi and Wario and junk. The only thing giving Paper his own symbol would do is give people hope that RAWK HAWK or something is the NEXT BEST character for the Paper Mario series. That's why people think Mona or Kamek have a shot.

I'M RANTING HERE, but the reason why Sakurai doesn't want a bunch of Mario and Pokemon characters is because variety is important for the roster. Mario doesn't get a pass just because it's the #1 series of all time. Having another Mario is not variety and changing his symbol is a Superficial Solution.

That's why I say Toad is better than Junior or Paper because he's not another Bowser or Mario. Which itself isn't the BEST reason, because Toad is SUPER BORING, so at the same time I don't really care if we get no new Mario character at all.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Ah... Well... When you put it like that...

I've just always been annoyed when people say that they can solve all the problems by changing Paper's icon. It's like. No. That does not mean that now you can have both Toad and Paper. It is still BLATANTLY OBVIOUS that he's just a paper version of Mario. Paper Mario trophies were also with the REGULAR Mario ones, and it's not like Doc was given his own symbol either. I don't think there's anything to indicate that WOULD happen, and even if it did, it's not like Sakurai would pull a fast one over anybody. Everyone knows he's still a Mario character like Yoshi and Wario and junk. The only thing giving Paper his own symbol would do is give people hope that RAWK HAWK or something is the NEXT BEST character for the Paper Mario series. That's why people think Mona or Kamek have a shot.

I'M RANTING HERE, but the reason why Sakurai doesn't want a bunch of Mario and Pokemon characters is because variety is important for the roster. Mario doesn't get a pass just because it's the #1 series of all time. Having another Mario is not variety and changing his symbol is a Superficial Solution.

That's why I say Toad is better than Junior or Paper because he's not another Bowser or Mario. Which itself isn't the BEST reason, because Toad is SUPER BORING, so at the same time I don't really care if we get no new Mario character at all.

Fair enough reasoning. I mainly believe Paper Mario has such a strong shot because of Sakurai's history of advertising - Roy and Lucario couldn't be more heavy of advertisements if you tried, and a 5th gen, Krom, and a horde of KI: Uprising characters are on the way for SSB4. That and Toon Link is already in, and 2 Marios makes more sense than 2 Links to me.

That and it's sort of a similar case to Zelda newcomers. You know how another Link is added largely due to lack of other, actually important Zelda chars? I feel this is a similar case. Bowser Jr. shows up a lot, but he's rather forgettable and unpopular. Waluigi and Toad just come across as unimportant, IMO. Paper Mario gets more credit because he can ride off of Mario, the same way Toon Link did.

Keep in mind, again, this is something that I in no way want to happen (I'm also predicting such beloved characters as Mii and Tingle), and I perfectly respect your own reasoning. The choice of Mario characters is among the toughest to definitively predict.

 

[Oasis_S]

I don't think Paper Mario would really work as an advertisement though? For one he doesn't even need it, and two his new game is going to be a few years old by the time Smash comes out. Though Paper Mario getting in the same way Toon Link did makes sense. Buuut I don't expect Toon Link to return, actually. Probably against better judgment, but now that we DO actually have a good Zelda character in Ghirahim, and the TOON style of LoZ will probably be abandoned on the 3DS, I think we'll see Ghirahim instead of Toon Link. I UNDERSTAND THAT'S A BIT ON THE IDEALISTIC SIDE.

SO, if I'm going to believe that Toon Link will be cut, I can't really support Paper Mario.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Frankly, I'd take Toon Link over Ghirahim, especially if the former can actually receive specials that are based on what the other Toon Links utilized; Gust Jar, Skull Hammer, Whip, etc..

 

[Oasis_S]

I'm surprised you haven't banned the making of Ghirahim threads, M&S.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Ghirahim is sort of a fad at the moment anyway in a similar vein to Vaati or Skull Kid. Unless he becomes a recurring antagonist from now on, don't have high hopes for him to be a playable character.

Although I do admit that his popularity is pretty high at the moment, so there might be an exception to the rule. Can't exactly guarantee anything at the moment though.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'm surprised you haven't banned the making of Ghirahim threads, M&S.

That would be very irresponsible for me to do something like that. While I don't like Ghirahim, he meets all the acceptable guidelines for having his own thread. So I basically just avoid posting there.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Ghirahim is sort of a fad at the moment anyway in a similar vein to Vaati or Skull Kid. Unless he becomes a recurring antagonist from now on, don't have high hopes for him to be a playable character.

Although I do admit that his popularity is pretty high at the moment, so there might be an exception to the rule. Can't exactly guarantee anything at the moment though.

I don't think either of those characters had the hate that Ghirahim has, though.

And besides, how much of a chance is there of us getting not only a big new Zelda title before SSB4, but one with Ghirahim in it? Ghirahim could be potentially referenced in any future game with how he was written, it won't necessarily be the next one that comes out. That's if he's lucky enough to recur at all.

 

[Oasis_S]

Haven't you been given power because you DESERVE it. Then don't you deserve to use that power in such a way as well. After all, it's just one thread. Who's going to know.

 

[yani]

I wonder if Sakurai was going to give Doc his own symbol in Brawl. Doc's stickers weren't with the Mario stickers. Gasp~

 

[FlareHabanero]

Well everyone's going to know, and then a massive war would last for centuries with lots of decimated orphanages and a nasty plague turning everyone into chicken zombies.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Well everyone's going to know, and then a massive war would last for centuries with lots of decimated orphanages and a nasty plague turning everyone into chicken zombies.

That would imply that we don't already have a massive war on our hands.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Haven't you been given power because you DESERVE it. Then don't you deserve to use that power in such a way as well. After all, it's just one thread. Who's going to know.

"With great power comes great responsibility." Anyway, if you want to continue this conversation, either PM me, or send me a visitor message, as I'm not continuing it here.

 

[Oasis_S]

YOU ARE THE DECIDERcaps.

 

[---]

Fair enough reasoning. I mainly believe Paper Mario has such a strong shot because of Sakurai's history of advertising - Roy and Lucario couldn't be more heavy of advertisements if you tried, and a 5th gen, Krom, and a horde of KI: Uprising characters are on the way for SSB4.

Sakurai added Roy because he interested him and was a good fit for Smash. Lucario was revealed back in early 05 (development of DP started in mid-late 04), DP itself came out 2 years before Brawl, which really isn't a promotion either (we didn't even find out about Lucario until the leak in Jan 08).

The only advertisments Sakurai has done was on the dojo when he said to check out Kid Icarus and Sin & Punishment for the VC.

That's not to say that a 5th Gen (Zoroark), Krom and Palutena don't stand a chance, but Sakurai doesn't add because of relevance or promotion.

 

[lordvaati]

yeah, I do think the whole"characters get in to Promote a game" excuse is stupid. Roy is pretty much the only character who fit that bill.

what,people are gonna say Olimar got in to promote a game that came out 4 years later? or Pit to promote a game that didn't exist yet?

 

[FlareHabanero]

But isn't Super Smash Bros. itself considered one glorified advertisement? So wouldn't that make every character, stage, trophy, sticker, have-at-you in a sense a promotional ploy for the varies franchises and games shown?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Frankly, I'd take Toon Link over Ghirahim, especially if the former can actually receive specials that are based on what the other Toon Links utilized; Gust Jar, Skull Hammer, Whip, etc..

Keep in mind, with what I said, Tingle nor Ghirahim(if either were added) would not ever replace Toon Link.

Also, unless Sakurai changes his mind, Toon/Young Link will forever have slightly different versions of Link's B moves for life.

@lordvaati: Roy was put in before Fire Emblem 6 existed, fyi. Him doing the same for Pit... makes a bit of sense. Roy debuted in Melee.

 

[Oasis_S]

HyperFalcon thinks games only come into existence on the day of their release.

 

[MasterWarlord]

Sakurai added Roy because he interested him and was a good fit for Smash. Lucario was revealed back in early 05 (development of DP started in mid-late 04), DP itself came out 2 years before Brawl, which really isn't a promotion either (we didn't even find out about Lucario until the leak in Jan 08).

Even according to these bullet points you linked, this is during the period where Sakurai is specifically looking for clones. Yes, Roy was considered more different for his fire, but you generally at least want a clone to have -something- to differentiate them from the base. It also says in those bullet points that Wolf was rejected for Falco because he looked too much like Fox, but he was added later in Brawl anyway. Now, this is conjecture, but doesn't it also sound like it would be kind of rude of Sakurai to not include Roy after the developers show him the new Fire Emblem? After all, it's just a worthless clone slot, and it does help to advertise.

As for Lucario, isn't it confirmed that the Pokemon Company specifically called him up and told him to include him? Sakurai himself seems to value the 1st gen, otherwise he wouldn't put a new 1st gen rep (Pokemon Trainer) when the original games are so old.

 

[lordvaati]

^Pichu disagrees. also Pichu was gthe poke I believe got in by request, but not to promote GSC it was because it was masuda's favorite Poke at the time.

 

[MasterWarlord]

^Pichu disagrees. also Pichu was gthe poke I believe got in by request, but not to promote GSC it was because it was masuda's favorite Poke at the time.

Disagrees with what? Be more specific.

 

[lordvaati]

he's Gen 2. whereas you said Sakurai mostly only used Gen 1 but Lucario was an exception.

 

[Starphoenix]

he's Gen 2. whereas you said Sakurai mostly only used Gen 1 but Lucario was an exception.

I think "mostly" is the key word.

 

[MasterWarlord]

he's Gen 2. whereas you said Sakurai mostly only used Gen 1 but Lucario was an exception.

Ah. Well, didn't you just say yourself that Sakurai was apparently called to put in Pichu. . .?

That and it was for a clone slot. I guess he could've cloned Pikachu into Raichu, but Raichu is about as relevant to things as Arcanine or Golduck. Jigglypuff and Mewtwo don't lend themselves too well to clones (The later largely because of how many tail attacks Sakurai decided to give him for whatever reason).

 

[FlareHabanero]

Jigglypuff and Mewtwo don't lend themselves too well to clones (The former largely because of how many tail attacks Sakurai decided to give him for whatever reason).

Ether I'm reading this wrong, or you're saying that Jigglypuff somehow has tail attacks. If that's the case, then how would that even work to begin with?

...Actually I understand you meant to say that Mewtwo has the attacks, but it just felt a tad funny to mention anyway. But I do agree that the tail attacks were kind of over played for a character like Mewtwo, which kind of made the character awkward in practice.