Meta Rosalina Match-Up Analysis R2 - Yoshi

[Planty]

Don't get me wrong, I agree that usmash is one of the most feared moves in the game, but I have tried many times to beat his fair and dair with usmash. No, it doesn't beat his fair (nor his dair). Yes, you can attempt to usmash on reaction and yes, you can start the move in time to possibly hit him. But it almost never happens. The massive disjoints on his fair and dair just eat through it.

Why does hitting Yoshi's nose during his fair not hit him? He doesn't have invincibility on it, as I just looked up. Weird.

I'm able to consistently upsmash Yoshi out of his Fair. I find that if you move forward a bit, you usually end up under him and you hit him there. And you're also going to want to upsmash out of reaction and hit him before the hitbox on his Fair becomes active.

If I'm able to do it consistently against many different Yoshis, then it's possible.

Yoshi baits and punishes the usmash with any fast move, like DA. This isn't a Yoshi exclusive thing. Any character can do that. If her usmash was safe, she would be absolutely overpowered.

But from the air if he were to bait it with a jump, he would just standard b us at the conclusion, or fair. Our usmash isn't lagless you know.

Upsmash is done off reaction. As soon as he starts pulling his nose back, you upsmash. He can't bait it from the ground unless you have the reaction speed of a 500 year old man... But from the air it's still difficult to bait it. How would he go about doing it?

But again, you should not be getting baited. It's done purely off reaction. It's really easy once you get the hang of it.

And about the egg lay, it's kinda useless since Luma can just protect you.

Yeah, you're probably right about this. Problem is he doesn't need to kill Luma because his aerials just wreck it.

Covered this. You beat his aerials.

We have one answer to egg camping and that DAing under it. I suppose you could just shield and wait it out but that assumes your opponent is impatient. Egg camping is why Yoshi dominates neutral against Rosalina. She's a massive target and it's difficult to dodge them. Gravity pull is not some insane "YOUR PROJECTILES ARE NOW USELESS MWAHAHAHAHA" option. It can take some pressure off but it's just a crutch here.

Powershield, walk forward, repeat. There's a reason you can't find tournament Yoshis just sitting there tossing eggs for 5 minutes. And if he's throwing the eggs in the air, it's even easier to get past them. And don't forget that eggs have endlag. Just practice powershielding and you'll be fine. (And you'll also have an answer to pretty much all projectiles in the game except like... Villager's Fair...

I hate to take a shot like this, but have you actually played any good Yoshis? Who in their right mind does nothing but grab and dash attack other than noobish Falcon players.

Hit and run fairs are safe on shield and his standard b is definitely a viable grab option, even if it is a bit punishable on a whiff. Yoshi is heavy and nearly ungimpable. He can afford to make mistakes. His standard b is also much faster than his normal grab.

But even then, shielding his DA every time is going to get you grabbed (and unless the shield is at full strength it doesn't cover the Luma). It doesn't matter how ****ty Yoshi's grab is, he can still grab. It's still an option, and you can't rule it out just because it's not amazing like the rest of his moveset.

Lastly, he can fair into jab. You'll see good Yoshis do it. Not all the time, because it can be shield grabbed, but you have to watch out for that too. It's an option Yoshi has and it's very strong.

Ya I admit I simplified this quite a bit. I'll change my original post to show that you need to have a few mixups in there. But if you do get grabbed? Oh no 10%!!! He doesn't get much out of it.

His DA doesn't cheese Luma kills like Falcon's does, but he can still kill a Luma with it if we're decently close to the edge.

Fair beats the tilts, except possibly dtilt because Rosalina ducks. Admittingly, I haven't tried to space against him with dtilt because he's usually in the air, but also because...

None of that matters when you consider this: eggs eggs eggs. If he sees we're going for tilts, he just throws eggs. We have one punish for that and tilts are not it. Eggs are his answer for almost every situation in neutral outside of gravity pull, which gives Yoshi stage control. Saying that Rosalina comes remotely close to winning neutral is hogwash because of those eggs.

I'll try to let off some steam here so I think clearly. I think Yoshi deserves to have such an amazing projectile in the eggs. It's his aerials I can't stand.

So let's simplify Yoshi to 4 tactics. (I'm pretty sure I'm not forgetting things here. If I am then tell me.)

First is an aerial approach.
Second is a grounded approach.
Third is egg camping.
Fourth is poking at you with tilts.

I've covered aerial approach. Upsmash beats all his aerials. I have no idea why it doesn't work for you.
I've covered grounded approach. He will rarely grab. But you have to use a few mixups too.
Eggs aren't actually hard to get by.
He can't poke at you with tilts because you have more range.

I'll tell you about a time that I faced a Yoshi who was better than me, yet I ended up beating him. He started up with a few Fairs. My answer to that was upsmash. That taught him to not jump in neutral. The next thing he resorted to was egg camping. I was easily able to get around them and punish him. He still used a few eggs, but much less.(We later played a match with customs, and shooting star bit made him abandon ALL eggs entirely.) That left him with just his ground options. He didn't even try to use his tilts just because he was so outranged. So what's left for him to do? DA and grab mixups. I shielded a few DA then when I suspected him to go for the grab, I would spot dodge or Dair or D-tilt. And it was just that a bunch of times over and over. If he thought I would jump, he would running upsmash or sometimes Nair, but I made sure not to be predictable with jumps. I ended up winning just because Rosalina beats many of Yoshi's options in neutral.

Yoshi's mobility and floatiness, and as the last line of defense, his DJ armor, make him impossible to combo. Just because random FG noobs keep trying to use his priority to beat yours at the worst possible places (down b'ing into uair, anyone?) doesn't make that the standard. Careful Yoshis use their mobility to create space.

Yay for super armor? He still takes the damage. And his DJ goes so high that he can't attack you if you're below him when he uses it. And we don't do Sheik combos. We just juggle. If he jumps, he just puts himself in the same place he'd be otherwise. And we're faster on the ground than he is in the air, so just follow him from there to juggle. It's annoying and a bit harder, but we could make it work.

Dead wrong. Well, not entirely. If he just runs off, yes, it's awkward. If Yoshi jumps off the stage backwards, it's trivial.

If Yoshi is standing with his back to the ledge, recover more horizontally. And with customs, launch star plus just eliminates the threat of a spike altogether. It is a minor detail though.

 

[Kaishin]

So, I've started to think that this is a matchup that changes very, very greatly over wifi, even with players with good connections. I could never seem to beat fair with usmash online, but offline it seemed doable. The best Yoshi is SC will be at a tournament in 8 days. I'm going to fight him and talk about this more then.

 

[murdey]

I feel like I have to be more aggressive in this matchup (as rosa) because if I try to play defensively eggs rain on me and kill luma. I think it forces a different mindset.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Yoshi is being analyzed again for this week. If you have anything to contribute for the match-up, especially in regards to the newest software update, this is the place to do it.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Hey there - Yoshi main here, responding to Mario & Sonic Guy 's request for input. There are no less than three Rosies in our local playgroup, so this happens to be a matchup I know well.

In my opinion, I consider this a "volatile" 50:50. What that means will make sense in a minute.

@Ritronaut has a pretty good analysis already, so I don't want to repeat what he's said. The only thing I disagree with is, frankly, the same thing I disagree with any time I hear or see a Rosie say Yoshi has the advantage; You guys underestimate your own strength when we're above you.

Your Uair out-prioritizes everything we have. That shuts down a lot of options - Dair is more difficult to hit, ground pound is useless... All we can do is try to outmaneuver you and get it back to neutral. That also means platforms are very dangerous for us if you're under them.

Luma is also a huge pain for us. It interrupts our combos, and in the air it causes us a ton of problems. While we do have great aerial movement, you guys have strong anti-air options that force us to change our approach. There are almost zero moves between us that trade - somebody always out-prioritizes the other, and who has that advantage is usually based on position.

One thing that's been a real pain for me, personally, is your Nair approach. There's an opponent I face often who utilizes this, and I can find no way to punish it - it even out-ranges our grab. Any time I see it coming, I feel my only option is the back off and cede stage advantage, run under and try for a Uair (usually doesn't work if my opponent is playing careful enough, all you have to do is pull back on your jump and it'll hit me) or try to respond with a retreating Fair - I know it's never going to hit anything other than shield since it has so little end lag, but that's often all I can hope to gain unless I wait and read the landing response - but in this case, a smart Rosie player has the opportunity to retreat and reset to neutral, so nothing gained and nothing lost.

Bottom line, for every strength on one side, there is also a weakness to match. We both counter each other, but not entirely. This is a MU that's even, but you need to understand it well because it requires more precision - that goes for both sides.

 

[Planty]

One thing that's been a real pain for me, personally, is your Nair approach. There's an opponent I face often who utilizes this, and I can find no way to punish it - it even out-ranges our grab. Any time I see it coming, I feel my only option is the back off and cede stage advantage, run under and try for a Uair (usually doesn't work if my opponent is playing careful enough, all you have to do is pull back on your jump and it'll hit me) or try to respond with a retreating Fair - I know it's never going to hit anything other than shield since it has so little end lag, but that's often all I can hope to gain unless I wait and read the landing response - but in this case, a smart Rosie player has the opportunity to retreat and reset to neutral, so nothing gained and nothing lost.

If you're already in the air moving towards Rosa, just wavebounce your neutral-B. Simple as that. You get a free Luma kill of it too (usually). A simple egg toss works too. If you're on the ground, then U-smash/U-tilt.

I think Rosalina's Nair is nearly useless in this MU. At least it is most of the time in neutral. Rosalina should only ever approach Yoshi if he's just egg camping, at which point she shouldn't jump-in with Nair for an approach anyway.

 

[The Wall]

-1 for Rosa without customs, 0 with customs.

Without customs Rosa doesn't have the proper range to stop Yoshi from getting in. Once yoshi gets in, well timed jabs and full hop nairs basically make us unpunishable while getting free damage or a kill onto Luma. Once Luma is out of the picture, the hunt beings. It's a lot easier to throw out grabs then, the Neutral B becomes a lot more useful because we don't have to worry about being knocked away by Luma while you're in the egg, etc.

Any good Yoshi who is throwing eggs out in the air knows how to control their momentum as such to avoid attacks. If you try to swoop under and get an attack off during egg throw you're more likely going to miss us than hit. That allows us to come down with up air/nair/bair. Also just the fact that if we dair your shield and hit luma with it, luma is dead with the next dash attack which also can cross up for a good mix up.

That's all the good Yoshi stuff, but Rosa is still a fantastic character. Despite being 7 foot 12 and light, her hitboxes are pretty damn good and she has obvious massive kill power with Luma. A proper Rosa will know what %'s certain attacks will knock Yoshi out of our DJ armor. They will know as well that the only way Yoshi can ledge snap is with down b, so it's not hard to position a bair stage spike or hit a down air for the spike.